Camper Rowboat from Angus Rowboats

[longrower]

The recumbent/diamond frame bicycle comparison is a good analogy with sliding riggers. Sliding riggers are slightly faster, but the governing rowing association has not allowed them to be used competitively. The smaller your boat is, the more effect they have since they reduce the pitching of the vessel as your body slides back and forth on a conventional system. The effect is negligible on larger boats with greater buoyancy, and therefore less pitching.

I have never tried a sliding rigger system. Because of the size of the camper boat it is unlikely to have much impact on speed. The biggest drawback I see with a sliding rigger is that there is very little third-party hardware available for such a system since it is not commonly used. For someone who enjoys tinkering it could be a fun project, but the extra work would bring marginal, if any, gains in speed.

Colin

[perldog007]

I am also wondering what the watertribe would think of these boats. The Everglades challenge was mentioned, there's also their around Florida race which requires a 40 mile portage or some such. The amphibious nature of the Expedition ( being able to stow a decent folding bike and trailer ) and presumably the camper would seem a huge advantage.

Last I read Steve Isaacs was doing his long portage on foot hauling his kayak behind him on a dolly. I was actually thinking of the E.C. when I asked about a downwind sail. To this armchair observer it seems that such a camper would always have the upper hand on the sail boats unless the wind was on the beam.

Was it 2010 when the E.C. started into the wind going down the gulf coast? Can't see anybody catching a good rower in the camper after that start. '

[Dan St Gean]

Watertribe is very paddle/sail oriented, so not much. One guy that went by the handle Beastrowermade it to Sanibel this year. Making progress into a 20 knot headwind is tough in most any craft.

As for the Florida challenge, you'd have to do something about the width of the rig under oars to fir up the St. Mary's. Could it be paddled or sculled as well? Up near the top it's narrow and twisty--not the preferred course for a long rowboat.

Dan

[longrower]

If you're looking for straight-out performance, the Expedition would be a better boat since it is lighter and lower profile. You would however, need to sleep ashore, so the time savings could be negated. If you did it as a double, I think there are few craft that could outperform the Camper. Two people could alternate on the oars around the clock - one rowing, and one resting in the cabin. We may try breaking the circumnavigation record of Vancouver Island in this manner.

Twisty is fine - the boat can actually turn more quickly and easily than a kayak. Extremely narrow, however, isn't good. They can be paddled kayak style, but speed will be reduced dramatically.

[IanHowick]

I'm fascinated to follow your Vancouver Island circumnavigation in one of these boats, are you still deciding whether to take the Expeditions or the new Camper?

Thinking about the outside of Vancouver Island, how do these boats go running downwind in near gale-gale conditions and big seas? I remember on our outside Vancouver Island trip in sea kayaks, we did a lot of miles in these sort of conditions - coming around a big headland like the Brooks Peninsula or Estevan Point with 30 knots from the NW and surfing the waves offshore for another 20 km down the coast. We were quite comfortable running downwind in loaded sea kayaks with rudders in these conditions, but I wonder how the rowboat would go in this, how you would maintain control.

Ian

[longrower]

This year I'm going to be using the Expedition, and then we may use the Camper for a double attempt next year.

Yes, there will be some big winds along the NW coast of the island. Keeping the fingers crossed I'll be riding the NW'erlies, as opposed to the SE'erlies otherwise it's game over with regards to the record. The boats do well into moderate winds, but I won't be going anywhere against 30 knot winds and big waves.

The Expedition tracks very well in big waves and downwind runs - gets up surfing nicely. We've been in some gnarly stuff, but I suspect, I could be facing the biggest yet going around the island, so we'll see. It comes down to finessing the oars to keep it from broaching.

[wtarzia]

This is a lovely boat. It looks like a good Everglades Challenge boat except for during an adverse wind, but it seems pretty low. The requirement to "stealth camp" is my least favorite part of this event, and a boat like this solves that problem and even saves a little time making camp -- and some of those EC folk are very serious about saving ten minutes here and there (in fact, I think the overall winner this year won by 15 minutes against his 'arch rival' -- both boats going all out for ~35 hours). It makes me remember my one night anchored off Venice Inlet squished onto my 17 inch wide sleep-deck and waking up to rollers going by my ears. Yeah, I like the idea of this minimalist sleep-cockpit. Good man! -- Wade

[wtarzia]

On sails (I wasn't going to be the one to ask this, but I'm glad someone raised the topic :-) -- Lowells Boatshop used to make rowing dories (a little more slender than the traditional dories I think) with no centerboard or rudder, but they had a mast step for a drop-in down-wind sail (steer with an oar) that seemed very practical. It was no PAS kayak sail either, it was a real sail though perhaps a smaller than typical. When I had a dory and went out on rowing days, I plugged the daggerboard slot and left the rudder home, but of course I couldn't help but build a small downwind sail out of a painter's cloth and a 2x4, a little sprit sail. No wind, wind too high, or bad direction? Brail it up, lift it out, lay inside cockpit: 30 seconds. -- Wade

[Terry Haines]

For an efficiency point of view a sliding rigger and a sliding seat system should be exactly equivalent, the only difference being the mass of the rower, but that seems to be what makes the difference. The speed variation of the sliding seat system is greater with a higher peak speed for the same average speed and at its higher peak speed the sliding seat boat sheds more energy, but it recovers significantly less energy at its minimum speed, so overall it is harder to push along. I did a computer study some time back which suggested the difference amounts to several percent - vast fortunes are spent for improvements of a fraction of that.

[Dan St Gean]

For an efficiency point of view a sliding rigger and a sliding seat system should be exactly equivalent, the only difference being the mass of the rower, but that seems to be what makes the difference. The speed variation of the sliding seat system is greater with a higher peak speed for the same average speed and at its higher peak speed the sliding seat boat sheds more energy, but it recovers significantly less energy at its minimum speed, so overall it is harder to push along. I did a computer study some time back which suggested the difference amounts to several percent - vast fortunes are spent for improvements of a fraction of that.

Does that take into account the bobbing of the bow and alterations in trim that entails? I'm no rower, but that seems like it would allow for a more steady boat too. Just curious.

Dan

[Terry Haines]

Does that take into account the bobbing of the bow and alterations in trim that entails? I'm no rower, but that seems like it would allow for a more steady boat too. Just curious.

Dan

I didn't allow for bobbing and trim variations, just the speed. Bit of a discussion on the subject at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boa...-14250-55.html

I cannot persuade the forum image loader to display my picture - the smaller I make the file the less space allowance I seem to get . . .

[wtarzia]

Does that take into account the bobbing of the bow and alterations in trim that entails? I'm no rower, but that seems like it would allow for a more steady boat too.

--- Great idea, Dan. I wouldn't have thought of that. -- Wade

[JonW]

That was the main advantage of a sliding rigger over sliding seat - more stable fore-aft trim. Terry's point is also very valid - changing technique to reduce the max-min shell velocity oscillations is frequently discussed on rowing forums. I understand the FISA banned sliding riggers under the excuse of the cost of every boat being made instantly obsolete. Carbon fibre oars and boats and the newer blade shapes (e.g. hatchets) weren't banned as soon as they appeared because they didn't give a significant performance boost over the old technologies so the old could compete alongside the new, with the older equipment being replaced as it wore out.

The main disadvantage of a sliding rig in this application would seem to be it's relative complexity. The sliding seat is bullet proof, until the wheels fall off (a spare seat wouldn't take much space). The sliding rig requires more moving parts so has more places to fail.

Regards

Jonathan

[Terry Haines]

I found a nice report here http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...-bdn101110.pdf

Figure 7 is what I was trying to post earlier from my own much simpler calculations. I haven't studied it yet but there's a lot of good stuff here for the serious rower i think.

[perldog007]

I guess it depends on where you are, but here on the eastern Coast of the U.S., the camper looks to be about the perfect touring rowboat. Most of the shoreline near me is either.. Privately owned - no camping, public beach - no camping, or marsh - try it if you want to.

How do your leg muscles get used as efficiently with sliding rigger as with sliding seat?

[Clarkey]

I guess it depends on where you are, but here on the eastern Coast of the U.S., the camper looks to be about the perfect touring rowboat. Most of the shoreline near me is either.. Privately owned - no camping, public beach - no camping, or marsh - try it if you want to.

How do your leg muscles get used as efficiently with sliding rigger as with sliding seat?

Similar to the situation in most of the UK. This looks like a superb stealth camping boat.

[Three Cedars]

Congrats to Colin Angus ! He set a record for the fastest human powered circumnavigation around Vancouver Island . His butt will never forgive him .

http://www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver...125189083.html

[Clarkey]

I would be interested to know if any modifications have suggested themselves now that the prototype camper has been launched?

[longrower]

Thanks! Yes, the bottom is still sore. I put closed-cell foam on the seat, but still, things were a little tender. I haven't done any more rowing in the camper boat (the circumnavigation was done in an Expedition), but there are a couple of things I thought about going around the island that would apply to both boats:

Cockpit: I was a little concerned that the cockpit could get swamped in big seas. I had a bailer and sponge, but bailing takes time off the oars. A quicker process would be turning the boat on its side and allowing the water to flow out, but still not ideal (you'd probably end up swimming in the process). As it turned out, I never got more than a few gallons in the cockpit, and was able to mop it out quickly. In bigger seas (maybe storm-force conditions?) it could be a possibility. For those wishing to make the boat (this would apply to both the Camper and the Expedition) completely bombproof in big seas, the cockpit could be further shaped so that everything below the rowing tracks and foot well is sealed, with scuppers above the waterline to drain any water that comes on board.

Rowing Rig: I've used the same dimensions/angles for the rowing setup in our boats as competitive racing sculls. This includes having the oar handle overlap which allows greater reach, and slightly better performance. I'm now thinking it might be better not to have the overlap for rowing in rougher conditions - it makes things a little more challenging. I'm fairly used to it after years behind the oars, but I could see it being quite challenging for novice rowers. There is also more potential for damage if the oar handles collide.

[Clarkey]

Thanks! Yes, the bottom is still sore. I put closed-cell foam on the seat, but still, things were a little tender. I haven't done any more rowing in the camper boat (the circumnavigation was done in an Expedition), but there are a couple of things I thought about going around the island that would apply to both boats:

Cockpit: I was a little concerned that the cockpit could get swamped in big seas. I had a bailer and sponge, but bailing takes time off the oars. A quicker process would be turning the boat on its side and allowing the water to flow out, but still not ideal (you'd probably end up swimming in the process). As it turned out, I never got more than a few gallons in the cockpit, and was able to mop it out quickly. In bigger seas (maybe storm-force conditions?) it could be a possibility. For those wishing to make the boat (this would apply to both the Camper and the Expedition) completely bombproof in big seas, the cockpit could be further shaped so that everything below the rowing tracks and foot well is sealed, with scuppers above the waterline to drain any water that comes on board.

Rowing Rig: I've used the same dimensions/angles for the rowing setup in our boats as competitive racing sculls. This includes having the oar handle overlap which allows greater reach, and slightly better performance. I'm now thinking it might be better not to have the overlap for rowing in rougher conditions - it makes things a little more challenging. I'm fairly used to it after years behind the oars, but I could see it being quite challenging for novice rowers. There is also more potential for damage if the oar handles collide.

I suppose it might make sense to design the outrigger sponsons so that they stow in the cockpit, below the level of the seat tracks? That way you don't have to find space for them in the cabin when underway and they reduce the cockpit volume that can fill with water. Since they don't need to be hydrodynamic they could be simple box shapes that slot in neatly.

[longrower]

That's an excellent idea regarding creating box-shaped sponsons that slot into the cockpit well for additional buoyancy. Another big plus with that idea (instead of creating permanent buoyancy structure in the cockpit well) is it frees up foot room when you're anchored.

[Hemp_Bike]

That was the main advantage of a sliding rigger over sliding seat - more stable fore-aft trim. Terry's point is also very valid - changing technique to reduce the max-min shell velocity oscillations is frequently discussed on rowing forums.

Reducing min-max velocity oscillations seems the more compelling argument to me. Maintaining a constant speed is more efficient than maintaining an accelerating/decelerating speed. Furthermore, the boats have to be designed for the high peak speed. This makes them longer & narrower, which increases wetted surface and therefore drag.

Another advantage is control. With a longer drive and shorter recovery the oars are in the water more of the time so the boat is under better control. In wind and waves even the best designed ocean scull can go well off course during the glide. A wandering course takes longer to traverse than a straight one. Furthermore, part of the drive energy is wasted correcting the course. A rudder could compensate but that introduces a myriad of other compromises.

The main disadvantage of a sliding rig in this application would seem to be it's relative complexity. The sliding seat is bullet proof, until the wheels fall off (a spare seat wouldn't take much space). The sliding rig requires more moving parts so has more places to fail.

The sliding rigger version of the Row Wing(1) looks pretty much exactly the same as the sliding seat version(2)
(1) http://www.rowalden.com/pubsite11/in...d=93&Itemid=79
(2) http://www.rowalden.com/pubsite11/in...d=92&Itemid=78

So I'd love to try a sliding rigger and see how it goes. Having said all this I do see two potential problems for ocean rowing.
1. Connection to the boat.
When the sea gets up I greatly appreciate the strong sense of connectedness I get from my feet being strapped firmly to the boat. In a sliding rigger the feet are strapped to something that moves. Not so good. The bum, however, has to be strongly connected as this is where the drive is transmitted. For this reason sliding rigger setups all have a seat back of some sort. A seatbelt might even have some merit. However, the bum is round and relatively soft compared to the feet. I suspect it would be impossible to enjoy the same level of body-english boat-control in lumpy seas. There are times when I feel like I'm standing on the boat and very solidly controlling it with my feet.

2. Larger footwell.
The feet are the lowest part in a sculling system. The cockpit floor has to be lowest where the feet go. In a sliding seat setup the feet go nowhere so this area can be small. When swamped there'd be about one bucket of water hurting stability, speed & control until the bailer got rid of it. In a sliding rigger it could easily be four buckets worth, probably more.

An exercise evaluating all these pros & cons on the water would be very instructive. Unfortunately our club's ocean sculls (Maas Aeros & Maas 24s) can't take sliding riggers. But both Angus' "Expedition" & "Rowing Yacht" could. Perhaps that is reason enough to build one.

Finally, my thoughts on a suitable tent attached.

[Terry Haines]

There's also the front-facing rowing systems, as a kayaker/canoer I'm in favour of seeing where I am gong - there's a discussion thread on that here -


http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/front-rowing-system-canoe-37905.html

[upchurchmr]

The Sliding rigger I built for my wife and I used 6 wheels, 4 above the beams and 2 below. The 2 below were to insure the rigger was retained even when the boat was bouncing down the road in the back of my pickup. They actually don't do anything (I discovered). There doesn't seem to be any real merit to the comment there are more moving parts. On my crudely built boats the rigger certainly weighs more than on a sliding seat, but the sliding mass in motion is much less.

My boat is an 11' catamaran with very fine hulls. Pitching is not really visable. We are not serious rowers so no comment about efficiency.

"The main disadvantage of a sliding rig in this application would seem to be it's relative complexity. The sliding seat is bullet proof, until the wheels fall off (a spare seat wouldn't take much space). The sliding rig requires more moving parts so has more places to fail.

Regards

Jonathan[/QUOTE]

[scotd]

Those intersted in Collin's boat but wanting to sail might be interested in my current project, 18'LOA, 42" beam, aft cabin, hull shape similar to IC 10. I expect she'll be fun and fast to sail and not bad to row, though a bit slower than the Angus Cruiser. I expect to carry lots of sail in light winds, less and less as the wind increases. I IMAGINE covering longer distances with less effort than in a boat that's only rowed. We'll see. I'll be putting her together as soon as the weather warms enough for epoxy to cure outside. http://scotdomergueblog@wordpress.com if you want to follow along.

I've tried to insert a couple of images, but can't seem to make it work . . .

[upchurchmr]

Scotd,

Is it necessary to log in to see your blog?

[Dryfeet]

Those intersted in Collin's boat but wanting to sail might be interested in my current project, 18'LOA, 42" beam, aft cabin, hull shape similar to IC 10. I expect she'll be fun and fast to sail and not bad to row, though a bit slower than the Angus Cruiser. I expect to carry lots of sail in light winds, less and less as the wind increases. I IMAGINE covering longer distances with less effort than in a boat that's only rowed. We'll see. I'll be putting her together as soon as the weather warms enough for epoxy to cure outside. http://scotdomergueblog@wordpress.com if you want to follow along.

I've tried to insert a couple of images, but can't seem to make it work . . .

The link doesn't work. However if you type it in and substitute a 'dot' for the '@' sign, then you'll get to the blog. No log in req'd.

[upchurchmr]

Dryfeet, Thanks for the tip, I got in.

Scotd, interesting boat. have you thought about Frank Smoots sail and rig for this boat? He has a low CE, easy hoisting, and about the same area you are talking about, all based on using windsurfer masts like you have obtained. Check out the thread "slickest folder ever" @ boatdesign.net in the Multihulls section. Or go to his site DIY-tris.com and look for the 2012 section. Are you going to have a ballasted centerboard? Sorry if you said so , I'm in a hurry to get back out to starting a new Kayak.

Marc

[scotd]

Yes, my error when I typed in the url. It should be http://scotdomergueblog.wordpress.com/

Thanks for the suggestion on sail rig . . . I've seen his diy site - interesting boats! I'll continue to contemplate and play with the stuff I've found/received for sail rig and then experiment once the boat's built.

Current plan is a simple wood daggerboard, not ballasted. The cockpit side decks are flat, so should be reasonably comfortable to have body out over the water with feet in the well. I'd like to keep the whole thing as light and simple as possible. At the same time, it's all experimental! Once the basic boat is built, I'll try the easiest, simplest, lightest approaches - if they work well, great. If I can see or imagine better ways, I'll try them. Sail rig, daggerboard, rudder control (will try long tiller at first), sliding seat rowing (simple, short wood outriggers and seat tracks mounted to cockpit floor), etc. should all be easy enough to change.

[Ben Fuller]

Maybe the simplest downwind and reaching sail, and easy to set from a rowing boat or canoe is a small parafoil. Needs to get a fairlead forward. Could be tucked through a bite in a painter. Brian Schulz ( Cape Falcon Kayaks) used one with great success in a kayak trip down the Oregon coast.

Not sure the reason for a daggerboard if not sailing; if it is ahead of the rowing position or ahead of amidships the boat will be gripy; we have had success rowing a ducker ( pure double ender) backwards with a inch or two of daggerboard in the sailing daggerboard spot. If I did anything for trim control in a pure rowing boat I would install an adjustable skeg as seen in many seakayaks, or an after daggerboard.

[Terry Haines]

I admire a purist, and this is a purist boat. It’s meant for what it is meant for. I don’t think a sliding rig would change much, the boat must be far too heavy to accelerate and decelerate significantly through the rowing cycle, and there would be the extra complexity to worry about.

Even a pure rowing machine can still employ a simple downwind sail; for this boat I would recommend the fishing umbrella, folds away compactly when not in use, convenient handle hooks onto the coaming, doubles as a sunshade and - OMG - even works as a brolly . . . on a boat such as this everything needs to multitask

[wtarzia]

Those intersted in Collin's boat but wanting to sail might be interested in my current project, 18'LOA, 42" beam, aft cabin, hull shape similar to IC 10. . .

--- I like the idea. Aft cabin gets windage where it is of some use, in some situations, and I for one think even a rowing-orinted boat should have some kind of sail :-) Keep us posted. -- Wade