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Thread: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

  1. #1
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    Default Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    Hi,

    I'll be installing windows(laminated glass) soon in my boat and wonder about the pros and cons of going with either a butyl or a urethane based compound like Sika flex & Co.

    The butyl product I'm considering is here;

    http://www.dominionsureseal.com/prod...id=18&catid=25


    The glass will be seated into a wooden frame with a small batten run around the inside perimeter to hold the glass in place.

    Any experienced window installers and/or chemists out there care to offer their thoughts on the wisdom(or lack there of) toward using a butyl rubber compound to bed and seal the windows in place?


    Cheers!


    Peter
    Do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,now!
    J.Lennon

    This boat was built with ten thumbs.No fingers were harmed in anyway.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt what has worked long term for a good and watertight seal against laminated and tempered glass in boat cabins using a chemical etching compound along the edges that will be against the caulk that bonds against window mouldings using Sikaflex 240. I taped the area and papered the inside glass to prevent any spots on the open sections.

    Ask your local quality glass shop if they have any materials for etching. While its not like sandblasting, it does leave a rough area on the smoothe glass and seems to help to achieve a long term bond. One thing that I will also suggest is to seal the wood with some oil base primer if you are applying paint to it. I use kiltz even though I think the folks at Sikflex suggests another named primer but am suffering from old folks disease right now. After fully cured the sikaflex holds paint after a well primed surface across the caulk and moulding.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    Butyl stays soft and a bit sticky indefinitely,but it won't squish out like softer stuff,so you need to allow space for it.

    I like it.

    x2 on priming/painting/pre-sealing.Try to colour match it to the caulking or use black.
    Neatness counts because you will be able to see it through the glass from the other side.
    R
    "Now Ron,don't you do anything stupid!" - Grandma B.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    Quote Originally Posted by erster View Post
    I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt what has worked long term for a good and watertight seal against laminated and tempered glass in boat cabins using a chemical etching compound along the edges that will be against the caulk that bonds against window mouldings using Sikaflex 240. I taped the area and papered the inside glass to prevent any spots on the open sections.

    Ask your local quality glass shop if they have any materials for etching. While its not like sandblasting, it does leave a rough area on the smoothe glass and seems to help to achieve a long term bond. One thing that I will also suggest is to seal the wood with some oil base primer if you are applying paint to it. I use kiltz even though I think the folks at Sikflex suggests another named primer but am suffering from old folks disease right now. After fully cured the sikaflex holds paint after a well primed surface across the caulk and moulding.

    Thanks Mike for the etching recommendation.It never occured to me the perfectly smooth glass would present challenges for the compound to get a grip on.Makes perfect sense to me, sanding fool that I am, to give the glass some tooth.

    I'll give the company a call tomorrow to see what they have in way of chemical etchs. By the way, the faying surfaces of the window frames were sealed with a couple of coats of epoxy sealer then sanded rough with some 80 paper.The interior moldings,3/8" X 1" mahogany, which will hold the window in place(along with the compound) have already been pre-coated with 3 coats of Cetol Marine, with the "varnish" to come after the installation. I do not intend on painting the bedding compound and expect to see only a fine black line where the stuff is. Also, I went looking for Sika 240 you mention and see it has apparently been replaced by Sika 291 LOT. The same gunk I used to do my cabin soles for the fake laid deck effect.

    Would you or anyone else reading this, know whether there is a significant difference between a polyurethane product like Sika and a butyl product,performance wise, for this particular application?


    Thanks again for your reply Mike and hope it is not too cold down your way.....lucky devil!



    Cheers!


    Peter
    Do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,now!
    J.Lennon

    This boat was built with ten thumbs.No fingers were harmed in anyway.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Williamson View Post
    Butyl stays soft and a bit sticky indefinitely,but it won't squish out like softer stuff,so you need to allow space for it.

    I like it.

    x2 on priming/painting/pre-sealing.Try to colour match it to the caulking or use black.
    Neatness counts because you will be able to see it through the glass from the other side.
    R
    Hi Ron,


    Thanks for your thoughts on this. Not clear on what you mean by "try to colour match it to the caulking...." Isn't the butyl already "the" caulking? I hear you on the neatness front.Looks like I have some fussy work awaiting once I get back to the boat.

    Spring is coming...one day!!



    Cheers!


    Peter
    Do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,now!
    J.Lennon

    This boat was built with ten thumbs.No fingers were harmed in anyway.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    How do I put this tactfully yet succinctly?

    ummm.......do not use a butyl rubber sealant for your windows.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    C'est easy for toi to say John B mais would vous care to expound on that a wee bit...any horror stories,bloopers,goobers or just plain reason pour quoi moi should not use le butyl? I'm on le edge of my seat with ennui and inquietude. I very much appreciate too votre precision direct.Honest!



    Cheers!


    Peter
    Do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,now!
    J.Lennon

    This boat was built with ten thumbs.No fingers were harmed in anyway.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    Peter,

    I'm no expert when it comes to these compounds. I have an industrial supplier whose recommendations I follow (so far to good effect). However... you did say something that caused me a bit of trepidation. Or, maybe two.

    First - the smaller matter - you say you've sanded the epoxy on the faying surfaces of the frames with #80? Here, I believe, you'd be best served by have a pristine (unsanded) surface - be it epoxy, varnish, paint, or what have you.

    Second - you say you've got the trim (this is usually called 'glass stop') coated with Sikkens Cetol Marine? And that you will varnish more after the glass is installed. By 'varnish', I'm hoping you mean the gloss product that is called Sikkens Cetol Marine Gloss. It is my understanding that none of the typical spar varnishes are compatible with Cetol substrate.

    As always - my best to your sanding dervish.

    Fair Winds!
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    Regarding the "it" from above,I was talking about the pre-sealer colour,not the bedding material.
    Since you've already used epoxy and Cetol and are planning black caulk of some kind,a little wiggly bead of the black goop will be very visible around the edges when you look through the glass.You need to cover the whole space for it to look neat.


    I must add that I've used lots of butyl for residential construction,from a tube and from a flat coil,but never on a boat window.
    I'm sur le edge de mon chaise, aussi.
    R
    "Now Ron,don't you do anything stupid!" - Grandma B.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    Just my opinion there Peter. I've used the two locally available butyl sealants for 25 years and like it as a bedding compound , but windows ports? nup, no way no how. Leaky windows or decks just makes life miserable and its intolerable.

    You need to weight a professional opinion like Mikes , that sort of insight is invaluable.
    I'd be reseaching the best of the sika types( which is what you're doing , and whatever brand you favour) , giving a great deal of thought to Mikes idea and experience, and I'd be thinking about how to gunk that stuff in with plenty of material/ bedding between the glass and rebate( ie spacers or gimmick to hold the glass off ). When I say plenty, I mean recommended.. might be 2 or 3 mm.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    Let me add several sidebar notes. Normally I also fabricate mouldings that mirror the rabbit. I also make sure that the windows are a shave undersized. Of course I make luan templetes for the windows as I have never seen two the same. Mark your templates up and down and in and out if we are talking about rectangle ones too. Also when I begin bedding of the windows, I take brass brads along the bottom and sides in a few conveniently placed positions when I bed the window panes in the frame against the rabbit allowing the window frame to rest on them while the bedding compound dries and cures. Also make some small blocks of plastic or starboard if you have enough room in the rabbit and predrill and fasten them against the window panes until the caulk dries. .

    This allows the window to have a small bead all the way around the glass and not hitting hardwood and stresses the glass while underway and hit some rough weather. This is just my method that I have found that worked for me. Of course I remove them after the caulk cures.

    I am tired of winter Peter, but still getting out occasionally. But you would not like some of the shots though.
    Last edited by erster; 02-14-2011 at 06:41 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Butyl compound VS urethane compound for window install

    I would use white silicone bathroom sealant. It sticks like the proverbial to a blanket, however should you choose to over egg the pudding, then use http://www.ct1ltd.com/ct1-sealant-ct1-adhesive.html

    Proper job, as they say in Cornwall. I don't live there, of course.

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