John Welsfords Sundowner

[kyky]

I'm afraid I've fallen in love with this little boat. i would like to know who's built one, i know only of the one on the page on duckworks.
so i was hoping that you good people or perhaps the man himself could show me any more examples?
pretty please?

cheers, Kynan

[john welsford]

There are 16 sets of plans sold so far, but "Resolution" the original is the only one to have been completed to date.

If you would like to contact me off forum I can send you pics of whatever area of the boat you might like to look at
my email is on my website at www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz

John Welsford

[JayInOz]

Can we see a picture of the boat please? This is totally unacceptable JayInOz

[Plumbtex]

[kyky]

i really don't see how there aren't more of these little beauties, especially with your description of her John

[IanHowick]

Just out of curiosity, and not trying to push an opinion one way or the other, but if your dream was to build a boat and circumnavigate under sail, how does a Sundowner (smallest sensible monohull circumnavigator?) compare to the equivalent in a multihull? I'm thinking it took Charlie Whipple a year or two fulltime (2000 - 3000 hours?) to build Resolution, something like a Tiki 30 cat from Wharram seems to be listed at 900 hours or so, a Tiki 26 at 700 hours, and all of these have circumnavigated. I'm curious as to how the build cost and time (and eventual capabilities) would compare.

I can see 6 months full time or a couple of years part time and say $20 000 as a quicker route to that dream than 2 years full time/10 years part time and ?$80 000.

All the best!

Ian

All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.

T E Lawrence

[john welsford]

The cost of a boatbjuilding project, both labour and materials is closely related to displacement. Yes the Tiki is lighter, so will cost less in both respects.
But I think that the original Sundowner took a lot longer than it might have as the builder was busy writing the novels that he makes part of his living from, and spent quite a bit that he did not need to. An example of that was a very nice windvane steering system that never did get used as the boat was designed for sheet to tiller steering and that proved to be very workable. Charlie mentioned to me that he sailed for 36 hours at one stretch without touching the tiller so the several thousand involved in the windvane was not needed. There were other expenses in that 80K including accommodation, shed rental and such.
My own estimate is about $30K with a rebuilt diesel and basic fitout, and about 1500 hours of well organised and productive work.
Its a pretty simple build, and there are some areas where in order to bring the build within the bounds of an amateur build has meant that the build method is not the quickest possible.
At the end of it there is a tough little boat that handles and sails well, has full standing headroom, a decent galley, a nav table, separate heads and a monster cargo capacity. All of which makes for comfort when on board long term.
If a client was looking for the cheapest circumnavigator, this aint it, but I'd prefer the comfort.

John Welsford

Just out of curiosity, and not trying to push an opinion one way or the other, but if your dream was to build a boat and circumnavigate under sail, how does a Sundowner (smallest sensible monohull circumnavigator?) compare to the equivalent in a multihull? I'm thinking it took Charlie Whipple a year or two fulltime (2000 - 3000 hours?) to build Resolution, something like a Tiki 30 cat from Wharram seems to be listed at 900 hours or so, a Tiki 26 at 700 hours, and all of these have circumnavigated. I'm curious as to how the build cost and time (and eventual capabilities) would compare.

I can see 6 months full time or a couple of years part time and say $20 000 as a quicker route to that dream than 2 years full time/10 years part time and ?$80 000.

All the best!

Ian

All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible.

T E Lawrence

[John B]

Was there any feedback on the tank failure John? I ask because I learnt something I should have known about any boat tanks the other day and it might be a factor ( or not ).

[john welsford]

Its comewhat conjecture on my part John, but there are a couple of points that suggest what the issue may have been. I'd drawn the engine compartment with full height back and sides with screw ports in them for access, with a half height bulkhead across the front of the engine just below the height of the crank handle and the capacity to hold a lot of fuel, lubricating oil or water without it getting any further into the boat. It was built though with an eye to improving access which meant no solid sides.
The tank was held well fore and aft, but although well held with webbing straps ( it was an unbaffled polyethylene tank from Vetus Marine) I suspect that it worked the straps loose and moved sideways enough to damage the seal between the fill or feed lines and the tank. The spilt fuel appeared in the galley area first which suggests that it had run along the top of the bunk and into the galley which indicates to me that the spill came from the top of the tank supporting that thought.
It was that the boat became very slippery inside with diesel everywhere that caused the skipper to turn back.

John Welsford

Was there any feedback on the tank failure John? I ask because I learnt something I should have known about any boat tanks the other day and it might be a factor ( or not ).

[John B]

It would have been just impossible in there with fuel loose. Mr Roosevelt lost her rig in the recent Round North island race due to a failed rigging screw, one that had missed the recall. Anyway, they had hydraulics hooked up , presumably for the vang and that fluid on the decks represented more danger to the crew than the rig loss event itself.

[Peter K]

Much as I like Wharrams, a Tiki 26 is not a boat I would choose to cross oceans on. They have no real accommodations - sitting headroom below with width about 0.5m at your butt and 800mm at your shoulders. I had one for 5 years - a great boat and very seaworthy but you live on deck.
If I wanted to do a minimalist ocean crossing (or 7) it would be a Sundowner for me.

[IanHowick]

But I think that the original Sundowner took a lot longer than it might have as the builder was busy writing the novels that he makes part of his living from, and spent quite a bit that he did not need to....
My own estimate is about $30K with a rebuilt diesel and basic fitout, and about 1500 hours of well organised and productive work...

John Welsford

Hi John, thanks for the information, I'd followed the Resolution build from the beginning and wondered if the time and money that seemed to be spent were closer to the minimum or maximum possible. I also like the look of the Sundowner very much, a strong little boat for a circumnavigation via the Capes, so it's good to hear the cost and time involved are more reasonable than that original impression. Hopefully one or two of those 16 plan owners are cracking on with a build and we will see some on the water and having a happier and longer life than Resolution. Do you have links to blogs of any current builds?


All the best, Ian

[Quest]

I know this is an older thread, but hopefully someone on the group can help out. I am very interested in the Sundowner and have looked everywhere for details of a build on the net. I have been all through the Charlie Whipple site and details on John Welsford's site, and noted that one of the members here mentions building one on an older Amigo thread. I've emailed John who was very helpful (I'm starting a Tender Behind as soon as the shed is finished this week) but details of people who bought the plans are kept private which is fair enough.

So come on, who's out there building one and can share?? I would be very grateful is someone can share some details of their experience, materials, time taken, how it has progressed, and as always pictures if you have them! Help push a newbie over the edge............