Atkin Little Peter

[P-man]

Is anyone familiar with this design or something similar? do you think it might make a good boat for learning to sail? http://www.atkinboatplans.com/

thanks.

[johngsandusky]

I haven't sailed anything like her, but I taught myself to sail in an 11' daggerboard dink that I built. I do like the design. It's best to learn sailing in warm shallow water not far from shore. It's also good to start in gentle breezes. If you build one, tell us all about it.

[johngsandusky]

I also think there is an Atkin boat forum on yahoo, someone there might have one or similar.

[Thorne]

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...s-LIttle-Peter

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-this-design&

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...g-garvey-plans

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Mule-quot-Sail

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ltimate-Dinghy

[P-man]

thanks Thorne. i guess i should have done my own search.

[JimD]

Its a multi role punt that will row better than it sails, and take a small outboard as well. So if you've got a hankering to build a boat and you're not quite sure what it'll end up getting used for most of the time it might be a good choice. On the other hand if you're set on sailing then there are better designs out there.

Selway Fisher Skylark series:



http://www.selway-fisher.com/Skylarkup13.htm

[Nicholas Scheuer]

I learned to row in a boat very similar at Boy Scout Camp. They were lightly constructed in Plywood, with two rowing thwarts. They had slightly smaller bow transoms, but otherwise very similar.

We would try to get our Scout Master to go out with two or three of us "Sprouts". He had sailed small boats in Boston Harbor as a boy, and knew a thing or two about rowing; like how to keep an oar in the Davis Rowlocks. All that stood me well when we cruised a Dovekie having no motor.

Moby Nick

[Rob Hazard]

In one of Roger Taylor's books he describes learning to sail in a punt like this without a rudder. It was a brainchild of his father's. Tacking involved stepping forward and around the mast, as I recall.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

For learning to sail a boat with no rudder and no daggerboard/centerboard does not look ideal to me. I only learned to sail about 5 years ago. I used a book to learn the rudiments and then went out and made every mistake possible till I started getting the range. So I think it essential for learners to pick a standard, well equipt design so that when things go wrong you know it's your fault and not some quirk of the boat's.
Also, if you are choosing a boat to learn to sail why pick one with a cross-planked bottom that will be a maintainence headache for years to come.

[SScoville]

I really dig the design. It has a centerboard, but it's not shown in the drawing above. You could use ply for the bottom or everything. The topsides are batten-seam construction.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I really dig the design. It has a centerboard, but it's not shown in the drawing above. You could use ply for the bottom or everything. The topsides are batten-seam construction.

I perused the plan offering and I couldn't even find the beam measurement. And there's nothing in the text about a centerboard. I can't see advising someone to spend money on a set of plans that are so ill documented in theplan offering.
A Mirror Dinghy looks like a scapel compared to Little Peter.
I suggest to P-Man that if he wants to boogie on the wide expanses of Guntersville Lake or ther Tennessee river he should look for something a little more modern. Like a vee-bottom, a daggerboard, a rudder, built in floatation and all plywood construction.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I had a john boat/ punt with a sail as a young kid. It had leeboards, and despite a lack of really hot sailing ability, it had wonderful stability, and it had an outboard mount, and rowed tolerably well, which is what I did with it most of the time. Punts are a great design for family use. Very forgiving, but it comes at a cost that some purists won't pay. I still have great memories of all the uses that boat got.

[P-man]

from the Atkin website:

"The overall length is 12 feet 2 inches including the parts of the stem and stern which extend beyond stations A and S; the water-line length is 9 feet 3 1/2 inches; the breadth outside the sheer mouldings, 3 feet 10 inches; and the draft with centerboard up is 4 inches."

Thanks for your thoughts Chuck, but I'm not worried about the documentation of a plan from Atkin. i would probably use plywood on the bottom, or maybe cold molded double diagonal. i suppose it wouldn't be hard to switch to a rudder also.

JimD, the selway-fisher is nice, but i'd rather not build in s&g.

the idea of one boat for rowing, motoring and sailing is appealing. good initial stability is also important to me. i've never sailed before, but would like to be able to give it a try.

thanks everybody for your thoughts.

[michigangeorge]

One of the boats I often borrowed when learning to sail was very much like Little Peter but with a full foredeck back to the mast partners. It was a heavily planked hull which gave this hull shape the weight needed to punch through the rough bay I was sailing on.
You will want lots of floatation so you do not need to be so timid about capsize - it speeds up the learning process to know how far you can push the boat. Centerboard and conventional rudder of course. Plywood bottom and batten seam topside planks would be good construction. You are correct in trusting the Atkin plans.

[P-man]

i've been working on a model.













almost ready for bottom planking. i've learned a few things about how difficult it is to work on a scale level and some things about the design. the chine's been the most difficult piece to fit so far.

[SScoville]

Cool! How wide does the lower topside strake need to be? I think I lofted the boat 1/4 scale and felt it would be hard to find a board wide enough to fit.

[P-man]

thanks. the bottom strake on my model scales out to about 9" wide, but i've introduced enough errors into the build to have some doubts. i probably could have done a better job of locating the seam batten to even out the width of the strakes. working on it has been a lot more fun than the plastic models i did as a kid.

[chris nova]

That's neat P-man. I know alot of people advocate starting with models and say they learn from it. Seems like going small has its own challenges, not sure my fingers were made to deal with tiny parts! When I was a kid my grandfather carved me a boat of sorts from an old piece of redwood bark. It's always been a great keepsake.

[SScoville]

thanks. the bottom strake on my model scales out to about 9" wide, but i've introduced enough errors into the build to have some doubts. i probably could have done a better job of locating the seam batten to even out the width of the strakes. working on it has been a lot more fun than the plastic models i did as a kid.

But if you were using say a piece of cedar, how wide would it need to be to cut the plank from? It looked like to me it might take a 14" wide board.

[jalmberg]

from the Atkin website:

"The overall length is 12 feet 2 inches including the parts of the stem and stern which extend beyond stations A and S; the water-line length is 9 feet 3 1/2 inches; the breadth outside the sheer mouldings, 3 feet 10 inches; and the draft with centerboard up is 4 inches."

Thanks for your thoughts Chuck, but I'm not worried about the documentation of a plan from Atkin. i would probably use plywood on the bottom, or maybe cold molded double diagonal. i suppose it wouldn't be hard to switch to a rudder also.

JimD, the selway-fisher is nice, but i'd rather not build in s&g.

the idea of one boat for rowing, motoring and sailing is appealing. good initial stability is also important to me. i've never sailed before, but would like to be able to give it a try.

thanks everybody for your thoughts.

Don't discount the cross-planked bottom until you do some research on it. It sounds like a wacky idea that won't hold water, but in fact it's a pretty robust way to build a bottom, particularly if it will live in the water all summer. If it will be in and out, you can add splines.

Check out this post by a very experience builder, and fellow Atkin lover (there are a bunch of us around):

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...28#post3332528

Nothing wrong with steering with an oar, either. In fact, I think Pete Culler, or someone of his generation, said you should start by learning how to steer with an oar. I forget the logic, but the idea was probably something like, if your tiller breaks, you'll know how to steer with an oar. The guy who doesn't know, probably doesn't have oars, anyway, and will have to call Sea Tow.

Build the boat that makes YOUR heart go wow. When you ask for advice on boat selection, what you mainly get is people telling you what makes THEIR hearts go wow. That's great for them, but it's a lot easier to build a boat that gets YOU excited.

[P-man]

But if you were using say a piece of cedar, how wide would it need to be to cut the plank from? It looked like to me it might take a 14" wide board.

sorry, SScoville, i misunderstood your question. yes, a 14" wide board would be about right.

[P-man]

Don't discount the cross-planked bottom until you do some research on it. It sounds like a wacky idea that won't hold water, but in fact it's a pretty robust way to build a bottom, particularly if it will live in the water all summer. If it will be in and out, you can add splines.

Check out this post by a very experience builder, and fellow Atkin lover (there are a bunch of us around):

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...28#post3332528

Nothing wrong with steering with an oar, either. In fact, I think Pete Culler, or someone of his generation, said you should start by learning how to steer with an oar. I forget the logic, but the idea was probably something like, if your tiller breaks, you'll know how to steer with an oar. The guy who doesn't know, probably doesn't have oars, anyway, and will have to call Sea Tow.

Build the boat that makes YOUR heart go wow. When you ask for advice on boat selection, what you mainly get is people telling you what makes THEIR hearts go wow. That's great for them, but it's a lot easier to build a boat that gets YOU excited.

thanks, jalmberg. yeah, i've had several ideas about the bottom. if i build full size, i won't use plywood. i'd prefer not to have any plywood in it. i was wondering if i made the planks very narrow (1-1.5" or so) and epoxied encapsulated them, epoxied them to each other, then fastened the bottom to the chines with something like polysulfide and SB screws, that might work. what do you think? as you said, splines have been used in this application for years and would also be fine.

thanks for the link. i've been following JMadison's "Maid" thread from the beginning and loving every minute of it. i may just build a "fleet" of scale model Atkin designs.

[jalmberg]

thanks, jalmberg. yeah, i've had several ideas about the bottom. if i build full size, i won't use plywood. i'd prefer not to have any plywood in it. i was wondering if i made the planks very narrow (1-1.5" or so) and epoxied encapsulated them, epoxied them to each other, then fastened the bottom to the chines with something like polysulfide and SB screws, that might work. what do you think? as you said, splines have been used in this application for years and would also be fine.

thanks for the link. i've been following JMadison's "Maid" thread from the beginning and loving every minute of it. i may just build a "fleet" of scale model Atkin designs.

<sorry... didn't take your meaning the first time>

So, you mean like a strip-planked bottom. It would probably work, but with strip planking, I think you just glue the edges together. No point in encapsulating the whole strip, since the first time you pull it up on some rocks, it will scratch, water will get in, the strips will expand, crack the epoxy, let more water in...

That's why people start putting glass over the epoxy, and then rub strips to protect the glass, and... It gets complicated.

Iain Oughtred told me personally that epoxy and lumber don't mix easily. You have to really be careful with that mixture. That's why glued lapstrake is *always* done with plywood. Ply is dimensionally stable and won't tear the epoxy apart. Usually.

[P-man]

That's neat P-man. I know alot of people advocate starting with models and say they learn from it. Seems like going small has its own challenges, not sure my fingers were made to deal with tiny parts! When I was a kid my grandfather carved me a boat of sorts from an old piece of redwood bark. It's always been a great keepsake.

thanks chris. going small definitely has its own challenges. i'd like to be building full size, but back and hip problems make working in the shop difficult. i can still work an hour or so at the drafting table and can even do some things propped up in bed, so scale models will have to satisfy my building desires for now.

[P-man]

<sorry... didn't take your meaning the first time>

So, you mean like a strip-planked bottom. It would probably work, but with strip planking, I think you just glue the edges together. No point in encapsulating the whole strip, since the first time you pull it up on some rocks, it will scratch, water will get in, the strips will expand, crack the epoxy, let more water in...

That's why people start putting glass over the epoxy, and then rub strips to protect the glass, and... It gets complicated.

Iain Oughtred told me personally that epoxy and lumber don't mix easily. You have to really be careful with that mixture. That's why glued lapstrake is *always* done with plywood. Ply is dimensionally stable and won't tear the epoxy apart. Usually.

good points, thanks. well my model is being cross planked per the plans and if i do build full size, there's a good chance i'll heed Mr. Atkin's advice and "stick to the plans", probably adding splines as Mr Madison did with his barrow boat. if i were going to try the strip plank idea, i would probably put some rub strips on the bottom to minimize damage from rocks, etc. in fact, rub strips might be a good idea either way.

[jalmberg]

That's what I would do, especially after seeing that barrow boat. Simple, light, tough, and easy to repair (as long as you bed the planks with Dolphinite, and not epoxy!) And no mucking with toxic chemicals.

What more could you ask for?

[P-man]

a few new photos:













i noticed in one picture i managed to distort the sheer quite a bit. i'll have to go back and redo a couple of frames to try and smooth it out.

[P-man]

i think the sheer looks a little better. i used that little Stanley trim plane for most of my final shaping work.

before:



after:

[Mad Scientist]

About the cross-planked bottom...there was a thread about a similar boat, and it was mentioned that the seams between the planks at the ends always leak, because the planks aren't fully immersed, so don't swell up completely.

Hardly a fatal flaw, especially in such a sweet design.

Tom

ETA: Previously discussed in post #20, which I obviously didn't read carefully enough.

[P-man]

About the cross-planked bottom...there was a thread about a similar boat, and it was mentioned that the seams between the planks at the ends always leak, because the planks aren't fully immersed, so don't swell up completely.

Hardly a fatal flaw, especially in such a sweet design.

Tom

JMadison used cedar splines on the cross planked bottom of his barrow boat. that should help with this problem. i decided not to model the splines.

[Willin']

It's pretty tough to appreciate a sheer line in plan view. Could you give us a before and after elevation?

Nice work, btw.

[P-man]

It's pretty tough to appreciate a sheer line in plan view. Could you give us a before and after elevation?

Nice work, btw.

thanks. i haven't really been taking a lot of elevation pics. it was that wiggle/flat spot on the bottom in the before picture that was bothering me. but now that you mention it, i should take an elevation shot and study it. it seems like i can sometimes see flaws easier while studying the pictures.

[michigangeorge]

Just a short aside here on cross planked bottoms. About 4-5 years ago I built a traditionally constructed Heidi Skiff using white oak framing, western red cedar side planks and northern white cedar for the cross planked bottom. The boat was just about done when I really had a need for it. The bottom had been traditionally caulked and the caulking painted over with red lead. I then found I was out of seam sealer and none was available here in our small town. I needed to put this boat in the water now so I ended up filling the seams with SLICK SEAM - the wax type product meant for temporary use. The boat was launched without a leak and has stayed that way living on a trailer now for all this time and used once a year for a few hours. I do keep the interior of the bottom well saturated with boat soup. I painted the bottom exterior with some old copper/bronze I had laying around but it does not adhere well to the slick seam.
Just goes to show cross planking is not all that much to be concerned about.

[P-man]

thanks for that information, michigangeorge. that's very useful to know. do you know if slick seam would be more likely to melt in warmer water? i assume, if yours is in MI, the waters are relatively cold. Heidi is a great skiff. i've spent some time reading that article, studying the building method. i like the idea of boat soup in a simple boat such as this. i guess your boat is covered when not in use? how often do you apply more soup?

[P-man]

here's an elevation shot.

[michigangeorge]

thanks for that information, michigangeorge. that's very useful to know. do you know if slick seam would be more likely to melt in warmer water? i assume, if yours is in MI, the waters are relatively cold. Heidi is a great skiff. i've spent some time reading that article, studying the building method. i like the idea of boat soup in a simple boat such as this. i guess your boat is covered when not in use? how often do you apply more soup?

P-man, yes our water is cold so I have no idea how Slick Seam would hold up down south and neither would I recommend you do your cross planked bottom in this manner. I just wanted to point out that a cross planked bottom can survive and take some abuse without resorting to splines, epoxy or 5200. My Heidi is usually kept outside under cover rightside up on the trailer. She spent this last winter in my dry, heated shop so I will be interested to see how she fares this spring. I re-soup once a year.
Your model looks great!

[P-man]

latest pictures.

[Sailor]

Sweet.

[jsjpd1]

Cool little model you've got there P-man. It's coming along very nicely.

Jim

[P-man]

thanks Sailor and Jim. the list of mistakes and compromises continues to get bigger, but it has managed to continue to look like a boat. i feel confident that i can avoid those same problems on the full size build, so it's all good. now waiting on paint and lumber for seat risers, thwarts, sternsheets and spars. making a sail ought to be interesting...

perry

[jalmberg]

How are you going to get those chine logs right on the full-size boat? Steam bend them and then plane in the right bevels? Seems to me that they are the key to this boat.

I'd also be very tempted to use 6 station molds to get the curve right. It would be worth another hour or two's work, IMHO.

[P-man]

yes, John those chines are key. i ended up laminating them on my model and almost planed away most of it in one spot getting the side planks to lay flat. the plans call for steam bending or cutting to shape and then beveling. i should probably have done some more experimenting with steam bending, but i wasn't doing very well with the microwave method i was trying. if i had made my molds stronger, i might have been able to steam it in place, but i didn't think my molds could stand the forces. 6 molds isn't a bad idea. i actually made 6, then saw the instructions only called for 4. it really became apparent how far i had strayed from Mr. Atkin's fine lines when i made the skeg. i lifted the lines for the curve of the skeg off the lofting and shaped a piece to match. when i put it on the bottom of the boat i saw how far off i had gotten. i had to take the curve off the boat and go from there. i should have spent more time on setting up, but didn't have a tiny plumb bob. at this point i'm just trying to keep it looking like a boat.

[P-man]

fitting sternsheets:

[jalmberg]

yes, John those chines are key. i ended up laminating them on my model and almost planed away most of it in one spot getting the side planks to lay flat. the plans call for steam bending or cutting to shape and then beveling. i should probably have done some more experimenting with steam bending, but i wasn't doing very well with the microwave method i was trying. if i had made my molds stronger, i might have been able to steam it in place, but i didn't think my molds could stand the forces. 6 molds isn't a bad idea. i actually made 6, then saw the instructions only called for 4. it really became apparent how far i had strayed from Mr. Atkin's fine lines when i made the skeg. i lifted the lines for the curve of the skeg off the lofting and shaped a piece to match. when i put it on the bottom of the boat i saw how far off i had gotten. i had to take the curve off the boat and go from there. i should have spent more time on setting up, but didn't have a tiny plumb bob. at this point i'm just trying to keep it looking like a boat.

Yes, from watching you, its easy to see that you can only push 'realistic' modeling so far, because the physical properties of wood don't really scale down. Maybe experienced modelers substitute one wood for another, for example, using a very fine grain wood so you aren't planing one tree ring. I'm impressed at how well you've done. If I wasn't spending 6 hours a day working on my big boat, I'd be tempted to try it myself!

[P-man]

thanks, John. i might have had an easier time with basswood and will probably try that with the next one. i used mahogany for this one, mainly because it seemed like a proper boat building wood, compared to the other choices on the modeling supply website (basswood, cherry and walnut), but i suppose rot resistance isn't too crucial for a static model.

[P-man]

thought i'd do some painting and work on my oar locks and sockets while waiting for more lumber.

[jsjpd1]

Did you make the oarlocks P-man?

[P-man]

Did you make the oarlocks P-man?

so far Jim, all i have is a wooden template (second picture above). i may have bitten off more than i can chew. still thinking about how to proceed.

[jsjpd1]

I didn't realize the oarlock was wood, I thought it was brass like the socket. If I was making that oarlock I think I would bend the U part of it first, using a bit of copper wire. Then I'd solder on a post and finish shape with a small file.

[P-man]

that was my first thought too, but i just got a copy of one of Dynamite Payson's books on modeling and he cut oarlocks out of brass sheet using a template so i thought i would give it a try. i may try the 2 piece also and see what works best. i was actually thinking about taking a thin slice of brass tubing, cutting it open and bending the cut ends out to form the horns.