PFDs required when wading and swimming?

[ILikeRust]

Yes, if you're on certain rivers in King County, Washington.

"Swimmers or people wading more than 5 feet from shore or in water more than 4 feet deep would also have to wear life vests."

[Ian McColgin]

Hate to say it but this bit of idiocy appears to have passed on a straight party-line vote with the D's lining up foresquare for mandatory PFDs.

[pcford]

Hate to say it but this bit of idiocy appears to have passed on a straight party-line vote with the D's lining up foresquare for mandatory PFDs.

Several people were killed last year in the Green River Gorge...it's not some placid punkass New England stream.

[Ian McColgin]

I've been in big water in the Pacific Northwest and other places, just as I've been in the incredibly dangerous rips off Chatham and Provincetown where there are drownings of people who thought they were just walking along the shore but the current eroded their footing and before they knew it they were transported from ankle deep to off-shore. I'd not trivialize the risk. Just not convinced I'd pass a PFD law about it.

[ILikeRust]

Several people were killed last year in the Green River Gorge...it's not some placid punkass New England stream.

Then why don't they just ban wading and swimming on those stretches of river? If the goal is to make sure nobody gets killed, that seems a surer way. People have been killed while wearing PFDs. Also easier to enforce. If you're in the water, you're in violation.

[orbb]

Then why don't they just ban wading and swimming on those stretches of river? If the goal is to make sure nobody gets killed, that seems a surer way. People have been killed while wearing PFDs. Also easier to enforce. If you're in the water, you're in violation.

I agree with this. If these areas are that dangerous, then all a PFD is going to do is help keep the body afloat for later recovery.

[BBSebens]

It seems they are well intentioned. Its just not the best way to address the issue.

[Brian Palmer]

Then why don't they just ban wading and swimming on those stretches of river? If the goal is to make sure nobody gets killed, that seems a surer way. People have been killed while wearing PFDs. Also easier to enforce. If you're in the water, you're in violation.

That may present a problem if the state's constitution establishes a public right to use public waters. The county may not have the legal authority to "close" a river to public use.

Personally, I've seen areas on some rivers (e.g., Bull Sluice rapid on the Chattooga River in GA) where park rangers have had to stand by while all sorts of idiots try to "win" a Darwin award because they don't have the authority to do something. I am talking about a couple of guys going over a class V rapid in a kiddy pool with no PFDs.

Brian

[Nicholas Carey]

A bit silly, but it's a temporary "emergency ordinance" that expires this October.

• http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ejacket20.html
• http://www.seattlepi.com/local/artic...rs-1432255.php

The rationale is that because of the bizarre, cold, wet spring we've had, the melt is much later than normal. In May, there was as much as 65 feet of snow pack up in the Cascades So we've got a lot of melt coming down with concomitant high water levels and flows, cold temperatures, log jams, etc. The high flows have been rearranging the river beds as well, so places that used to be good for swimming aren't necessarily so.

That being said, most of the drowning deaths on these rivers are people doing stupid things, usually when the water's high and the river is running at full tilt, often while drunk, high or both.

[Binnacle Bat]

I'm sorry, but if you are wearing a PFD, are you "swimming"? To me swimming is a few ounces of nylon keeping you "decent", and waving your arms and kicking your feet to keep your nose and mouth occasionally above water.

A few weeks ago I capsized (first sail of the season, not enough reefs to go to windward in the breeze at the time). I was wearing a PFD, and had the damnedest time trying to "swim" around the stern to stand on the centerboard and right her. Mainsheets etc. kept fouling on the back of the PFD. Very unsettling.

Allan

Every time I tried to duck under the mainsheet, the back of the PFD fouled on the sheet or something. Started to get worried. Finally made it, but decided, that time at least, I would have been better off without the damned PFD. I'm not a good swimmer, but good enough to swim under things, which is damned hard with a PDF on.

For the kind of sailing I do (thistles and sunfish mostly) I'd never get an auto inflating one, as they are expensive to recharge, and 99 times out of a 100 or more, I wouldn't want it to go off. (Yes I've capsized more than 100 times in the last 50 years, so it's not a moot statistic). Can't think of a time I got wet that I was significantly better off with a PFD on than not, nor a time I wasn't wearing one when I wished I was.

I still wear one most times it's "interesting", on the off chance the boom cold cocks me and I can't fend for myself.

Still, in the end, if you tried to outlaw stupidity, the prisons would be five times as full as they are now.

[stevebla]

Freedom is a grand thing. We have to many laws on all levels.

[ahp]

How Safe do we want to be? If we really want to be safe, erect chain link fences along all waterfronts, including beaches.

[BBSebens]

This happened the same day. dammit.

Green River rafters sucked under log jam, swim to shore safely

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

That may present a problem if the state's constitution establishes a public right to use public waters. The county may not have the legal authority to "close" a river to public use.

Personally, I've seen areas on some rivers (e.g., Bull Sluice rapid on the Chattooga River in GA) where park rangers have had to stand by while all sorts of idiots try to "win" a Darwin award because they don't have the authority to do something. I am talking about a couple of guys going over a class V rapid in a kiddy pool with no PFDs.

Brian

I've posted about this before. In early '96 Tommy Hearns an Olympic whitewater canoeist was ticketed by the National Park police for failure to obey their order to get off the river.
One small problem. The river is MARYLAND property. And a MD official testified that they don't "CLOSE" the river. Of course the NPP made fools of themselves rushing down the hillside and falling in to the water to arrest him. What Mar-oons.

[Brian Palmer]

I've posted about this before. In early '96 Tommy Hearns an Olympic whitewater canoeist was ticketed by the National Park police for failure to obey their order to get off the river.
One small problem. The river is MARYLAND property. And a MD official testified that they don't "CLOSE" the river. Of course the NPP made fools of themselves rushing down the hillside and falling in to the water to arrest him. What Mar-oons.

I remember reading about that, but it was David Hearn. The Potomac was in flood and there was a huge glassy wave that he said just "called to him" to surf. He was still surfing it while the park police were trying to get him off the river.

Brian

[ahp]

In my opinion the forces of law do have an obligation to warn a person if they are doing something really stupid or dangerous. If they are adults, and they ignore the warning, leave them be. Let them remove themselves from the gene pool. If it involves children, it is another matter.

[jak3b]

Ultimately this has less to do with the governments concern for our safety as it does insureance liability.How many people die every year using alcohol?,ciggarrettes,poisand by food?.My god should be allowed to use our mouths without proper guards and a certificate saying I am qualified to use it?.Licenced motorist,wearing seatbelts,kill thousands every year,Tens of thousands.Wheres the outrage?,the rightious indignation for the poor children who burn up in some idiots road rage episode?.There billions of dollars behind,alcohol,autos and fast food making sure nothing gets in the way of commerce.

[Lew Barrett]

Oh and pcford,youguys in Seattle need to get over yourselves and how tough you are.Go spend a winter in Maine.

Don't include me. I'm a pussy. And I think it's an invasive if not pointless rule in any case.

[jak3b]

Don't include me. I'm a pussy. And I think it's an invasive if not pointless rule in any case.

Sorry Lew tried to edit it our right after I posted it.It was a snarky comment.I LOVE Seattle by the way,Great waterfront city, great food and very cool people.I was there in 1997 during the worst blizzard they had in 30 years.It snowed about 9 inches,looking out the window of the Camlin hotel I thought "this looks just like Boston".

[Lew Barrett]

I'm fine with your comment, Jak. I probably captured it right before your deletion, for which I have nothing to offer except.....Got cha'!

I took it as a bit of a jibe but a perfectly legit one. You are dead straight about those Maine winters, and our crabbers have little up on Maine's lobstermen (or women). I suspect Pat was sort of in jest as well. Neither of these northern coasts are real friendly in the wrong circumstances.

I'm still a pussy......

[Ancient Mariner]

at times I think common sense is gradually being eroded...

it seems everywhere I go there are warning signs. Recently I was aboard a new tug here in Vancouver,
the engineer was pointing out the latest signs..duck your head, do this do that..
a nearby Canyon has wire fence, signs and occasional security to try and prevent the annual deaths of kids jumping into the river

I agree that a great deal of this issue is fear of lawsuits and the "cover your butt" attitude

The consequences are not good.

A local School District was sued by a parent who broke her ankle while on a fieldtrip skating...do you think classes go skating anymore?
Climbing apparatus has been removed from many gyms throughout the province
Fieldtrips are becoming a thing of the past

Our son grew up on the water and romping thru the forests.
My wife taught me that letting our son fall and recover on his own was important. We adopted that attitude to include more than taking physical risks.
We used to get calls from the school saying how dirty he was...we assured the callers that he left home clean.

Currently he co owns a Commercial Diving Company @ 30. without a broken bone or stitch in his body.
Hopefully the grandsons will do the same

Knock on wood

[the_gr8t_waldo]

please don't forget that when one of these waders dissappears, it's the civil employees that are called out and have to search under evey log jam and snag downstream, often augmented with volunteers. it's not all that safer for them, either!

[ILikeRust]

Here's an interesting development that seems apropos to this discussion.

Had he been wearing a PFD, he might still be with us.

[Nicholas Carey]

Here's an interesting development that seems apropos to this discussion.

Had he been wearing a PFD, he might still be with us.

How do you "fall off a sandbar"? Inquiring minds want to know.

Warsaw, VA (1140wrva.com) The body of a 13 year-old Boy Scout has been recovered from the Rappahannock River after he fell into the water before noon Saturday near Suggetts Point. The body of Caleb Smith of White Stone was found Sunday around 11:45am within 50 feet of where he disappeared.

Chief Greg Baker of Richmond County Emergency Services says witnesses saw the boy fall off of a sandbar into the river, and that he was swept along and under by the tide. A group of adults there made an initial rescue attempt using a canoe, but were unsuccessful.

An ensuing rescue/recovery effort involving agencies from the federal, state and local government levels, as well as some volunteers, went on well into the evening before being suspended for the day Saturday, and then resumed Sunday. The boy had been with other members of his boy scout troop (215 from Lancaster County) for a weekend outing at the river.

Read more: http://www.1140wrva.com/cc-common/ne...#ixzz1QVQdmAD6

It would seem that the prophylactic wearing of PFDs might be a bit over the top: should PFDs be worn just because you're near the water?

[ILikeRust]

The story I've heard on the local radio is that the Boy Scouts were wading in the river - I think they were picking up trash for a merit badge or something - and were walking on sandbars in the river. Apparently, the sandbar dropped of sharply, and he stepped back too far, and slipped off the edge of the sandbar.

[Brian Palmer]

I've seen sandbars that have dropped off like that on the Wisconsin River, and also in tidal inlets along the Gulf coast. Imagine a "sand dune" moving downstream with a sharp lip at the downstream edge. The water can drop off from a few inches to many feet quite suddenly. Furthermore, the water flowing over the bar is going straight down on the downstream end, the same as if it was going over a low-head dam, so it will pull you down with it.

Brian

[ahp]

There is another consideration. If you fall into deep water and you are a non swimmer, and are not wearing a life jacket, you are probably going to die. On the other hand if you are a swimmer and you fall in, you will probably get back ok without a jacket. But, how fast can you swim with a life jacket. You might not get back at all. Most lap swimmers my age, 79, swim about one mph for 1000 yds or more, and can do two to three times that in a sprint. With a life jacket I doubt I could do 0.25 mph at best.