How to join/weld bronze?

[P.L.Lenihan]

Hello,

I'm seeking information on the proper method to use when joining two bits of bronze togther.Is it welding,brazing, soldering or some other method? I have two aproxmately 12" cylinders out of 3/16" stock that I would like to join together to make one longer cylinder.

Thank you.


Cheers!


Peter

[ramillett]

I love to work with bronze , When you weld it , It's like you recast the parts , If you get a good weld , there are no hard spots , no soft spots , and very little warp-age . Bronze does not work harden like stainless , and is easy to cut . If you get a good guy with a helm-arc , and get the right rod , you can have a repair that is as strong , and undetectable as new

[Gold Rock]

The guy who owns Port Townsend Foundry welds on bronze all the time. Silicon bronze seems to weld excellently. Manganese and aluminum bronze don't weld well at all because of the high content of metals of very dissimilar melting temperatures in the alloy. Bronze brazes and solders excellently. Now, I'm no welder, but your desire sounds like you want to join two pieces of tubing/pipe in a butt joint. It seems to me that the viability of brazing or soldering would depend on the strength required of the joint. For instance, if you were just making a fixturing jig, or a pedestal mount/bracket for some purpose, brazing or soldering would likely do well, but if you were lengthening a drive shaft, they probably wouldn't, if you take my meaning. There are some first rate welders on this forum who will doubtless reveal all.

[cookie]

I would braze it, if I were you.
It can be welded too, preferebly TIG, but is rather difficult if inexperienced...

[PeterSibley]

Firstly know the original alloy , second find filler rod of the same material .(It doesn't need to be a real filler rod , just material that can be used as such ),last find a welder with TIG ,it's a lot more common than oxy acetylene brazing equipment these days .

As Chuck says manganese and aluminum bronzes don't weld well ,blemishes can be filled but major joins would be suspect .

[P.L.Lenihan]

Thanks for the replies folks. Wish I lived on the West Coast! Below is a photo of what I need done. The spigot or flange on this porthole is just a wee bit too short. I need to extend it about 5/8th" so that it protrudes slightly beyond the cabin side. Not very structurely important.More about aesthetics and getting a good fit than it is about raw strength.








I haven't a clue exactly what type of bronze this is, but will attempt to find out soon.



Cheers!


Peter

[seo]

I'm sure there are welders in Montreal. On the other hand, if you have a little time, you can deliver it to my son, who goes to McGill, and he can bring it back to Maine when he's done with exams next week, and I can take it to a friend in Rockport (Bill Glover, Rockport Steel) who runs a large welding shop and does impeccable work. Then the kid can bring it back to Montreal when he returns for summer semester, which begins in early May. With the current exchange rate (now, how would an American parent of a McGill student know about the exchange rate???) it would be cheap. Well, maybe not cheap...cheaper.
My guess it that the critical issue with this weld will be getting a good joint, vee'd out slightly on the outside, a tight fit on the inside (visible side) Because the joint will only be seen from one side once it's installed, that strikes me as being the quick method. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that what you have there is brass, not bronze. If it's new, a check with the manufacturer might be a good idea.
An alternate approach might be to get a piece of 11 gauge sheet that's long enough to wrap around the outside of the spigot, wide enough to give you a 1" overlap on the spigot, plus enough additional depth. That could be clamped in place with a strap clamp, then soldered. A couple/few little flat headed machine screws, maybe #6, could be counter sunk into the sheet material, and threaded into the existing spigot.
Just an idea.

[Tobago]

Check in with the smiths on Iforgeiron.com. There are many Canadians and metal workers who have done everything. Very civil group.

Excelsior,
Ted

[Gold Rock]

Ah yes, the 'spigot too short' conundrum. Frustratingly common. Your portlight is likely silicon bronze or manganese brz. (brass, really). The hardest part of this project is finding a piece of stock such that however joined to the portlight, it becomes a reasonably attractive addition. Having steps or other dissimilarities in contour is undesireable. If you can track down the perfect piece of stock, I'd just have one face machined flat to butt to the spigot and silver solder it in place. Stronger than you'll ever need and you can do it yourself in your garage with a gas torch.

[Jay Greer]

Since the fitting will not be submerged electrolysis will not come into play, silver brazing is then the best choice. Gas welding can be tricky as temperatures are very critical. Nothing is more frustrating thatn attempting to gas weld bronze and end up with the weld slumping. Tig welding is excellent as well but for simplicity, I would stick with the sliver. It is quick, strong and cosmetically clean.
Jay

[Dan McCosh]

I was thinking of fabricating a new anchor roller from sheet silicon bronze--any advise on making a good structural joint? This would be mainly a few pieces of what amounts to angled pieces.

[donald branscom]

Thanks for the replies folks. Wish I lived on the West Coast! Below is a photo of what I need done. The spigot or flange on this porthole is just a wee bit too short. I need to extend it about 5/8th" so that it protrudes slightly beyond the cabin side. Not very structurely important.More about aesthetics and getting a good fit than it is about raw strength.

You could call the manufacturer and they may know about the type of bronze.

I haven't a clue exactly what type of bronze this is, but will attempt to find out soon.

Cheers!


Peter

I am a welder. You would weld it with the TIG or GTAW process with silicon bronze filler wire.
I would not weld it and I will tell you why.

It will shrink and could cause the glass to break. It will change color from the welding process and have to be completely repolished so the two pieces match.

You need another 5/8 inch. I would get that part machined with a press fit step, and that way it will look the best and skip all the heat problems.
Bronze really holds its heat when you are welding it.

Call the manufacturer and see if they have the inside part that is 5/8 deeper. Or if they will trade what you have for what you need.

[donald branscom]

I love to work with bronze , When you weld it , It's like you recast the parts , If you get a good weld , there are no hard spots , no soft spots , and very little warp-age . Bronze does not work harden like stainless , and is easy to cut . If you get a good guy with a helm-arc , and get the right rod , you can have a repair that is as strong , and undetectable as new

You meant Heli-arc right?

[Sailor]

Trade it in at the factory for a longer one. I love that . Think outside the box with a completely novel solution but when you stop to think about it, it's the obvious thing to do. Peter, why didn't you think of that. I know those two neurons work hard enough to come up with a solution as obvious as this.

[PeterSibley]

I am a welder. You would weld it with the TIG or GTAW process with silicon bronze filler wire.
I would not weld it and I will tell you why.

It will shrink and could cause the glass to break. It will change color from the welding process and have to be completely repolished so the two pieces match.

You need another 5/8 inch. I would get that part machined with a press fit step, and that way it will look the best and skip all the heat problems.
Bronze really holds its heat when you are welding it.

Call the manufacturer and see if they have the inside part that is 5/8 deeper. Or if they will trade what you have for what you need.

Another 2cents worth .

Go to your local bronze foundry .
Ask what alloy the portlight is .
Go home and make up a pattern for the section you need ,way oversize ...don't forget the shrinkage .
Take the portlight and the rough bronze ring to your local machinist .
Ask him to turn a press fit tongue and groove joint on the mating faces,press together then join .
Even plumbers soft solder would work on a joint like that .

[Gezzunder]

Mountain and Mohammed, if one side won't come to the party, could you not rebate the flange 5/8th into the cabin side? Would flush portholes look that bad?

[donald branscom]

Another 2cents worth .

Go to your local bronze foundry .
Ask what alloy the portlight is .
Go home and make up a pattern for the section you need ,way oversize ...don't forget the shrinkage .
Take the portlight and the rough bronze ring to your local machinist .
Ask him to turn a press fit tongue and groove joint on the mating faces,press together then join .
Even plumbers soft solder would work on a joint like that .

A bronze foundry will not be able to tell you what bronze you have with any certainty, and there is no need anyway.
If you weld it it would still be silicon bronze filler for most all types of bronze.
They will not know its chemical make up.

[P.L.Lenihan]

I've been checking around for a bronze foundry close by and none so far. Also have been looking into welding shops but the big thing here in Montreal appears to be ornemental iron work. Taking it back to the store and trading it in for one with a longer spigot would have ben nice, but they don't make them any longer than the one I bought. Here is a link to the store:

http://www.trinity-portholes.com/pro...rthole_-_20cm/


A flush porthole may not look bad at all, however, I have the outside ring that goes with this porthole and would very much like to use it for the look of it.

Seo, that is one wild bit of porthole travelling

The work required to accomplish the task will have to be done by someone else as I'm too unfamiliar and inept with metal working.Silver soldering for this purpose appears to be the way to go for the reasons Mr.Greer states.

I'll refine my local search after Easter is past.


Thank you all for your ideas,suggestions, and most of all, your time. Your guidance is very much appreciated by me!


Cheers!


Peter

[cookie]

Ehrrr, why don't ya just glue it?

Epoxy might workt, Loctite will do a proper job for sure.

[bloggs68]

on the TIG welding side of things would it be AC or DC?

AD

[ramillett]

Thanks for the replies folks. Wish I lived on the West Coast! Below is a photo of what I need done. The spigot or flange on this porthole is just a wee bit too short. I need to extend it about 5/8th" so that it protrudes slightly beyond the cabin side. Not very structurely important.More about aesthetics and getting a good fit than it is about raw strength.

I haven't a clue exactly what type of bronze this is, but will attempt to find out soon.

Cheers!

Peter

How many do you need to do ? I have some bronze

[cookie]

on the TIG welding side of things would it be AC or DC?

AD

DC; AC is used for alluminum to clean the oxide

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

This modification can be done a lot of different ways but the problem is always the same.
You have a fairly stout piece of bronze and you want to attach a fairly lightweight but large diameter ring. The bigger piece can tolerate the heat of welding or brazing but the ring can't. The ring will start to get bigger at the heat builds up. With TIG the heat can be applied in short bursts with cooling in between but brazing with a torch doesn't have that control unless you brazed on a thick sheet of bronze and machined off the excess.
If the ring isn't required to bear any big loads a machined ring could be soft-soldered on and the required heat would be low enough to avoid any noticable distorsion.

[donald branscom]

This modification can be done a lot of different ways but the problem is always the same.
You have a fairly stout piece of bronze and you want to attach a fairly lightweight but large diameter ring. The bigger piece can tolerate the heat of welding or brazing but the ring can't. The ring will start to get bigger at the heat builds up. With TIG the heat can be applied in short bursts with cooling in between but brazing with a torch doesn't have that control unless you brazed on a thick sheet of bronze and machined off the excess.
If the ring isn't required to bear any big loads a machined ring could be soft-soldered on and the required heat would be low enough to avoid any noticable distorsion.

"The bigger piece can tolerate the heat of welding or brazing but the ring can't. The ring will start to get bigger at the heat builds up."
The ring will get out of round also right after the first spot weld. A can of worms.


Get the "ring" machined and have a step in it.
Interference fit .001-.003
Then put the ring in the freezer.
After one hour just tap the ring into the porthole and let it sit .
Once the ring warms up you will not be able to get it out.

[kbowen]

WB #115 p 87 touts the virtues of "Silver Brazing" which we used to call silver-solder, but I would defer to someone else about how you would heat such a large object evenly.

[Bob Smalser]

The spigot or flange on this porthole is just a wee bit too short. I need to extend it about 5/8th" so that it protrudes slightly beyond the cabin side. Not very structurely important.More about aesthetics and getting a good fit than it is about raw strength.

I think you'll do well to find another way to skin this cat. Duplicating that spigot just to braze on an extension for no other than cosmetic reasons will be a huge expense to accomplish very little.

For example, I could steambend a strip of oak, walnut or cherry trim to fit that gap.

[S B]

A bronze foundry will not be able to tell you what bronze you have with any certainty, and there is no need anyway.
If you weld it it would still be silicon bronze filler for most all types of bronze.
They will not know its chemical make up.

Certainly not worth it for one,but if you had a pile of bronze of unknown alloy, finding the make up is not difficult. Take a piece of pure quartz and rub the object in question, send to geophysics lab, ask for fire assay and they will send you the percentage formula, to the ppb. Cost about $20. Don't wear your wedding ring,in the exercise, you might think you have found Solomons mines.

[Tom M.]

Can you rout a 5/8" deep bedding on the inside of the cabin?

[P.L.Lenihan]

How many do you need to do ? I have some bronze

Just the one Mr.ramillet. I'll take the porthole to the boat today and get accurate measurements and a few pictures to illustrate my desire.

Cheers!


Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

[QUOTE=donald branscom;2966724Get the "ring" machined and have a step in it.
Interference fit .001-.003
Then put the ring in the freezer.
After one hour just tap the ring into the porthole and let it sit .
Once the ring warms up you will not be able to get it out.[/QUOTE]


This sounds very elegant Donald and you clearly have done something like this before. However, I have yet to even locate a suitable source for the small amount of bronze needed to make the extension piece, nevermind a machine shop for such tight precision work. Thanks for the idea!


Cheers!


Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

I think you'll do well to find another way to skin this cat. Duplicating that spigot just to braze on an extension for no other than cosmetic reasons will be a huge expense to accomplish very little.
For example, I could steambend a strip of oak, walnut or cherry trim to fit that gap.

Very interesting horizontal bit of thinking there Mr.Smalser! If I cannot get the job done somehow with bronze, your wooden srtip extension idea will most likely be a route to take. Thank you!



Cheers!


Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

Can you rout a 5/8" deep bedding on the inside of the cabin?

With a big enough router, I probably could. Not entirely certain however how this would effect the hinges operation or the opening swing of the window. A curious idea Tom M. and one which never occured to me. So many nifty possible solutions to consider. Thanks folks!


Cheers!


Peter

[PeterSibley]

A bronze foundry will not be able to tell you what bronze you have with any certainty, and there is no need anyway.
If you weld it it would still be silicon bronze filler for most all types of bronze.
They will not know its chemical make up.

The idea was merely to get a colour match Donald , just for appearance sakes .

[donald branscom]

Just call this place.
http://www.nationalbronze.com/

Tell them what you want.

You could even use a flat bar 5/8 wide and 3/16 thick and form it into a circle over a pipe or tube, and have your 5/8 spacer.
It does not have to be welded because it will be between the port and the inside facing ring.
Just epoxy it in place with JB weld. DONE

I want this done by lunchtime. I have another project for you. LOL....LOL

[ramillett]

Just the one Mr.ramillet. I'll take the porthole to the boat today and get accurate measurements and a few pictures to illustrate my desire.

Cheers!
Peter

This is the silicon bronze we use , I think it's pretty close

[P.L.Lenihan]

Alright. Back from the boat with some porthole pictures. My measurements are way off!



This is a view from outside looking in and we can just make out the edge of the porthole spigot. It is a full 1" short of being flush with the cabin side.





This is the outside ring of the porthole aproximately where it is supposed to lay.




The outer ring measures aproximately 3/16". I was hoping to have the spigot extend slightly beyond the surface of the ring,say about 1/4". Thus,I would really need something closer to about 1 1/2" wide X 3/16" thick and not the 5/8th width I originally thought I needed.





This is a view of the porthole from within the head, in the closed postion.





And here in the opened position. Were I to router a rabbet 1 1/2" deep, the dogs would not be able to come off the horns and the window would have a very limited range of movement. Had it been the 5/8th" as first mentioned, it would have work!




The diameter of the spigot, as seen from outside.



I hope these photos help in visualizing better than just my words what I am seeking. In my limited understanding, I see a length of 3/16th bronze flat bar,1 1/2" wide by whatever length,bent or rolled into a ring,held flush against the spigot and silver soldered.The whole portlight is expected to be very well bedded in some goop to eliminate water ingress between the outside wall of the spigot and the cabin stock.


Thanks again for your ideas and suggestions!



Cheers!


Peter

[ramillett]

Are the three pivot pins removable for the window and 2 dogs ? It would be a lot easier to finish in the lathe
Is the wall straight up and down ?

[P.L.Lenihan]

From what I've seen, I do not believe so.However, I wasn't looking necessarily to see if it is removable so may have missed something obvious.Will have to check it out when I get back to the boat in about 6 hours time.


Cheers!


Peter

[ramillett]

While your there take a level , and see if the light faces up , down , or level . that way you wont get wet when you open it . level or down is easier . Also think how your going to fasten the 2 haves together , like flat head screws , thread one side and threw bolt , or copper rivets might be sexy

I have some extra rivets from my project .

[P.L.Lenihan]

The porthole sits pretty much level. I had wanted it to cant somewhat downward during the making of the cutout for exactly the water issue you mention but due to the spigots depth, it would have left part of the inside ring not sitting flat or flush against the wall surface.I'll have to keep a little drip pale under the porthole on the rainy days.

Not yet certain how the whole affair will be held in place, but was thinking either long bolts or just big screws from both sides since this portlight will not be significantly stressed.

Nice rivets!


Cheers!


Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

[QUOTE=ramillett;2967705]

That floor looks like a sculpture. Beautiful! You must have a fair number of those to make considering how big your boat is.Wonderful workmanship!


Cheers!


Peter

[aprophet]

WB #115 p 87 touts the virtues of "Silver Brazing" which we used to call silver-solder, but I would defer to someone else about how you would heat such a large object evenly.

either a rosebud or turbo torch tip . I both soft solder and silbraze large brass/copper often

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

The spigot or flange on this porthole is just a wee bit too short. I need to extend it about 5/8th"




I haven't a clue exactly what type of bronze this is, but will attempt to find out soon.



Cheers!


Peter

I've heard of spigots that were "a wee bit too short" before but if I was going to extend my spigot, it would certainly be by at LEAST an extra inch. Just sayin'.