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Thread: inboard electric-powered kayak

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    Smile inboard electric-powered kayak

    Don`t know whether to post this to building or to plans, but I`ve been reading up on the WWII electric canoe (MSC/Sleeping Beauty), and found they only used a 0.3 hp motor to achieve 3 or 4 knots for up to 16 hours endurance, albeit with some very,very large 12v batteries.

    This made me wonder, if you were to build a solo kayak with an inboard electric propulsion system, how would you do it? Strip-build/SOF/stitch-n-glue/?? and what would be the sort of power system needed, presumably sub 2hp, but aiming to get 8 knots in a burst or work against a tide, and an endurance of 8 hours at 4 knots, oh and it should be light enough to car-top without removing the batteries....

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckinthemud View Post
    ...and what would be the sort of power system needed, presumably sub 2hp, but aiming to get 8 knots in a burst or work against a tide, and an endurance of 8 hours at 4 knots, oh and it should be light enough to car-top without removing the batteries....
    Circumnavigate as well? <-------JOKE!

    Batteries are just too heavy for cartopping (particularly in a kayak!), and you'd probably need more than one for that 8 hour requirement. Start that weight program now...
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Thought that car-topping may be a little optamistic, but still trailering is an option.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Car topping is easy if you are permitted to remove the batteries though, It shouldn't be so complicated a system that removing them is a big chore. I guess it's your boat your rules though. IOT cartop I'd forgoe that requirement.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Torqeedo has the lightest option. Also the most expensive, but it is made for what you propose.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Those Torqeedo's are high tech, high performance, high cost systems and a great way to go if you are OK with the price. You can make your own drive system for 1/4 the cost of the cheapest Torqeedo. Buy the bottom of the line PWM (infinite speed control) trolling motor; cut the bottom off and mount it into a fairing. Use an RC model airplane prop. (10 x 6) worked best for me.

    Do not use a resistor speed control (usually 5 discrete speeds) unless you plan to run the motor wide open nearly all the time. This could work if you used 6 or 8 volt batteries instead of 12v.

    4kts for 8 hrs will take 200 lbs of lead acid batteries of maybe 75 lb of LiFePO4 cells. 8 kts ain't happenin'

    Here's a thread describing my 18' sailboat with a trolling motor modified with fairing and RC prop. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ower&highlight=
    Denny Wolfe
    www.wolfEboats.com

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Cheep and cheerful is the way I like it, love the plan Mcdenny.

    Here are the figures for 1943 according to Quentin Rees:
    endurance 12 miles at 4.4 knots, 40 miles at 3.1 knt (about 14hours) from a very slippery hull weighing over 550 lbs with loa 13ft, beam 27in, using a 8in prop running off 4 6v 89amp hour batteries.

    My thought was if the weight was dramatically reduced - their hull was steel - performance would improve, and with modern motors, wouldn`t it improve some more? 8 knts is likely impossible but still a good start for discussion, but is 6 achievable, or has the technology advanced so little in 70 years?

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    You are joking, right? Those batteries weigh over 60lbs EACH. You want to build a lightweight kayak and put 250lbs of batteries in it, then cartop it???? Unless the kayak is heavily built the batteries will break it in half when you hit a bump.

    If you want a small electric launch, build (or modify/restore) one - lots of designs out there, or just mod an old plywood daysailer. Use a boat trailer, fer crissakes.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  9. #9

    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    I have always though about a powered Kayak would be neat to play with.

    I think it can be done AND keep it cartoppable.. I would estimate 30-40 lbs. WITH lead acid batteries. 8kts is optimistic but you might be able to get close.

    Things have come along way since 1943 with both motors and batteries.

    Check out the Torqeedo Ultralight 402 on page 8, a kayak propulsion system (thanks woxbox)

    http://www.torqeedo.com/fileadmin/us...easures_01.pdf

    Less than 15 lbs including battery, 9km/h top speed, 30km range at 4km/h........

    All from a 230 Wh Lithium battery, the Lead equivalent of about a 12v 20Ah battery.

    a 12v 10 Ah battery weighs just over 8 lbs, and you will need 2. That gives you 10-20 lbs for the motor and controller. I wouldn't go heads up against the torqueedo for pinks, but You could probably beat the 1943 monster.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Once again I suggest that you folks check out the Electric Boat forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electr...guid=421621470 All the options are covered- and there's lots and lots of pictures JayInOz

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    You are joking, right? Those batteries weigh over 60lbs EACH. You want to build a lightweight kayak and put 250lbs of batteries in it, then cartop it???? Unless the kayak is heavily built the batteries will break it in half when you hit a bump.

    If you want a small electric launch, build (or modify/restore) one - lots of designs out there, or just mod an old plywood daysailer. Use a boat trailer, fer crissakes.
    Hi Thorne, think you may have got hold of the wrong end of this stick, my question really is to avoid all that weight by building as light as possible and not to use heavy batteries. Since kayaks are very easily driven, they can operate with very small motors and (hopefully) very small batteries to match, wheras even a small launch needs much more power, more batteries, more expense, more hastle. Ideal is to take the boat off the car jump in it and away to go; I just wondered how close to this ideal we could get, preferably for as little cash as possible.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckinthemud View Post
    Ideal is to take the boat off the car jump in it and away to go; I just wondered how close to this ideal we could get, preferably for as little cash as possible.
    Many thousands of folks already doing just that every day, and a huge industry exists to support them - so do you think you've discovered something they haven't? The pedal kayak designs like the Hobie Mirage sound perfect for your needs. When batteries get vastly more powerful, and motors more efficient, you might be able to do it electrically -- but not with the present tech unless you want to spring for a torqueedo.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    I think we've been down this road before, but how far could one go with a fiberglass tank of compressed air running an air drill with a prop chucked in it? Eco friendly, quiet, and not too heavy. More than 1 mile?

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    The comments about electric boat technology advancing reminded me of a little research I did into the ELCO 32' electric launches used as mass transit at the 1893 Chicago Worlds Fair. I found a digitized version of an 1894 engineering magazine giving a lot of specific data collected over the period of the fair - IIRC about 50 boats were in nearly constant use for 5 or 6 months.

    The second latest reincarnation of ELCO electric boats offered a 30' launch very similar to the Worlds Fair boats. Its performance - both speed and range - was about the SAME as the boats from 120 yrs ago. The electric efficiency of the batteries (they called them piles back then), motors and speed controls (elaborate contactors to alter series / parallel connections to vary voltage) was about half as good as today's technology but the new fiberglass hulls are so much heavier than the old wood ones that the performance turned out about the same.
    Denny Wolfe
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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Many thousands of folks already doing just that every day, and a huge industry exists to support them - so do you think you've discovered something they haven't? The pedal kayak designs like the Hobie Mirage sound perfect for your needs. When batteries get vastly more powerful, and motors more efficient, you might be able to do it electrically -- but not with the present tech unless you want to spring for a torqueedo.
    Yep, I`m one of them thousands, built a coracle, building an SOF sailing canoe, got a big and very heavy fibreglass sea-canoe (takes two to carry it), but paddling isn`t so much fun after a few hours, so an electric alternative might be be nice, and although sails are easy to get information on, and petrol/diesel-power is stright-forward to get help with too, I know totally nothing about electric-power, except it sounds like a nice quiet way to travel, kind of best of both worlds - a quiet kayak that drives itself when I get tired.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    My brother built a kayak and embedded a minkota tolling motor in the skeg. Faired it in all nice and smooth. Cut down the upright shaft and ran it up into the hull. Moved the speed control up into the cockpit. I dont recall what type of batteries he used. He used it down at Sanibel Island a good bit. It worked out well. Cheap, Efficient, Easy.

    If you are interested I will see if I can get some pictures and specs.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by McManusBoatWorks View Post
    My brother built a kayak and embedded a minkota tolling motor in the skeg. Faired it in all nice and smooth. Cut down the upright shaft and ran it up into the hull. Moved the speed control up into the cockpit. I dont recall what type of batteries he used. He used it down at Sanibel Island a good bit. It worked out well. Cheap, Efficient, Easy.

    If you are interested I will see if I can get some pictures and specs.
    Yes please, that would be great if you could

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    While were at it, anybody built their own motor/prop/controller set-up? motors on their own seem to be much cheaper than a complete trolling motor, but I guess if you add up the cost of a wiring harness and speed controller, the costs of DIY kit wouldnt be significantly cheaper?

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Trolling motors on ebay are cheap, they even have these
    http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....ht_2287wt_1145
    for project boats, replace the control panel with a servo tester and electronic speed controller (to extend low speed range), I just bought both of these and a couple of props for $16 shipped, from Hobbyking.com
    While you are there check out their LiPo's 5ah 11.2 volt 20C discharge rate about 400g from memory are in the low $20 range, so 20ah will be less than 2kg and they don't mind being deep discharged repeatedly to 80%, just dont discharge completely as it will destroy them.

    Oh, try and stick around the 30lb thrust range as it will drive the kayak at hull speed (may need to play with props for max speed minimum current) with out excess current draw.
    Last edited by Geebee666; 03-19-2011 at 05:26 PM.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by Mis4tun81 View Post
    I have always though about a powered Kayak would be neat to play with.

    I think it can be done AND keep it cartoppable.. I would estimate 30-40 lbs. WITH lead acid batteries. 8kts is optimistic but you might be able to get close.
    Hull speed for a 17 foot displacement hull is around 5.5kts, so without chucking several horsepower into the equation, 8kts is impossible. Below hull speed though, it doesnt take much power to get along nicely - look at how well a kayak goes when being paddled. The average person is worth all of about 300W continuous. That is cycling, and I am sure my legs are probably good for much more than my arms.

    Check out the Human Powered Vehicle Association website - they have (or had several years ago) a lot of info on really efficient propellers for low speed, low power marine applications - they do look a lot like a model aircraft props but are designed to work properly in water instead of air.


    Edited to add - just had a look at the HPVA site :-(
    It looks like the organisation had a bit of a meltdown some time ago, and the guys who were doing a lot of practical prop testing and manufacture have long gone - I dont know what state the forum archives are like there, but if they still exist there is load of info.
    Google HPV propeller, Jake Free, Spinfin - there is still a bit of info out there and a few places selling props, but most people seem to have reverted to model aircraft props. 16x16 looks like a popular size.

    Pete
    Last edited by epoxyboy; 03-19-2011 at 07:28 PM.
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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Hull speed for a 17 foot displacement hull is around 5.5kts,
    That assumes a traditional hull with some beam. A light narrow boat can easily do 2x root of waterline, or 8 kts for 16 ft waterline.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak


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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Possibly modify this

    http://www.electricpaddle.com/

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    That GlenL looks very similar to the boat my brother built. He is a fan of that source. I bet he modified that design for his purposes.

    I will contact him today and see if we can get some pictures.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Try this thread:
    http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...read.php?16099

    The guy who started the thread is a real engineer.
    Complicated problems usually have simple solutions - which are almost always wrong.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    That assumes a traditional hull with some beam. A light narrow boat can easily do 2x root of waterline, or 8 kts for 16 ft waterline.
    I know that racing kayaks like K1's go faster than their theoretical hull speed, but everything I have ever seen and experienced on "normal" modestly stable sea kayaks suggests that 8 kts is unlikely. Paddling hard out gets them going fast enough to start suck the stern down - it is like hitting a brick wall. Even a sail and a decent breeze wont get you much more speed.

    I think for the most part, the sort of hull form you are referring to is more likely to be found on a catamaran or downriver race kayak, than the sort of thing being proposed here.

    Pete
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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    We've done it already(club acquaintances of mine) using a 16 ft plastic sit on top kayak, a mini kota trolling motor from Wal Mart. 30lbs thrust. Shaft shortened and inserted thru the hull and fixed stationary. Steering was with the kayak rudder. Batteries was a single optima blue top marine battery in a plastic milk crate strapped down in the rear tank well. Im sure it can be installed inside the hull under the hatch. Battery removed for transportation. 5 min hook up. Not a big deal. Easily done.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    jclays -- Do you have information on run time, speeds, etc., with that rig?

    Pete -- I agree most commercial kayaks are too heavy and beamy to go 8 knots, but if you built one specifically to do this, there's no law of physics that makes it impossible. A light boat with a waterline 12-1 length to beam ration, and a nice clean shiny bottom should do the trick. Yep, that's a 16" beam at 16' on the waterline. But I'll bet 18" wouldn't kill the performance. A very simple and light outrigger could provide reserve stability if the skipper felt the need. The Olympic class kayakers go even faster than that. Here's a link with some actual facts.
    Last edited by Woxbox; 03-20-2011 at 08:42 PM.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    forget the electric motor. Drop a mirage drive into it:
    http://www.kayakfishingsupplies.com/...e-Drive/Detail

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Found this while I was searching, any thoughts? www.streamdancer.com As I understood it a propeller (screw) was just a cut-short worm-drive, and more efficient because of lower drag?? So is this worm-drive a ducted fan in a tunnel housing, and where do ducted fans come into all this, they may be more effective on a kayak, since like a trolling motor faired into the skeg, they dont dangle below the boat and bang into the rocks in shallow water?
    Last edited by stuckinthemud; 03-21-2011 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Gentlemen, the information you need is all in a book titled "Electric Boats The handbook of clean quiet boating by Douglas Little. Hull number one of the McManus Boatworks (downtown chapter) was built using the propulsion principles as laid out in this book. (pictures to follow as soon as i can post them somewhere online). He details a method for mounting the submersible electric motor (don't say trolling motor) which I found effective both in my prototype (a 16' Old Town Loon) and the finished hull which is a beautiful sharpie. Basically i installed a teflon tube that passes through the hull that is slightly larger than the motor shaft. There is a skeg that protects the submersible electric that also helps steering. I found that it is very effective, the speed controller is in the cockpit and I use a tiller to steer. With no visible propulsion I get a lot of "hey how are you paddling that thing?" More later and hopefully pics tonight.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Hello All

    I found some pictures of Bob's Electric Sharpie on the Duckworks site and a link to the Douglas Little book on designing and building small electric boats that he referred to.













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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Bigger images. Still trying to figure this picture upload out. What a pain!!!














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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    In Flickr - You usually have to first click the photo to bring up the black-framed viewer, then click the "View All Sizes" link near the top right. Then you can get the image URL by right-clicking the image. Alternately you can go to the Actions menu on the upper left, then select "View All Sizes".

    But from what I can see you have posted them as large as they can be just above. To get anything larger, you'll need to go back to the source and see what is available.

    I can't find anything on Duckworks under "Electric Sharpie" - was there another name used?
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Thanks for the advice Thorne.

    The duckworks link to my brother Bob's pictures and description are as follows:

    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/03/...cmanus/bob.htm

    Or you can just Google "duckworks mcmanus"

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    many thanks to McManusBoatWorks for posting the pics for me. If you look at the pics you will notice that there is only one battery in this boat. Honestly for a car topper I drive to the pond or stream of my choice, and remove the battery from the truck, I boat 5 or six hrs and then put the battery back in the truck and go home. The requirement to go the full 5 knots that this design is capable of seems fast when you are cruising. The sensation of speed you get from being right on the water makes you feel like you are flying at 5 knots! I would say that anyone desiring to build such a boat should keep the speed requirements conservative because this boat at 3 knots feels like 14 kts in a normal skiff. I used the cheapest trolling motor that i could find and i purchased it at a boat show for $99.
    I strongly recommend Douglas Little's book as he has tons of experience with designs like mine and he explains in lay man's detail everything you need to know to enjoy one of the most fun types of boating there is available. We own many boats, Boston Whalers, sailboats, big cruisers, you name it but none compare to a slow quiet cruise through the mangroves in the electric cruiser!

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    Default inboard electric-powered kayak

    Cheers for posting the pics Mcmanusr, really a great looking little boat.

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    Default inboard electric-powered kayak

    Thank you I appreciate the kind words. I feel the need to clarify my last post. When i say i take the battery out of the truck, i mean I open the hood and disconnect the batt and remove it for the trip. Replace it afterwards and go home. This keeps you from having to put a heavy boat in the truck, and it charges the batt for you so you skip the step of taking the batt in the garage and hooking it up to the charger after a day of relaxing cruising. If you install a amp meter and spend some time using the boat you will learn when it is time to return to shore and become confident that the vehicle will start when you put the batt back in. One of the problems with electric boats is that when the batts are dead your toy just sits there until your trickle charger brings the batts back up. This way the boat is always ready when you are.

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    Default inboard electric-powered kayak

    Most modern vehicles won't like having the battery disconnected like that - all sorts of computers, switches, radio settings, alarms rely on having an uninterrupted source of trickle power. And most vehicles use batteries rated for starting power, not length of charge and ability to recharge like a Boat/RV battery.

    Easier to buy a good smart charger and use that on a deep cycle battery in a transport box/case. If you think you might ever use it near the water or at a marina while cruising, get one of the portable marine-rated ones. The solid-state ones without fans are better than the fan-cooled ones if you will be anywhere within earshot -
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default inboard electric-powered kayak

    I just picked up an AGM starting/deep cycle combo battery for $150, rated at 70 amp hours or so. The price on AGMs is coming down a lot, and I think they're cheap enough now that it doesn't make sense to stick with the cheap ones, which don't last as long and can leak acid.

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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    I found a sale at Cabella's and got a 80 ah AGM battery and 6a marine smart charger for $220. My sailboat is trailered so the extra weight of the battery and charger is not a problem. The charger is mounted and wired permanently in the boat so I can just plug the boat in at home.

    Just a note on battery ratings: The 80 amp-hours number refers to how much energy the battery can produce over 20 hours. In this case that would 4 amps for 20 hours. Current and time are not a linear relationship, though. The higher the current the less energy the battery can give up. This 80 ah AGM battery could only produce about 60ah if you discharged it at 16 amps. Pushing a little boat with 12 volts will take usually 10 - 20 amps. Batteries also have a spec called reserve capacity. This is the number of minutes the battery can produce 25 amps. Reserve capacity is a more relevant spec to use when making battery comparisons. For equal amp-hour (technically C20) ratings AMGs are usually better than wet cells.

    Lithium batteries are better than AGM, they have almost no loss of capacity at higher rates of discharge. They are a lot lighter too but come with their own unique issues that boil down to a much higher price. Probably 3X AGM cost if you are an electrical hobbyist wanting to do a science experiment in your boat to 10X AGM for an off-the-shelf robust solution.
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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    I'm considering a trolling motor for my CK 17. What happens if this setup gets submerged--say in a knockdown. I know the electronics in the motor would probably get trashed. I'm more concerned about safety. I called mini kota and they didn't want anything to do with it. basicly they said water and electricity never mix. What do you guys think?

    Thanks
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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    I missed this thread before, but will now contribute my tiny little tidbit. I have a client who has two electric Electa-Ghosts. Fiberglass with a battery box in the middle. Minn-Kota lower unit housed behind the aft bulkhead, and sticking down into a tunnel-hulled sort of cavity in the hull. They use them on their lake a lot during the summer. Love them (that's why they bought a second one). From his description, they don't expect a lot of battery life... like a couple hours max.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/arbordg...7625578561885/





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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Reagrding getting the electronics wet: The most of the electronic parts of the motor are in the lower unit - wet all the time.

    If you keep your boat where you can plug it in to charge, a built in battery charger is a great convenience. I looked at Guest chargers - they have alifetime warranty against water damage, probably all "marine" chargers can withstand water.

    A sealed battery wouldn't leak acid, in fact AGM's can be used in any position except upside down. I would definitely not want a wet battery (where you can unscrew the caps to add water) in any boat. They vent hydrogen when charged and could (would) spill sulfuric acid if rolled far enough over.

    What about any sailboat with a 12v system getting knocked down? 12v safety isn't your biggest problem right then!
    Last edited by mcdenny; 08-22-2011 at 03:41 PM.
    Denny Wolfe
    www.wolfEboats.com

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Wales
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    113

    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Been doing a fair bit of reading up on this over the summer, seems that large props(about 9X9) of an aircraft-type pattern similar to a world war 1 scimitar shape, moving slow (up tp 500rpm) are the way to go, perhaps in a kort nozzle and wired to a LRK type motor. And then I got this month's WB and Thiel's go-slow work so time for another rethink....

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    Belfast and Marshall Cove, Islesboro, Maine
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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Ducted propellers (Kort nozzle or Kitchen rudder) increase bollard pull when towing, and the prop is working at very high slip (like 100% when getting a barge started out. 110% when the barge is pulling you backwards) At very high slip the duct prevents pressure from rolling off the propeller tips. They create a lot of drag, and slow even a tugboat down when running light.
    My brother has a roto-molded 2-person kayak with an electric trolling motor in a well. Uses a deep cycle battery, goes maybe 4kt, battery comes out easily for car-topping. I think it cost him around a thousand dollars, ready to go.

  47. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
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    Lewiston, Maine
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    1,083

    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    It is a kayak right?

    What is wrong with the biologically fueled propulsion system. You put a human body in it with a paddle and feed it.

    you get beneficial exercise to boot.

    The Biological propulsion unit also need not be kept in the kayak and can remove itself and in fact hoist the kayak on the top of the car for you.

    And it has the capability of repairing itself to a limited extent and reproducing it's own replacment withthe assistance of another Biological propulsion unit.

  48. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    The Biological Propulsion Unit (BPU) can also be mass-produced by unskilled labor...

  49. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The headwaters of the Petaluma River and up a hill. ,CA
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    3,532

    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    And it is.
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Savannah, Georgia
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    1,128

    Default Re: inboard electric-powered kayak

    Quote Originally Posted by seo View Post
    The Biological Propulsion Unit (BPU) can also be mass-produced by unskilled labor...
    Unfortunately the bulk of units on the market and in the field today are of an inferior quality.


    Oh wait... sorry... this isn't the Bilge, is it?
    Then once by man and angels to be seen,
    In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die.

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