Page 16 of 27 FirstFirst ... 615161726 ... LastLast
Results 526 to 560 of 922

Thread: Building the Maid

  1. #526
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    1,932

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Just came across this and thought you might be interested in seeing this bit in particular:

    As you'll see below, the planking is fastened in two ways: in the case of the double-sawn Osage Orange frames, it is done with large silicon bronze screws. In the case of the steam-bent frames, made of White Oak, they are fastened with copper rivets.
    - Bill T.

    "How many politically-correct people does it take to screw in a light-bulb?"

    "Look, I don't know, but that's not funny."

  2. #527

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Quote Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
    Just came across this and thought you might be interested in seeing this bit in particular:
    - Bill T.

    "How many politically-correct people does it take to screw in a light-bulb?"

    "Look, I don't know, but that's not funny."

  3. #528
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Halifax Harbour, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts
    2,172

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    The last item in that Twin Schooners blog appeared, more or less, as an article in the Chronicle Herald in the last few days.

    I'll see if I can find it and post in Misc. Boat Related, for folks who don't see it here.

    Tom

  4. #529
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    1,174

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    The floor timbers are done, including some pretty tall ones that go deep in the bilge aft.





    You can kind of picture the way the garboards will lay.







    Now I just need to do some fairing and line out the planks below the tuck (the rest are already done) and it will be time to plank. Planking, the single biggest job, and the one that scares the beginner the most, is here. Looking forward to it.

  5. #530
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Challis, Idaho
    Posts
    60

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    You've been a great inspiration Jonathan, I've followed from day one...just to let you know there are more silent ones out here watching your beautiful build.

  6. #531
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Cedarville, New Jersey
    Posts
    1,101

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    That is so awesome looking...
    Fish and ships or is that chips

  7. #532
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Juneau, Alaska
    Posts
    3,751

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    What a timely update! Thanks Jonathan.

    Jim
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  8. #533
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Annapolis, MD
    Posts
    122

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Waiting with much anticipation for the planking.

  9. #534
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Wilmington, DE
    Posts
    113

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    WOW! I have been watching from the beginning and continue to be more impressed with each post. Fantastic job!

  10. #535
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Boston Area
    Posts
    974

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Nice Nice Nice!!!

  11. #536
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    4,919

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Inspiring work my friend. How are you going to treat the end grain on your floors? I see you did not "red lead" them.
    Chuck Thompson

  12. #537
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    1,174

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckt View Post
    Inspiring work my friend. How are you going to treat the end grain on your floors? I see you did not "red lead" them.
    Thank you everyone.

    The floors have not yet been completely faired to the curves of the boat. Once that is done I will seal the end grain with red lead.

    Here is a question for the forum: Should I screw fasten the planking into the end grain of the floors? I have seen conflicting advice about this. What is standard for this type of construction?

  13. #538
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    399

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Thank you everyone.

    The floors have not yet been completely faired to the curves of the boat. Once that is done I will seal the end grain with red lead.

    Here is a question for the forum: Should I screw fasten the planking into the end grain of the floors? I have seen conflicting advice about this. What is standard for this type of construction?
    For a questionable gain in strength vs improved pathway for moisture and rot . . . my $0.02 worth is . . . no.

  14. #539
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, Northern NSW, Australia
    Posts
    16,862

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    It's easy enough to get a syringe and inject red lead into the screw hole. This will have the dual effect of lubricating the screw as it enters the grain of the floor and protecting said grain from rot. If I did I would cross the end grain as much as possible.

    However, on boats where you've got floors attached to frames, rather than independent from frames my understanding is that you screw into frames only. Bob Cleek, James McMullen, or any of the other professionals may correct me on this.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  15. #540
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    159

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Looking good!

    Adding another 2c to Terry’s for the same reasons, plus as Duncan G, says the floors are fixed well to the frames/ribs - thatshould do it.

    Are you screw fixing planks or nail and roves?

    Duncan

  16. #541
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Victoria BC, Canada
    Posts
    445

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Thank you everyone.

    The floors have not yet been completely faired to the curves of the boat. Once that is done I will seal the end grain with red lead.

    Here is a question for the forum: Should I screw fasten the planking into the end grain of the floors? I have seen conflicting advice about this. What is standard for this type of construction?
    I haven't done this myself, and am interested in how the experienced boatbuilders on the forum will respond,but I see Bud McIntosh advocates fastening the planking to the floors "as if your reputation depended on it..." (page 87 of his book).

    Later on, (page 111) in speaking of the garboard, he says to fasten it with screws, because (judging by the discussion) there's no room to rivet down in the bilge - and of course you can't rivet to the keel. However, if you are fastening directly into end grain, I believe a nail will hold better than a screw. I base that on an answer I received from Walt Simmons many years ago when I asked about fastening into end grain on a transom.

    If the garboard won't have to come off anytime soon perhaps anchorfast nails would be the best - this is my opinion only.

    Cheers,

    Jamie

  17. #542
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    5,275

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Won't fastening to the frame and the floor inhibit flexing more than just to the frames. I would think some flexing is good. Keep in mind I've only built plywood and epoxy boats. . .
    __________________________________________________ ________________________

  18. #543
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    159

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Orr View Post
    I haven't done this myself, and am interested in how the experienced boatbuilders on the forum will respond,but I see Bud McIntosh advocates fastening the planking to the floors "as if your reputation depended on it..." (page 87 of his book).

    Later on, (page 111) in speaking of the garboard, he says to fasten it with screws, because (judging by the discussion) there's no room to rivet down in the bilge - and of course you can't rivet to the keel. However, if you are fastening directly into end grain, I believe a nail will hold better than a screw. I base that on an answer I received from Walt Simmons many years ago when I asked about fastening into end grain on a transom.

    If the garboard won't have to come off anytime soon perhaps anchorfast nails would be the best - this is my opinion only.

    Cheers,

    Jamie
    This is sort of going back to the discussion a few weeks ago about sawn and steam bent frames or a combination of the two. i.e. to flex or not?

    Bud McIntosh is obviously advocating ‘fix it alltogether as strong as possible’ his book generally follows the build of a much larger boat than ‘The Maid’ and it has sawn frames. However Bud makes rather vague reference to the frames not being boxed into the keel which as I remember was the way some Herrshoff boats with steam bent frames were built? I have never seen this and it is beyond my comprehension how the whole boat stays together?

    I don’t really understand the ‘flex or not’ thing and am probably asking more questions than giving answers hopefully someone with better knowledge will be along soon.

    It may be of interest to know my own build Paul Gartsides163 of similar size to The Maid has 9 floors spaced between the steam bent frames and trough bolted to the keel and no other fixings (although I will confirm this with Paul at some point)

  19. #544
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    St-Hippolyte, Qc
    Posts
    1,043

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Duncan you are right all design of Paul the floors are in the middle of the frames not touching it and screw fastened frm the planking. They are also spring leaf floor(Laminated) so the grain of the wood have a curves and the screw enter differently. I say that but I have seen his build where he did the same with plank on edge outside of the ballast area.

    Mine is not like that as I wanted sawn frames, and it just make no sense as you have a nice landing area 90degres from the centerline perfect for a floor.

    I bedded the plank going on top of floors with red lead putty, and yes I did throw a screw once a while in there. The reason is more because I was having quite a twist and bend in those area and wanted to reduce the pressure on the few fastener. The qtr BC Fir is really stiff, and as my frames spacing are bigger it also helped to have a tighter fit agains't the floor. I did not use rivet until above the floor, too tight to hammer on the inside.

    Close frame spacing on steam bent frames it's another story, my 2 cents worth I think I would do it anyway. The steam bent frames are small and the 3 bolts going straight in the middle of them weaken them a bit, putting screw at the right angle can always help... If you prepare the area well before...

    But that's me...
    http://www.peacefuljourney.ca/
    BEWARE: I am a native french speaker

  20. #545
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    10,043

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Really, really amazing-keep it up, great work.

  21. #546
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    4,919

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    I went and looked at my Concordia and it appears to me they did not screw into the floors. (It is hard to tell though). There is only one line of bungs and I am assuming these screws are going into frames and not floors.

    I think I am going to CPES and red lead the end grain on my floors when I get to it.
    Chuck Thompson

  22. #547
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    1,174

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    I am still undecided on whether to fasten planking into the floors or not. For strength reasons I want to. I do not think that flexibility is desirable at this location. With the floors bolted to the frames it should all be fairly rigid. Certainly where the planking enters the rabbet it is rigid, because the keel isn't going to flex much with that lead beam bolted on the bottom. In fact, if the frames slip at all relative to the floors I think the garboard will leak pretty substantially. So for strength I want to fasten them, and if I go that route I like the idea of bronze ring nails.

    On the other hand I am hesitant to do it because of starting rot in the end grain. Piercing the end grain with a fastener that is likely to be highly stressed does not seem prudent to longevity. Wet-dry cycles at haulout seem particularly damaging to this kind of fastening. Thanks for checking the Concordia Chuck, if anyone else has firsthand experience with plank floors on steam bent frames I'd love to get a feel for what more the old timers did in this situation.

  23. #548
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Shubenacadie NS
    Posts
    3,517

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    I'd skip it but that's just a gut feel, not any sort of practical experience. Endgrain rot would have me worried. I plan to use bronze floors though so there's precious little chance of endgrain rot there.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  24. #549
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The headwaters of the Petaluma River and up a hill. ,CA
    Posts
    3,603

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Moisture? Doesn't everything in a wood boat get wet down there anyway. Thats wot seels it all up idinit?
    FWIW, my folkboat has oak floors and steamed, replaced with laminated, frames. The frames are riveted with copper roves throughout their length but independent from the floors. The floors have one whopping good 3 inch bronze screw through each plank in its centre of every step, or land, or whatever its called where the floor is perfectly, supposedly, cut to fit that magical flowing curved plane.Thats about 150 to 180 screws. I don't think I would like to see the planks wobbling around down there every time the boat slammed into the water on one side whist the weight of the ballast wanted nothing more than to reposition itself as far as it could from the other side, in a seaway.
    My personal opinion would figure, and I did for hours on end, still do at times, think of the strength and weight necessary down low there, and how the rigidity should, if any, slowly decrease as the hull went up and out, with not too sharp a contrast between what is solid fixed hard and what isn't, so all the loads are distributed up and out in the same way. If I did it again I would add some short frames , kinda like sisters I guess, or fatten the bottoms of the ones there with more lams, from the bottom up so there wasn't a hard spot along the plank where the floors tops all coincided, as it was that plank on both sides on my boat that had extensive splitting that I fixed and the adjacent planks were pretty good.
    Before my deck was on I was aware if how wobbly the whole structure was when walkin around inside, until I drove those one per plank, screws into the floors and man, what a different boat it was instantly. She felt seaworthy beneath my feet just walkin around. Like a giant surfboard she felt like under my legs, ready to ride.
    But that was in my boat.
    I just wanted to add that where you are concerned with rot, couldn't you predrill overize where any fastenings will go, and fill with epoxy, then drill that to take the fastener. Getting through the planking could be tricky though, unless you drilled the areas before the planks went on then mapped them out for bang on accuracy later. Just my crazy head thinkin here.
    Thats what I did on my mast at every screw and through-bolt. Straight outa the Gougeon Bros book.
    Last edited by floatingkiwi; 02-05-2012 at 10:02 PM.
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

  25. #550
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Virolahti,Finland
    Posts
    205

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    I am still undecided on whether to fasten planking into the floors or not. For strength reasons I want to. I do not think that flexibility is desirable at this location. With the floors bolted to the frames it should all be fairly rigid. Certainly where the planking enters the rabbet it is rigid, because the keel isn't going to flex much with that lead beam bolted on the bottom. In fact, if the frames slip at all relative to the floors I think the garboard will leak pretty substantially. So for strength I want to fasten them, and if I go that route I like the idea of bronze ring nails.

    On the other hand I am hesitant to do it because of starting rot in the end grain. Piercing the end grain with a fastener that is likely to be highly stressed does not seem prudent to longevity. Wet-dry cycles at haulout seem particularly damaging to this kind of fastening. Thanks for checking the Concordia Chuck, if anyone else has firsthand experience with plank floors on steam bent frames I'd love to get a feel for what more the old timers did in this situation.
    Here Finland we had very famous boat builder Eino Antinoja (if google, you see which kind of boats he builded)many S&S designs, he used bronze screws to tie planks and floors. His method was laminated oak frames and oak floor connected with bronze bolts to each other.
    Folkboat, like Kerrys, with independent floors must to have screws to floors, there must be connect floors to frames via planks.

    My opinion, there is less movement with screws than without, that's better.

    Matti

  26. #551
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Shubenacadie NS
    Posts
    3,517

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Could you not just use thickened epoxy and glue them on? Of course you drive screws, rivets etc whatever your going to do through the frames. This way, you don't put holes through the plank right beside the frame holes for nails ( I'll presume you're going to rivet her). You still have the connection of the thickened epoxy, which is out of the sun so less prone to fail ( according to Larry, it's the sun that causes this to happen so down there it shouldn't be an issue) If it fails, you're still riveted through the frames RIGHT NEXT to the floors and you don't pierce the floor's endgrain possibly promoting rot. I think this is an area where even a traditionalist (you and I both) can agree that it would be acceptable to use the googe.
    Caveat, I'm not an expert and have yet to build so take my advice with a grain of salt and wait until the big guns chime in.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  27. #552
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lynden, Wa
    Posts
    3,093

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    I am still undecided on whether to fasten planking into the floors or not. For strength reasons I want to. I do not think that flexibility is desirable at this location. With the floors bolted to the frames it should all be fairly rigid. Certainly where the planking enters the rabbet it is rigid, because the keel isn't going to flex much with that lead beam bolted on the bottom. In fact, if the frames slip at all relative to the floors I think the garboard will leak pretty substantially. So for strength I want to fasten them, and if I go that route I like the idea of bronze ring nails.

    On the other hand I am hesitant to do it because of starting rot in the end grain. Piercing the end grain with a fastener that is likely to be highly stressed does not seem prudent to longevity. Wet-dry cycles at haulout seem particularly damaging to this kind of fastening. Thanks for checking the Concordia Chuck, if anyone else has firsthand experience with plank floors on steam bent frames I'd love to get a feel for what more the old timers did in this situation.
    My uneducated opinion: I think you may be over-thinking this. As much as I admire your thoroughness and forward thinking, this ultimately is not a blue-water boat, nor is it thaaat big. I suspect that fastening to the frames alone would be more than sufficient.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

  28. #553
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Zürichsee
    Posts
    865

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Quote Originally Posted by floatingkiwi View Post
    Thats what I did on my mast at every screw and through-bolt. Straight outa the Gougeon Bros book.
    Yup that's what I did also on every hole i drilled for any fitting on the skiff. all deck hardware is screwed down with epoxy in the screw holes first. Every hole in the mast got the same treatment. Holes in the mast for the hounds were coated on the inside then left to cure, then resized back to original size.
    R
    __________________
    Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer -- Voltaire

  29. #554
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    1,174

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Update time:

    When I left you last, the rabbet aft looked something like this.



    It had not been cut at all. So I spend some tedious time getting it ready for planking.



    That completed, I lined out the garboard plank. It ended up being a foot tall at its highest point and tapering to a 1.5" nib halfway down the boat. This wedge shape brings the planking to within an inch of parallel with the tuck so the planks above it can have mostly parallel sides. For a better description see Larry Pardey's book. The best section in that whole book is on lining out in my opinion.

    So you would think that I'd be happily fitting garboards at this point, but I must take you down a bit of a rabbit trail. I decided that I needed some instant gratification. The timeline on this boat (my timeline for being sailing is measured in years) has got me feeling like finishing a project is some distant abstraction that could never possibly be real. To disprove that thought, and prove that finishing a project is a distinct possibility, I have started a wheelbarrow boat.

    I saw the design in the shantyboat article and was taken by it. Turns out that a "how-to" article was written on construction a while back. So I laid into it. The project is being done in what I consider the way wooden boats ought to be built. It will be constructed completely from scrap cedar and oak cut in my neighborhood. Fastenings are galvanized boat nails, with the exception of the copper riveted plank laps.



    It took a lot of force to bend the garboards in so I used a spanish windless setup.





    This is rough and dirty work, and I love it. I realize that not everyone can work this way but I am sure glad that I can. I think that this is what the old small boat shops were like, a builder living close to the forest- using wide planks and working quickly with galvanized nails. Nobody else had their forest cut down and exported to build this boat. No lumber yard costs or high expense for anything. I don't care if it lasts 10 years instead of 20. It took me about three days of work to get from an idea to this point. Three days! That much work on the Maid would barely be noticeable.

    Fear not, I will shortly be back to leaning my weight into the planking on the Maid, and I'll have myself a wheelbarrow boat to mess around with on breaks.

    Here's one more pic to prove that I still love her:


  30. #555
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    399

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    It'll make a handy tender for the Maid!

  31. #556
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Boston Area
    Posts
    974

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    This is still in the top 3 threads all time.
    and I can't tell you what the other 2 were at the moment..
    Thanks for taking the time for us

  32. #557
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    14,237

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Brilliant!!
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  33. #558
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lynden, Wa
    Posts
    3,093

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Perkins View Post
    This is still in the top 3 threads all time.
    and I can't tell you what the other 2 were at the moment..
    Thanks for taking the time for us

    My vote is Lenihan's Thread and Ledger's Catboat thread.

    As far as which one is in which place? I don't think they really compare. Its 3 different ways of approaching a build, all executed well. And thats what makes the WoodenBoat Forum such a great place.

    Keep up the work Jonathon!
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

  34. #559
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Cedarville, New Jersey
    Posts
    1,101

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition...

    Most people don't even know what a Spanish windlass is. Looking good.
    Fish and ships or is that chips

  35. #560
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, Northern NSW, Australia
    Posts
    16,862

    Default Re: Building the Maid

    I love this shot:



    Four boats together: Two in frame, one just about finished and a completed lovely just in picture on the RHS.

    Splendid work Mr Madison!
    Last edited by Duncan Gibbs; 02-20-2012 at 09:26 PM.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •