Building the Maid

[JoshuaIII]

here you go mate:

Hummmmmmm, that's refreshing... (And I am not talking about the beer)

[Sailor]

Yes please.

[Messman]

I'll take 2 please.......

[Vernon]

Those are some nice mugs.

[davebrown]

Interesting. All three of my ex wives in one bar.

[LivingTheDream]

As much as I love that picture, it is going to be a looonnnngggg 2 weeks, isn't it.

How does a collage kid from the Pacific Northwest first get invited to Germany to talk with Mercedes, then somehow end up down in Brazil for 2 weeks? I thought I led a pretty charmed life until I met this guy (well, not actually met).

I am not doubting it, by any means. His work on the Maid tells me he is earning all that he experiences and accomplishes.

I have been 'lurking' and watching this from the beginning, and I look forward to the updates every week, just like the rest of us. I am trying to figure out how to introduce him to my daughter!

Can't wait to hear the stories from Brazil, and the planking to begin in earnest!

[Terry Haines]

I have been reading "Boating Manual" by Robert Steward which is very informative especially on the techniques for a boat of the Maid type of construction. It states that a plank is typically attached with 3 to each frame - which can be staggered if the frame width permits - plus one or two fasteners into the floors. However the boat in the picture provided has the bottom planks flatter than in the Maid so the fasteners would not be into end grain.

I still doubt fasteners into end grain would do much other than weakening the wood, but a fastener that is across the grain would add strength. The book does emphasize how the floors tie the frames firmly to the keel, and I have no doubt about the importance of that . . .

[floatingkiwi]

Interesting. All three of my ex wives in one bar.

LOL.

[Redeye]

Interesting. All three of my ex wives in one bar.

Ex Wifes?

You shoulda kept a harem instead of marrying them... then they could all be current.

[Redeye]

btw,

to impress these ladies you have to wear pants like this:



if you still manage to look good wearing these, then you might have a chance. It's a customary technique to filter out the chaff...

[Vernon]

Ex Wifes?

You shoulda kept a harem instead of marrying them... then they could all be current.

Heck with that, they'd drink all his beer.

[J.Madison]

Alright alright, you are getting restless perhaps. How about an update?

I am trying to figure out how to introduce him to my daughter!

Can't wait to hear the stories from Brazil, and the planking to begin in earnest!

Hey now you're talkin. I figured some of you must have lovely daughters that you've raised up right. (Meaning they want to sail the world.)

So my parents got the bright idea to move to Brazil. Dad is working an engineering job and mom lays on the beach all day. I have to say it was a pretty good idea. Here is the view from their back porch.

Brazil is a wonderful place that you should make great effort to visit. It is warm, they are a classy and cultured people (you'd be surprised how many places are NOT), the women are everything you've ever heard and more, the land is beautiful, etc.. etc...

Here are some highlights:



Foz do Iguazu. One of the natural wonders of the world. 275 discreet waterfalls tumbling out of the rainforest. This photo shows less than half of the total water and about 1/4 of the total width. It was breathtaking. How about another photo just cause it was so cool. (Its water related, that sort of fits the venue.)




Sugar loaf mountain. Only accessible by gondola. Thats Rio de Janeiro in the mist and the Christ statue on the far hill by the radio towers. One of the coolest sunsets I've ever watched.

I spent Easter weekend in the Portuguese colonial town of Paraty. Every high tide the streets flooded right up to the door sills. It flushed the town clean every day.


There are colorful boats everywhere, big or small.

[David G]

And your folks would take THAT over Colton?????? Amazing, I say! <G>

[J.Madison]

Americans paint their boats with such bland colors compared to the majority of the world. Maybe its a cold weather vs hot weather thing. The warmer the weather the more colorful the boats.





There were a couple great old wooden schooners that look like they have dropped anchor indefinitely among the tranquil jungle covered islands just off shore. Some islands were developed with the houses of the wealthy (still accessible only by boat), and some were just little fishing communities living the most ideal life I could think of.

I have a bunch more photos of progress on the Maid, but those are going to have to wait until tomorrow. These will have to hold you until then...

[J.Madison]

So I promised an update, and its to arrive shortly. But first my friend came over with a real camera and got some cool photos, some from angles we haven't seen before. Enjoy...

[J.Madison]

[Sailor]

Keep 'em coming Mr. Madison

[J.Madison]

The lights have been burning late into the night here at the Madison Boat Shop.



The task at hand is fitting the garboard planks. The process involved clamping the plank in place and crawling around with a light trying to see up in the crack to find the high points. Copious notes are taken on the surface of the plank so that it can be pulled off and planed to fit.



Boat building is one of those things where you'll find grown men laying on a cement floor with a blank look in their eyes in the middle of the night completely sober. Even hot rod mechanics are smart enough to lay on a creeper. Not I.





This shot shows the myriad of clamping methods necessary to hold the plank in place. The clamp at the far right end, as well as the one in the middle with the thick oak block proved to be the most powerful and directable style. The extension pad was held off the frame at the top by a small block so it only contacted at the lower end, where force was needed. I also made up a wedge system as Stephane showed, and used my original extension system. Two Conant clamps kept everything forced downwards into the rabbet. All of this had to be reset every single iteration (of which there were many.) Over and over I got it clamped down and marked up, then it was all released and taken to the bench for adjustment. The curved rabbet was fairly difficult because it was difficult to get a perfectly fair curve on the actual rabbet, and that meant shaping the plank to a somewhat unfair curve.



One of the many trips from boat to bench. Photo credit to Courtney Ferris for the above shots.

The rabbet itself also received some trimming attention. There was concern earlier about fairing the end grain of the floor timbers. I can report back that it was not so difficult at all. I have a low angle spokeshave that does wonderful work on end grain. I used it in an upwards motion along the end grain, checking fairness with battens. It only took about 40 minutes to do all of the floors under the plank, which is not bad at all. My arms were fairly sore from doing that curling motion so many times, but that just saves a trip to the gym.

Eventually the fit was pretty good- tight on the inside and open a 1/16th or so on the outside. I dubbed off the back of the plank to match the curve of the frames and put two heavy coats of red lead on the mating surfaces (ignoring the caulking seam- it will get painted after driving the cotton.)



(Back to the cheap camera here if you can't tell.)

The plank will be fastened down as soon as the correct Frearson bit arrives. I got the wrong size initially. Work is progressing on the port garboard as well, and I plan to trace the starboard one onto it to assure the top edges are the same. The edge that fits in the rabbet is not exactly the same due to variation in layout, but as long as the tops are symmetrical planking can progress quickly up from here.

[JoshuaIII]

Nice shot Madison!

Paint is your friend! Paint where your plank lay just before clamping it into place to check the fit, this way where the paint transfert on your plank it's where you need to remove wood! A small wood plane for the edge and spokeshave for the back work wonderfully.

Without it it's just a long nightmare... Just a idea

You have to paint this area after once the plank it cut right anyway...

[Sailor]

Frearson? why not a robertson? They're the best screw as most Canadians who know will attest. Looking good though. I love the progress you're making.

[Terry Haines]

Frearson? why not a robertson? They're the best screw as most Canadians who know will attest. Looking good though. I love the progress you're making.

Agree but they can be hard to get outside Canada . . .

Interesting history at Wiki - old man Robertson wasn't the first to have the idea but was the first to solve the manufacturing problems. He became very suspicious of foreign licenesees after being screwed by a Brit and refused to grant a licence to Henry Ford - Americans have suffered ever since. I read someplace the famous Spitfire fighter plane - or at least its motor - was built with Roberson fasteners.

[J.Madison]

Frearson? why not a robertson?

Because that's what Jamestown Distributors sells. I like using Jamestown because you can always get free shipping and they are pretty quick, at least within the states. To get free shipping just google coupon codes and there are always some good ones.

[JoshuaIII]

Because that's what Jamestown Distributors sells. I like using Jamestown because you can always get free shipping and they are pretty quick, at least within the states. To get free shipping just google coupon codes and there are always some good ones.

eeee I buy all my screws from Jamestown and I do buy robertson which are also the cheapest they sell....

[J.Madison]

Well shoot I didn't see them. Oh well.

[JoshuaIII]

Well shoot I didn't see them. Oh well.

They actually hide it a bit from their search engine, to try to sell the more expensive one is my guess! They never carry it in stock, but usually they receive it within 3 days from ordering...

I order about 2000 of them over the last year, Here the link for the #14:
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...Wood+Screws+FS

Type "Bronze Screw FS" in their search engine to see them.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Jim !

[chuckt]

Fantastic shots of brazil. Wow. I had heard of those falls but didn't know how spectacular they were. On my bucket list. The build looks great too.

[Vernon]

Thank you Jonathan for the subject matter and thanks to your friend for the pictures.
Outstanding in both cases.
Vern

[sailboy3]

I just read and skimmed the whole thread. Incredible.

[marujo.sortudo]

Amazing progress. As a side note, if you're back in Rio and want to go up sugarloaf the other way, you can hike up....

[radman150]

Whats that boat you got hanging from the ceiling?

[Breakaway]

Excellent. Thanks as always for sharing. Be proud of this build!

Kevin

[cmcgovern]

I just read the whole thing too, amazing!

[floatingkiwi]

Agree but they can be hard to get outside Canada . . .

Interesting history at Wiki - old man Robertson wasn't the first to have the idea but was the first to solve the manufacturing problems. He became very suspicious of foreign licenesees after being screwed by a Brit and refused to grant a licence to Henry Ford - Americans have suffered ever since. I read someplace the famous Spitfire fighter plane - or at least its motor - was built with Roberson fasteners.

Say, wasn't that the Seafire?

[J.Madison]

Alright you've been very patient. Time for an update. Day after day has been spent tuning the fit of the garboards. For the starboard garboard I planed the rabbet as fair as I could and then tuned the plank to match. For the port garboard I got it fairly close and then planed the plank fair and adjusted the rabbet to match. The second way was much easier, as putting a fair curve on the plank was simple, but it was quite difficult on the inside curve of the rabbet.

I did end up using a bit of bedding compound under the plank. I did this to fill in the tool marks and dings, fill any slight unfairness at the frame heels, and generally keep the joint tight. The idea is not at all to caulk the boat with dolphinite so I kept it far away from the caulking seam. As you know the water tightness comes from the cotton and wood on wood contact. Bedding compound was really only used aft where there was an acre of back rabbet to get fair.



After the mating surfaces got a couple heavy coats of red lead, the compound was spread and the plank clamped in place, starting aft and working forward.

Then it was just a matter of slowly replacing the clamps with SB screws. I used my family's century old Stanley bit brace to drive the screws.


I am finally the proud owner of my very own bilge.




I also got around to milling up my stash of locust and yew today. The locust came from my uncle and the yew from a neighbor. Another neighbor helped me haul it on yet another neighbor's trailer to a local sawyer recommended by still another neighbor. Helpful bunch they are.





Something like 700 board feet. More locust than I'll use in a while. The color on the yew is dramatic and varied. Pretty stuff. I even milled up a very heavy blank out of swept locust stock so that someday I can have a perfect stem for a cruising boat.

[chuckt]

That looks like a really nice fit on that Garboard. Nice work!

[ILikeRust]

Driving screws with a brace is one of life's simple pleasures, idnit?

Although at a certain point (say, driving a couple hundred of them), it can begin to wear on a person. But you do have much more feel and control than with a modern driver (although I will say that you can have my Milwaukee impact driver when you pry it from my cold, dead, cramped hands).

Looks absolutely great! Nice work.

[Texasgaloot]

Driving screws with a brace is one of life's simple pleasures, idnit?

Ah, the Galoot way. My first choice, as one winds up with much fewer messed up screws, much greater satisfaction, and guns to impress the significant other. Plus, you never wind up with a stuck screw because the battery died...

[Terry Haines]

Say, wasn't that the Seafire?

That was the carrier version, great airborn performance for an early carrier plane but the Spitfire wasn't the ideal starting point for such a plane . . .

[chuckt]

How perfect do you think the fit between the plank and the floor needs to be? Absolutely perfect with not even the smallest gaps? Is a paper-thin gap here and there permitted? And what is the compund you are putting between your frame and plank? I'm thinking about these issues because I have a number of floors to replace and am wondering how perfect the replacement needs to be.

Added note: I guess your post 635 answers my questions. Some tool marks and such called for some bedding compound.

[J.Madison]

I'd say that if a paper size crack is the biggest one I've got than I did better than I thought. I'm using Dolphinite to bed. How good is good enough? Maybe until it's as good as you can get it and getting it better would be more frustrating than progressive? There is nothing perfect that will ever come out of my shop. I just work on it until I feel good about it. Its not something you can decide ahead of time really, I just feel the part and the process until I'm satisfied that its enough. There are plenty of fits that could be better, all of them really. But I am also satisfied with them all. There is such a stigma around wooden boats and the "craftsmanship" that I think people are often turned away by it. Being paralyzed by perfection is not a problem I care to have. I'll build many boats in my life, I've already built several, and each of them will have multitude of errors, but they will all do their job, be beautiful, and bring me great joy in the shop and on the water. That is the point.

What I'm saying is that this is a very philosophical question that I cannot answer for you. When is it good enough? When its good enough! What is the right way to do something? Well... that is a difficult question.

Actually, the question of the right way to do something should be taken one step further. When very young, "the right way" was an almighty concept given from above, we did not even think to ask for a reason or consider an alternative. I thought that a comb-over was how hair was, existentially, because it always had been. (My mom thought it was cute.) Seat belts were an intrinsic part of being in a car. No alternative was possible. The uninitiated look at a boat as one single object with no alternative or shortcoming. It merely is. At some point in growing up or learning about a topic rules and methods were questioned, usually when presented with a difficulty or alternative. But then "the right way" gained a logic and a defensible position. "You have to wear a seat belt because its the law and safe." Or, "Spiling should be done with a compass because that's what Bud McIntosh does." Its defensible. It may even be right. But it does not show a full understanding. Many people never move beyond this.

Eventually one may come to realize a much bigger picture on the "right way". 10,000 car rides without incident is blended cleanly with a full view of physics and chance, an understanding of pain and loss, a sense responsibility stemming from your role in the world around you, memories of seeing a death, etc to influence wearing a seat belt or not. The decision, the method, is not clean cut. It never truly is. But the seat belt and the wreck are all completely without failure. They both do what they are. To bring it back to boats I spent years reading and preaching about the "right way" to do various tasks. The forum is rife with these conversations, some enlightened and some not. But then I realized that there were alternatives and that forced a reckoning. I chose sides in the great debates and continued on my way.

Only after countless successes and failures of my own have I started viewing it in a different way. "Correct" only serves the greater master of "is." My methods are now guided by knowledge of force flow, the intangible properties of wood and metal, and how a plane blade severs grains and produces curls. I think broadly about the meanings of a fair line and the secrets hidden from the world under a plank lap.. etc. When a plank falls nicely into place it does so not because it is "right" but because that is how it "is." The plank simply fits that way and if it has some gaps that is not the failing of the plank but merely the mismatch between two existences. One or the other must be encouraged until it does what you intend. The "right" way of hanging a plank must bow to the way the plank is hung, because when it is hung it is right.

If any of that babbling makes sense you may see that we've circled back around to the first state of being, nearly as it was for those first conscious years of childhood. The "right way" of doing things is only a feeble explanation of the way things are. The existence is absolute and the method only tries to describe it. Spiling is just creating a real shape out of a real piece of wood. There is no "right" way or "good enough." There is just the forming of something until satisfaction.

If you've never compared the rigid 2D way the book explains bending a frame into place with the wobbly and expansive way it actually feels to bend a frame into place then you probably have no idea what I'm talking about. Or perhaps I'm talking about nothing. You decide.

Sorry I didn't really answer your question. I don't have a number for you. Just get the fit until you feel proud of it and then nail it home and go sailing.

Anyway planking is progressing and I'll get some pics up sooner or later.

[Slacko]

I was concerned about getting my floors to fit "properly", so got a boat builder to make and install them.
I asked him about gaps between parts and his answer was, "That is what the epoxy is for". He went on to assure me that even a 25 mm gap can be filled with glue without losing strength, as the glue is stronger than the wood.
Obviously neither he nor I have cut anything that badly wrong, but I stopped fussing at that point if the joint is going to be glassed and/or painted.
If you want to varnish it's another story!!

[Capt Zatarra]

Well said, wish I had said that. One thing that is always in the back of my mind when I work is 'how will I feel about this fit or piece when I am sailing this build, when I can say to myself, 'self this will be just fine' I know I am ready to move on to the next task. Capt. Z.

[Terry Haines]

When fitting a strake the most important matter from a functional perspective is, will it keep the water out? The answer to the question of how it should fit depends on the method of sealing. If you're going to fill the gaps with goop, whether the goop will stay in the gap is what matters most.

However, a goop-free joint doesn't have to fit perfectly from the get-go either, since the wood will expand as it gets wet to seal the joint. In that case all that matters is that the gap is not so jagged or so wide that the wood's natural behaviour is prevented from sealing the leak. So keep it close, keep it smooth but waterproof doesn't imply lightproof . . .

[chuckt]

Well, your answer was so good it deserved a better question. I've done enough to know there is no perfect application although many who possess more patience and ability than I come close. I hope for workmanlike quality and am happy when I achieve that. I'd put your efforts above that. The fit on yoru garboard plank is very nice to look at and, I'm sure, very satisfying for you. Sweet!

[Bob Perkins]

"Last edited by J.Madison; 05-23-2012 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Rambling Nonsense." - Hysterical!

Still my favorite thread of all time.

It took me a couple of years of building to learn the difference between flawless and good enough. Being a perfectionist at heart.. good enough is nearly flawless, but in a lot less time.
Thanks for the great thread.

[Ed Armstrong]

..."Correct" only serves the greater master of "is." ...When a plank falls nicely into place it does so not because it is "right" but because that is how it "is." ...

The Zen of boatbuilding...nice!

Ed

[tigerregis]

Regarding perfection: a pilot friend of mine explained it this way "If you've got a h*rdon and want to keep it, don't f*ck with it". I know it's crude and doesn't belong in an uplifting thread, but it does encapsulate the philosophical questions of perfection.

[chuckt]

We really need to get to the next page on this thread. Every time i come hear the first thing I see is those three German gals. I end up wasting a minute or two stuck admiring em.

[Terry Haines]

Just Right-Click and set as background - no need to worry about getting your fix ever again!