Sylph - Prof Howard Rice's sailing canoe

[keyhavenpotterer]

Here are some photo's of Sylph, Howard's sailing canoe. There are has been some tremendous 50/50 sailing canoe development in the US by the Horton/Rice/Gougeon team.

We are struggling a bit with Picasa web access for some reason so Howard sent me these wonderful pics to get the thread started.







and Bufflehead having fun

[keyhavenpotterer]

Here in the UK the developers of modern sailing canoes are Solway Dory. They have gone wider, at 40" and very firm bilged, more a 70/30 sailing canoe. I have one and they are fantastic sailing boats. Fast in light winds, super responsive, fast in strong winds too. Here's the more adventurous guys sailing round Jura

[tattooed john]

Must be a prof of canoe design. Any shots with the rig up? Looks to have alternative mast positions.

Lovely.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Here's one

[Rob Hazard]

Ooh, I wanna know more! What do you use for dry storage? Can the shelter be rigged while sitting in the boat? How hard is it to strike the rig for paddling? What's the all-up weight? Do you have just the one leeboard? Why do you use 2 push-pull tillers instead of just one?

[Howard Rice]

Rob
I use dry bags. Yes the shelter can be rigged while sitting in the boat. I usually don't though as it is easier to step out in a foot of water, move things around, set up the tent, bedding etc. On a few occasions I have pulled into a mangrove or marsh area and have either anchored, tied off to a nearby bush or tree and without getting out of the boat set up for sleeping. I sailed down the Hudson River one May a few years ago and slept aboard at anchor almost every night in spite of the cold temperatures. Inside a canoe tent is a small space and easy to heat up using a tiny stove like a whisperlight.

Striking the rig is quite easy. I roller furl the jib, release the tack and bring it back to the cockpit. I then lift up the boom lifting the mast with sail up out of the step and partners. I lay it down across my lap, release the halyards, pull the sail down, flake it and partially roll it around the boom after taking the boom apart. The mast then pulls apart into three tube sections with internal halyards keeping the parts in the right order. I stow the mast below and after a little more sorting away I paddle away. I carry three sails. Main (w deep reef), jib on roller furler (my first reef is the jib) and I carry a 2sq ft storm sail, yes 2 sq ft. I can hoist this on one mast section and if in hard times in very heavy air can sail down wind.

Sylph has two identical hand built carbon fiber 3 pc ovoid shaped unstayed masts with internal halyards and integral luff groove. Sylph can be rigged in several different configurations from cat rig to yawl. The 3 mast step locations are at the bow, at the forward end of the cockpit and just aft of the cockpit. Here booms are light wall aluminum with carbon over. I sail with a vang and traveler set up.

The all up weight with sliding decks, sail rig but no buoyancy bags, paddle, safety gear or anchor is about 70 pounds (guessing here but close).

I use nly one leeboard because one is all that is needed. Like most small boats canoes should be sailed flat. Given her narrow (I wish she was 31") beam of 34" keeping the blade in water is quite easy. One blade is simpler.

I like two tillers for a number of reasons. The #1 reason is I sail Sylph long distances and like to have as many sitting steering positions as possible. When I am sailing upwind in heavy air I sometimes use the leeward tiller and then switch to the weather tiller to spell my hands. I rarely cleat the main or jib sheets, my hands can get tired and so I like the option of switching tillers and sheets from hand to hand.

My tillers are a bit different than other canoe set ups I have seen. I have two BMW motorcycle cables (sheathed) that run through holes in the back of the coaming back to the rudder yoke. Inside the cockpit these cables run forward to a pedal steering set up. I often steer by feet alone and often using leverage against one pedal while steering with a tiller. Steering by foot is where it is at in a canoe. This frees my hands up for many tasks ranging from meal preparation while sailing, to navigating, repair, rigging, catnapping, etc.

Sylph is fully buoyant with airbags forward, aft and under the side decks. I have also lined her hull in removable cellular foam sheets. Makes for a cushy ride and makes her very safe. I often sail in open ocean here in Pohnpei and on occasion sail across the blue to Pakin or Ant atolls so buoyancy is important to me. I have actually just shipped Sylph back to the US.

I will still try to get other photos posted here but believe readers who are interested in sailing canoes can just go to Picasa and type in "Sailing Canoe Sylph". I have posted forty some photos there and I believe the public album setting is working.

If not let me know.
howard

[Howard Rice]

https://picasaweb.google.com/1102899...ingCanoeSylph#

[ian scott]

Can't acces your photos Howard.

https://picasaweb.google.com/1102899...ingCanoeSylph#

"Oops... there's nothing to see here. Either you do not have access to these photos, or they don't exist at this web address. Please contact the owner directly to gain access."

[wtarzia]

That seat is clever -- what looks like "arm rest/pads" are the hiking pads I guess, but I imagine that in a longer cruise of a few days, having a paddled gunwale to rest and protect the elbows a little is not a bad idea. Sailing that athletically on a longer cruise would be a quite a challenge though, it would seem.

The 40" width of the Solway canoes is close to the Fenger "Yakaboo" which I believe was 39 inches. I wonder if this sort of beam is a good all-around limit for the "70-30" canoe?

I keep thinking that we should be hearing more about "Yakaboo" -- especuially after the WB article on it a few years ago -- but somewhy we (or I) almost never do. Is this design more or less superceded by ruddered sailing canoes, or did it have design flaws (aside from the difficult to realize sliding centerboard) of some kind? -- Wade

[keyhavenpotterer]

It would be great to sail Sylph or Bufflehead side by side with my SD Shearwater. All three are great boats. The 40" beam works great for me, I find these SD designs as easy to sail as any dinghy. They also paddle, double paddle and row well. The Adirondack Guideboat is a very similar width.

Here's a video of paddle/sailing a Shearwater.

[keyhavenpotterer]

I keep thinking that we should be hearing more about "Yakaboo" -- especuially after the WB article on it a few years ago -- but somewhy we (or I) almost never do.- Wade

Wade have you seen this modern yakaboo inspired build? http://yakaboo2.blogspot.com/2008/09...t-designs.html

[Rob Hazard]

Howard, I hope you took pictures of the layup of those carbon fiber masts! They sound pretty sophisticated.

I'm sure that with a 34" beam and you lying down inside, Sylph is pretty stable, but would it be easy to exit from your tent if you should capsize at night? I only ask because the "dreaded wet exit" is the first thing we teach budding sea kayakers in our local paddling club.

My current boat is a 17' cat-ketch, a Herreshoff Coquina, that behaves more like a very beamy sailing canoe than like a modern racing dinghy. I'm fooling around with details to make it suitable for camp cruising, so I'm poring over all the pictures you post with keen interest!

[Howard Rice]

Hey Rob
Still trying to work out the Picasa web album issue. I may give up and go with a different site so I can get the photos I have put up posted here.
The masts were actually quite simple, they just sound complicated.
Sleeping aboard is much more stable than one would think. I have carefully thought through the capsize question. Here is my simple rule: I only anchor out and sleep aboard in water under one foot deep or in water at least five feet deep. In a foot or less I would simply tip over on my side and bail out. In five or so feet of water I can easily elect out of the cockpit (the tent edges pull away easily if I have to get out). In water between one and five feet is where I perceive the danger to be. If I capsize in 2-3 ft of water I may be pinned between the canoe and the bottom. To date after many nights aboard including one windy cold spring sail down the Hudson River I have never capsized. I have a very specific sleep aboard protocol I follow to make sure I end up inside my canoe without wet feet and wet cockpit.

[Howard Rice]

Hey Rob
Still trying to work out the Picasa web album issue. I may give up and go with a different site so I can get the photos I have put up posted here.
The masts were actually quite simple, they just sound complicated.
Sleeping aboard is much more stable than one would think. I have carefully thought through the capsize question. Here is my simple rule: I only anchor out and sleep aboard in water under one foot deep or in water at least five feet deep. In a foot or less I would simply tip over on my side and bail out. In five or so feet of water I can easily eject out of the cockpit (the tent edges pull away easily if I have to get out). In water between one and five feet is where I perceive the danger to be. If I capsize in 2-3 ft of water I may be pinned between the canoe and the bottom. To date after many nights aboard including one windy cold spring sail down the Hudson River I have never capsized. I have a very specific sleep aboard protocol I follow to make sure I end up inside my canoe without wet feet and wet cockpit.
Let me know if you want more specific detail.

[PaulC]

Would some sleep 'flopper stoppers' take the nervousness out the mid range roll concern?

[callsign222]

Are you right clicking the picture and using the image address under properties? No Picasa issues here. I have not been necessarily following the board lately, so if you have tried this or it has been suggested, please disregard.

Loved your interview series in SCA!

[Rob Hazard]

Thanks, Howard,
I know what you mean about the critical element of water depth. I've found myself stuck upside down against a sandy bottom in a kayak more than once. It's an amusing episode during a surfing session, but I'd hate to awaken to it in the dead of night! I like the easy-release tent edges.

I was going to ask about how you keep your sleeping bag dry in a boat that small...

That twilight picture with the backlit tent looks pretty idyllic!

[wtarzia]

I only slept one night in my cockpit during the Everglades Challenge, and after that I saw the need for a very well worked out protocol if this was to be done regularly. I was in an outrigger, so tipping-over problems were not my problem. My cockpit was tight and shallow (22 inches wide and tapering fore and aft, and with uprights in the way the useful sleepining beam is about 16 inches, with ~6.5 inches depth to the sleep-deck, which was about 10 inches over waterline -- just enough to lay on my back with arms crossed coffin-style).

I was more afraid of waking up, not knowing where I was, and somehow tumbling out of the cockpit into water. Maybe that sounds stupid, but it is what I was thinking about. An old-timer in the EC had told me during a campfire gathering that I was not to worry -- you are aware of where you are when you sleep, he said, and the chances are highly unlikely you will awake in a terror and fall out. Nevertheless when I found myself at 3 AM needing to rest after ahard day, I found what seemed a safe spot off the coast in the pitch dark. The anchor suggested I was in 15 feet of water, and light surf could be heard somewhere to the east a 100 or 200 feet out.

The first thing I found was that my big center compartment with 14 inch Bomar hatch was not packed perfectly. Things now needed for sleep were too far back, and the cockpict offered no good place to stack the stuff while I probed and rummaged. So I got out of dry-suit and put on fleece jacket and GorTex, hat, and waterproof pants over my day pants, and wet-suit socks. I pulled a poncho over that and tucked it under feet and wrapped in my hands. Very pleasant passing-out, watching the masts wave against the stars....

I woke up shivering, not sure how long later, maybe an hour -- very cold despite that it was only 55-60 degrees with light mist. I had awakened with the poncho still wrapped around my hands, and I knew exactly where I was --good. I pawed through the gear under deck, piling food bags and gear bags under and behind me until I got the sleeping bag out, then stuffed the stuff back in. I then tucked the unzipped mummy bag under my feet and held its top edge in my hands, now warm enough to sleep. I awoke to dawn, bird calls, and a big swell coming in from some Gulf storm that in another two hours would create a wild sea. I was glad I had slept in my clothes -- woke up instantly, raised sails, hauled anchor, and got out as the rollers started steepening.

However, again the EC old-timer had been correct. Despite my very amateur 'real regular guy' status in the sailing world, my body knew where it was despite extreme exhaustian. Even so, I do not think I would have gotten into either my mummy bag or my bivvy-sack unless I was camping ashore, or in a deeper cockpit. The loosely-draped mummy bag worked well for the mild night, but for colder nights, I would want to be deeper in in the hull before being ensconced in gear I cannot get out of easily. I had meant to (and ran out of time) to sew connections inside my sleeping bag foot and bivvy sack foot so that (1) they would clip together and (2) the grouped unit could be clipped to the hull at the feet so that Imight be able to better wriggle out of the set during some unlikely necessity. I still see nothing bad in that idea.

Contra to that idea, Ray sleeps on his "Slider" catamaran platform with no real side-supports keeping him on, though I am not sure if he does this while zipped up into a sleeping bag -- Ray?

Reflecting on Howard Rice's comments on sleeping aboard, I like the way his tent is made to rip off if he capsizes. In an outrigger not imemdiately threatened by capsize at anchor (at least one with very buouyant amas) perhaps a more permanently attached bimini-arrangement is OK --like the one on the Tridarka Raider trimaran, designed by Matt Layden, easy up, easy down.

An interesting discussion, and inspiring to learn more about boats that are the true "poor man's yacht" as someone famous said in the early days of the developing cruising canoe. The way the world is going, a good idea is becoming a fantastic idea! -- Wade

[Howard Rice]

Hi Wade
Sylph photos in Photobucket.
First off I have (with no time on my hands, too busy) have set up a photobucket account under the name "pocketyot" with a sign in password of "12sail" for anyone wishing to view two photo albums of my canoe Sylph. Hope this helps anyone interested in the fascinating and versatile modern sailing canoe.

Wade a short story about sleeping aboard. A few springs ago I sailed a prototype wood sailing canoe down the length of the Hudson River (it was May, cold and windy). As I traveled south and finally hit tidal water I began timing my sailing time with the ebb tides. I would pull in close to shore, set up the tent, set my alarm and go to sleep often waking at 1am or 2am or later to catch the ebb cycle south. A fast way to do the Hudson, which is a fantastic and challenging trip. One night I pulled in behind a small spit of land on the eastern shore. It had been a long day of almost fifty miles. I went ashore, cooked up dinner and poked around the woods and train tracks as the sun set. I tucked in for the night anticipating a 3am wake up alarm, striking of camp and sailing south. I was tucked in and sound asleep when i train whistle in the distance woke me up. I listened for a moment slightly disoriented from waking up and heard it again. I pulled the tent back and looked south in the dark and to my shock and sleep fog I saw the train coming straight at me. I had anchored about 100 feet off shore and during the tide change Sylph had moved right against the shoreline. I immediately panicked as my brain could not figure how in the world a speeding train could be on a collision bearing with my anchored canoe. I tore the tent off and piled out in waist deep very cold water only to watch as the train sped by feet away. As I woke from the sleep fog I began to laugh like a crazy man as I waded to shore with dry clothes in hand. The spot where I anchored was on a slight bend in the train track. As the train appeared (one bright light apparently from hell) it was aimed right at me tucked up against the shoreline no more than fifty feet from the track. OK an embarrassing moment and a side splitter now that I look back on it. Broke camp and sailed away for a five hour jaunt that landed me in a small town for breakfast at 6am, nice.
Some nights I pulled Sylph on shore and slept aboard, three nights I used my tent when I could not find a calm near shore spot. When I arrived n Manhattan having Sylph set up for sleep aboard was perfect. I have friends in the city but elected to sleep aboard instead of in an apartment. I was afraid to leave Sylph for the night. I found several great anchoring and/or tie up spots where I slept safely awaking to the din of the city after miles of challenging sailing down the river. A fantastic experience and one I hope to repeat.
Best,
howard

[Howard Rice]

Hello All
On Photobucket there is a second album titled
"Sailing Canoe Sylph and a Few Other Boats"

[Howard Rice]

OK one last thing before I head off for a day of work. If anyone would like to post photos of my canoe from Photobucket here please feel free.
Respectfully,
howard

[keyhavenpotterer]

Thanks, these are super pictures, Brian

[Howard Rice]

[/IMG]

[Howard Rice]

[/IMG]

[Howard Rice]

Yea! I posted a photo!
This is Sylph coming in from the ocean in Pohnpei. Ahead is the fringing reef and Lenger island. This is the day I tested the new theory of capsizing before being hit by a squall. The wind has just come up from about 8 knots (see the relatively flat water) and is increasing very quickly. I have just taken in the first reef by rolling up the jib. When I snapped this photo the wind was building and likely 15-18 and I was starting to fly trying to get to the squall line to test my theory. The squall is to the right and going left in the photo. Just before reaching the front I purposely capsized leaving Sylph on her side. I hopped in the water and stayed in the lee of the cockpit. When the squall hit I had (I am guessing) 40 or so knots of blasting air and horizontal rain. I was safe and stable yet stung by the rain, very painful. After the squall passed (about 15 minutes) I righted Sylph, jumped in, bailed a few scoops and was off and on my way. Experiment successful and now in my quiver of small boat/canoe sailing survival moves.

[Howard Rice]

[/IMG]

[Howard Rice]

[Howard Rice]

Ready for the 25 miler across open ocean to Pakin Atoll. Running lights, aft deck pack with tent.

[Howard Rice]

One more time. Ready for my December cruise to Pakin Atoll. Boat cart is collapsible. After I roll her in I take it apart and strap it on top of the aft deck pack. When I reach shore I take it off in knee deep water, strap it on and roll Sylph across rocks, through sand, coral etc. A very nice tool for the pocket cruiser.

[Howard Rice]

Sailing out to sea approaching Middle Pass Pohnpei. Yes I have a life jacket. It is behind the seat.

[Howard Rice]

Test sailing the new Bufflehead design on a cold Michigan October day. I had flown in from Micronesia and Hugh Horton and I couldn't wait to give Bufflehead a go. It was a cold but exhilarating day and Bufflehead sailed very well, a fine canoe hull/deck design.

[Howard Rice]

Sylph in for maintenance before the Pakin Atoll two way crossing. In this photo I have her sliding decks off and the aft airbag and foam floor can be seen. The decks are simple to remove by releasing two fastex buckles on each. The decks don't leak and make for very comfortable sailing (less sun on legs, good platforms for mounting hardware, good seating as i often sit up on the aft deck, etc). The sliding aspect increases the cockpit size by one foot making for more or less (yeah right) spacious living space. I have become very comfortable and accustomed to sleeping aboard. I have a place for everything I carry and I try to carry as little as possible.

[Howard Rice]

A good photo of my leeboard bracket set up and the self steering arrangement. On each tiller I have two shock cords rigged and a tennis ball. I simply get on my desired course and begin adjusting the shock cords on each tiller against the placement of the tennis balls. IN a moment I have her dialed in and tracking straight enough that I can navigate, cook, read a book, etc. The photo also shows the construction of her spanish cedar deck (a fairing labor of love as spanish cedar is itchy stuff). Her deck is strip planked over a mold then covered in s glass with kevlar underneath. Kevlar was used in the construction of the cockpit coaming. Looks a little rudimentary I know but this is a work finish sailing boat in spite of her epoxy/varnished deck. I sail her hard so she has to be strong and a little bit elegant. I often sail her in Pohnpei in winds over 28 knots sometimes reefed down I have experimented in 30+ knots. That is a wild mistake free ride for certain and not for the faint hearted. Sylph goes very fast. In heavy air sailing canoes can be a hand full. Concentration is everything so I often sail with my ipod tuned in to Beethoven or Mozart. Take away the sound and the scene becomes, well quite pleasant without the noise. This helps me concentrate, fun stuff.

[Howard Rice]

The poor mans tropical bimini. Very effective.

[Howard Rice]

Pre roller furler.

[Howard Rice]

Not just a canoe sailor. Two of my other rides. Sorry I know this is supposed to be a canoe discussion but this the Woodenboat Forum and these are both stick built. Like most here I am incurable wood boat romantic.

[Howard Rice]

I built Sylph with a few friends pitching in hands (even my wife Keiko) to be a world cruising pocket yacht and this is how she crosses oceans. In a big cardboard box inside a container on a ship. Right now she is somewhere in the middle of the Pacific headed to the US for some sailing ,exploring and hopefully the coming Woodenboat show as a small visiting yacht on site to enjoy the show. Next I hope to box her up and ship her to GB and from there sail on to visit Europe. Little snippets of time are all the pocket yacht sailor needs. I am less interested in long blue water crossings (having made my fair share) than the places I sail toward to explore. So this whole pocket yachting thing is where it is at for me. My 20ft cutter Blueberry is about as large a boat as I desire any more. My two wood Tremolinos are longer but very light and easily towed behind a car or small pick up.
I have found that sailors on larger cruising boats almost always throw open their lives to us who choose small boats and a nicer more thoughtful group of sailors would be hard to find. I have many times heard, "Wow now I wish I was sailing a small boat. You have so much freedom". Nice

[wtarzia]

...This is the day I tested the new theory of capsizing before being hit by a squall. .

--- Interesting. Some Polynesian outrigger sailors have used a version of this method -- swamping their proa purposely before or during a big blow, and as part of the water, the proa suffers far less stress. -- Wade

[wtarzia]

... I immediately panicked as my brain could not figure how in the world a speeding train could be on a collision bearing with my anchored canoe. ...

--- Well, I have heard squall stories, capsize stories, dismasting stories, shark stories, and others, but I think this is one story I am REALLY going to remember! What else could you have done? Nothing, when you really think about. A sailor being used to such fantastic events must keep an open mind to the possibility that one's boat might have drifted onto train tracks. Gives new meaning to the term "liminality." Thanks for getting all those photos out there. Now I gotta go out and earn me some stories before I die :-) -- Wade

[wtarzia]

[... I have become very comfortable and accustomed to sleeping aboard. I have a place for everything I carry and I try to carry as little as possible.

--- If you have an equipment list typed up somewhere, I would love to see the details, from sails to socks. Seeing what people carry or do not carry is always helpful. --Wade

[Dan St Gean]

Howard,

What makes you want a boat that's 31" of beam should you ever build again? What do you use for your bailing system? Is your 34" beam stable enough to not need a paddle to keep stable while you bail? have you ever used side air tanks on a boat like that to augment the flotation air bags? How much endurance do you have to have to be able to sail on lengthy cruises? I'm a multihull guy, so I'm a bit more reliant on the amas to counteract the heeling forces. You know that well having a Tremolino.

I love to sail on anything though...what are your thoughts on your sailing canoe vs. a small multi like are so frequently seen in the islands? Is there a list of advantages/disadvantages that pushed you towards the sailing canoe?

Like wade, I'd also be interested in equiptment lists and sailing cruise stories. I find it interesting how much camp cruising there is with kayaks and small monos, yet there is little being done with small multis--and all of those seem to favor trimarans.

Dan

[keyhavenpotterer]

I find it interesting how much camp cruising there is with kayaks and small monos, yet there is little being done with small multis--and all of those seem to favor trimarans. Dan

The leading Uk developers of modern sailing canoes also build lightweight canoe tri's. Here they are camp cruising around Jura.



The boat along side at 30 seconds is their Shearwater with outriggers fitted.

Brian

[Dan St Gean]

The leading Uk developers of modern sailing canoes also build lightweight canoe tri's. Here they are camp cruising around Jura.



The boat along side at 30 seconds is their Shearwater with outriggers fitted.

Brian

Thanks Brian,

I've often wondered why there's limited beachcat based cruiser development for the same purpose. Lots of monos and tris but almost no cats.

Dan

[wtarzia]

... I find it interesting how much camp cruising there is with kayaks and small monos, yet there is little being done with small multis--and all of those seem to favor trimarans.

--- Especially here in new England, where the coast is almost all privately owned. -- W

[peterchech]

Thanks Brian,

I've often wondered why there's limited beachcat based cruiser development for the same purpose. Lots of monos and tris but almost no cats.

Dan

From what I have seen most cat sailors are interested in all out speed way more than they are interested in camp-cruising. I personally fear cruising long distances in beach cats for two reasons: lack of easy paddling, and lack of internal storage space (slightly illogical since there is plenty of space on the tramp).

Wait one more: lack of long term comfort (nowhere to sit "upright").

You could fix this by giving up those slim efficient hulls for beamier ones that will take more gear etc., but at that point you might as well do a trimaran. (Ray and Dan may disagree naturally :-)... once you have two big hulls, it loses the advantages of lightweight, easy transport, low cost, and probably speed.

Really interesting about swamping the canoes before a squall. Would the polynesians then just do as howard did and hang on for dear life? What about if the rough weather didn't blow through in "15 minutes"? Wouldn't a swamped canoe get more dangerous after several hours? (hypothermia, getting separated from the canoe, etc.)?

[Howard Rice]

Hi Peter
In response to your posting. When I was in under grad school I owned a Hobie 16 and cruise/camped it. It was a marginal experience for the reasons you mentioned. I tied duffle bags with plastic bags inside (college students dry bag) on the trampoline. I have a multihull friend Russell Brown who for a few years cruised a Tornado singlehanded. A fast ride but I believe tough to maneuver in close to beaches etc. Russell and I were together while I was recently in Port Townsend conducting the Scamp capsize tests and talked at length about his Tornado cruising.

Here are a few photos of Micronesian sailing canoes. I sail Micronesian canoes and have been around Marshallese canoes but have not yet sailed one. The Polynesian canoes are not vastly different from the boats I am used to sailing here. I have not heard of Polynesians or Micronesians purpose capsizing. Perhaps in very small lagoon canoes but I wonder if it is feasible seeing these canoes do not have flotation or any sort of buoyancy.

When I did the purpose capsizing before the approaching line squall I found the experience to be very stable, non stressful and perhaps perversely fun not to mention successful. The water here is very warm. I do sail small boats in very cold water and I would again capsize Sylph before a pending line squall even if the water was cold. I typically dress for the venues I sail and would have a dry suit on.

Based on the buoyancy set up I have built into Sylph I know she would float high and dry for a long time if needed. Of course the solid strategy would be to strike the rig before an approaching squall and slowly paddle in place facing into the wind. This is what I often do but now with the new method I plan to explore the purpose capsize strategy further. Sylph is so light that I can flip her back up with one hand and re enter easily.

I believe the modern sailing canoe (thoughtfully put together) is one of the most versatile small boats around. It may seem a stretch for folks to believe but I have found my sailing canoes to be far more stable and predictable than most small dinghies I have sailed. Folks here see me heading out in big air and many express concern. I suppose if I didn't know canoes I would be concerned too.

I will try to find some time to answer the gear and other questions posed by Wade and Dan
Respectfully,
howard
[IMG][IMG][IMG][IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG][/IMG]

[Howard Rice]

A few more photos of Micronesian sailing canoes and my friends (master canoe carvers)

[Howard Rice]

Perhaps. Just more stuff to carry. It is hard to envision an actual roll over at night. My real worry is powerboat wakes. If bad weather is pending I will typically stay on shore in my tent.

[Dan St Gean]

From what I have seen most cat sailors are interested in all out speed way more than they are interested in camp-cruising. I personally fear cruising long distances in beach cats for two reasons: lack of easy paddling, and lack of internal storage space (slightly illogical since there is plenty of space on the tramp).

Wait one more: lack of long term comfort (nowhere to sit "upright").

You could fix this by giving up those slim efficient hulls for beamier ones that will take more gear etc., but at that point you might as well do a trimaran. (Ray and Dan may disagree naturally :-)... once you have two big hulls, it loses the advantages of lightweight, easy transport, low cost, and probably speed.

Really interesting about swamping the canoes before a squall. Would the polynesians then just do as howard did and hang on for dear life? What about if the rough weather didn't blow through in "15 minutes"? Wouldn't a swamped canoe get more dangerous after several hours? (hypothermia, getting separated from the canoe, etc.)?

I just lost a long post. Arrgh. Anyhow Peter, I agree with all of your points and had some of my own after the '08 Texas 200. It's really annoying being soaked for 5+ hours & sleeping aboard a trampoline means rolling into the middle--not fun if your crew isn't attractive or doesn't smell good.


Note the lack of freeboard and the less than comfortable seating position on the H18. Trapping isn't super comfy either...


Note the 12" of overall freeboard aft. That makes for a really wet ride.

After doing the T200 on a 600 dollar beachcat with no real troubles save for kick up rudder issues, I saw value in the concept if it were tweaked a bit. Here's a little list I made at the time:


(overall) Lessons learned--

• Hydrate!
• Test sail under challenging conditions or in our case at all.
• Be ready to render assistance to others if possible.
• Mosquitos like me, but I already knew that.
• Brian is the finest kind of crew. Lots of great people are into sailing small boats.
• Driving 28 hours straight through stinks.
• Staying at the motel in Port Mansfield was great, but renting a condo with a slip would be even better.
• UV'd out plastic rudders that are 27 years old aren't too great for reliability.
• Set rudder tension to pop up easily.
• The fiberglass rods I used are designed to be sacrificial and were.

Boat performance and related issues--

• Gary's Tamanu is a winner of a boat. It goes together quickly compared to my Ulua. The footwells are super for comfort. Fully decked canoes are great for seaworthiness. Double enders don't really mind overloading the stern much.
• That said, a transom will be more buoyant and easier to find hardware for rudders.
• Using rigs from other boats on current projects is fantastic! I couldn't have afforded or had even remotely enough time to build an entire boat. Using a proven rig and copying a dialed in boat's geometry saved lots of headaches.
• Cats are super comfortable.
• Combining rigid bolt connections with lashings wasn't a really great idea. I should have used a non stretch line for the lashing rather than the crappy nylon line that allowed so much independent movement.
• Leading the sidestays out to a point wider than the end of the beams introduced a turning movement only intensified by using such stretchy lashing line.
• Not gooping up the rudder hardware was a mistake as well. We had to bail the watertight (or almost in the port hull's case) sections in the stern since the hardware had 4 spots in each stern allowing water intrusion.
• Don't use crappy caulking from Lowes for bedding hatches even if you're in a hurry.
• Have a deep reef point in the main.
• Lots of helm running in a sloop without a polled out jib or something.
• This hull is great for outrigger use, but it is an awesome cat platform as well.
• An 8'6" beam boat has so many advantages over it's wider counterpart, I'd have to think long and hard about a reason to go wider in a beachcruising design or one that is going to be set up and taken down for less than 2 weeks at a stretch. Or even more. After reading about the 32' Gougeon cats, I'm tempted to include costal cruising in there as well.
• If I'd have had the time, it would have been better to have box beams rather than the fragile Hobie beams. They weren't built for the stress of such large hulls.
• It's stupid that beachcats don't have reef points standard. Even the long distance guys in the Worrell or similar didn't have them--that's not so smart. In the case of cruising, its about slowing down to an acceptable level and keeping it pointy side up.

Gary Dierking's initial take on the Tamanu as cat idea after a little badgering...I hope I'm not too beg a pest.

My hulls showing the good storage options & the footwells.

Launching Version 1.0 into 20+ knots & having to get upwind of those nasty steel pilings.

Version 1.0 pulled up the beach. This shows it's size compared to a regular beachcat.

Since this thread is really about Howard's slick sailing canoe, I'll stop there. I just find it interesting that there's nothing out there like a larger volume cat. There's two good ideas out there in Mike Leneman's Beachcruiser 22 and Michael schacht's Beachcruiser, but no plans and virtually no production models. There's the old Pacific cat 19 and the Hobie 21SC, but they don't really address Peter's concerns nor mine. Ray put together a solid boat that's working for him and several others are in build, but it doesn't tick all of my personal boxes. I think there's room for improvement in my double tamanu build, but it gets pretty close for a hull intended for an outrigger or trimaran.


I'm just not quite sure why the small cat get short shrift compared to the tri. Beachcats are ubiquitous, but few think they can be built with a bit more buoyancy, freeboard, or with accessable hatches. Seriously, there are a bunch of guys using Hobie AI's for pretty big adventures and those have plenty of shortcomings to offset their strengths. Here's my take subject to revision or pursuasion on why I like cats in this size range:

Can be built to trailerable beam and thus launch more quickly than most tris of the same length.
Can have a nice level platform to set up a tent with minimal rocking at anchor vs a tri either having immersed amas at rest (slower) or raised amas (slapping back and forth unless accounted for)
Can be sit inside like Ray's Slider or sit on deck with comfortable footwells like the Tamanu hull just the same as the Windrider or the Seaclipper 20
Can sport a big rig for light air and be reefable jsut the same as a tri--here the tri wins out a bit as it can have a larger righting arm and thus carry more sail longer--but if either capsize the beachcat based boat is easier to right.
Can be quite fast or docile.

It just seems there's been little development of the type. I've heard plenty of beachcat sailors just say "use what you have". That's ok. But it doesn't develop the type at all. I can see why Howard didn't much like cruising the H16. Heck I didn't like cruising the H18 and I consider it miles better as a cat. The Tornado really doesn't lend itself to cruising either unless the rig is reefable and the platform is altered until it's not a Tornado any longer. Peter's right on all accounts. Beachcats have shortcomings as cruisers. But as I see it they are easily correctable ones & certainly not worthy of ditching the breed due to thier racing bretheren. I need something less finicky than a thoroughbred. I don't need a packhorse though.

If someone more adept at design than myself could put something down on paper that is the design from scratch beachcat cruiser, it sure would be interesting to see.

Dan (and I'll take this to the proa and outrigger thread if it doesn't fit here Howard)

[Howard Rice]

A few more photos. I have been received a few emails regarding canoe stability. Seems like there are sailors intrigued by the modern sailing canoe but put off because the canoe has a bad reputation in a couple of regards, which is unfortunate.
1. Canoes are thought of as very unstable- Not true. Canoes are lightweight and if sailed following the approach that sailing one is a simple understanding of the interaction (force/counter force) of canoe, sail rig and the moving weight of the sailor. Canoes are very stable if sailed in balance.
2. Canoes are aluminum or plastic from places like Walmart. OK these are canoes but not the evolved canoe that some folks use today. There are many new wood and other material designs evolving all the time.

Photo of Sylph handling a big puff of wind in very skinny water. I have just come in through/over the reef, a real challenge when going fast.
Some of my Yapese canoe sailing friends on a day when we got the village canoe going very fast. These guys do not fly the ama. I have convinced them to do so and on this particular day we flew the ama and had the canoe sailing very fast.

Hope my postings here have inspired a few sailors to try a canoe.