Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

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  • perldog007
    Banned
    • Sep 2009
    • 5014

    #31
    Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

    Originally posted by James McMullen
    I actually got one better than a Laser at the moment, Dave. Greg's got an old 505 he's a-fixin' up. I expect to have serious trapeze harness rash by the end of this summer.
    I have this visual of the 505 restored to glory, with a painted row of small jetskis' under the reg number on the snout with red hash marks running through them.....

    Comment

    • perldog007
      Banned
      • Sep 2009
      • 5014

      #32
      Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

      Originally posted by DGentry
      Ahh, sailing to windward. Here's a pretty picture. Is this the course of a square rigger? Not quite, but it kinda looks like it. Rather, it's said Frolic 2's course, from their EC report. A bit off putting, to me.
      Of course, there are lots of possible factors, but perhaps it would perform better with a centerboard? It would kind of ruin the accommodations . . . .


      James, if you really want to be rewarded for crafty upwind sailing, you should get yourself a Laser! You're a good size for racing one . . . and they are a joy to sail (downwind, on a screaming plane).
      See, when I saw that I was immediately thinking about rig tinkering, and how I would have done that differently... different strokes I guess.

      Comment

      • John Bell
        CS-17 "BANDALOOP"
        • Mar 2000
        • 3943

        #33
        Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

        Originally posted by perldog007
        See, when I saw that I was immediately thinking about rig tinkering, and how I would have done that differently... different strokes I guess.
        My experience is most people think their boats get to windward better than they actually do. We all look at our tacking angles and think we're doing well. I see lot of people say things such as "my little hooker is very close winded, tacking through 95 degrees...." This is probably perfectly true, but the reality is most of our little centerboard and leeboard boats make a LOT more leeway than we take into account. Gary's boat points just fine, but it does make a bit of leeway which costs a few degrees of windward progress. I've looked at GPS tracks from a number of other boats, from my Sunfish and Daysailer to Catalina 22s and 30+ foot Beneteaus. It's only very well sailed boat with with good sails and all the rigging tweaks that actually gets tacking angles of 90 degress or less through the water. None of my boats do. Old bagged out sails and very basic rig tuning have their impact as well.

        We've all watched the GPS tracks of IACC racing sloops on TV and we think our boats are only a little bit less weatherly. The reality is we aren't even close. We all ignore the effect of leeway on our windward progress.

        I challenge anyone to post their GPS tracks going to windward with their small, traditionally rigged boat. I'll bet there aren't many of us doing very much better than above.

        Edited to add: the track above is also in some very shallow water in Florida Bay. This is an area where keeping the boards down all the way all the time simply isn't possible. Mean water depth is 4-5 feet and vast areas down there have even less.
        Last edited by John Bell; 02-23-2011, 07:05 AM.

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        • James McMullen
          老板
          • Apr 2007
          • 12054

          #34
          Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

          I'll post some tracks if I can figure out a way to extract them from my ancient handheld GPS. But my boat really only sorta looks traditional. She's got CNC machined NACA section foils and modern computer lofted Dacron sails with plenty of sail shaping controls and twitchers built in so it's really apples and oranges. I find that these things make a huge difference, but only if you're the kind of obsessive personality enjoys spending all the time tweaking and tuning like me. But I do understand and agree with what you're saying to some extent, John. Especially in higher winds and rougher waves a small boat will makes more leeway. And of course in many conditions the optimal VMG comes from falling off slightly to improve speed through the water rather than pinching as high as possible.

          Comment

          • perldog007
            Banned
            • Sep 2009
            • 5014

            #35
            Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

            I still believe that the thing that made me a terror to the other kiddies in the action packed world of sunfish/sailfish racing was an embracing of the concept of leeway as opposed to denial or decrying. Them boats just plain old get blown sideways. I did notice the same on a hobie 16' and when I finally got to go sailing on a plastic 21' sloop I marveled at how much less leeway we made.

            Of course the skipper had downsized from a much bigger sloop ( Island Trader 50' I think ) and did not share my amazement.

            To me, 50 degrees off the wind is excellent for anything in the size range I'm looking at, 55 would not have me in tears. I have enjoyed many hours in an old catboat with some kind of makeshift sprit that wouldn't manage that, but getting there quickly was never a big thing with me.

            When I was pressured into racing at Scout Camp and other adult organized mind humps I think i only did well because my object was to have fun. Getting every last drop out of whatever is fun to me. Whether it was a 17' aluminum canoe with the crew holding their shirt up overhead, a sunfish, sailfish, raft with a poncho
            , whatever.

            One day I remember sailing home down lake Goshen by sitting in the stern of a 17 canoe and sailing with the nose. Pretty much a dead run or nothing but it was mad fun to me. Steering was only possible by shifting forward and getting the nose out of the wind and taking whatever momentum you had before the nose had to come up again and swing the whole enterprise dead downwind again.

            Guess this is a convoluted way of saying that having a race boat ain't even on the radar. That track across the Florida Bay would suit me just fine. If I'm ever lucky enough to be in something like the E.C. my idea of winning will be having the best hot buttered rum in the fleet.

            Comment

            • James McMullen
              老板
              • Apr 2007
              • 12054

              #36
              Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

              Aw perl, to me you'll always be a winner just for abandoning the lure of the metalflake bassboat with 450 hp worth of engines on the transom for the sake of building your own boat. I only keep trying to nudge you towards something like a Ness Yawl because I want you to have some of that sheer amount of extra joy on top you'll discover from having a boat like that. You deserve it, man!

              Comment

              • slidercat
                Senior Member
                • Jul 2008
                • 808

                #37
                Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

                I think it's true that most of us over-estimate how well our boats get to weather. I can say, however, that my 16 foot traditionally-rigged boat is much faster to windward than a Frolic 2. Last year's Florida 120, the first 2 days were heavy air, big chop, dead to windward, and in mostly narrow waterways. The first day I started about 4 hours after the fleet, but caught up to them before dark. The second day, I think I was among the fastest boats, and these included a couple pretty slippery ones. The only boat that I'm sure was faster, was a boat that was described to me as a "30 foot peapod"-- a great-looking boat with a powerful sail plan and a hard bimini. I passed Gary's Oaracle near the Gulf Breeze bridge, pointing higher and going much faster.

                Naturally, the main point of this post is to brag about my boat. However, the secondary purpose is to say that I really didn't have any idea that this would be the case until I took her out and sailed her against a bunch of other little boats, even though that didn't stop me from bragging about her. Events like the Florida 120 and the Texas 200 are good for finding out what boats can actually do on the water, as opposed to what they can do in their builder's imagination. The grand-daddy of these events, here in the States, is the EC. Gary's Oaracle has done pretty well in that event, and it's a fairly tough one-- 300+ miles in all conditions. Many of the boats suggested as alternatives to the Frolic 2 have not proven themselves in this race, or in similar events, so far as I know.

                Anyway, I agree with John Bell. Most of the folks who think their small boats are much better to windward than that Florida Bay track Oaracle posted are probably kidding themselves a little.
                Ray

                http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress

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                • perldog007
                  Banned
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 5014

                  #38
                  Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

                  Trust me, when I was making my pond box my mind was on grander schemes. But you gotta start somewhere and for a fellow who was known to be a certain hazard to the concept of craftsmanship with any sort of implement that exercise was a triumph. I really like Ian's designs and when my skill gets near "moderate" I'll have to give one a whack.

                  Ive read his clinker ply book at least three times and passages are beginning to make sense. My feeling is that after two more builds I'll be ready to try planking something up. Wouldn't it be cool if bamboo planking were to be had? But first I have to get the hang of plumb, square, and all that. Much as I love my home brewed fleet of pond and sea rowers, they are like their admiral a bit warped.

                  Then there's that dream that won't die of something like a lug yawl concept like the Billy Ruffian but using the lines and offsets for a 30' Swampscott instead of the St. Pierre..... but first I need to discover what a lug and mizzen are, how to operate them, and so on.

                  I think this might be the boat. Resale isn't really on my radar. I am also interested in learning more about Wellsford's SCAMP. As well the Tread Lightly is one I admire but don't know of too many that have been built. The "Gizmo" comes to mind but that Skipper's usage and my intended use are somewhat different.

                  All in all, given the problems I had with two simple builds so far, this one needs to be simple and that means giving up other things. But someday....

                  Comment

                  • Plumbtex
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2005
                    • 429

                    #39
                    Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

                    Have you considered John Welsford's Sweet Pea? It doesn't look like it would be any more difficult to build, has the small cabin and looks like it would fly. A sloop and yawl version are shown. I'd be tempted to make the cabin top look a little more salty though

                    Comment

                    • perldog007
                      Banned
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 5014

                      #40
                      Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

                      That's one I hadn't checked out, thanks for the suggestion.

                      Comment

                      • John Bell
                        CS-17 "BANDALOOP"
                        • Mar 2000
                        • 3943

                        #41
                        Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

                        Originally posted by slidercat
                        I think it's true that most of us over-estimate how well our boats get to weather. I can say, however, that my 16 foot traditionally-rigged boat is much faster to windward than a Frolic 2. Last year's Florida 120, the first 2 days were heavy air, big chop, dead to windward, and in mostly narrow waterways. The first day I started about 4 hours after the fleet, but caught up to them before dark. The second day, I think I was among the fastest boats, and these included a couple pretty slippery ones. The only boat that I'm sure was faster, was a boat that was described to me as a "30 foot peapod"-- a great-looking boat with a powerful sail plan and a hard bimini. I passed Gary's Oaracle near the Gulf Breeze bridge, pointing higher and going much faster.

                        Naturally, the main point of this post is to brag about my boat. However, the secondary purpose is to say that I really didn't have any idea that this would be the case until I took her out and sailed her against a bunch of other little boats, even though that didn't stop me from bragging about her. Events like the Florida 120 and the Texas 200 are good for finding out what boats can actually do on the water, as opposed to what they can do in their builder's imagination. The grand-daddy of these events, here in the States, is the EC. Gary's Oaracle has done pretty well in that event, and it's a fairly tough one-- 300+ miles in all conditions. Many of the boats suggested as alternatives to the Frolic 2 have not proven themselves in this race, or in similar events, so far as I know.

                        Anyway, I agree with John Bell. Most of the folks who think their small boats are much better to windward than that Florida Bay track Oaracle posted are probably kidding themselves a little.
                        Ray is pretty spot on about last year's FL120. In our defense of how long it took to get to the stop on Day 1, we did have the tide against us through the narrowest part of the course. Also, several us us stopped for 90+ minutes at Big Lagoon St. Park. Four hours later would have seen less foul current, I think. Not that I'm demeaning Ray's boat however. I was feeling pretty good about my boat going upwind after the first two days. On day three however, Ray wore my ass out on the 20 mile downwind. His traditional rig out-performed my modern marconi by a large margin. He could sail deeper and maybe little faster than me. Even though Ray left after me, he caught and passed me 5 or 6 miles from the finish. Sailing shorter distance really helps get you there faster.

                        I think Gary's Oaracle has the better of me downwind due to being longer, lighter, and able to sail very deep. I'm a few percent better upwind.

                        Just to be humble, I'm posting my own GPS track for last year's FL120. The tacking angles are abysmal, but it must be understood it was pretty windy and choppy which isn't a light centerboarder's best conditions. Also we were sailing against an ebb most of the way as well.

                        Comment

                        • DGentry
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 2222

                          #42
                          Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

                          Originally posted by slidercat
                          Anyway, I agree with John Bell. Most of the folks who think their small boats are much better to windward than that Florida Bay track Oaracle posted are probably kidding themselves a little.
                          That could well be true with most traditionally rigged small boats - something with which I haven't enough experience with to have an opinion. But I have sailed and raced a whole slew of "modern" rigged dinghies and keelboats, and have called many hundreds of windward laylines - and few, if any, of those (assuming no current) have resembled the tracks in that pic!

                          Makes one wonder how a square rigger, which could barely point that high in any case, got to weather at all!

                          As for alternatives, I certainly like the looks of that Welsford Sweet Pea. Looks wise, I also kind of prefer Michalak's Toon 19 to the Frolic 2, as well. About the same size, still multi chined, but with a longer water line. Perhaps the bow might not be as good downwind in waves.
                          Toon 19





                          Another, easier to build and lighter option might be Bolger's old Cynthia J catboat. Not a sharpie, but hard chine plywood, no ballast, leeboards, bigger cabin than the Frolic 2 or Toon 19, only one set of spars to build.

                          Boat plans and kits:
                          http://www.GentryCustomBoats.com

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                          • slidercat
                            Senior Member
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 808

                            #43
                            Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

                            John, you're right about the tide. It really helped me the first day. Still, I think Slider was a little faster to windward as well. On the second day, you left well before I did, and that afternoon on Santa Rosa Sound, I was very slowly reeling you in. In fact, trying to catch you kept me occupied all afternoon, and my mind off the broken bolt in one of my beams. I think if I'd had a couple more miles, I'd have got you. I did catch the Windrider 17, which surprised me a lot. We blew away the Precision 18, also a surprise. But Merlin was the class of the fleet, I think. (And also the biggest boat, I believe.)

                            I think the sprit-sloop rig has some major advantages for small fast boats that are not yet recognized widely. I caught all kinds of hell for putting that rig on a little cat, but despite her very modest sail area, Slider goes pretty well.
                            Ray

                            http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress

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                            • John Bell
                              CS-17 "BANDALOOP"
                              • Mar 2000
                              • 3943

                              #44
                              Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

                              I caught the first Windrider, but judging from how much beer those guys drank it wasnt too surprising! I think I passed the other one as well. If you want to talk about leeway, those boats have it in spades.

                              I don't know for sure if you are faster upwind, but I should give you a little more data to consider. If you look at my track, you can see a couple of places where I reached back and forth a bit for a bit of a break and because I was worried about Scott in the little black coffin scow and waited until I heard he'd been picked up by Charlie and Isabel over the VHF. The Hobie AI tandem and I kept pace together pretty well, but he was pedaling full time. IIRC Merlin (my favorite boat of the week, a 23' 1.5x scale-up of Bolger's Sweet Pea) caught me mostly because I gave up a lot of ground on those breaks, but he did pull away when he got ahead. He clearly made less leeway than me. I felt like I wasn't giving that much on speed, but his extra 5 degrees made good to windward just broke my heart and spirit.

                              All of this is not to say I think your boat is slow, because it's clearly not. I really don't know if we're close to windward or not. Hopefully we'll get chance to sail in company again so we can try it head to head. Slider is clearly the superior cruising boat and I'd trade with you in a minute. I spent many minutes drooling over the two Sliders in attendance. I'd trade out my boat in favor of Slider in a minute for this year's Everglades Challenge. I honestly think it would be less challenging and more comfortable in Slider compared to my grotty 30 year old DSII "ALOBAR".

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                              • slidercat
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2008
                                • 808

                                #45
                                Re: Talk me out of Michalak's Frolic2

                                Yeah, I was knocked out by Merlin too. I wish I'd got a chance to talk to her owner. Someone told me she was a 30 footer, and I took their word for it, as she looked pretty big to me. I have a mental image of her launching out of the first night's anchorage, going to windward like a train. I heard the owner built her in 8 months, which seems pretty amazing.

                                I think you're right about the Windriders and their foils. They have a shallow molded in keel, and are obviously not at their best to windward, in spite of their rotating masts and fully-battened mains. As I was coming pretty close to Navarre, the first Windrider was way up to windward along the island, where I assume they went to escape the chop. As you know, that last couple of miles before Navarre turned into a reach, and I thought for sure they'd catch me then, but if anything I increased my lead.

                                Don't be knocking Alobar; she was the second fastest monohull in the event, as far as I could tell, faster than a number of larger boats. That's a slick little boat, and you're clearly a very good sailor. I think the chop that day suited Slider a little better than a light shallow-bodied boat like Alobar. Slider tends to cut through big chop, and when I drew her, I was very concerned about pitching, one of the principle banes of fine-hulled craft. Her hulls were designed to damp out pitching, and along with her low rig, she is very resistant to it.

                                I'm betting you'll do fine in the EC. Are you going to the Florida 120 this year?
                                Ray

                                http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress

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