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Thread: A better bedding compound

  1. #1
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    Default A better bedding compound

    Dolfinite is no longer commercially available in Canada. I'm looking for an alternative which will allow me to remove the fittings (in this case a door lock) reasonably easily in the future if necessary. I use Sikka 291 for other applications but think it may be too adhesive for what I have in mind. All suggestions welcome.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    butyl rubber from sika not sure of the number. remains soft indefinitely and non adhesive (relatively speaking)
    whatever rocks your boat

  3. #3
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    I plan to try 3M caulking strips made with Butyl, Kaolin and some other ingredients. It is supposed to seal, stay flexible and never dry out. It comes off pretty easily with mineral spirits. On another thread, the consensus seemed to be that the stuff works well, but because it doesn't skin over, can move from the place it is installed. I saw on the package label that it can be painted, so a little varnish might keep it in place. It is sticky, but only slightly adhesive.

    3M™ Strip Calk 08578

    I have seen gray Butyl designated for use in the RV industry. The 3M product was at a auto parts store along with body repair stuff.

    here's a link to a prior thread on this topic:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/...t-130289.html?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Why do you need to bed a door lock?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Can you buy butyl rubber mastic in tubes in Canada?Non-hardening and a thinner film than using the tape.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    For something like that if you do want to back the door lock with something why not just use a bit of nitrile rubber cut to shape? Something like .8mm or 1.5mm.
    Larks

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Is Interlux #214 Boatyard Bedding Compound available? It's similar to Dolfinite.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Go to RONA and buy a tube of Sika Construction Sealant. Not adhesive - get the Sealant. $7 a tube. Outstanding for that purpose. Let it dry for 2 or 3 days and you can trim it very easily with a sharp knife. Superb stuff.

    - Norm

  9. #9

    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    If you order Dolfinite online, you can get it shipped up from the US. I just went across the border and bought two quarts in the US and brought it back

  10. #10
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    The "marine" compounds are ridiculously priced for what they are.

    I use a commercial plumber's poly caulk like Vulkem for 3 bucks a tube and simply wax the hardware before bedding it. While the caulk is somewhat adhesive (although not as adhesive as 3M 4200), the wax acts as a release agent and the hardware pops right off when you need it to.

    Plus the synthetic poly caulk remains soft and outlasts chalk-linseed compounds like Dolphinite several-fold over for a small fraction of the price. Plus the synthetics are mold-proof where linseed-based compounds are not. A better way to skin this cat by any measure.

    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 05-22-2011 at 10:53 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    SlickSeam works real good for some jobs.
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

  12. #12
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser View Post
    The "marine" compounds are ridiculously priced for what they are.

    I use a commercial plumber's poly caulk like Vulkem for 3 bucks a tube and simply wax the hardware before bedding it. While the caulk is somewhat adhesive (although not as adhesive as 3M 4200), the wax acts as a release agent and the hardware pops right off when you need it to.
    Bob, how long does it last in the tube, after you've opened it?

    My problem with all tube-based stuff is you end up using a teaspoon, and then throwing away the rest of the tube. $3/tsp is better than $12/tsp, but still a lot.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Quote Originally Posted by jalmberg View Post
    Bob, how long does it last in the tube, after you've opened it?
    I stick a 16-penny nail in the opening and it lasts several months. But I buy it by the case and use a lot of it in other applications. Insure all the air is out then wrapping it tightly in Saran Wrap might work even better.

    Otherwise get out the ladder and a scraper and recaulk a window or two until it's used up. They probably need it anyway.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Evening, Bob,
    I see in your photo that the rub rails appear to be removed - will you re-install them 'dry' or will they have bedding applied? If bedding is used on the rub rails, would you recommend the same type of plumber's caulk?

    Not the same situation as your rub rails but hoping for some advice anyway: I have replaced the salon's decking canvas and am now re-fitting the battens around the circumference of the salon - there was some sort of compound there when I removed them (absolutely non pliable or flexible after 60 years) that was a bear to remove. Anyways, what is the current practice for these type battens, will these battens need some type of bedding??

    Thanks,
    Bill

  15. #15
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Depends on access, Bill. I'd bed'em in Vulkem 116 providing when the time comes to remove them, I can get a spatula under them. If they stick mightily, heating the spatula with a heat gun usually does the trick.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Thanks for the reply, Bob
    No problem with access - hopefully I won't be removing these battens in my lifetime but given that this particular boat is 65 years old now and in fairly good shape, there might be somebody 30-40 years from now replacing the canvas again. Even if my name is long gone from the record, I don't want some future owner cussing the PO that applied the battens with unbreakable adhesive.

    Going back to your photo and the metal hardware fitting that I think you are referring to: are you sealing the individual screws / hardware fastener holes with the caulk as well? The Vulkem 116 as well ?? My aforementioned salon top is littered with miscellaneous fittings and hardware all held in place with either wood screws or nut / bolts.
    Thanks again.

    Bill

  17. #17
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Being anal about bedding screws will add a decade of more of life to the part, as screws are where much of the rot begins.

    Red lead dribbled into the pilot holes and after drying a dab of bedding compound into the holes.



    Or...if it's a highly stressed joint, bed it in epoxy using wax as a hardware release agent to break it loose fromt he epoxy followed by bedding in Vulkem:

    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 06-14-2011 at 08:18 AM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Thanks, Bob; agree on the fasteners being a major source of water entry - at some time in my Monk's life, a set of danforth anchor chocks were added to the foredeck with no apparent bedding or sealing. Ply decking / 3 deck beams, shelf beam, and 3 frame heads had rot that appears to have started at the chock's fastener screws that passed through the ply and into the deck beam. One of the deck beams was more like a U-channel - looked pretty good on 3 sides that were visible in the fore peak cabin.

    I do not have any red lead at this point - any alternates that you might suggest for sealing fasterner openings??

    Bill

  19. #19
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Far West Paint in Tukwila carries red lead paint (item x6748) for only 42 bucks a gallon, and they'll UPS it to you if you don't want to drive there. That's a good price, and thinned 50-50 to use as a primer, a better value than mixing your own.

    http://www.farwestpaint.com/Catalog/INDEX1-1.htm#ap

    Otherwise I dribble copper napthanate or thinned copper bottom paint into the holes. That works well too, but takes longer to dry.
    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 06-15-2011 at 02:33 PM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Thanks, Bob, for the lead on the red lead source. I'll check with them on their hours of operation - I have to go Seattle a couple times next week and I may be able to stop.
    Bill

  21. #21
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Thanks for the tip on Far West Paint, Bob! I'll second your advice on sealing screw holes, especially vertical ones. I often fill "used" holes with CPES and let it soak in and cure before rebedding the fitting. That gives a bit better "bite" for the threads where no sealer had been there before. Great idea about waxing the fittings' bases as a release agent. I'm going to start doing that with ALL bedded fittings. Even with non-adhesive bedding compounds, it certainly won't hurt to take a moment to make the next removal a lot easier. I expect a wax "releasing agent" will also make cleaning the fitting base for rebedding a lot easier and reduce the number of trips to the wire wheel for clean-up of old dried bedding compound.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    ... reduce the number of trips to the wire wheel for clean-up of old dried bedding compound.
    That's exactly why I've switched entirely to commercial poly plumber's caulk.

    Engineered to remain intact and pliable underground for decades, it doesn't dry out.

    It's available everywhere.

    And it's as cheap as tar roofing patch, so there is no reason to skimp.

    And it even comes in colors.

    I'll let linseed oil/whiting compounds go the way of the dinosaurs.


    I asked the counter guy at Far West if he sells much red lead, and he said no. I mentioned that probably the only reason was that almost nobody knew they made it, as I've been building and maintaining boats and outdoor woodwork here since 1975 and had never heard of them. I told him I could help a bit in that regard...and when I use my first gallon of it in a few weeks, I'll post on it. They use lead chromate instead of lead tetroxide, but it should work all the same. I believe chromate is more popular for metal priming than tetroxide.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser View Post
    That's exactly why I've switched entirely to commercial poly plumber's caulk.

    Engineered to remain intact and pliable underground for decades, it doesn't dry out.

    It's available everywhere.

    And it's as cheap as tar roofing patch, so there is no reason to skimp.

    And it even comes in colors.

    I'll let linseed oil/whiting compounds go the way of the dinosaurs........
    Any idea as to how this product will fare for bedding polycarbonate (or acrylic) windows to a wooden frame on the top-sides (read: heaps of UV and infra-red) ?

  24. #24
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Bob, where do you buy Vulkem 116? I find their website, but now a "where to buy it" link.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Quote Originally Posted by seo View Post
    Bob, where do you buy Vulkem 116? I find their website, but now a "where to buy it" link.
    Earlier this morning I googled and came across the following :

    http://www.tremcosealants.com/commer...etail.asp?id=1

  26. #26
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    I've bedded marine Lexan windows with Vulkem with excellent results....but only as a sealant along with fasteners, however.

    I get this stuff at my hardware jobber, Tacoma Screw, because I have an account there and it's what they carry. It's hardly unique as a general-purpose poly sealant, there are probably a dozen just like it made by PL and others.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    I finally found a supplier for Vulkem just down the coast in Rockland. I've also sent the company an order for their samples. I wonder if this stuff will paint all right?

  28. #28
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser View Post
    I've bedded marine Lexan windows with Vulkem with excellent results....but only as a sealant along with fasteners, however.

    I get this stuff at my hardware jobber, Tacoma Screw, because I have an account there and it's what they carry. It's hardly unique as a general-purpose poly sealant, there are probably a dozen just like it made by PL and others.
    Appreciate the feedback.

    I did my own thing the last time I bedded some PCB windows along with screws and used a poly-based Sika product that is the closest thing to glazierīs putty.

    The specs stated that bedded parts would lift off effortlessly if needed, but the windows leaked right from day one !

  29. #29

    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Was about to suggest 3M 4200, but there are better suggestions already. Also, Wjames, taking chances to sound unpatriotic - if you live in the driving distance from the border, just get a US mailing address. Any major US border town has these services now, they receive, notify you by email and hold it for you (free first 2 weeks). With some retailers shipping free to the 48 states, you only pay a nominal service fee to receiver (usually from $3 a parcel). Cost of gas on 30 miles to the border and back you will compensate by 25% cheaper gas in the states. Canada Customs might charge you 11% sales tax (same as your local store), but on purchases under $60 they are usually lenient.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Quote Originally Posted by SV Papillon View Post
    Not to drift much but I have a question on bedding for the "Bob's"

    Thru trial and error, I have come to the following as far as bedding stuff. Something below decks that may need to come apart gets dolphinite, I can buy it right down the street. I won't use it for anything above decks as I had some bad luck on cabin trim with it, and port lights, next time I think I will try butel (sp) rubber. Anything below decks that I want to be able to move a little but don't foresee taking apart unless major demo, gets 3m 5200, this is what I set all the edges of my bulkheads in. Anything that wont come apart and i'm not worried about movement gets thickened epoxy. Now above decks, and this is where I am interested in opinions, what is the proper method. I would think you have the number one priority of keeping water out of the joint of what you are attaching. I would think that on hardware that sees stress you would want to use a compound that is a adhesive to back up the fastners? Is that corect, Bob you mention using a release agent so it would seem that all hardware you bed is not going to be bonded in any way but rely on the mechanical fastening, is this a general rule?

    For example you are putting a cleat on a rail what do you use? A winch on a wood mast what do you use?



    Jake
    No, you don't want adhesive for the purpose of holding the fitting in place. That's what mechanical fasteners are for. Fittings, particularly, come off fairly regularly, especially whenever painting or varnishing is done. You don't want them welded to the wood with some sort of goop. Myself, anything in a tube that says "3M," I walk the other way. Not that they don't make good products, but for tube goop, you can get just as good for a quarter the price at the Big Box stores. For bedding, you want something that is flexible, so that as the stresses work on the fitting, the seal won't let go and allow leaking.

    I use Dolphinite, primarily for all bedding, except glass. I will probably check out Vulkem the next time I'm in the hardware store, although I prefer not to use tubed goops because I always seem to end up throwing out 3/4 of the tube when it goes off (and I've tried nails, screws, saran wrap, and all the other tricks, but still... once opened, tube life is short.) A can of Dolphinite lasts forever, since it's really just used in small amounts. A bit of mineral spirits, acetone, or whatever solvent is handy, stirred in, rejuvenates it when it starts to dry in the can.

    For windows in wood, I use silicone sealant, whichever brand is cheapest. The window to wood joints are always covered by a trim ring or wooden trim, bedded in Dolphinite, which covers the silicone. (Silicone won't hold up in the sun. I tried to tell that to a sunbathing lady one time when I inadvertently rowed my dinghy up on one of "those" beaches, but she didn't appreciate the advice....) I try to leave at least a quarter inch of space between the window edge and the wood edge and fill that with silicone. The silicone is very compressable. This method prevents the window cracking (or popping loose if it's lexan) when the wood swells. A tightly fitted window will crack when the wood swells. (Don't ask me how I know this.)

  31. #31
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    Default Re: A better bedding compound

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    No, you don't want adhesive for the purpose of holding the fitting in place. That's what mechanical fasteners are for. Fittings, particularly, come off fairly regularly, especially whenever painting or varnishing is done. You don't want them welded to the wood with some sort of goop. Myself, anything in a tube that says "3M," I walk the other way. Not that they don't make good products, but for tube goop, you can get just as good for a quarter the price at the Big Box stores. For bedding, you want something that is flexible, so that as the stresses work on the fitting, the seal won't let go and allow leaking.
    Youīve got the objective well covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    For windows in wood, I use silicone sealant, whichever brand is cheapest. The window to wood joints are always covered by a trim ring or wooden trim, bedded in Dolphinite, which covers the silicone. (Silicone won't hold up in the sun. I tried to tell that to a sunbathing lady one time when I inadvertently rowed my dinghy up on one of "those" beaches, but she didn't appreciate the advice....) I try to leave at least a quarter inch of space between the window edge and the wood edge and fill that with silicone. The silicone is very compressable. This method prevents the window cracking (or popping loose if it's lexan) when the wood swells. A tightly fitted window will crack when the wood swells. (Don't ask me how I know this.)
    In addition to leaving a 1/4 " gap as you suggest above, I recall reading somewhere that drilling slightly oversize (+ 1/32 inches ? ) holes in the Lexan for the fasteners also contributes towards this end.

    If I understood your argument, the reason for using silicone is that it takes up whatever relative movement there is between window/substrate material without breaking the seal, while also adhering less tenaciously to the mating surfaces (for future removal/refitting) ............ than most poly-based goops.

    The precautions - for exposing silicone to the sunīs rays - are well taken !
    Last edited by carioca1232001; 06-19-2011 at 07:51 AM.

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