Gartside 116A

[John Bailey]

Ah ! Thank you, 10" seems a very good idea unless narrower with a lot of sweep were available? Just sorting out my ideas Stephane .

5'8" headroom .. just right for me! I'm 5'7" too ..the perfect height for a sailor on a small yacht .

I'm just 6' with a bad back. I noticed looking at the Bristol Channel Cutter site that they could build the boat up to 6'4" headroom by raising the cabin and also the bulwark/toerail to keeps the looks the same. I wrote to Mr. Gartside about the possibility of doing this with 116A and he said as long as you didn't make the bulwark higher than 7" it should be OK.

I did a drawing of this. Ill scan it when I get home. It gave me 6'1" above the galley, which is where I needed it.

John

[JoshuaIII]

Really looking forward to see that john, by curiosity as I love seeing tall guy struggling in my boat... The only place where we can laugh a bit of them

[John Bailey]

Really looking forward to see that john, by curiosity as I love seeing tall guy struggling in my boat... The only place where we can laugh a bit of them

Below you'll find the original Gartside drawing of 116A followed by my modified rendition.

The main difference is the higher coach roof. I tend to like the looks of the more level coach roof line, but that's a matter of taste.

In my letter to Mr. Gartside I asked about a few things. First, to gain more headroom, I would raise the coach roof 4" at the main hatch and make level across the roof. My measurements showed that this would allow me to raise the cabin sole 1" and thereby widen the space a few inches between settees. This would give me 6'1" headroom throughout the cabin under the coach roof.

To make the boat look better with the raised coach roof, and to provide a better margin of safety, raise the bulwork/toerail 3" to 8". This is where Mr. Gartside said it would be good not to raise it over 7".

Again, for looks, I would raise the coaming (this would be more comfortable for my aging back also) and front hatch 3".

I also asked about raising the boom 6" inches to accommodate a dinghy aft the mast.

I felt a bit nervous about suggesting changes to a successful designer, but Paul has been very gracious with his responses and only said to keep the toerail at 7"

By the way, if anyone has suggestion as to how to make the pictures bigger, I'm all ears. I'm using photo bucket.

John

[RFNK]

With Photobucket, I save images as jpegs in whatever imaging software I'm using. I save the images at about 5cm x 5 cm then upload them to Photobucket. From Photobucket I paste the IMG code into the WBF thread.

Rick

[John Bailey]

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG]

Thanks RFNK!

John

[RFNK]

Thank you John! Nice looking boat!

Rick

[JoshuaIII]

Thanks john that give some ideas... Hung under plank today it's nice to see the shape!

Looking forward to see yours getting build... Any thought of when it's gonna start?

[John Bailey]

Thanks john that give some ideas... Hung under plank today it's nice to see the shape!

Looking forward to see yours getting build... Any thought of when it's gonna start?

Hi Stephane,

Right now I'm finishing my shop. That'll probably take another month. I promised myself I wouldn't start another project till it was completely done. It's been 7 years and I need to finish it. After that I'm going to Greece for a month. I have an affection for Greece and I would like to be there for their national elections in April. When I get back I'll start work on a Gartside 10' dinghy. I've not built with solid wood in traditional methods before and this will give me good practice.

Then, it'll be on to the 116A. Unlike you, Stephane, I'm not a young man and I realize I may or may not finish this build. I've got lots on my "bucket list" that may take me away from this project at times and progress will be slow. Ah, but what an extraordinary way to spend one's autumn, and possibly winter, years as to build such a beautiful thing as a wooden cruising boat.

John

[JoshuaIII]

That's sound like a nice plan John, plenty of work to keep you occupied for a while

If you follow the plan of Paul with steam bent frames & cedar planking you will save about 1 year and few thousand dollars of fastening... The rivet are about 6 or 7 times bigger for the saw frames as they need to be long, on about 2 or 3000 rivets it start to pile up at the end.

All things considered that's what the saw frames took us, 1 year full time alone. Making patterns, Cutting futtock, riveting, cutting, raising, aligning, fairing. As Paul design have floors that do not touch the frames you don't waste time there either with steam bent... Anyway my 2 cents worth...

We choose double saw frames as we lost our 3 last boat because of stuck in a remote country with a broken boat which needed major work & power tools. That's why we took decision to have a boat that you can repair entirely with tools you carry onboard...

[John Bailey]

That's sound like a nice plan John, plenty of work to keep you occupied for a while

If you follow the plan of Paul with steam bent frames & cedar planking you will save about 1 year and few thousand dollars of fastening... The rivet are about 6 or 7 times bigger for the saw frames as they need to be long, on about 2 or 3000 rivets it start to pile up at the end.

All things considered that's what the saw frames took us, 1 year full time alone. Making patterns, Cutting futtock, riveting, cutting, raising, aligning, fairing. As Paul design have floors that do not touch the frames you don't waste time there either with steam bent... Anyway my 2 cents worth...

We choose double saw frames as we lost our 3 last boat because of stuck in a remote country with a broken boat which needed major work & power tools. That's why we took decision to have a boat that you can repair entirely with tools you carry onboard...

I saw that explanation before, either on this thread or your site. I think it makes good sense. I've not decided which way to go at this point. I like the idea of being able to do the frames at my own pace and not having to get others on my schedule to help. However, like you said, it saves time and money to construct as Paul sets in his plans.

John

[RFNK]

That's sound like a nice plan John, plenty of work to keep you occupied for a while

If you follow the plan of Paul with steam bent frames & cedar planking you will save about 1 year and few thousand dollars of fastening... The rivet are about 6 or 7 times bigger for the saw frames as they need to be long, on about 2 or 3000 rivets it start to pile up at the end.

All things considered that's what the saw frames took us, 1 year full time alone. Making patterns, Cutting futtock, riveting, cutting, raising, aligning, fairing. As Paul design have floors that do not touch the frames you don't waste time there either with steam bent... Anyway my 2 cents worth...

We choose double saw frames as we lost our 3 last boat because of stuck in a remote country with a broken boat which needed major work & power tools. That's why we took decision to have a boat that you can repair entirely with tools you carry onboard...

I think we're all looking forward to your book when you get it written Stephane!

Rick

[John Bailey]

I think we're all looking forward to your book when you get it written Stephane!

Rick

Yes to that!!!

John

[PeterSibley]

Having just sold all my sawn frame stock ,60 or so 7' lengths of curved hardwood sawn 1 3/4" and about 12" to 16" wide my decision is made . I had been planning sawn frames on a build (and even built a small shipsaw for the job) but family health issues ...not mine .... have rendered that not possible .

I am now looking at a variety of smaller boats ,this Gartside 116A being one. Another is a Harrison Butler Englyn, but I'm not sure if the drawing are available. I'm still investigating but either way it will be steam bent frames in 2 or 3 laminations.

This is the Harrison Butler Englyn. Aesthetically it's hard to decide, both are very attractive and without sailing on either I have to just accept that both designer produce excellent work!

[trango]

Peter,

Thank you for bringing Harrison Butler to my attention - very nice boats!

/Fredrik

[JoshuaIII]

Peter sure would like to help you, but there is so many beautiful design I want... You just have to take one and go with it

[PeterSibley]

Peter sure would like to help you, but there is so many beautiful design I want... You just have to take one and go with it

Oh indeed ! But at 26 foot OA the headroom thing is the real bugbear ! I may just learn to crouch .

[JoshuaIII]

Oh indeed ! But at 26 foot OA the headroom thing is the real bugbear ! I may just learn to crouch .

They make great cheap surgery to reduce your legs lenght... Will be a great investment for future boat building dream

[PeterSibley]

The full procedure gives standing headroom in a kayak !

[jak3b]

Nathaniel Herreshoff said you only need to stand up to pull your trowsers up.Real men squat.

[Matti]

Oh indeed ! But at 26 foot OA the headroom thing is the real bugbear ! I may just learn to crouch .

Or you should watch little bigger, gartside 109 have headroom for 192cm guy between beams, my neighbour is tall man.
There is some difference, if HB englyn is 13000 lbs, 109 is 16000lbs
Your timber is suitable, 109 keel is 8x8", planking is doable by 6" planks, except gardboards, very straight, bottom part have no edge curvature. Upper planks should have two butt blocks or scarfs if 6" planks is used for big sheer curvature.
The design prefer steamed oak ribs and 1 1/4" cedar planks, I used 11/8" pine.
Maybe there is just reason that you are watching only 26 feet design?
My opinion; hull is about 25% of work, rig is similar, there will be only little extra cost, ballast is heavier.

Other thread you was thinking about how hard is HB planking? First think I had when I look the pictures, that it is very easy to plank, maybe I am wrong.

Matti
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...5-Gartside-109

[Slacko]

If you need to stand up, go on deck.

[PeterSibley]

Hi Matti ,
Just a quick comment so we don't hijack too much of this excellent thread. I'm 62 now but I'm thinking of the kind of boat that I would like to sail when I'm old, say in my 70s and up ! I think I might appreciate light gear and easily handled gear ...meaning smaller anchors an chain etc .So I'm looking at 26 foot as a practical maximum.

Perhaps I should start a thread about the ideal 26 footer in Design?.

[Peter Vella]

What an inspirational build! Paul Gartside's designs are all really beautiful. I want to build the 116A to liveaboard. It's a bit beyond my means and my boatbuilding experience at the moment but one day I will do it. From my experience building furniture I can say that steambending is alot less work than fairing or shaping, especially with a hard timber like oak.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Peter (The frog): Bien merci mon cher monsieur! J'espère que vous ne prenez pas mal mes arguments de temps a autre sur l'epoxy car j'admire aussi votre travail

Salut Stéphane,

Ne vous inquiétez pas pour ca, mon ami. Nous savons tous qu'il ya plus d'une façon de construire un bateau. L'important est de bien travailler avec la méthode choisie. De cette façon, le bonheur et le succès sont assurés. La perfection est pour les Dieux!!

Cheers!


Peter

[JoshuaIII]

Working the 2 foot in the water today... Snow melting a bit too faste to my taste, but it's a good feeling to see it leaving!

[Full Tilt]

Bonjour Stephane, look on the bright side, you won't need to go as far to launch.

Mike

[Hesp]

At the risk of cluttering up a very good thread.........

At 6' 2" (1850mm) I think standing headroom is very over-rated in this size of boat (Gartside 116a and HB Englyn). Both have deckhouses that are so short that there's nowhere to walk to. It's good to stand at the galley, but it's also possible to arrange things so that you can sit here. Most of the time you're going to be sat or lying down when in the cabin.

If you reconcile yourself to the boat not having full standing headroom, it might as well be 4" short as 2" short.

I'm not saying full standing headroom has no value, but I think the trade-off isn't worth it on these boats. I think somebody who chooses one of these designs has visual appeal very much in mind, and the deckhouse shape can make or break a boat visually (usually break it). No doubt if HB or Paul had thought the trade-off worth it they would have made it.

John

[JoshuaIII]

Mike that's true!

John well you know... everything is a trade off on a boat

Ok bad news... I damage my hand and my wrist... I was planing a white oak board to make a butt block, I didn't noticed that on the board the grain was curving and went up just like if the first 1" was the end grain on the top, direct same angle of the cutter.

So when I put the board to plane it the blade dig into that and spit the board 6 ft away hard... My hand was in the path holding it... You can see my muscle in the finger and my wrist is all wraped to keep it from moving as it hurt...

A well!

[Full Tilt]

Tabernac!
How bad is the hand? Stitches or surgery? Lucky it wasn't Lignum Vitae, you'd be looking at amputation.
Take care of yourself Stephane!
Mike

[JoshuaIII]

Tabernac!
How bad is the hand? Stitches or surgery? Lucky it wasn't Lignum Vitae, you'd be looking at amputation.
Take care of yourself Stephane!
Mike

Hey you could quote the "Tabernac" I think that's the word that came out when it happen

I am looking for a new hand... Paul Gartside hand will be a nice upgrade! Seriously it should heal alright, just like everything it need time... I start to realise that a wrist is quite important in wood working!

[boattruck]

Stephan, Sorry to hear about your injury, this is a game that can hurt you, glad to hear that you didn't lose too much, hope the healing goes along quickly. Short planks,short butt blocks all tough. For future reference, and in the venerable spirit of closing the barn door after the horse is already out... For running stuff through the planer that is too short, like butt blocks, if you use a couple of them to 'push' each other, they will often behave better, also one old timer showed me that if you turn your small piece 45 degrees or so it effectively becomes a little bit longer, as well as the cutters cutting on a scewed angle and things will naturally feed better, with less chance of chatter or kickback. Another trick is to build a 'sled' a piece of plywood with a stop for the block to rest against. But you likely knew all of this and more, and just wanted to 'get er done', that is after all, why we call them accidents! Wishing you well, I do love looking at your brides fine shots of your build, Cheers, Steve/BT

[JoshuaIII]

Stephan, Sorry to hear about your injury, this is a game that can hurt you, glad to hear that you didn't lose too much, hope the healing goes along quickly. Short planks,short butt blocks all tough. For future reference, and in the venerable spirit of closing the barn door after the horse is already out... For running stuff through the planer that is too short, like butt blocks, if you use a couple of them to 'push' each other, they will often behave better, also one old timer showed me that if you turn your small piece 45 degrees or so it effectively becomes a little bit longer, as well as the cutters cutting on a scewed angle and things will naturally feed better, with less chance of chatter or kickback. Another trick is to build a 'sled' a piece of plywood with a stop for the block to rest against. But you likely knew all of this and more, and just wanted to 'get er done', that is after all, why we call them accidents! Wishing you well, I do love looking at your brides fine shots of your build, Cheers, Steve/BT

Thanks steve nice tricks.. I actually never plane small stock, this board was about 23 inches long I plane before cutting for the reason that you've said(But it's nice you've said it for preventing it!). It's really the cutter digging in, I will try to take a picture next time i go to the shop, the grain really curve 75 degres in the last 1" of the board right the same angle the cutter enter in the wood(Old blade probably didn't help that either!).

I've open the thickness planer and found oak that went between the blade and under, bending the whole thing...

The planer is fixed now... Just waiting as I do have 3 more planks ready to cut and looking forward to put them in! Why you don't come here giving me a hand, I sure would need one more

[JoshuaIII]

As I have plenty of spare time today, I've made some research about end-grain planing and found this:
http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/arti...comment-161461

Ok mine was not what I wanted but I did make several cutting board with end grain on top... After this incident and reading about it(Look also all the comments filled with horror story)... I think it's worth it to share the warning...

[RFNK]

Oh! Sorry to here about your injury Stephane! This is what we call in slang English a bummer! Thanks for the tips re planing - a good lesson for me! Let's hope all heals quickly and you can enjoy a few days of smelling the spring flowers!

Rick

[davidagage]

Stephane, sorry to hear of your injury as well, Heal quickly..
Are you due for a new crew member soon?

[PeterSibley]

Ouch !! Heal well and quickly Stephane .... good luck !

Next time a board like that goes for expensive firewood !

[trango]

Thank you for the warning - I didn't know that could happen! Heal well!

/Fredrik

[Capt Zatarra]

Now you just sit back and let that hand heal, relax, take it easy, don't even think about planking for a while, (and then maybe I can catch up to you with my planking, after all I got my first plank on!) Capt. Z.

[JoshuaIII]

Thanks guys, just relaxing in the worst I will have 9 fingers... That's what great about a hand we got a lot of chance

David, happy to see you! I think of you everyday looking that shipmate!
Yes the future pirate should arrive anytime now... It does need a lot of diplomacy to answer to your wife about her look when she is exploding from everywhere... Oh! you know, erfff, you look beautifully obviously pregnant

Capt.Z No way, you see the faster I get the boat done the sooner you will see me around drinking all your rum helping with the planks (After the rum).

Peter, I hope this board didn't yell "Viva la revolution" when doing so and giving ideas to other board laying around

[Breakaway]

Stay healthy!

[Larks]

OK, that's enough namby pambying this boy!! Time to harden up and get on with the job Stephan, you've got another hand, what's the hold up mate????

However.......if this is just a cunning ploy to take some time off to be with the missus before the noise and sleepless nights start.....well......who can blame you?? Make the most of it mate and congratulations, am I the only one here who didn't realise that you and the photographer were expecting???

[Duncan Gibbs]

Stephane!

1. Ouch! Having nearly cut off the top of my right index finger I have some idea of what yor hand is going through.

2. Congratulations! Hope the launching of the little pirate goes swimmingly and you both can still sleep afterwards.

3. Still looking good on the planking front, and I look forward to more once that hand and finger of yours is healed.

Cheers and beers in the meantime!

[JoshuaIII]

Thanks Breakaway, will try!

Yeah you are right Greg... There is no glory without a few scars!
I have enough of vacation anyway... It's been a long time I didn't take a full weekend off, boy that's boring! At least I was able to listen the entire StarWars saga in one day (As far as wooden boat that can be)
Well now you know that my wife doing a build too, actually in case you didn't know, we took vacation of our cruising life to build the boat because we wanted a bigger one to cruise with a kid... We wanted to at least finish the planking before working on that part, but you know... things happen

Thanks Duncan, does your finger is all healed now? Will go to the shop tomorrow see what I can do, too boring sitting in a couch! I am not sure my skills will be that good with my left hand!

[P.L.Lenihan]

Bon Dieu, vous êtes chanceux avec votre malheur Stephane! Au moins vous n'avez pas perdu un doigt.....

Prenez bien soin de toi!!


Cheers!


Peter

[JoshuaIII]

Ok here a picture of the bad end which give me trouble... I should have noticed that curve, but you know was just working fast to get it done...

As you see the blade enter right in the angle of the grain curving, you can see that the blade dig in and not cut it.
(For those that wonder, I've cut the end off for the picture)

[JoshuaIII]

Hi Guys,
I won't write everything for a update as we just arrive from the hospital after 1 weeks of intense emotion...

I've put a new post on the website, the baby doing alright now and the mom survived which was something not granted to start the week with...

[Matti]

Congratulations!!!!
It is good to hear that there was happy end in spite of all.


Matti

[Thad]

Sounds tense!! Sounds hopeful!! Hope it continues so!! Best wishes!!!

[gordocutter]

Congratulations Stephane!!! I wish the best for you and your new family, buddy!
And I hope your hand get better soon for more pics cause I'm starting to get impatient!!!
Cheers.

[davidagage]

Congratulations Stephane', Catherene, and welcome to new George-Emry!
Glad to hear that all are safe and sound.