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Thread: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

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    Default Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    This design is the most recently revealed Bolger design, published posthumously, named the Advanced Sharpie AS-34. It is reminiscent of several the designs in the last decade, with the cutwater stem (seen in the New England Fisheries series), with filleted pieces and overhanging deck at the bow. There were a number of variations on the AS-3xxx designs on the drawing board, but this one is released and plans are for sale from Phil Bolger & Friends. (As written up in the magazine Messing About in Boats from last month.) That rig is another form of the Bolger "Chinese Gaff", a variant mix of a gaff rig and a Chinese lug rig. (The notable variation is that the flexible full length battens bear on the masts, and the main gaff is sheeted from the top of the mizzen mast which is acting as a sheeting staff.) Both the masts are tabernacled, and there are two dinghies nestled on deck.

    http://www.hallman.org/bolger/AS34/


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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Sorry for being so ignorant, but is the cut water supposed to make a smoother ride re: the tendency (that I've only read about, no experience ) of a sharpie to pound upwind in the choppy stuff? That is one sexy box IMO, but I'd be remiss not to point out that I really like the clunky, funky, and just about anything Bolger.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    I guess the shape had to get more and more complicated to address the basic issues of the less advanced sort of sharpie. Looks like a good cruiser's rig!
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by perldog007 View Post
    Sorry for being so ignorant, but is the cut water supposed to make a smoother ride re: the tendency (that I've only read about, no experience ) of a sharpie to pound upwind in the choppy stuff?
    I believe one purpose of the cutwater is to effectively lengthen the displacement waterline length, while at the same time effectively widen the living space and deck space of the boat. As top hull speed depends on the shape of the wake waves, put in other terms, the depth of the hole you dig in the water. Having a long narrow central portion of the boat that extends far forward, you dig a shallower hole, and hence enjoy a higher theoretical top hull displacement speed.

    A secondary thing about this hull shape is that it is buildable out of developed flat planes. In other words, you can get this curvy shape by bending sheets of plywood, and that needs less skill (faster & cheaper) than more complex convex boat building methods.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Are those footholds for climbing in over the bow? Or are they for something else, or even an artifact from the rendering process? I can't quite figure them out yet. Looks kinda like a boarding ladder though.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    The bow looks like a take-off of a canoe, now if I could understand why a canoe's bow is shaped like that I'd be able to contribute an idea as to why this bow might be really effective.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    I bet that is an artifact of the conically derived sections needed to get the plywood to bend around that shape and therefore similar to the conically derived section needed to get a flat sheet of birchbark to do the same. It is a materials based element, an optimax of its boundaries, not an optimum.
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    According to Susanne the bow could be changed to plumb if they found the reverse shape too much to bear. I think the shape is really one of her influences on Bolger's last works. The update of "Loose Moose" (sometimes called AS39) into "Le Cabotin" had the same bow treatment. Let's just call it 'style'. Love it or hate it, it does have make statement.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    A plumb stem seems like it would torture the panel more and reduce a little volume forward, right where you'd want it most. Sheet ply can be fairly insistent about its boundaries. It's gonna take some serious twisting or multiple courses of thinner ply to get to scantling thickness for a boat of this size anyways. Devlin's now doing multiple layers as a matter of routine in his bigger boats whenever the twist gets pronounced, just because it's easier that way.
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    I was only reporting what Susanne Altenberger wrote in the recent MAIB which introduced the design. She said they could give a more traditional profile if the owner desired.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Looks kinda like a boarding ladder though.
    Yes, definitely a boarding ladder. A safety feature. I have seen some of the other AS-3xxx concept drawings and this is 'safety ladder' is a theme, sometimes seen on the rudder(s).

    Also, worth mentioning with this AS-34 is the clever optimization and synchronization of the interior space layout with the swinging board case, and the recessed deck niche for two dinghies. (Two dinghies is also a safety/convenience feature, because a two-some couple cruising together are not subject to the frustration of one party getting stuck on the boat, or on shore.) The space under the dinghy niche is utilized by a 'sitting headroom' 6ft6inch bench seat/guest berth, with the back of that seating being the swinging board case.

    One main point of the recessed dinghy niche, also with the downward sloping foredeck, is to increase sight-lines and visibiliity from the cockpit to the water just in front of the boat. My personal, and subjective, impression of the curved stem is that it serves to integrate visually and aesthetically with the downward sloping foredeck. A downward sloping foredeck with plumb stem would aesthetically clash, (in my subjective opinion).
    Last edited by brucehallman; 02-25-2011 at 12:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by John Bell View Post
    ... her influences on Bolger's last works.
    Phil Bolger made it loud and clear that ever since roughly the late 1980's that all of his work was collaborative. He treated Susanne Altenberger as an equal partner. The influences between these two designers was a two-way process. I have had encounters with people that love and that hate either or both of these people. It cannot be denied that both of these people are/were talented boat designers, and their work together I believe benefited from the power of collaboration, sort of like Jazz music.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    I keep biting my tongue, because I'm not convinced that Suzanne's influence was uniformly positive. Bolger's earlier work strove for simplicity; many of the later designs are needlessly complex.

    If you think that her influence was generally positive, can you point us to detailed accounts from happy, well-satisfied owners who've built and operated one of the designs that she strongly influenced? For instance, are there any reports on the performance of boats with a hull shape similar to this one?

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Didn't you have a Topaz, Steve? Or have I got you confused with someone else?

    Anyway, I thought Topaz was a great looking boat of the somewhat later Bolger style which I beleive was certainly influenced by SA.

    As for the difference Steve notes above, I think it's telling to compare their respective voices in their writings. Phil is Hemingway to Susanne's Faulkner. Phil always was able to convey his ideas in a minimum of words without being terse. He wrote in a simple but literate fashion. Susanne on the other hand, adds detail after detail, and doesn't seem to know when to stop. Phil's essays in MAIB are a joy to read. He could tell you about the boat and the ideas behind it in a page or less of text. When Susanne was writing, the prose was a lot less elegant and it often took three issues with 3 dense pages of text for her to get it out.

    I think this spilled over into their designs. Simple and elegant became ever more comliplicated and excessively detailed. I rather suspect this is the big reason so many commissions for boats were delayed late in his life. She's obviously bursting with ideas that overwhelmed his ability to filter them and work them out on paper for his clients.

    I kind of agree with Steve here about not being whether her influence was always positive. I like some oof the style of later designs like Topaz, but others like the AS34 just leave me cold.
    Last edited by John Bell; 02-25-2011 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Paskey View Post
    I keep biting my tongue, because I'm not convinced that Suzanne's influence was uniformly positive. Bolger's earlier work strove for simplicity; many of the later designs are needlessly complex.

    If you think that her influence was generally positive, can you point us to detailed accounts from happy, well-satisfied owners who've built and operated one of the designs that she strongly influenced? For instance, are there any reports on the performance of boats with a hull shape similar to this one?
    I count SteveP as one of the people that are dissatisfied. Taking my Jazz metaphor further: I really liked Mile Davis' Kind of Blue, but it took me a couple decades to learn to appreciate the ground-breaking genius of Miles Davis' Bitches Brew.

    To me, the real genius of the last couple decades of Mr. Bolger's five decades of design work is the meta-level concepts. You can only paint "Starry Night" once, and you can only do so many "simplicity" Instant Boats. In the last decade of PCB-SA design work they were dedicated to two very impressive "meta-level" boat design concepts. One, reinventing the US Navy (in their design collaboration with Michael Bosworth), and two reinventing the collapsed world fisheries (in their design conceptual work finding economic models for fisheries in the era of $5/gallon diesel fuel and their Advanced Fisheries series of boat building and sustainable fisheries.)

    It kind of makes all our navel gazing hobby boat stuff seem trivial. Susanne Altenberger, and Phil Bolger did this meta-design work together, collaboratively.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Have to admit, if a windfall befell me one of these parked on millionaires row in some Florida Canal or someplace like Brigantine NJ. would be a distinct possibility. It's just so wrong it somehow seems right. I really don't like the look but it intrigues me. Were I in a position to take on such an experiment I would have a hard time resisting.

    Beautiful? Can't say that but it has it's own thing going on there IMO.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    I'm a fan of Bolger's work, and a major fan of sharpies, but I find the design gratuitously ugly, and it seems to me that it's lost the simplicity that makes sharpies attractive in the first place. If you're going to have that many seams, why not build a V-bottomed boat?

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    ... it seems to me that it's lost the simplicity that makes sharpies attractive in the first place. If you're going to have that many seams, why not build a V-bottomed boat?
    What is it that makes sharpies attractive anyway? One reason is that they are relatively efficient boats, that meaning being fast with low power. One unattractive thing about sharpies is their narrowness, which makes the inside space, and the deck space pretty tight. This AS-34 kind of solves that trade off problem, where the waterline sees a sharpie, and the cabin/deck space is made wide for functionality.

    One advantage of this shape over a "V-bottom" is that this boat can sit flat on its bottom in a dry out berth (cheaper berthing).

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Yep, the sharpie you want to look at is Haiku, and for a weekend sail, probably still the Haiku. But if you were going on a 3-month cruise, you'd be much more comfortable in an AS-34.

    The shape looks a bit complex, but it is designed to go together very quickly and easily. The real issue is the same one that comes up over and over with designs of this type -- all the used plastic boats out there that can be had for a song.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Yep, the sharpie you want to look at is Haiku, and for a weekend sail, probably still the Haiku. But if you were going on a 3-month cruise, you'd be much more comfortable in an AS-34.
    If I were going on a 3-month cruise, why would I choose a sharpie? By the time you've got all the gear aboard, the light displacement is gone. My problem with this design is that it's as if he were given a design brief that would seem to make a sharpie a bad choice, and the demand that the boat should be a sharpie.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    The boat looks pretty fat for a sharpie. I don't actually know what the design brief was, but I suspect shoal draft and sheet plywood was mentioned in there somewhere, along with cruising amenities.
    Personally, I kind of prefer the 39' Fiji, but I agree with a previous sentiment that these boats, including the smaller Col. Hassler - and even the round bilged Yonder - are perhaps overly complex. They do sport some nifty features and systems, but if it was me, I'd probably be unwilling to actually take the time to build many of them. In BWAOM, Mr. Bolger said the older advanced sharpies were "complicated and expensive." PB&F obviously did have some glimmerings for improvements, but he certainly didn't make them less complicated or expensive.

    Steve Paskey: If you think that her influence was generally positive, can you point us to detailed accounts from happy, well-satisfied owners who've built and operated one of the designs that she strongly influenced? For instance, are there any reports on the performance of boats with a hull shape similar to this one?

    I believe, but am just guessing, that this may have all started with Loose Moose 2, which was subsequently upgraded to "Les Cabotins," with many new features that seem to have eventually morphed into designs like the AS-34. The folks who sail Les Cabotins seemed very pleased with the upgrade. I think you could find that report on the net fairly easily.
    I must admit to finding the LC upgrade to be unattractive . . . function trumping all seems to be a theme in the latter years, at least among most of those boats that I'm familiar with.
    Last edited by DGentry; 02-26-2011 at 12:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Steve Paskey asked,"If you think that her influence was generally positive, can you point us to detailed accounts from happy, well-satisfied owners who've built and operated one of the designs that she strongly influenced? For instance, are there any reports on the performance of boats with a hull shape similar to this one? "

    I have yet to read nor am I aware of any specific reports concerning these second generation or new Bolger/Altenberger designs Steve. However, I suspect this may be due to most of them being larger designs and many may have yet to be completed yet. Furthermore, these Bolger/Altenberger designs are fresh new designs,pretty much in the category of prototypes and as such some may experience un-expected surprises, both good and bad, as sometimes occurs with prototypes. Such events are perfectly normal to trail-blazers and errors need not be all damming toward the designers.

    However, compounding factors somewhat is something WoxBox mentions when he wrote"....is designed to go together very quickly and easily." Speaking strictly from my own experience with my present build(Bolger WINDERMERE design, a 31' estuary cruiser). I've discovered there is a world of a difference between the concept and the excecution of the concept. Unless one has already a large yard, with enclosed,heated/cooled shop space big enough to build the entire boat in, along with pretty much some full time help and lots of personal time to devote to the build, these big sharpies are not necessarily "easy" nor "quick" for a solo builder working in less than ideal conditions. This sort of"discovery" by an amateur builder may cause all sorts of grief for the project and may result in the builder tossing in the towel and/or becoming very dis-illusioned to the point of lambasting someone......

    Plywood is a fine medium for building a boat with. Small boats, say in the dinghy class, often require only a couple of sheets of ply,some dimensional lumber and presto,a boat is built quick and cheap in a garage or apartment. Bolger designed a small dink called BRICK which is about as ugly and cheap as one can go.If I recall correctly, Bolger wrote of it saying....[she is so ugly it will unlikely ever get stolen and so cheap to build, it wouldn't break your heart if it was stolen.] I dare say the"cheap" part may apply for most plywood boats up to near twenty feet. Once you begin going much bigger with a plywood boat, the costs of just the building infrastructure and the committment of time required to realise the project get to the point where going the quick-n-dirty route is just plain reckless if not careless on behalf of the builder. Expressed another way, it would require about the same commitment of time and infrastructure costs to build a 30 footer out of garbage plywood as it would if one went with the most expensive plywood available. With this in mind, I believe it best to not cheat too much on materials nor aim too low in the "good enough" standard ratings for workmanship. Afterall, there is an expectation of use once the boat is finished and robust longevity of the product is important to acheive if one wishes to truly enjoy the fruits of ones labour. Big plywood boats are not intended to be virtually "disposable" boats, the way a BRICK may be viewed.

    This brings me back to these big Bolger/Altenberger designs. They may not be everyones cup of tea in terms of looks nor may they be the best design for everyone. What they are is the manifestation of a particular clients' "wish list" and a designer generally attempts to deliver the goods to the best of his/her abilities. It is also in the best interest of the client to have a crystal clear wish list of what he wants, know clearly how he is going to go about building it, and in the end know how he is going to use it.Any lack of clarity in one of these three areas could be heart breaking if not dream shattering once the project gets under weigh.

    I've been rather fortunate so far with my own project as it continues to excite me and feed happy dreams of future use. I can only hope the same for the client(s) who commissioned the AS-34, illustrated here so well by Bruce Hallman.


    Cheers!


    Peter
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    I believe, but am just guessing, that this may have all started with Loose Moose 2, which was subsequently upgraded to "Les Cabotins," with many new features that seem to have eventually morphed into designs like the AS-34. The folks who sail Les Cabotins seemed very pleased with the upgrade. I think you could find that report on the net fairly easily.
    I must admit to finding the LC upgrade to be unattractive . . . function trumping all seems to be a theme in the latter years, at least among most of those boats that I'm familiar with.

    Hi Mr.Gentry,

    You'll have a time of it if you went searching for "Le Cabotin" as Jean and Gaby had to find another name for their AS-39 since "Le Cabotin" was already taken.

    She is called " L' anèmone" and you can find some interesting comparisons here between the original AS-39 "LOOSE MOOSE" à la Bolger and the improved version à la Bolger/Altenberger on this page:
    http://boatbits.blogspot.com/2006/08...-sighting.html

    The new "nose" provides increased bouyancy up forward and a quieter ride with a anti-kerflumper(sp) under the bow. The addition of the pilot house enhances on board comfort considerably as it keeps one sheltered from cold wet winds etc....Not all that bad considering the simple shape of the boat. Their choice of colour.....well......it is their choice




    That new nose.....hard to see the nice organic curves shaped into the forward bottom, but it is there and I can say with confidence,it works as advertised.





    Nifty and comfy pilot house.Also works as intended.






    Madman at the helm. Rarely works at all and just wants to drink beer and play all the time



    Cheers!


    Peter
    Do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,now!
    J.Lennon

    This boat was built with ten thumbs.No fingers were harmed in anyway.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Peter, what does that most beautiful thing I've ever seen draft? I really do like that boat, it looks like just the thing for anarchy, entertaining, and laying on it's belly in the mud where no one will bother it.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by perldog007 View Post
    Peter, what does that most beautiful thing I've ever seen draft? I really do like that boat, it looks like just the thing for anarchy, entertaining, and laying on it's belly in the mud where no one will bother it.

    I can't recall exactly what the figures are but it is something like 12" light and maybe 13.5" with a load of beer,booze and babes. Of course, with the off-center centerboard(enclosed leeboard) down, she requires about 4' for maximum sailing advantage. But yes, she could be snaked up some very skinny bits of water under power and rest forever on her exterior steel ballast plate without much concern for the bottoms composition.


    Cheers!


    Peter
    Do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,now!
    J.Lennon

    This boat was built with ten thumbs.No fingers were harmed in anyway.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    [QUOTE=P.L.Lenihan;2899335]
    Cheers!
    Peter
    Yes. Peter is describing the 39 footer in the series, the AS-39. (I believe that at least two were built.) The AS-34 is the most recent design in the series, see the top of this thread. The one just smaller, and I think the first from the series, is the AS-29. Many more AS-29's have been built, I would guess they number in the dozens.

    http://www.flickr.com/search/?ss=2&w=all&q=AS29



    There is also the AS-19, a daysailer, and the Long Micro belongs in the series, and comes in at about 25 feet.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    What I admire and respect about the Bolger/Altenberger collaboration is the fearlessness with which the designs were executed. To me it was "thinking outside of the box" while still fearlessly using the box as the core unit of the boat. Anyone who builds the AS-34 is the "mother" of the boat so will certainly be able to love it no matter how ugly some perceive the design. If the AS-34 is thought of as a very capable thin water houseboat, the owner/builder would not be disappointed.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 02-27-2011 at 10:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    The Jessie Cooper is another important part of this series. It predates the other live-aboard sharpies mentioned and demonstrated how much living space you can put into the boxy shapes.



    The Far Harbor 39 from Bob Perry strikes me as a high-priced version of the AS39. The proportions and concept are similar, but done modern-yacht style.



    Like them or not, I do think these boats are ahead of the curve and the underlying philosophy if not the design details will come to be more and more common.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    The Jessie Cooper is another important part of this series. It predates the other live-aboard sharpies mentioned and demonstrated how much living space you can put into the boxy shapes.
    Yes, how could I forget the Jessie Cooper. At 25 feet, a workable live-a-board for a single person, or loving couple.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/tags/jessiecooper/


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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    She is called " L' anèmone" and you can find some interesting comparisons here between the original AS-39 "LOOSE MOOSE" à la Bolger and the improved version à la Bolger/Altenberger on this page:
    http://boatbits.blogspot.com/2006/08...-sighting.html

    Not to take away from the AS34 thread I really think that Anemone should not be deemed an "improved" version of the Loose Moose design but something "different".

    The fact is, that the L'Anemone design addressed supposed problems in the Loose Moose design that were not in fact problems at all... We should know as we sailed Loose Moose 2 thousands of miles (including trans Atlantic) and never experienced any of the issues or so called problems stated as being problematic.

    We were very happy campers with the Loose Moose (AS39) design...

    Not saying that L'Anemone is a bad boat (I expect it is excellent in fact) just pointing out that it is not an improvement and the Loose Moose design seriously rocked.

    Bob

    http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
    http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
    http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    why would you build one of these in the larger sizes especially to yacht finish cost and standard? The costs would be similar to a "real" boat that sails decently on all points, looks way better and most importantly has higher resale, which is what happens when you outgrow or fall out of love. You can guarantee that you fall will be selling it at some stage and I would suspect your recovery rate to be about 10 cents in the dollar or less as opposed to about 60 cents for a real boat. ouch!
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    The steps were placed in the bow for beach-ability. I doubt they would be much good in everyday use but when the bow is on the beach they're right there where you need 'em.
    Goat Island Skiff and Simmons Sea Skiff construction photos here:

    http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w...esMan/?start=0

    and here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/37973275@N03/

    "All kings are not the same."

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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Paul G:why would you build one of these in the larger sizes especially to yacht finish cost and standard? The costs would be similar to a "real" boat that sails decently on all points, looks way better and most importantly has higher resale, which is what happens when you outgrow or fall out of love. You can guarantee that you fall will be selling it at some stage and I would suspect your recovery rate to be about 10 cents in the dollar or less as opposed to about 60 cents for a real boat. ouch!
    Perhaps the costs would be similar, but a building method that saves you a year or two seems pretty desireable - esp if you don't need to master "real" boatbuilding skills first. Sheet plywood boats go together in 4'x8' chunks, not carefully bevelled board by board. So they go together (relatively) fast, with relatively unskilled labor.

    And most "real" boats in these sizes need at least 4-6 feet of water to just float in, and my personal experience is that not only does that rule out a whole lot of sailing water, it is definitely limiting to where you can anchor, especially in popular areas.
    And, these boats may not go to windward like a modern fin keeled, marconi rigged, racer/cruiser, but they purportedly still sail "decently." I'd say that anything other than close hauled, they probably sail better than that.

    And, their free standing rigs do not require hundreds of feet of wire rope to keep them standing - and that "real" kind of rigging relies on lots of disconcertingly teeny parts, all requiring vigilant inspection. Many of the rigs on these advanced sharpies are in tabernacle, too, allowing for lots of advantages not found on "real" boats.

    So, I think there are definitely legitimate reasons to build a cruising boat like this. I daresay resale value is pretty bad, though.
    Last edited by DGentry; 02-27-2011 at 01:15 PM.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    I can see the reasoning behind the design, but knowing the time and energy required to build even a small boat I cannot see how a 40 footer with a massive internal volume would be much cheaper to fit out. Sure there are less curves but you cannot get something for nothing, and if a builder wants a beautiful aesthetically pleasing interior, if anything it would cost more as there is more of it!

    Like anything you can do it on the cheap which fulfills a specific and appropriate purpose but there is reason why boats generally cost as much as they do and I don't believe that you can take a shortcut to achieve the same result. Take the freestanding masts- for this boat they have low loadings I would presume and could be made relatively easily but there is a price for that in sailing ability. Why dont boats have freestanding rigs if they cost so little? because they dont deliver the same performance and reliability at the same cost as a stayed rig. Even the bleeding edge boats dont use them yet.

    Yes the sharpie form lends itself to max volume for the dollar but how well does it really sail when it gets rough? Any boat or car crate can float up a river but can it beat of a lee shore when the motor fails?

    These boats are practical a certain narrow parameters but I am getting the impression there is a lot of fanboy stuff that goes with bolger. Small ugly boats cost next to nothing likewise small beautiful boats, the inverse is also true. Look at a ferro craft, you can buy them for nix yet the gear is worth as much as on a glass or wood or steel boat.
    whatever rocks your boat

  35. #35

    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    I daresay resale value is pretty bad, though.
    If you are building any boat for resale value, I suggest you check you values. These boats value is good when measured in by function per dollar or function per foot. They look like great live-a-boards.

    About the only advantage of a "real rig", (meaning a Marconi Bermudan sloop) is the windward ability. Measured on almost every other measure of interest to boaters who are not racers, there are unfortunately compromises. And even to windward, Bermudan sloops depend on the quality of the cut of the sail, and sails wear out quickly, so the cost of replacements to keep at top windward ability gets into serious money.

  36. #36

    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    ...can it beat of a lee shore when the motor fails?
    I will let Bob Wise answer based on his personal experience in an AS-39. One thing I can say about these boats is that (unlike Bermudan sloops) they float in water that is knee deep, so you would have to be in a rare hard knock situation that you could not simply walk to safety.

  37. #37
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    About the only advantage of a "real rig", (meaning a Marconi Bermudan sloop) is the windward ability. Measured on almost every other measure of interest to boaters who are not racers, there are unfortunately compromises. And even to windward, Bermudan sloops depend on the quality of the cut of the sail, and sails wear out quickly, so the cost of replacements to keep at top windward ability gets into serious money.
    I disagree, the marconi rig is very handy. Its easy to handle compared to a gaff and it goes very well indeed. Look at the racers that could choose any configuration, especially around the world where they generally go with it. The marconi rules.
    I also disagree with the cost of sails, a well made gaff costs the same as a well made marconi. You can sail with old bags but that wont get you off a lee shore.
    whatever rocks your boat

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    I will let Bob Wise answer based on his personal experience in an AS-39. One thing I can say about these boats is that (unlike Bermudan sloops) they float in water that is knee deep, so you would have to be in a rare hard knock situation that you could not simply walk to safety.
    Where we sail, which is a very nice place indeed, 25 knots and 3 meter swells onto jagged rocks would not see you walking anywhere
    whatever rocks your boat

  39. #39

    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    It might be of interest to re-read what Annie Hill wrote about choice of rig for Voyaging:
    Voyaging people tend to choose downwind passages, and for sailing downwind the Bermudan rig is hopeless. Indeed once the sail if much abaft the beam, the sails loose a lot of efficiency, and many people with a small mainsail rig drop the mainsail altogether as the only way to keep the headsail full. Once the wind is on the quarter you have to fool around with booming poles and boom vangs to keep everything out to the side, and then you are really up a gum tree when you want to change course in a hurry. Even then your mainsail will be doing a lousy job because it will be nowhere near squared off to avoid chafing on the spreaders.
    Unless you are a racer, windward ability is not everything. And, I can attest from personal experience, the AS-XX type of boat are shockingly fast on reach and run, beating the pants off of the sloops.

  40. #40
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    If you are building any boat for resale value, I suggest you check you values. These boats value is good when measured in by function per dollar or function per foot. They look like great live-a-boards.
    A good point, no boat is great resale but the more "personal" and specific the smaller the market. If you did need to sell you may be waiting a looooong time and accepting a looooow price compared to a more conventional craft. But if you love it and cost is irrelevant go for it- still I cant see how you can get the same quality for a significantly lesser price.
    whatever rocks your boat

  41. #41
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    About 30 years ago Phil wrote, "Sharpies, even steel ones, only make economic sense if they have cheap engines, cabins, decks, and rigs, as well as cheap bottoms. I drew a Westerbeke because I didn't have a drawing of the old Perkins scrounged out of a defunct tractor. New marine diesels are too rich for the blood of a boat like this. The cabin and deck are about as straightforward as possible. I thought of adding a low trunk on top of the raised deck to get 6 feet or more headroom, but I didn't like its looks and convinced myself that the complication wasn't warranted." That philosophy was expressed writing about Lions Paw in 30 Odd Boats. Such austerity lead to numerous iconic designs (mentioned above), somehow I don't think these newer "more advanced sharpies" will gain the significant following of the earlier boats.....
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  42. #42

    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Where we sail, which is a very nice place indeed, 25 knots and 3 meter swells onto jagged rocks would not see you walking anywhere
    These AS-xx boats work to windward good enough, where they fall short is the last couple degrees of pointing ability that comes with the price of a Marconi rig. I grant that there are wicked lee shores in New Zealand, and even so, if wrecked on a rocky shore I would prefer to do it in a shallow draft boat than a deep draft boat.

  43. #43
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    It might be of interest to re-read what Annie Hill wrote about choice of rig for Voyaging:

    Unless you are a racer, windward ability is not everything. And, I can attest from personal experience, the AS-XX type of boat are shockingly fast on reach and run, beating the pants off of the sloops.
    Perhaps but I doubt that an as 39 would be out voyaging in the trades very often, and unless you are planning to sail with it everywhere, a marconi is still very handy. Its all about what you get for your money, a stayed marconi is the cheapest and best all round rig. With regard to sharpies beating the sloops downwind- so what? For safety give me a boat that can go to windward in a blow if necessary. Why not put a leeboard on a container and cap it off with a polytarp rig?
    whatever rocks your boat

  44. #44
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    These boats fill a purpose, cheap sailable floating accommodation. It is unfair to try and compare them with keeled yachts. They suit their design brief, but their limits should be realistically noted for prospective builders/sailors.
    whatever rocks your boat

  45. #45

    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    somehow I don't think these newer "more advanced sharpies" will gain the significant following of the earlier boats.....
    This hull shape is quite similar to the "Advanced Fisherman" boats they designed in the last decade. The purpose with these is their fuel efficiency, and the impossibility of making a living as a commercial fisherman in an era of $5/gallon fuel. I grant you that there are very few people capable or willing to build big recreational sailboats, even with "the earlier boats", only two AS-39's were built I believe. But, I do think that if the regulatory favoritism for gas guzzling fishing boats can be changed, that this advanced sharpie hull type (or similar) makes sense for fuel efficiency.

  46. #46

    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    a stayed marconi is the cheapest ... rig
    How could that be with all that wire, hardware, fittings and sail replacement?

  47. #47
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    How could that be with all that wire, hardware, fittings and sail replacement?
    Its not the dollar cost but the value, stayed rigs deliver more reliability and performance for the dollar and yes it does cost. An unstayed rig from carbon works beautifully up to a point where the loads are too great for the performance and cost. Look are Romily, wonderful unstayed rig but your not getting much change out of 5-10k for the spars?

    Windward performance is not necessary if you have a good motor, which on a 34 footer would cost at least 20k for a quality installation that you can trust. Believe me, the No1 requirement for a sailor is reliability.When you NEED your donk to work because your poly tarp gaff bags are not getting you away from getting smashed to bits on razor reef you wont care if you paid 50k for the motor!
    Last edited by Paul G.; 02-27-2011 at 02:39 PM.
    whatever rocks your boat

  48. #48
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    I would say that if you let the sharpie form above evolve, you would end up with a design similar to a large steel boat.
    whatever rocks your boat

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Its not the dollar cost but the value, stayed rigs deliver more reliability and performance for the dollar and yes it does cost. An unstayed rig from carbon works beautifully up to a point where the loads are too great for the performance and cost. Look are Romily, wonderful unstayed rig but your not getting much change out of 5-10k for the spars?

    Windward performance is not necessary if you have a good motor, which on a 34 footer would cost at least 20k for a quality installation that you can trust. Believe me, the No1 requirement for a sailor is reliability.When you NEED your donk to work because your poly tarp gaff bags are not getting you away from getting smashed to bits on razor reef you wont care if you paid 50k for the motor!
    I've never liked relying on a motor.

  50. #50
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    Default Re: Bolgers most recent, Advanced Sharpie AS-34

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I've never liked relying on a motor.
    Im with you on that one too, I was just illustrating that something for nothing is not possible.
    whatever rocks your boat

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