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Thread: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

  1. #1
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    Default Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/sm...-and-oar/ratty

    I've just asked a local professional boatyard for an estimate price for their building of Tad's Ratty 20. The reply I got is unfortunately higher than I hoped, so I wonder what would seem to be a realistic price in your part of the world?

    On the other hand, what would you think about this design as an option for amateur self build - in terms of difficulty, required time, price... What book would best describe the technique for building this boat?

    Thanks.
    m

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Try Ian Oughtred's book, Clinker Plywood Boatbuilding Manual. John Brooks also has a book on the same technique.

    As an amateur, I think that design would be within my capabilities.

    Brian

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Have you contacted Tad Directly? I believe he would be more than happy to assist in the build.
    Ratty is an awesome boat. I've sailed on her a few times with the builders. It took them about 3 months to complete.
    Go for it, It's a great boat.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    I couldn't tell from the link (and the photos) whether that is a flat-bottomed hull or not. If it is, I don't know if the word "easy" would be appropriate (is any build easy?), but it is going to be simpler than a round-bottomed hull. It's essentially a skiff.

    You can do it!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    When we had Ratty built 10 years ago materials cost about $9000 Canadian and construction man hours were about 1200.......I supplied full size plots of the stem and bulkheads, but there was a bit of lofting........many, many man hours went into the full sheathing (inside and out) with fiberglass and epoxy....something I am thankful for every day.....a wise investment considering the full time use she gets now........

    An amateur (first or second build) might easily spend 1500+ hours to get a decently finished boat.......but a great deal depends on how fussy you are......no boat is "easy" to build and Ratty was not designed to be particularly easy to build.....but I'm pretty convinced that anybody can build almost any boat if they are stubborn enough to keep at it and willing to do some research before diving into the various tasks.........

    Ratty is not flat bottomed, her lower strake carries a shallow vee through most of her length before twisting into a sharp vee at the stem.....That forefoot is the hardest part of the build, but three layers of 1/8" ply make is possible.......There are four strakes each side, all 3/8" ply over 5/8" thick bulkheads......



    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://blog.tadroberts.ca/
    http://www.passagemakerlite.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Many thanks for words of encouragement and for the data. Those numbers and the photo make me better realize that she is a serious boat. It seems that my boatyards assesment wasn't far off. Have to think now a lot.
    Two more questions for Mr Roberts:
    Can you easilly get the outboard prop out of the water for sailing?
    Could you share a few words on how she handles under sail?
    Thanks to all.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    1200 man hours? wow. yes, that surpasses the skiff level of effort. for me, that's a good year and a half of work, part-time.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    For that kind of money, there are some very nice used boats of other materials.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    matoi........Yes, Ratty indeed is a serious boat, having made numerous voyages far and wide in her I would not hesitate to take her anywhere.

    Ratty was drawn as one of a group of designs I did in 2001 to illustrate an article in WoodenBoat.....When the opportunity to build something for myself came along she was natural as at the time I wanted a forgiving seaboat to teach my sons sailing and to make some family weekend trips. At construction the addition of an engine well was almost an afterthought......we built a flush plug and for the first 6 years she had no engine, we sailed or rowed with 4 12' oars....she was a pleasure boat. Then things changed and she became a workboat, this means the outboard may be needed at a moments notice......as built the engine cannot tilt up, this could be seen as a mistake on my part, but a larger well would be more difficult to plug, heavier, and take away more from the interior of the boat.....compromise.......

    If I were building her for pleasure use where the engine was only required occasionally, I would fit the same well with an electric outboard and just put the motor in the aft locker when not in use.......As some of our trips demand 3-4 days in a row under power, and also lots of thrust when towing larger boats.....the gas outboard is the answer for us today.....it is awkward to get up out of the well though......if I wanted a gas outboard I would revise the well to a longer (through the transom) configuration so it could tip up.....we may get to rebuilding this one some day.......

    As I mentioned Ratty is very forgiving under sail, which could be read to say she could use more sail area......Summer in BC generally means very light winds, and with lots of tide it is a challenge sailing in narrow channels......so the engine or oars are often in use........I found the standing lug sails powerful without heeling the boat a lot and she is (with the standard rig) really at her best in the mid-upper teen wind range.....dropping the flat plate steel board in these conditions is like dropping into overdrive, she just straightens up and goes.......the bend of the unstayed spars takes a lot of the jerking out of her motion and really seems to open up the boat with no shrouds cluttering the place.......the flat plate centerboard is a handicap in low winds because it stalls (stops providing lift) when tacking in light air.....You blow sideways until boat speed picks up on the new tack....but it's simple.......If I was planning on sailing her a lot in light air I would fit a foil shaped board as her big sister Tern has.......
    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://blog.tadroberts.ca/
    http://www.passagemakerlite.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Quote Originally Posted by matoi View Post
    http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/sm...-and-oar/ratty

    I've just asked a local professional boatyard for an estimate price for their building of Tad's Ratty 20. The reply I got is unfortunately higher than I hoped, so I wonder what would seem to be a realistic price in your part of the world?

    On the other hand, what would you think about this design as an option for amateur self build - in terms of difficulty, required time, price... What book would best describe the technique for building this boat?

    Thanks.
    m

    matoi,

    Strictly using Tad's figures, we would charge something like $45,000 (with some room for discussion about level of finish, level of completion, etc.) for that boat. What was the quote you got in your neighborhood?
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Forum rules....use backchannel if you want to sell a boat, David.

    I looked at Ratty at one point, too. She is a very cool boat. I think doing her glued lap with Sapele and no fiberglass would also make a good boat without all the fiberglassing.

    Clint
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Quote Originally Posted by matoi View Post
    http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/sm...-and-oar/ratty

    I've just asked a local professional boatyard for an estimate price for their building of Tad's Ratty 20. The reply I got is unfortunately higher than I hoped, so I wonder what would seem to be a realistic price in your part of the world?

    On the other hand, what would you think about this design as an option for amateur self build - in terms of difficulty, required time, price... What book would best describe the technique for building this boat?

    Thanks.
    m
    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton B Chase View Post
    Forum rules....use backchannel if you want to sell a boat, David.

    I looked at Ratty at one point, too. She is a very cool boat. I think doing her glued lap with Sapele and no fiberglass would also make a good boat without all the fiberglassing.

    Clint
    Clint,

    Were you under the impression that I was pitching my services to a fellow from Croatia? No. That would be silly. Simply answering his inquiry about what such a boat would go for here, and inquiring back what it would go for there. What would it go for in Maine? I very much imagine that he could get it built near to him much less expensively... but I'm still curious.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Clearly the reason for building a new custom boat is that you must have that particular design built in a very specific way, not that you just want any boat because there are tens of thousands of boats available for less money, as there are thousands available for more.....The cost becomes a secondary issue........

    Looking over my receipts for Ratty's materials I find........(2001-2002 prices)

    $1600 for sails from Leitch & McBride in Sidney, beautiful sails that set and fit perfectly out of the bag.....
    $700 for Sitka Spruce (at $12 bf) for the spars
    $200 for purpleheart for rails, knees, tiller, and centerboard case cap
    $325 for 5/8" steel plate, NC cut for centerboard (286 lbs)
    $1287 for 13 sheets 9mm (3/8") Joubert ply
    $160 for 3 sheets 3mm Joubert ply
    $700 for 5 sheets 12mm okume (bulkheads, transom, rudder, centerboard case) not 5/8" as I mentioned above but 1/2".......
    $450 for Fir used to laminate the stem, keel, and thwart knees....
    $370 for Red Cedar used for floorboards and thwarts
    $$$ for West system epoxy, glass cloth, bronze bolts and screws, paint, etc.....

    Her interior when still unfinished.......

    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://blog.tadroberts.ca/
    http://www.passagemakerlite.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Many thanks for all the information.

    The boatbuilder in my vicinity stated an equivalent of cca 32k USD. It was just a rough figure to give me an understanding of what I was dreaming about. I don't have such money now, so I didn't go into further discussions yet and hence I don't know if they had complete sheathing on their mind or not. I'm quite confident in their craftsmanship and I totally respect the effort that goes into building of such boat and sustaining such a business, but since Tad put forward the hours and David his estimate I hope they are not reading this thread because by the time I improve the budget they will have the bar raised :-)) (my own fault asking out loud in the first place)

    Why did I get interested in Ratty?

    It's funny that the main reason comes from the same thing Tad says to have had on his mind when he designed her: taking kids on the water.
    I bought my current boat when kids were the last thing on my mind and it's given me wonderful experience and motivation to learn more about sailing and dinghy cruising. But now we have two girls (2 and 4 yo) and priorities are shaken. 'Pinčika' seems too crowded for familly daysailing while on the other hand I would like a boat that would be easier to single-hand in range of conditions that interests me. I'm reluctant to singlehand my current boat because of fear of quick weather changes and confused weather forecasts so common here, and I can't modify her because of her construction. Also, desire for singlehanding makes me very interested in freestanding cat ketch rigs.
    A faint memory of being stung near the eye by a wasp on o remote beach, makes me think that when small kids are around there is no place for demonstrating sail and oar purism (which I otherwise agree with and share) or electrics. So I need an stinking outboard now, but I would like to have it mounted properly (in a well rather than hanging far behind the transom).
    I have an artist friend who says for herself that she is an educated snob when it comes to choosing the tools for her job, and I like that expression. I tend to think of myself as an (semi)educated snob when it comes to boats. Obvioulsy I could be far better educated, but still I'm absolutely not interested in spending a single coin on things like Bavarias (people sometimes ask me why isn't it better to just rent a B or similar thing rather than investing into a small expensive cabin-less boat).
    I guess if I was completely normal and rational, I wouldn't be here either :-)

    All the best!
    Last edited by matoi; 05-20-2011 at 05:49 PM. Reason: typo

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Clint,

    Were you under the impression that I was pitching my services to a fellow from Croatia? No. That would be silly.
    +1
    Goat Island Skiff and Simmons Sea Skiff construction photos here:

    http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w...esMan/?start=0

    and here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/37973275@N03/

    "All kings are not the same."

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Hey, we can ship anywhere, man.

    1200 hrs seems like a lot, but it is a lot boat, too. 45K seems like a good deal.
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    A real lovely boat, it, is in my thoughts when I have to choose which boat I have to build.
    Carl Andersen
    http://blue-dane.org/

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    TR,

    You mentioned glassing both interior and exterior. Would you mind roughly explaining the process especially considering the lap joints of the exterior. Wanting to build a boat with lapstrake ply I thought of glassing the hull but have been swayed away from it because of assumed difficulties dealing with the joints and sharp edges.

    ...and like others have said, wonderful boat!

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Quote Originally Posted by RodSBT View Post
    TR,

    You mentioned glassing both interior and exterior. Would you mind roughly explaining the process especially considering the lap joints of the exterior. Wanting to build a boat with lapstrake ply I thought of glassing the hull but have been swayed away from it because of assumed difficulties dealing with the joints and sharp edges.

    ...and like others have said, wonderful boat!
    Thanks for the question Rod.....

    I am hoping to track down Quill (one of the builders) to get the exact story......for now you'll have to take my foggy memories......

    I too was concerned about getting the glass around those laps so we bought the lightest glass cloth available...2oz.....which is claimed to just be a "vehicle for waterproofing", which it does, but we found it added tremendous stiffness to the 3/8" ply panels when applied to both sides.....

    I think the cloth was fairly wide, 50"+, and I believe there is one longitudinal seam in the outside, but it's below the waterline on the bottom strake. The cloth was doubled over the keel but that's not enough on it's square edges.....doing the keel again (which will be done soon) I would use at least two layers of 6oz where it takes all the beaching abuse..... That or add a full width strip of UHMWP along the entire keel.

    Both inside and outside corners of the laps are radiused, the inside one is much larger, perhaps 3/8" to 1/2", while the outside one is tiny, perhaps 1/4"......it is finicky but possible.....And the cloth in epoxy has stood up very well....it takes abrasion with no problems, but the point of a dropped 66 lb anchor will poke a small hole through it fairly easily.....

    Though sheathed all the laps are still rather distinct.....people often ask if she's a Drascombe........

    The inside glassing took a great deal of effort due to all the bulkheads and floors....there were many pieces, large and small, and inumerable hours spent sanding.....but again I don't regret those hours at all......
    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://blog.tadroberts.ca/
    http://www.passagemakerlite.com

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Thanks Tad, that helps a bunch. I know some break out in hives when the mention of glassing wood comes up but I seem to enjoy the process to a certain extent.

    From what I have gleaned form the Goug. bros., a layer of glass on each side of marine ply imbedded in epoxy doubles the strength over non reinforced ply.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Tad Roberts Ratty 20

    Quote Originally Posted by RodSBT View Post
    From what I have gleaned form the Goug. bros., a layer of glass on each side of marine ply imbedded in epoxy doubles the strength over non reinforced ply.
    Rod,

    I'm not sure but I think you may be referring to the Gougeon's testing of impact strength (resistance to puncture from a point load).......

    Impact strength and stiffness (resistance to bending) are different things, though both are dependent on the weight of glass cloth used as reinforcement....As I mentioned 2oz glass does little (thought it certainly does something) for impact resistance....

    I was slightly alarmed at how floppy Ratty's bulwarks were when we flipped her right side up with glass on the outside only......but when we finished glassing the inside I was impressed by the difference made by adding another "waterproofing" layer.....then once the rails and knees were added the bulwark became pretty rigid.....
    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://blog.tadroberts.ca/
    http://www.passagemakerlite.com

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