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Thread: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    The more I read about this design the more brilliant it becomes. I had wanted to build a sailboat next, but this boat makes a lot of sense for me. There is a lot of skinny water near me, but shore camping is tough.

    With the outrigger pontoon thingies looks like a killer fly fishing platform.

    Much nicer than the two sail and oar auxillary options I was considering. Looks a bit beyond my build skill but with full size patterns all things are possible. Maybe.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Quote Originally Posted by longrower View Post
    .....


    Yes, the boat is not designed to sail, and without speed-sapping modifications will have poor sailing performance. I wouldn't recommend anything more than a simple downwind rig. As Dan mentioned, oars will be much, much faster into the wind. In the Expedition rowboat I have passed hundreds of high-performance sailboats zigzagging into the wind.
    Thanks Colin, I was thinking of a down wind rig. Have used a crude home made one fashioned from heavy clear plastic ( visiqueen? I found it dumped at roadside ) and 1"x2" trim from'n the Lowes on my inflatable kayak.



    Definitely not designed for sailing, Slower than a bag of rocks, Handles like trash bag filled with packing peanuts. But with a very crude sail and a little paddle power is rather entertaining coming down a lake in the evening after a day of fly fishing. We usually have winds in the 7-15 knot range most spring/summer/fall days.

    Your camper is the boat I have been looking for. Even if there isn't a satisfactory way to put a downwind rig on her.

    My GLD is great for exploring our slow tidal rivers and the bay, but not a good boat to sleep on. I was thinking of a sail boat next but I really wanted oar auxiliary and a cabin. Mutually exclusive for serious rowing until now. Great job. I'm eager to see plans available.

    One more stupid newbie question, is there a realistic way to make the sliding seat a fixed seat on the fly? Sorry but the only boats I've rowed besides aluminium outboard skiffs are my bolger box and GLD.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Looks to me as though the ventilation issue could easily be addressed. What I would want in this design is a canvas dodger and some simple arrangement to turn that large footwell into a sort of easy chair, so you had a place to lounge out of the wind and savor a dram before turning in. Two pieces of ply supported by cleats in the seating geometry of an Adirondack chair would do nicely. I can picture myself snuggled in with a hot cup of coffee in one hand and my trusty Nikons in the other, watching sandpipers work over the mud flats. Ah, Nature!
    Last edited by Rob Hazard; 05-22-2011 at 09:02 PM.

  4. #39

    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    The pontoons, table and cooking counter are stored in the sleeping quarters when underway. The pontoons are not beneficial for rowing, as they create a lot of drag and the increased stability is not required. When anchored, however, the stability is a great asset when you're walking all over the boat, and sitting on one side or the other. They keep it very stable. Yes, Perldog, it would work well for flyfishing. You can easily stand in the cockpit and cast the line, and you can still row, just not as fast, to move around on the water.

    A dodger would work well, but the key would be to have it disassemble or fold down easily when underway. It would allow you to keep the hatch wide open even when it's raining and offer some shelter to the cockpit. On cold nights, you'd still want want to shut the hatch, with a smaller opening to maintain air flow.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    I'm not the man for the job, but it seems like a rower/crazy person/adventurer could make some noise in the watertribe events with this boat. I'm crazy and adventurous, just not much of a rower ( yet ). I just want one for running away from home now and then. Definitely going to get a set of these plans.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    The pontoons make sense as used. Stability when you need it.

    I have camped a lot and compared to a small tent, the cabin here is spacious. It would be a great place to lie in bed and list to the rain on the cabin top just above

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Looking forward to when the plans are available! I love my adirondack guideboat, but it's far from ideal for sleeping aboard! Nicely done, Colin!

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    If Angus can sleep in that little cabin I think a similar set up might work for sleeping two, one on either side of the centerboard trunk in my Ipswich Bay 18' design... hmmm


  9. #44
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Would a sliding rigger - fixed seat set-up work for these boats?

    What are the pros and cons versus a sliding seat set-up for rowing in open/rougher water?

    Ian

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    I know there are people who swear that sliding riggers are faster and superior to sliding seats, but the fact remains that they have never caught on with the rowing public, whereas lots of other bright ideas that were originally banned in various competitive sports, have been adopted. If they are faster, why isn't there a sliding rigger class in races like the Blackburn Challenge?

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    I don't think that there is much doubt that sliding rigger can be faster but I am not sure about its application in large/heavy boats. The force driving the sliding rigger boat is effectively transferred via the rower's backside rather than the oar crutches, which could prove wearing after a long day.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    I know there are people who swear that sliding riggers are faster and superior to sliding seats, but the fact remains that they have never caught on with the rowing public, whereas lots of other bright ideas that were originally banned in various competitive sports, have been adopted. If they are faster, why isn't there a sliding rigger class in races like the Blackburn Challenge?
    I'm no oarsman, so I wonder the same thing. It makes sense why they have an advantage as the CG remains the same and the rowing motion doesn't cause the boat to pitch as a result of the CG moving fore and aft. Perhaps beacuse there's a big rowing competitive sanctioning body that still doesn't want to allow it?

    Dan

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Sorry, Dan, I can't buy that. If sliding riggers were truly faster, some hotshots would build boats to use them and blow the older sliding-seat boats out of the water. That way they'd force the sanctioning bodies to recognize them, the same way the multihull gang forced their way into the yachting world. Given today's obsession with the newest, fastest, lightest, highest tech gear, I can't believe that some bunch of blue-blazered fuddy-duddies can hold back a truly faster means of rowing a boat.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    Sorry, Dan, I can't buy that. If sliding riggers were truly faster, some hotshots would build boats to use them and blow the older sliding-seat boats out of the water. That way they'd force the sanctioning bodies to recognize them, the same way the multihull gang forced their way into the yachting world. Given today's obsession with the newest, fastest, lightest, highest tech gear, I can't believe that some bunch of blue-blazered fuddy-duddies can hold back a truly faster means of rowing a boat.
    Buy it or not, history has spoken. Sliding riggers were/are faster--hence their banishment. Yachting has a long and rich history of squashing innovation--Amyrlis (sp) anyone? Not for 80 years did other competitive multi's surface again, and even then Choy and others had to run "unofficial" entries into the transpac. Nah, I don't buy it.

    Dan

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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan St Gean View Post
    Buy it or not, history has spoken. Sliding riggers were/are faster--hence their banishment. Yachting has a long and rich history of squashing innovation--Amyrlis (sp) anyone? Not for 80 years did other competitive multi's surface again, and even then Choy and others had to run "unofficial" entries into the transpac. Nah, I don't buy it.

    Dan
    Much like cycle racing where recumbents were much faster - and immediately banned. Small-wheeled Moultons were superior in the velodrome - and immediately banned.

    Perhaps the most charitable explanation is that sliding riggers demand less exquisite technique to go really fast and thus devalue the sporting contest?

  16. #51

    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    The recumbent/diamond frame bicycle comparison is a good analogy with sliding riggers. Sliding riggers are slightly faster, but the governing rowing association has not allowed them to be used competitively. The smaller your boat is, the more effect they have since they reduce the pitching of the vessel as your body slides back and forth on a conventional system. The effect is negligible on larger boats with greater buoyancy, and therefore less pitching.

    I have never tried a sliding rigger system. Because of the size of the camper boat it is unlikely to have much impact on speed. The biggest drawback I see with a sliding rigger is that there is very little third-party hardware available for such a system since it is not commonly used. For someone who enjoys tinkering it could be a fun project, but the extra work would bring marginal, if any, gains in speed.

    Colin
    Last edited by longrower; 05-25-2011 at 01:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    I am also wondering what the watertribe would think of these boats. The Everglades challenge was mentioned, there's also their around Florida race which requires a 40 mile portage or some such. The amphibious nature of the Expedition ( being able to stow a decent folding bike and trailer ) and presumably the camper would seem a huge advantage.

    Last I read Steve Isaacs was doing his long portage on foot hauling his kayak behind him on a dolly. I was actually thinking of the E.C. when I asked about a downwind sail. To this armchair observer it seems that such a camper would always have the upper hand on the sail boats unless the wind was on the beam.

    Was it 2010 when the E.C. started into the wind going down the gulf coast? Can't see anybody catching a good rower in the camper after that start. '

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Watertribe is very paddle/sail oriented, so not much. One guy that went by the handle Beastrowermade it to Sanibel this year. Making progress into a 20 knot headwind is tough in most any craft.

    As for the Florida challenge, you'd have to do something about the width of the rig under oars to fir up the St. Mary's. Could it be paddled or sculled as well? Up near the top it's narrow and twisty--not the preferred course for a long rowboat.

    Dan

  19. #54

    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    If you're looking for straight-out performance, the Expedition would be a better boat since it is lighter and lower profile. You would however, need to sleep ashore, so the time savings could be negated. If you did it as a double, I think there are few craft that could outperform the Camper. Two people could alternate on the oars around the clock - one rowing, and one resting in the cabin. We may try breaking the circumnavigation record of Vancouver Island in this manner.

    Twisty is fine - the boat can actually turn more quickly and easily than a kayak. Extremely narrow, however, isn't good. They can be paddled kayak style, but speed will be reduced dramatically.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    I'm fascinated to follow your Vancouver Island circumnavigation in one of these boats, are you still deciding whether to take the Expeditions or the new Camper?

    Thinking about the outside of Vancouver Island, how do these boats go running downwind in near gale-gale conditions and big seas? I remember on our outside Vancouver Island trip in sea kayaks, we did a lot of miles in these sort of conditions - coming around a big headland like the Brooks Peninsula or Estevan Point with 30 knots from the NW and surfing the waves offshore for another 20 km down the coast. We were quite comfortable running downwind in loaded sea kayaks with rudders in these conditions, but I wonder how the rowboat would go in this, how you would maintain control.

    Ian

  21. #56

    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    This year I'm going to be using the Expedition, and then we may use the Camper for a double attempt next year.

    Yes, there will be some big winds along the NW coast of the island. Keeping the fingers crossed I'll be riding the NW'erlies, as opposed to the SE'erlies otherwise it's game over with regards to the record. The boats do well into moderate winds, but I won't be going anywhere against 30 knot winds and big waves.

    The Expedition tracks very well in big waves and downwind runs - gets up surfing nicely. We've been in some gnarly stuff, but I suspect, I could be facing the biggest yet going around the island, so we'll see. It comes down to finessing the oars to keep it from broaching.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    This is a lovely boat. It looks like a good Everglades Challenge boat except for during an adverse wind, but it seems pretty low. The requirement to "stealth camp" is my least favorite part of this event, and a boat like this solves that problem and even saves a little time making camp -- and some of those EC folk are very serious about saving ten minutes here and there (in fact, I think the overall winner this year won by 15 minutes against his 'arch rival' -- both boats going all out for ~35 hours). It makes me remember my one night anchored off Venice Inlet squished onto my 17 inch wide sleep-deck and waking up to rollers going by my ears. Yeah, I like the idea of this minimalist sleep-cockpit. Good man! -- Wade

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    On sails (I wasn't going to be the one to ask this, but I'm glad someone raised the topic :-) -- Lowells Boatshop used to make rowing dories (a little more slender than the traditional dories I think) with no centerboard or rudder, but they had a mast step for a drop-in down-wind sail (steer with an oar) that seemed very practical. It was no PAS kayak sail either, it was a real sail though perhaps a smaller than typical. When I had a dory and went out on rowing days, I plugged the daggerboard slot and left the rudder home, but of course I couldn't help but build a small downwind sail out of a painter's cloth and a 2x4, a little sprit sail. No wind, wind too high, or bad direction? Brail it up, lift it out, lay inside cockpit: 30 seconds. -- Wade

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    For an efficiency point of view a sliding rigger and a sliding seat system should be exactly equivalent, the only difference being the mass of the rower, but that seems to be what makes the difference. The speed variation of the sliding seat system is greater with a higher peak speed for the same average speed and at its higher peak speed the sliding seat boat sheds more energy, but it recovers significantly less energy at its minimum speed, so overall it is harder to push along. I did a computer study some time back which suggested the difference amounts to several percent - vast fortunes are spent for improvements of a fraction of that.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Haines View Post
    For an efficiency point of view a sliding rigger and a sliding seat system should be exactly equivalent, the only difference being the mass of the rower, but that seems to be what makes the difference. The speed variation of the sliding seat system is greater with a higher peak speed for the same average speed and at its higher peak speed the sliding seat boat sheds more energy, but it recovers significantly less energy at its minimum speed, so overall it is harder to push along. I did a computer study some time back which suggested the difference amounts to several percent - vast fortunes are spent for improvements of a fraction of that.
    Does that take into account the bobbing of the bow and alterations in trim that entails? I'm no rower, but that seems like it would allow for a more steady boat too. Just curious.

    Dan

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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan St Gean View Post
    Does that take into account the bobbing of the bow and alterations in trim that entails? I'm no rower, but that seems like it would allow for a more steady boat too. Just curious.

    Dan
    I didn't allow for bobbing and trim variations, just the speed. Bit of a discussion on the subject at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boa...-14250-55.html

    I cannot persuade the forum image loader to display my picture - the smaller I make the file the less space allowance I seem to get . . .

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan St Gean View Post
    Does that take into account the bobbing of the bow and alterations in trim that entails? I'm no rower, but that seems like it would allow for a more steady boat too.
    --- Great idea, Dan. I wouldn't have thought of that. -- Wade

  28. #63

    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    That was the main advantage of a sliding rigger over sliding seat - more stable fore-aft trim. Terry's point is also very valid - changing technique to reduce the max-min shell velocity oscillations is frequently discussed on rowing forums. I understand the FISA banned sliding riggers under the excuse of the cost of every boat being made instantly obsolete. Carbon fibre oars and boats and the newer blade shapes (e.g. hatchets) weren't banned as soon as they appeared because they didn't give a significant performance boost over the old technologies so the old could compete alongside the new, with the older equipment being replaced as it wore out.

    The main disadvantage of a sliding rig in this application would seem to be it's relative complexity. The sliding seat is bullet proof, until the wheels fall off (a spare seat wouldn't take much space). The sliding rig requires more moving parts so has more places to fail.

    Regards

    Jonathan

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    I found a nice report here http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...-bdn101110.pdf

    Figure 7 is what I was trying to post earlier from my own much simpler calculations. I haven't studied it yet but there's a lot of good stuff here for the serious rower i think.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    I guess it depends on where you are, but here on the eastern Coast of the U.S., the camper looks to be about the perfect touring rowboat. Most of the shoreline near me is either.. Privately owned - no camping, public beach - no camping, or marsh - try it if you want to.

    How do your leg muscles get used as efficiently with sliding rigger as with sliding seat?

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Quote Originally Posted by perldog007 View Post
    I guess it depends on where you are, but here on the eastern Coast of the U.S., the camper looks to be about the perfect touring rowboat. Most of the shoreline near me is either.. Privately owned - no camping, public beach - no camping, or marsh - try it if you want to.

    How do your leg muscles get used as efficiently with sliding rigger as with sliding seat?
    Similar to the situation in most of the UK. This looks like a superb stealth camping boat.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Congrats to Colin Angus ! He set a record for the fastest human powered circumnavigation around Vancouver Island . His butt will never forgive him .

    http://www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver...125189083.html
    If growth is good then how much is enough

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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    I would be interested to know if any modifications have suggested themselves now that the prototype camper has been launched?

  34. #69

    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Thanks! Yes, the bottom is still sore. I put closed-cell foam on the seat, but still, things were a little tender. I haven't done any more rowing in the camper boat (the circumnavigation was done in an Expedition), but there are a couple of things I thought about going around the island that would apply to both boats:

    Cockpit: I was a little concerned that the cockpit could get swamped in big seas. I had a bailer and sponge, but bailing takes time off the oars. A quicker process would be turning the boat on its side and allowing the water to flow out, but still not ideal (you'd probably end up swimming in the process). As it turned out, I never got more than a few gallons in the cockpit, and was able to mop it out quickly. In bigger seas (maybe storm-force conditions?) it could be a possibility. For those wishing to make the boat (this would apply to both the Camper and the Expedition) completely bombproof in big seas, the cockpit could be further shaped so that everything below the rowing tracks and foot well is sealed, with scuppers above the waterline to drain any water that comes on board.

    Rowing Rig: I've used the same dimensions/angles for the rowing setup in our boats as competitive racing sculls. This includes having the oar handle overlap which allows greater reach, and slightly better performance. I'm now thinking it might be better not to have the overlap for rowing in rougher conditions - it makes things a little more challenging. I'm fairly used to it after years behind the oars, but I could see it being quite challenging for novice rowers. There is also more potential for damage if the oar handles collide.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

    Quote Originally Posted by longrower View Post
    Thanks! Yes, the bottom is still sore. I put closed-cell foam on the seat, but still, things were a little tender. I haven't done any more rowing in the camper boat (the circumnavigation was done in an Expedition), but there are a couple of things I thought about going around the island that would apply to both boats:

    Cockpit: I was a little concerned that the cockpit could get swamped in big seas. I had a bailer and sponge, but bailing takes time off the oars. A quicker process would be turning the boat on its side and allowing the water to flow out, but still not ideal (you'd probably end up swimming in the process). As it turned out, I never got more than a few gallons in the cockpit, and was able to mop it out quickly. In bigger seas (maybe storm-force conditions?) it could be a possibility. For those wishing to make the boat (this would apply to both the Camper and the Expedition) completely bombproof in big seas, the cockpit could be further shaped so that everything below the rowing tracks and foot well is sealed, with scuppers above the waterline to drain any water that comes on board.

    Rowing Rig: I've used the same dimensions/angles for the rowing setup in our boats as competitive racing sculls. This includes having the oar handle overlap which allows greater reach, and slightly better performance. I'm now thinking it might be better not to have the overlap for rowing in rougher conditions - it makes things a little more challenging. I'm fairly used to it after years behind the oars, but I could see it being quite challenging for novice rowers. There is also more potential for damage if the oar handles collide.
    I suppose it might make sense to design the outrigger sponsons so that they stow in the cockpit, below the level of the seat tracks? That way you don't have to find space for them in the cabin when underway and they reduce the cockpit volume that can fill with water. Since they don't need to be hydrodynamic they could be simple box shapes that slot in neatly.

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