Some Goat Island Skiff questions

[Dustin Laurence]

I'm leaning toward a GIS as about the most sailboat you can reasonably put more than two people in (eliminating really simple things like the Teal) and still cartop and generally carry and manhandle around where there isn't a boat ramp (eliminating most sailboats as too heavy, such as the 250lb plastic sailing dinghy I already have). I was once thinking of just building a Featherwind/Nutmeg, but the GIS doesn't look much harder or much more weight, and I don't find a lot of evidence of the kind of knowledgeable and enthusiastic community behind it that the GIS has. I also don't see much specific discussion of the Featherwind's performance, while there doesn't seem to be any doubt whatsoever about that of the GIS. I must confess I'm not a fan of plumb bows and I like more sheer (um, sorry Michael, the generic "boat" in my head actually looks like a Friendship sloop, which has kind of the anti-GIS profile :-) ), but it appears the GIS is just unbeatable in terms of simplicity, capability, development, and support. I've been reading the many GIS threads here, and I still have a couple of questions someone will surely have answers for, since the GIS appears to be the board's favorite plywood box boat:

Are the spars short enough to stow inside the boat? The rig is generous enough that it looks dicey in pictures, and since the boat is light and ought to be launchable anywhere I might just re-purpose it to a fishing boat on occasion. In such a case I might need to do some rowing with the rig struck.

I'm slightly unhappy with the daggerboard, just because I'd like a board that can kick up if it hits something. I can live with it (I do in my plastic sailboat already), and probably won't mind it in practice, but I was curious if anyone had done a centerboard modification, and if so how inconvenient the bigger trunk is.

I'm also somewhat interested in the yawl version at least as an option for occasional amusement, so I'd like to know how it sails compared to the standard cat rig. I'm going to guess a bit less weatherly, but otherwise similar?

Also on the yawl, the downloadable plans are a bit sparse for someone who hasn't even seen the plans yet, but it looks like the mizzen setup could be added at any time after the boat is built, but if I understand it the main needs a step further forward that would probably be best added when built. Is that true?

[orbb]

In addition to whatever responses you get here, there is a Michael Storer forum, which may be another source of information:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/

[MiddleAgesMan]

It's a pretty good rowboat but a better sailer. While it's light enough for car-topping it's a BIG bulky boat that would dwarf most modern automobiles. Most of us trailer ours.

The mast won't quite fit inside the hull. It is just an inch or two too long. You could give up that excess length if it's really important or you could enlarge the tiller slot in the transom to allow the tip of the mast to extend out there. The complete sail laced to the yard and boom will fit inside just fine, though.

Your understanding of the yawl mods seems correct. Put in the forward step while building so you won't have to butcher it later.

I don't think MIK would ever bless the conversion to a kick-up centerboard. He's very big on performance and simplicity and you get both with the dagger board.

[David G]

Dustin,

I've been a cheerleader for the GIS ever since I built the first one in the Americas. I think you have correctly identified its advantages. I liked it so much that I've become a 'recommended builder' for Mik's boats. And that has turned into a friendship with the brilliant wallaby. He is, really, an obsessed genius... and a grand human being. Remarkably accessible to builders, as well as prolific in his writing. It's quite easy to find answers to any building or usage questions you might have.

We cartopped ours on a Mazda MPV for the first couple of seasons. Not something I'd recommend. It's really a two-person job to load and unload that way. I did put it back up top by myself once (on a steep, slippery, ramp). Not a chore I'd gladly do again. A trailer allows you to go sailing without arranging a crew. For me, that's big.

The spars are NOT short enough to store completely inside the boat. That said, I've rowed a good bit, and quite comfortably, with one end of the bundle of sticks/sail nestled into the stem and the other end of the mast sticking out over the transom. As you can see from the foto below, we have an offset outboard notch, and the stick rides nicely in there. Even without the notch, I'm sure it would just lie in the corner. Rowing is ever so slightly encumbered in this configuration.



I have fished in just the way you describe, and it has worked fine. Mostly, though, I find that I use the sail little on such expeditions, and now usually leave the sail at home in favor of the outboard. Fishing with two, the boat feels stable enough to stand and cast with little thought or care. Solo, it's a little bit more tiddly, but not obnoxiously so. Oh, also, I sometimes just loose the halyard, bundle the two sticks and sail together, and leave the mast standing. This adds a bit to the tiddly feeling when standing and casting. It also eliminates unstepping and restepping the mast while afloat. Because the hull is so narrow at the waterline up front - this is a touchy operation in any but the calmest conditions. Not impossible, but requires care.

I had the same concerns about the daggerboard, but in practice have had nothing to complain about. Ours is fabricated mostly with western red cedar staves. It has a meranti stave at the nose and at the tail. These are the areas that take the abuse or are fragile. The whole thing was then fiberglassed with epoxy resin and painted with 2-part polyurethane. I've drug the foil on concrete, logs, and barnacle-encrusted rocks. So far the worst damage I've done is dropping it while transporting. Dinged the back (fragile) edge.

I haven't seen the yawl version in person, so will leave those questions for others. I will say, though, that I like the idea, and probably would have gone that route if it was available when we built.

[cprinos]

callsign222 has a great blog on this boat... gisamateur.blogspot.com, he was gracious enough to take me for a sail late last year.

To answer some a couple of your questions based on the boat I saw:

- it is light for it's size, but there's a lot of volume in that hull. I had read numerous sites & reports of the GIS on the web, but I was surprised how big it was in person. I can't see car-topping it realistically.
- the mast did not fully fit within the boat, but it did not extend past the bow very much at all when stowed.

[Dustin Laurence]

It's a pretty good rowboat but a better sailer.

I expect that. But I'm a sailor, not a paddler, and I'm more interested in its sailing qualities. As long as it rows acceptably for emergency power, I'm happy enough.

Besides, I don't think I'm a good enough oarsman to appreciate a good rowboat anyway--I didn't like the famous Bolger dory all that much, and apparently that makes me a despicable heretic (in my defense, it was in windy conditions where the ends made pretty effective sails, and it was hard to keep it pointing in any particular direction). So I probably won't even notice that it isn't a great rowboat.

While it's light enough for car-topping it's a BIG bulky boat that would dwarf most modern automobiles. Most of us trailer ours.

It's big and the wind resistance concerns me, and I may have to check the California regulations on how far I can push it, but it won't dominate a 4Runner quite as much as it would a little car. In any event, I didn't mention that when we were younger (and didn't have kids) we occasionally managed to cartop the 250lb dinghy hull I mentioned on a full-sized van. =8-O Anything is better than that.

The 4Runner would pull a boat trailer very well, but I don't have a place to park one. I have a small trailer that folds in half and barely fits against the garage wall, but it's a 4x8 flatbed. I might well make a cradle, but I'd have to find out just what is legal in terms of overhang and I'd have to have some kind of tongue extension. And I'd have to pick the boat up instead of backing the trailer in the water. So any way you look at it, the lightness is an advantage.

The mast won't quite fit inside the hull. It is just an inch or two too long. You could give up that excess length if it's really important or you could enlarge the tiller slot in the transom to allow the tip of the mast to extend out there. The complete sail laced to the yard and boom will fit inside just fine, though.

I was afraid of that. I usually think that lug spars will fit inside the hull, but most boats aren't so exhuberantly canvassed. :-) It would hurt to compromise her rig.

Letting spars stick out over the bow may work too, so I may just be borrowing trouble that isn't really a problem here.

Your understanding of the yawl mods seems correct. Put in the forward step while building so you won't have to butcher it later.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I might only put in the parts that I have to while building, and add the rest when I feel like it (and have the money for more rigging).

I don't really *need* the yawl right now, but (1) it's a seamanlike rig I think would teach my boys (and me, honestly) a lot about the kind of sail balance I (partly) learned on big traditional boats, (2) I have a suspicion that the maneuverability would be very nice while fishing, and (3) I may someday build an Oughtred yawl, so why not get familiar with the rig?

I don't think MIK would ever bless the conversion to a kick-up centerboard. He's very big on performance and simplicity and you get both with the dagger board.

I'm sure you're right, but on the other hand I don't think he's going to come help me fix the daggerboard trunk if I get a little too daring and smash it up good. :-) Besides, he'd have to get over seeing what my wood butchery would do to his design. After that experience, he'd be too numb with despair to care about such small stuff. :-) The introduction to Oughtred's design book is of great comfort to me. :-)

I'm not sure how much I *really* care about the daggerboard thing, but with the fiberglass dinghy I've poked my nose into places where it was a worry (as well as places where the leg o' mutton rig was too tall--apparently I'm foolish that way). I told myself once that my next boat would have a centerboard so I would worry less, but if I break that promise I only have to answer to me. :-)

Dustin

[Dustin Laurence]

It's quite easy to find answers to any building or usage questions you might have.

Including the marriage counseling about where in the world I'm going to build and store it? :-)

Fortunately, my wife is also a sailor (mostly big-boat though) and she also thinks the plastic dinghy is too heavy and has the wrong rig for a quick trip, so she sees the point of a different dinghy.

We cartopped ours on a Mazda MPV for the first couple of seasons. Not something I'd recommend. It's really a two-person job to load and unload that way.

Still has to be better than 250lbs of frozen snot way up on a huge fan. :-)

I guess I need to read the California highway regs about overlap and towing to see if I can avoid it.

I have fished in just the way you describe, and it has worked fine. Mostly, though, I find that I use the sail little on such expeditions, and now usually leave the sail at home in favor of the outboard.

That's sensible, but I'm not sensible enough to plan to buy an outboard. I'm kind of curious to find out whether I can troll under sail. :-)

You know, I suppose if I really end up caring I could have a second, shorter mast that is only tall enough to set the sail with a reef tied in, and use that when I insist on being able to get the spars in the boat. But first I suppose I should just try it and see whether i care that much--maybe I won't, either by leaving the mast stepped as you suggest or just leaving the sticks poking over the side.

Because the hull is so narrow at the waterline up front - this is a touchy operation in any but the calmest conditions. Not impossible, but requires care.

Very good to know.

I had the same concerns about the daggerboard, but in practice have had nothing to complain about. Ours is fabricated mostly with western red cedar staves. It has a meranti stave at the nose and at the tail. These are the areas that take the abuse or are fragile.

I had thought of of a brass or aluminum strip around the edge, though when push comes to shove I'm sure I'd chicken out so as not to screw up the foil shape. I'm more worried about hull damage, though I suppose I'd have to be sailing pretty enthusiastically to manage that. I've never actually smashed a board (see, worry helps!), so I don't know just how hard I'd have to hit to cause that much trouble.

Dustin

[MiddleAgesMan]

When I lived on Andros Island I owned a 20 catamaran with a 12 foot beam. At the time the design held the speed record for that size cat--20-25 knots IIRC. It had twin dagger boards that gave me pause just as you have expressed about the GIS's board. I used to envision ripping a 2 foot slot in the underside of the hulls sailing the shallow and hard-bottomed waters near shore. The speeds of the Goat will be 25% of what kept me worried. What others report as the worst case scenario in the Goat is a sudden stop and a 1/2 inch ding in the back of the case. IOW, the potential damage is not great enough to change to a pivoting centerboard, IMO.

[David G]

Dustin,

If you regularly cartop a 250# boat... you're a better man than I (or crazy enough not to get crossways with), and so I'll say no more. The ability to go out solo still ranks high for me, though.

Yes, one can troll under sail. I only tried it once. We caught some fish. More work than it was worth, but fun to do just so you could say you tried it. I pretty much gave up fishing, and just handled the sail, while my friend fished. I've also rowed while someone wet a line. That works too. I'm thinking this Spring, I'm gonna try anchoring in the Willamette and fishing for shad out of this boat. In the past, we've used a bigger boat for that. If it works ok, I might even work my way up to some salmon fishing.

I don't sail anywhere where I'm likely to collide at speed with a ledge or reef. It's not like I'm in New England or somesuch. Of course, neither are you. The one time I really bashed something hard, it scared the bejeebers outa me. Stopped the boat in it's tracks for a moment. I figured we were going down. I Imagined a daggerboard case cutting loose entirely. I don't know what we hit. It was in the Columbia river. Mighta been a sinker - a waterlogged tree drifting downstream below the surface. When I looked, though, the case was as tight as could be. I guess building it into the center thwart was a good idea. Didn't even scrape paint off the foil. That 2-part is tough stuff, but if we'd hit metal or rock, I bet it would have taken some paint off.

[Thorne]

The main drawbacks that I see are in the requirements to be carried, cartopped, and presumably hoisted up into the rafters since there is no room for a trailer. Those are canoe/kayak lifestyle requirements.

A SOF sailboat would meet these specs, but I can't imagine a GIS being carried by one Person. Dragged or rolled on a trolley, but not carried. And as for hoisting one up and down each time, that sounds like a lot of work and a risk to both life and boat.

[Dustin Laurence]

I used to envision ripping a 2 foot slot in the underside of the hulls sailing the shallow and hard-bottomed waters near shore.

I was envisioning wrenching the trunk from the hull, but that would end up with roughly the same result.

What others report as the worst case scenario in the Goat is a sudden stop and a 1/2 inch ding in the back of the case. IOW, the potential damage is not great enough to change to a pivoting centerboard, IMO.

Yeah, it would be much less worrisome if you could be sure of getting her home on her own bottom. Perhaps you're right that I should not worry about it.

When the boys are older I can always order them to the bow to watch for rocks and tell them "it's just like in Swallows and Amazons." :-)

Dustin

[Dustin Laurence]

Dustin,

If you regularly cartop a 250# boat... you're a better man than I (or crazy enough not to get crossways with), and so I'll say no more.

While I relish my incipient reputation on the board as No One To Be Messed With, it wasn't regular, we just did it a few times as the only way we could go sailing, and it was two of us lifting. Then we found dinghy racks we could keep it on at Alamitos Bay (an extremely fine place to sail a dinghy), but it was head-high and fifty feet from the water. It wasn't so bad starting out when we were fresh and eager to go, but unrigging, dragging it across the sand, and then bucking it up there at the end of the day was a real drag. Then we lost our rack (actually, they just refurbished the place, and invited us back when the new racks were built, but they had a 180# weight limit....), and so I ended up hoisting it in the garage. Then we had kids and for scheduling reasons Teresa quit taking the vanpool that gave us access to a full-sized van on the weekends, so we really didn't have a way to move it and it has sat dry and lonely for many years while we got our sailing done on big boats. It is also wants TLC, so the use barrier was just too high.

I'm actually going to get it in shape again too, but we had to admit that it is the wrong hull and the wrong rig for a lot of lake sailing and we actually belong to a sailing club in Marina del Rey with much bigger boats for our ocean sailing. So we started talking again about lighter, faster to rig boats.

As I said, I thought about a Featherwind, but I never hear of that design being well-loved by more experienced sailors. (I'd actually like to know what knowledgeable people think of them just for my own information, but if they had as much ability and development as the GIS I'd absolutely have found much more information on the web.)

Even a small boat is too much work and expense to not try to build one you want for a long time. If I ever find the space to keep it and a trailer to move it on I may someday try to build an Oughtred double-ender, but even with one of those I think I still might like to have a light, easily manhandled boat anyway.

Plus, I've never raced, but I get so tired of living in a wasteland of sailors who think that any traditional rig or wooden hull is worthless that I'm somewhat motivated to have something that performs well enough just to shut up the likely comments. :-)

The ability to go out solo still ranks high for me, though.

I guess it isn't as big a deal for me as far as the main purpose of the thing goes, because I'd be sailing with the family. But for fishing that would be nice. I guess I might value that more as time goes on.

Yes, one can troll under sail. I only tried it once.

I'm really not much of a fisherman, but I'm trying to do more of it because boys ought to grow up fishing. But a lot of the fishing around here is either ocean fishing or freshwater fishing that needs a boat. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone freshwater fishing under sail, but I don't see why it can't be done (well, except for the problem of hooking your rig while casting). Either I'm missing something, or fishermen are too serious about their fishing to want to be distracted by sailing.

When I looked, though, the case was as tight as could be. I guess building it into the center thwart was a good idea.

That's very reassuring. Yeah, I guess my mental picture is of an unsupported trunk even though, come to think of it, I should know better because I've seen pictures. I guess because that's how it is on my molded GRP boat, and because I first thought of this when I thought of trying to retrofit a centerboard in a Featherwind (which would make it as hard to build as a GIS anyway). (Say, do I lose social points for having such a boat? It was free, honest. :-) ) A thwart would make it comfortingly stronger.

Didn't even scrape paint off the foil. That 2-part is tough stuff, but if we'd hit metal or rock, I bet it would have taken some paint off.

I was going to go the Dave Carnell way and paint with latex house paint. But then, of the "real" boatbuilding books I own the one I like reading most is Rabl's, whose intended audience is people whose "yachting clothes are the dungarees you wore in the engine room of Big Mo the day she steamed into Tokyo Bay." :-) This boat may have to live outside and I suspect paint will protect it better than anything else anyway.

Dustin

[Dustin Laurence]

The main drawbacks that I see are in the requirements to be carried, cartopped, and presumably hoisted up into the rafters since there is no room for a trailer. Those are canoe/kayak lifestyle requirements.

Fair enough. However, I don't think I've ever cared strongly about a boat that didn't sail, and in any event the most important requirement is the carrying capacity one. The GIS is just big enough, maybe. The rest I compromise with as best I can.

As for the rafters, that's one possibility, if I move the frozen snot boat outside (but it's so much heavier that I'd rather not have it there). Another is to see if I can get a dinghy rack again since a GIS would actually be light enough, but then it wouldn't be convenient for lake sailing. And those racks are outside so I might as well store it outside at my house, either behind the garage if there is enough space there or in the side yard next to the garage (which might require it be nose-up with chafing gear between it and the garage, which I don't like). I'm still trying to figure out that part, obviously.

So you can see I'm still mulling over this problem. How much should I expect to regret keeping it outside, if I'm not stupid enough to let it fill up with freshwater?

A SOF sailboat would meet these specs, but I can't imagine a GIS being carried by one Person. Dragged or rolled on a trolley, but not carried. And as for hoisting one up and down each time, that sounds like a lot of work and a risk to both life and boat.

No, not carried by one person, unless my weightlifting program starts producing dramatic results. It'll have to be two.

Dustin

[Dan St Gean]

Sell the fiberglass beast and get going on the GIS. More room to store stuff, and no more wrestling with the overweight dingy.

Dan

[callsign222]

The daggerboard trunk is plenty strong. The daggerboard trailing edge gets messed up, but no problems with the trunk. I myself have hit several submerged rock piles at speed-- two people up on the rail with full sail. Multiple groundings too. The centerboard conversion idea would add structure, weight, eat up room in the spacious salon, and add unnecessary complication to a very simple boat.

I've trawled under sail, lots of room for two and fishing gear.

There is a "Son of Goat" that is in development that will be in the 12' range. Lighter and easier to manhandle, if cartopping is going to be a priority for you. Stay tuned.

[peterchech]

I have heard of daggerboards that can be designed to "kick up" when they hit something hard. The case has to be a bit longer, and the board has to have an angle of attack. The case could be lengthened forward, which may keep the CLR in the same spot as designed while still allowing use of the angled daggerboard, but calculations are needed. Paper tiger catamarans mostly use such a dagger board.

I'm leaning toward a GIS as about the most sailboat you can reasonably put more than two people in (eliminating really simple things like the Teal) and still cartop and generally carry and manhandle around where there isn't a boat ramp (eliminating most sailboats as too heavy, such as the 250lb plastic sailing dinghy I already have).

I had those same exact requirements. Urban living means no trailer for me. A S&G outrigger canoe may be the answer. They are really fast, easy to build (though more complicated than a GIS), and can be cartopped solo without killing yourself. Capacity can be built in depending on how big you build it, but 3 or more is probably very reasonable. Check out the outrigger thread some time.

[Dustin Laurence]

Sell the fiberglass beast and get going on the GIS. More room to store stuff, and no more wrestling with the overweight dingy.
Dan

I'm not sure it's worth anything. It's something no one I've met has ever heard of, a Chrysler sailing dinghy. I got it free. The previous owner had inherited a pontoon party boat and had only one slip on his association's private lake, and preferred the party boat over the sailboat. He asked $100 but none of the inquirers had a way to transport it, so he said I could have it if I got it out of there. I don't think I'd have had the courage to try cartopping it otherwise, but *free boat* was a powerful motivator. So I made a makeshift rooftop carrier in his parking lot and just kind of winged it from there.

I don't think I could part with it because of a couple of fun memories. The first time we launched it on saltwater as green sailors was in San Pedro, at a place we didn't realize was called "hurricane gulch" for an excellent reason. Once we innocently sailed out from under the lee of the headland with safe harbor dead to windward and the main shipping channel to leeward it became one of those things you only enjoy when you can tell about later. :-)

But it isn't cartoppable and it has the usual plastic-boat rig that takes 45 minutes to rig up, so it doesn't fit the use case. The first thing my wife said was she wanted something easier to rig.

Dustin

[callsign222]

The first thing my wife said was she wanted something easier to rig.

Dustin

With a semi competent second person I can be on the water sailing in 15 minutes. My record de-rigging from out of the water to secured and moving down the road is 12 minutes. A little longer for both rigging and de-rigging if solo, but not by much, and I like to fiddle and make sure everything's in its place.

Not a record, but not slow either. Also, with a trailer.

[Dustin Laurence]

I have heard of daggerboards that can be designed to "kick up" when they hit something hard. The case has to be a bit longer, and the board has to have an angle of attack. The case could be lengthened forward, which may keep the CLR in the same spot as designed while still allowing use of the angled daggerboard, but calculations are needed. Paper tiger catamarans mostly use such a dagger board.

I'm not sure I understand. How is that different from a pivoting centerboard?

Currently I'm drinking the kool-aid that the scantlings are sufficient that the hull will survive a strike and I shouldn't worry so much about it. :-)

I had those same exact requirements. Urban living means no trailer for me. A S&G outrigger canoe may be the answer. They are really fast, easy to build (though more complicated than a GIS), and can be cartopped solo without killing yourself. Capacity can be built in depending on how big you build it, but 3 or more is probably very reasonable. Check out the outrigger thread some time.

That's a great outside-the-box idea. It won't work for this requirement because I just can't see it being as dry and easy to keep small children inside and safe as a monohull (sounds like it would be something like a beach cat), and I'm making the wife happy too. *However*, part of the purpose of me building things with traditional rigs is to become a broader, better sailor than if all I were doing is sailing plastic sloops. The shunting proa is just about the most different from a plastic sloop of all solutions that have a track record of being viable, so I actually would like to someday have a proa. Not for family sailing, just to make me a better sailor. Or just satisfy my curiosity. Plus, it would be hilarious to see the looks I'd get while shunting out the Marina del Rey channel early on a Saturday afternoon. A gaff cutter is a curiosity--a proa is from outer space.

Perhaps when my boys are big enough to help build something and enjoy sailing fast. It's nice to have boys. :-)

Dustin

[Dustin Laurence]

Didn't even scrape paint off the foil. That 2-part is tough stuff, but if we'd hit metal or rock, I bet it would have taken some paint off.

This has been in the back of my head, and I guess I should learn more about that paint. Years ago when I first noticed the symptoms of boatbuilder's disease, I read an article by Dave Carnell that convinced me that latex house paint was more bang for the buck than special boatbuilding paint. So I'd always had in mind that if I wasn't trying to show off my woodworking skills, I'd just use latex. However, tougher is better. How much more does this two-part stuff cost?

[Bill Mercer]

Look in WB issue 164 for descriptions of two types of pivoting daggerboard. One is in sort of a cassette and can pivot back ninety degrees on impact.

[David G]

This has been in the back of my head, and I guess I should learn more about that paint. Years ago when I first noticed the symptoms of boatbuilder's disease, I read an article by Dave Carnell that convinced me that latex house paint was more bang for the buck than special boatbuilding paint. So I'd always had in mind that if I wasn't trying to show off my woodworking skills, I'd just use latex. However, tougher is better. How much more does this two-part stuff cost?

Mik recommends the 2-part for the whole boat, and varnish for the interior. I used oil-based porch & deck paint from a good local supplier. It hold up fairly well. But he did prevail upon us to at least use the 2-part on the foils. I'm glad he did. I've since had experience with 2-part for hulls, and it's pretty impressive. And expensive. My porch paint is $30/gallon. The 2-part Epifanes that's on the foils is more like $40/quart. I've heard several people over the years testify to the efficacy of the latex house paint for hulls. No personal experience, but a certain amount of skepticism.

[callsign222]

I used Interlux Brightsides and was impressed at its hardness, its gloss, and most importantly, it's ease of use/application for a real nice mirror finish. A little cheaper than the 2 part stuff, more expensive than the Latex. John Goodman's GIR which has sailed over 500 miles this summer including the TX200 used Latex from what I remember, and was pleased.

[James McMullen]

Rowan is painted with latex, and she's got considerably north of 500 miles under her. I do the uber-high-gloss thing when the client requires it, but I try to limit my exposure to toxins in my hobby life. Waterborne paint is very friendly to your nervous system. Super glossy looks kinda silly and pretentious on traditional looking boats anyways.

[Daniel Noyes]

15 yrs. and 2 coats of latex house paint on my stitch and glue, plywood sailing skiff "Bagger"

[brucehallman]

I don't have much to add but I was curious what these looked like in 3D. So I did a 3D lofting, and am sharing...

A few random thoughts, the vertical stem (and requisite flat bottom forward) seems like it might cause some negative pressure, and digging/yawing if caught on the downside of a wave. Also, I like the cat yawl rig, with the balanced lug main. I am guess it would work fine with a single part mainsheet. The rudder looks like it might be a little awkward to set and remove when needing to beach the boat. At the top of this thread the GIS was compared to the Teal, which is an apples and oranges comparison in that the GIS is about twice the displacement capacity of the Teal, which is much smaller. All in all, I like the Goat Island Skiff, but would not want to car top any boat with this size and weight. My limit for car topping is perhaps 80 lbs, and this boat looks more like 125-150lbs.

http://www.hallman.org/boats/GoatIslandSkiff/

[David G]

Well, that's fun. Thanks for the 3D view.

Yes, even the original works just fine with a single part sheet. I don't wear gloves, just use slightly oversized line with a soft hand... and accept the less-than-perfect glide thru the sheaves. I've not noticed any rooting, but have had the same thought. Something to look out for. But not noticed so far - even in conditions wilder than I should have been out in.

I agree about the Teal comparison. I've been on both, and there is no comparison at all. Even a cursory look at the two boats would suggest as much. And let's just say cartopping is "a chore". One I'm quite happy to be over with.

That 'cassette' rudder arrangement is actually remarkably slick. Simple, strong, and handy. It's an easy matter to grab the rope loop at the top of the blade and yank it up to whatever height you want. Sailing thru the shallows or weeds? Pull it up as required. Beaching? Pull it up all the way. Headed back for deeper water? Shove it back down. It just slides smoothly against the friction created by the shock cord that pins the blade between the cheeks. Forget to pull it up as you charge into shore? No problem. The shock cord will allow the blade to kick up a good bit. You might put a dent into the forward block of the cheeks, or scuff the nose of your blade, but you won't likely break anything. I've done it more times than I care to admit.

[Dustin Laurence]

All in all, I like the Goat Island Skiff, but would not want to car top any boat with this size and weight. My limit for car topping is perhaps 80 lbs, and this boat looks more like 125-150lbs.

Great models, thanks!

I have some dreams of getting the boat to mountain lakes over jeep roads, so there are cases where a trailer isn't even an option. Trout fishing, anyone? If I could get it to Wyoming I'd consider fishing grassy lake by boat, except that's where they release the grizzlies that get too aggressive for Yellowstone park.... =8-O

In any event, my rather petite wife thinks you're all a bunch of wussies for not wanting to cartop something that only amounts to 70 or so lbs per person. :-) But then, she also suggested that if I manage to learn to hunt in California we should butcher our own game since there is no point in paying someone to do something so simple. Girls tend to grow up capable in Montana. :-)

Dustin

[Dustin Laurence]

Super glossy looks kinda silly and pretentious on traditional looking boats anyways.

While Rowan is indeed traditional looking by any definition, the Goat looks like a modern, aggressive-looking performance boat to me. It's the plumb bow and minimal sheer--it looks like a lot of boats made to fit a rating rule with an overall length requirement or factor. I suppose that's not an accident since Storer was working within the length limit of two scarfed eight-foot sheets of plywood.

My problem with hi-gloss is that it shows every burble and imperfection. Not good for us wood butchers. I assume I can learn to fair the plywood, but still....

Using the toughest possible paint on the foils makes tons of sense, however.

[Dustin Laurence]

Mik recommends the 2-part for the whole boat, and varnish for the interior.

The pictures of the bright-finished interior goats are very nice.I absolutely love natural finished wood--on other people's boats. I kinda sorta want to try a simple oil finish, but realistically I should use the most long-lasting economical finish, which I suspect means paint. Whatever I build may well have to live outside, and while it is dry here most of the year that means at least a couple of week-long drenchings a rainy season, and bone-dry and very hot all summer.

If I can, I'll subject the snot boat to that and not a wood boat, but I'm not sure what I'll end up doing.

[MiddleAgesMan]

I'm pretty sure my Goat (and yours, D.G.) have two-part mainsheets. It's secured to the end of the boom, runs down to a block on the rope traveler, then back up to the boom, then forward to another block, then down to the ratchet block, then to hand.

Is that two part or three?

[switters]

I have skiff plans but a few other boats have gotten in the way. Many moons ago I acquired a sea snark while living in Durango CO, and used it mostly to troll. Landing a fish in small sailboat on small lakes takes a bit of multi tasking, but very do-able. The key to enjoying this is well placed rod holders that is not in the way of the tiller and sheets. On the very small snark it was on the outside of the transom, on something like the goat I've been thinking one near the transom on either side.

[James McMullen]

Two part, I think. Boom to traveler to boom again is just like a gun tackle, two to one purchase. All the other bits are just directional elements.

[brucehallman]

For cartopping heavy boats I have rigged up an attachment for my 2" trailer hitch. The "L" piece is made of 2 inch square tube. The "T" piece on top is a square tube welded to a 1 1/2 round pipe. This "T" can then rotate. The whole assembly means that I only need to lift half the boat at once, first one half onto the "T", then I tie it down to the "T" and lift the other end and walk 180 degrees, lifting the remainder of the boat onto my roof rack. This boat in the photo was built (what I consider to be) ultra-light, 16 footer straked with 1/8" ply, weight 80 lbs.

[brucehallman]

I used Interlux Brightsides and was impressed ...

I am a notorious cheapskate, but Interlux Brightsides is freakin' awesome paint, worth every penny. I even used it to refinish a beat up old bathtub in a house remodel.

[peterchech]

Nice setup bruce!

[Dustin Laurence]

For cartopping heavy boats I have rigged up an attachment for my 2" trailer hitch.

I like it. "Nice rack," however, just seems like the wrong thing to say. :-)

This boat in the photo was built (what I consider to be) ultra-light, 16 footer straked with 1/8" ply, weight 80 lbs.

I like the sculling notch--I was thinking I might want one on a GIS if indeed I build one.

[David G]

Two part, I think. Boom to traveler to boom again is just like a gun tackle, two to one purchase. All the other bits are just directional elements.

I do believe you are right, how that I think about it.

[Clinton B Chase]

. I absolutely love natural finished wood--on other people's boats. I kinda sorta want to try a simple oil finish, but realistically I should use the most long-lasting economical finish, which I suspect means paint. Whatever I build may well have to live outside, and while it is dry here most of the year that means at least a couple of week-long drenchings a rainy season, and bone-dry and very hot all summer.

If I can, I'll subject the snot boat to that and not a wood boat, but I'm not sure what I'll end up doing.

We should use our Goats hard, and take care of them as they get used hard. Paint is the way to go if this is the plan. With that said, I certainly like the look of varnish on the interior which, if I absolutely had to put that much varnish on a boat (someone would have to pay me to do it...it is more fuss in the construction), I would do it on the interior. A good boat cover will keep it lasting and safe from UVs. Most of our boats, sadly, spend more time under cover than they do on the water. Just to reiterate, getting a go0d varnish result on Okoume requires a lot more fuss from the start: picking decent looking panels, making sure they don't get stained/beat up is storage or while moving parts around, you can't use putty on a varnished boat like you can on a painted boat, etc, etc. My feeling is that it is important to go into a boat project from the very beginning with a clear idea of how it will be finished so expectations can be set and good decisions made, like regarding using temp screws or not for clamping, and how much extra time/patience/sanity one has to keep the wood good for the final varnished job.

[Peter Belenky]

Is that two part or three?

You could look at the problem in terms of the proportional shortening of each part for a given angular rotation of the boom. The tension on every part of the sheet has to be the same, and the work of turning the boom is given. With work equal to force times distance, the tension is inversely proportional to the total shortening of the rope parts. If the parts at the clew end (assumed identical) shorten by a foot each, and the part leading down amidships shortens by six inches for a total of 2-1/2 feet, that means the tension is 1 / 2.5 of that of a single-part sheet from the clew end. The ratio would change, depending on where you mount the turning block on the boom. If it's at the tack, the ratio is 1 / 2. If it's at the clew, it's 1 / 3.

[Dustin Laurence]

If it's at the tack, the ratio is 1 / 2. If it's at the clew, it's 1 / 3.

This is a pretty good point--there is a lever involved as well as the tackle. One usually doesn't have to think about that.

That would be an excellent problem to put on a freshman mechanics test. <grins evilly>

[Dustin Laurence]

My feeling is that it is important to go into a boat project from the very beginning with a clear idea of how it will be finished so expectations can be set and good decisions made, like regarding using temp screws or not for clamping, and how much extra time/patience/sanity one has to keep the wood good for the final varnished job.

This seems like excellent advice. My wood butchery skill is a step or so above cutting out panels with a chain saw (that *is* the wrong approach, right?). Well, maybe not that bad, but at any rate I fear if I tried to have a pretty varnish job I could use as a shaving mirror, I'd never get the job done. :-) I think I can make a serviceable boat, though, so that's my modest aim. It seems that paint is more protective of both the boat and the builder's ego. My kids might think sailing is more fun if dad is less uptight about the sorts of knocks and dings growing boys are likely to create, too.

I admit that I often like a dull, plain oil workboat finish inside and out, however. Seems more seamanlike to me than brightwork. But my first boat is going to be just practical, without extra hurdles and complexity of my own making.

We should use our Goats hard, and take care of them as they get used hard.

That guy who is using his to carry gravel, or concrete, or whatever he needed a waterborne pickup for, probably isn't obsessed with brightwork. (Seems a bit like ploughing with a Thoroughbread, but hey....) I heard a saying, once: "boats are safe in the harbor, but that isn't what boats are for." My boats are for raising my boys, really.

[David G]

I used varnish for gunwale area, knees, and transom cap on our GIS. Otherwise paint. I think the reason Mik likes a natural finished interior, is not because he's aiming for a concours d'elegance finish. And not because he loves to varnish. It's because a natural finish has so many natural variation in color, texture, etc. - that it hides a multitude of sins. It's certainly true that ours - with no floorboard, and painter Heron (pale) Blue - shows every piece of sand, seaweed, dripped fishblood, spilled salmon eggs, etc. I've considered adding some slatted floorboards. Even bought the wood. Still dithering. Don't want to add the weight. If I should go ahead... I'll probably finish them with Sikkens Cetol Marine 'Natural Teak'.

[callsign222]

The rudder looks like it might be a little awkward to set and remove when needing to beach the boat.

I'll re-iterate what David G said, but the cassette rudder system is nothing but a joy to work with. I was skeptical at first and Storer talked me into it, and I'm glad he did! It's efficient, light, no moving parts, it stays down, and it's if you can't get to it while charging pirate-like onto the beach, it will kick back and often slide up on its own. My rudder has sustained no damage over many groundings, etc.

It's surprisingly awesome.

[MiddleAgesMan]

The Aussie rudder box (cassette) is a huge improvement to a pivoting rudder. You can ignore it entirely when beaching if you have more important things to deal with. Or you can pull it up so just a few inches remain submerged and it will still steer. The best thing about them is the fact that the effort to steer doesn't change as it does when a rudder pivots aft.

[callsign222]

That's right! In shallow waters, keep it down a few inches, and no weird lever-arm pulling/dragging going on. Still effective, and still easy to maneuver the boat! I have skimmed out of many impossible shallows with aplomb while my rudder was almost all the way up. Talk about geek-out over this rudder concept.


Dan Noyes, I absolutely love your Sandbagger. Bravo.

[davebrown]

What are you guys using as primer for latex paint (outside of the hull)? I have used it worth poor to middling success. I hvae had mch better luck with exterior oil base, like rustoelum.

[David G]

Dave,

I'm surprised no one has answered you yet. I'm not a latex paint guy. I've never used it on a boat. The only latex paint job that I know what they used as primer - they used the same thing I have used on our GIS, and several other projects also. That is a white pigmented shellac based primer from Zinsser. He says he uses it exclusively under latex paints, and raves about it. I can say that it certainly works well under oil-based paints. Maybe some of the water-based fans will be along later to offer other thoughts and options.