15 foot sailboat

**njcoaster** · 12-30-2002, 04:13 PM

Does anyone have any advice on a 14 or 15 foot sailboat for light duty in protected waters? Here are the qualification:

1. Stitch and glue
2. Stable, family boat, but sprightly
3. Easy to maintain
4. possible use under oar or with small motor for fishing.

There are several sources for sloop and sharpie plans, but I would value some feedback before I decide which to order. I want something basic, but I am hoping for a good compromise between dryness and speed. The boat will live in a garage on a trailer at the New Jersey shore, operated by my father (mid-sixties) and others.

**Leon Steyns** · 12-30-2002, 04:26 PM

I'd recommend the Caravelle (look here) from Bateau.com (Mertens-Goossens). It's a S&G re-design from a 1920s family trainer that is still being used in Brittany coastal waters. I'm building one from the Bateau.com plans and I like the quality and the service they provide. Here's a picture:

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[ 12-30-2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Leon Steyns ]

**njcoaster** · 12-30-2002, 04:36 PM

Thanks for the response. Looks nice. I notice it has a pram bow. What is the effect of that over a conventional front?
Bateau also has a Sharpie design, don't they? Glen L also has a couple of 14 and 15 footers.

**ishmael** · 12-30-2002, 04:43 PM

Have a look at these. Look under the beach cruiser section. The Bay River Skiff would fit your bill, and be quite able for further adventures, if you wanted.

I think these are very nice boats, and from what I can tell they go together really slick.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/default.htm

[ 12-30-2002, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

**mmd** · 12-30-2002, 05:03 PM

If I may be so bold, and hopefully not get Scot mad at me, I am just completing a design for a daysailer for the Small Wooden Boat Assoc. of Nova Scotia that pretty much fits your description. If you would like to see a bit more about it, go to www.swbans.org and click on "November newsletter" and then "Designing the Swabbie".

**njcoaster** · 12-31-2002, 10:09 AM

I like the looks of the Swabbie. How long is it? Are the plans available to the general public? And if so, is it realtively easy to construct? I would be happy to learn more about it.

**ishmael** · 12-31-2002, 10:31 AM

That's a NICE looking boat mmd; compliments to the chef!

How 'bout a sliding gunter rig as an option? It seems such a good rig for a boat of this size and type. Maybe I skipped a part about class racing in the intro?

Anyhoo, nice.

**Gordy** · 12-31-2002, 10:41 AM

I built a Core Sound 17 by B&B. If you can fit a 17 footer in your garage it's worth considering. I can launch and rig mine in well under 10 minutes.

There are some pics at this site, if my 'album' isnt up you'll have to select other albums.

http://www.messing-about.com/smallboats/albums.htm

**ishmael** · 12-31-2002, 11:03 AM

Gordy,

How did you find the building process? They look like they would go together slicker that goose grease. A quicker build than the Swabie I'll wager.

And how do you like the cat ketch rig. What are the arrangements for reefing?

Best,

Jack

**njcoaster** · 12-31-2002, 11:24 AM

I like the 17. Very nice.

**mmd** · 12-31-2002, 12:04 PM

njcoaster & Ish, the Swabbie is 18 feet LOA, 6'-6" BOA, and 1'-0" draft (board up) with two adults aboard. Construction on the prototype boat is going to begin in February. Plans will be available to the general public through either myself or SWBANS. In deferance to our hosts, this is not the place to discuss price or ordering details. The rig is as it is mostly because I like it that way, but there is no class rules or anything to prevent one from trying different rigs. The boat is primarily intended to be a home-buildable day sailer and camp cruiser, so there are no rules except one set of plans = one boat (refer to the debate about building the Herreshoff 12-1/2 for my thoughts on royalty fees).

A SWBANS member in Alberta, who is an accomplished competitive dinghy sailor, has written a very good letter to the SWBANS newsletter discussing the design, to which I posted my reply late last night. To clarify some of the details of the design, I offer excerpts from the letter and my reply:

I may be a little far over on the performance side but you know my preferences in that area (Thistle, Tasar, 5-0-5, Lighting, International 14, etc.).

... I would like to reiterate that the design is intended primarily for day-sailing and camp-cruising, and racing performance has been given somewhat lesser attention.

... the substantial size of the skeg will eliminate any advantage of the rocker put in for good tiller response. ...I am not sure it (the rudder) is deep enough for good control particularly at greater angles of heel. ...The cross-sectional cord (of the centreboard) may be a bit narrow ... as thinner foils tend to stall more easily ... (and) a longer cross-section may be necessary for structural strength particularly if the (centre)board is built of plywood.

The skeg has been introduced primarily to add lateral area to reduce leeway when on the wind. It was not the intent of the design to produce quick, nimble buoy racers where small turning radii are critical; rather, a boat that could track well on an extended tack with minimal fussing with the tiller was the target. ...The rudder has been increased in size, as indicated that it should be by the regressional analysis of similar boats. The centreboard is to be a NACA Series 0015 foil which, due to it’s hydrodynamic shape, will produce significantly more lift to windward, create less parasitic drag and more laminar hydrodynamic flow, and offer a higher stall angle than a conventional flat plate centreboard with rounded leading and trailing edges. ...the centreboard ... is about 4cm thick at 25% of the chord (width). With laminated construction and skinned with ‘glass in epoxy, it will be quite stiff.

...the chine should tuck up and in more to bring the transom out of the water when heeled. ...before she can attain a full plane the stern may bury as she climbs up her bow wave to the planning trim. That would make the transition to planing difficult and frustrating in these conditions.

(the correspondant's) comment on the position of the chine is very perceptive. My initial intent was to provide as much reserve buoyancy aft as possible to enable the trim to remain relatively constant whether sailing alone or with a party of four. However, as the correspondant has pointed out, there will be a performance increase if the transom can be raised from its present configuration. I will see if I can “tweak” the lines in this area to gain a bit of speed without sacrificing the ability to carry more beer.

Other minor points: I hope a long tiller extension (at least the length of the tiller) would be in the plans as the crew should have the ability to keep the weight forward. The stay angling aft in the diagram I would assume is running and not fixed so the boom can be eased out for off the wind. Are you thinking of a spinnaker option for the serious and a working (smaller) jib for beginners and heavy airs? Is SWABBIE to be sailed with two or three crew? If you wanted to go traditional but fast then why not a bat-wing mainsail (i.e. fully battened main, turn of the century - before the last century, definitely fast and not quote "modern" for those who know sailing history and, definitely different).

The tiller as drawn is decidedly stumpy - a full foot longer would make it much more comfortable. I’ll leave the attachment of a tiller extension to the go-fasters in the crowd who want to tweak the boat for speed. The stay is definitely a running backstay; I considered aft-set shrouds to dispense with the backstay, but decided that the running backstay was apropos for the traditional gaff rig. In an effort to keep the rig simple and inexpensive, I did not consider a spinnaker for this boat. One could fit one, I suppose, but besides looking funny (to my eye, at least) with a gaff rig, I would have concerns about the reserve buoyancy in the bow to be able to stand up to a large spread of canvas far out over the bow on a downwind romp. The boat is intended for a crew of two for pleasure boating; it has been laid out so that it can be easily single-handed but roomy enough for four, and I suspect that if one were racing a good division of labour would be among three sailors. The idea of a bat-wing mainsail is quite intriguing, and I have been quite taken by Todd Bradshaw’s book on canoes featuring this rig, but as I am more interested in having the Swabbie display a more East-coast salty appearance than an inland lakes flavour, I will stick with the gaffer. I would also suggest that the cost of a plain gaff sail would be somewhat less than the bat-wing with all it’s batten pockets that need to be sewn.

In closing, I would like to thank (the correspondant) again for his experienced commentary. I shall look closely at several of his suggestions, and possibly incorporate a few of them in the final plans for the “Swabbie”.

... and I'd look forward to commentary from the WB forumites, too!

[ 12-31-2002, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: mmd ]

**ishmael** · 12-31-2002, 12:53 PM

Thanks mmd.

It reminds me a little of Alden's O boat, though a planing hull rather than displacement, and obviously a different rig.

Speaking of which, I would like someone to explain to me the practicallity of a gaff rig in such a small boat. I'm not saying they aren't, and there are all the good arguments for gaffers in general, but in such a boat there would also seem to be some drawbacks over other rigs. Such as, that gaff whacking about when trying to get the main reefed, in a blow, and the added complexity in a boat meant to be trailered.

I'm sure I just don't understand gaffers very well.

I don't have the expertise to comment on the foils in the centerboard and the rudder. They obviously are small by traditional standards, but if the physics and the math seem right, they'd be great. Especially the smaller centerboard, in a cockpit meant for camping in!

Look forward to progress reports.

Jack

**Gordy** · 12-31-2002, 01:07 PM

Ishmael,

Get a big pile of wood and a set of plans. Go through the plans page by page. No individual part is difficult. When you finish with the plans the pile of wood will be gone and there will be a boat there instead!

Ok, maybe it's a little bit more involved. Go to the website and look around. Graham has been teaching boatbuilding for 18 years at a community
college. He's well aware of the areas where a novice might need an in depth discription.

My biggest surprise came when I found out how well it performs. My next boat will certainly also be a cat-ketch! I love the simplicity and performance.

**mmd** · 12-31-2002, 01:21 PM

Ish, the gaff rig is an unadulterated stab at nostalgia and has nothing to do with practicality.

A practical rig would be a marconi, and that would put the boat in with hundreds, of not thousands, of boats of similar design. The gaff rig is a tip of the hat, so to speak, to the history of the region I live in and an attempt to achieve a "look" that I find attractive. As I mentioned in the SWBANS newsletter, I have drawn several design cues from William Roue's Bluenose Class sloops and these were originally fitted with gaff mains. Also, I am not opposed to builders experimenting with different rigs for the boat, nor is the boat intended to be a "class" boat, so the gaff rig is not sacrosanct. An advantage of a gaff rig is that a greater sail area can be flown on a given mast height, therefore allowing a shorter mast to be carried than would be the case of a marconi rig of the same area. Rigging from a trailer wouldn't be any more complex than a marconi; you gain an extra operation by having to slip the gaff on the mast and fix the parrel line, but you don't have to fit the backstay and tune it as this is done underway with the running backstays. There is no easy way out of your comment about the gaff thrashing about while reefing the main, but practice can make it a relatively easy process with no attendant ulcer-producing moments. Actually, the hard part is lowering the main completely in a breeze, when the gaff is dancing about merrily at head level. Fortunately, it is about the size of a broomstick and of light wood, so capturing it without pain shouldn't be too hard a task.

**holzbt** · 12-31-2002, 01:26 PM

This one may be a bit on the small side but check out the rest of his designs too.

http://www.devlinboat.com/dczephyr.htm

**ishmael** · 12-31-2002, 01:55 PM

mmd,

I have to extol the virtues of the rig on my Drascombe lugger, again. I different type of boat than you've drawn, for sure.

The rig, a gunter rigged yawl, is dead simple to assemble. The spars are short enought to store in the boat. Set up at the launch ramp is SO easy. Plop in the mizzen, step the main, lash and fasten two shrouds and a forestay, and reeve the sheets.

The jib is on a furler.

In the event of a squall, you loose the halyard, bringing the main down in a hurry, loose the jib sheet, and furl the jib. In the span of less than a practiced minute you've gone from full sail, to a riding sail. It really is slick!

It's a reasonably weatherly rig too.

Well, as you can tell, I think the Drascombe's layout is hard to beat for the type of boat it is.

Given the differences in type, I'd still like to see you draw a gunter sloop rig for Swabbie.

Jack

[ 12-31-2002, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

**Meerkat** · 12-31-2002, 02:07 PM

Something that's even easier then S&G according to designer John Welsford is stringer lapstrake - panels lapped over longitudinal stringers. His argument is that, over about 12', it gets pretty hard for the amateur to adjust those floppy panels around to get a true shape.

What's become virtually his signature boat is a handsome craft called "Navigator".
LOA 4.5m 14ft 9in
Beam 1.8m 5ft 10in
Weight 140kg 309lbs
Sails 12.6sqm 136sq ft

More info available at Duckworks Magazine. There is a wealth of additional information, including many pics and construction photes at http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/1WBNZOf...atorindex.html and a great Navigator story at http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/1WBNZOf...avigators.html

**JimD** · 01-01-2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by njcoaster:
Thanks for the response. Looks nice. I notice it has a pram bow. What is the effect of that over a conventional front?
Bateau also has a Sharpie design, don't they? Glen L also has a couple of 14 and 15 footers.

I built and sail a Glen-L Minuet and am very happy with her. The cabin comes in handy for snoozing or shelter if the weather turns.
jimd

**DaBoss** · 01-02-2003, 11:46 AM

I agree that the Bay River and CoreSound boats would work well, albeit a bit larger than your goal (the CS that is). I think Gordy has a story on the B and B site on construction of yours, don't you Gordy?? Very nice designs, and the construction is simple, near as I can tell, yet results in a very pleasing boat. I love the concept and the "no fuss" aspect of that little cat ketch set up.

Bay River 15 foot Skiff

Devlin's Nancy's China can be done as a daysailer, with electric power. Nice design........

Karl Stambaugh has his Windward 15 that may do nicely too. He has a webpage called chesapeke marine designs. Karl Stambaugh

[ 01-02-2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: DaBoss ]

**njcoaster** · 01-03-2003, 10:22 AM

Thanks to all of you for your advice!

This gives me a lot of food for thought. I don't know if, given my level of experience, being part of the Beta group on the Swabbie is right for me. Similarly, the Navigator is an absolute beauty, but I think That might be the boat after next, when my chisels and skills are a little sharper. The Bay Skiff looks fairly easy, which appeals to me. I haven't heard anyone rave about it's speed, but it looks practical. Personally, I think I would want a single mast setup, although the ketch rig seems to creat a lot of usable space and a lot of sail area. I have no idea how to operate that kind of rig, however.

Devlin's Nancy's China as a daysailer is a contender, too. Cabins and tents are not a major draw for me. After all, this is New Jersey, the most densely populated state in the Union! There aren't really a lot of great little picnic islands, etc. (Although the southern end of our coast is very beautiful, it aint New Zealand or Baja by a long patch).

I was drawn to the idea of the sharpie at first because it is a traditional American design. I guess a sharpie is a somewhat generic, narrow-beamed, flat-bottomed skiff in essence. I am addressing a lot of nautical ignorance as I go, so thanks for all of your help.
Any opinions on the Glen L designs? They look a little shallow to me, like you might get a pretty wet ride [img]smile.gif[/img]

**DaBoss** · 01-03-2003, 10:35 AM

NJ,
Take a look at the articles on the B and B site if you haven't already. There is good explanation of the use of a cat ketch rig, reasoning for using such rig, etc. There is also a nice article on the performance of the core sound boats there. The boats are stitch and glue,though slightly different sequence than some s&g designs. There looks to be nothing unusually difficult in construction. If you can go the extra 2 feet, the Core Sound would handle a large crew of folks. I think that Gordy uses his for some serious fishing. I like the removeable canvas dodger too.

There have been a lot of Navigators built by home builders. John's methods seem very practicle and straightforward with nothing any too difficult to handle. The owners really rave about these little boats.

[ 01-03-2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: DaBoss ]

**njcoaster** · 01-03-2003, 01:49 PM

Boss-
I know that the Navigator is very doable. It looks to me like there are many more steps, which inevitably means a lot more time. I don't have a band saw for cutting molds and planks with, for instance.

**ishmael** · 01-03-2003, 02:11 PM

Ya don't need a band saw. T'would be nice, but a skill saw and a portable jig saw ought to do it for power tools. Occasional access to a table saw and planer would be handy too, but not necessary.

But, I think Navigator is gonna be considerably more work than the Bay or CS cat ketches. Meerkat's suggestion that achieving a fair hull with the later is a bit of trick is likely true, but forewarned is forearmed. With a bit of care at the critical junctures it should be doable by an amateur.

I wouldn't be put off by the rig. It's simpler, in many ways, than a typical sloop rig. Learning to handle it well, as with any rig, would be a matter of practice.

Navigator IS a nice looking boat, however.

So many possibilities.

Jack

**Scott Rosen** · 01-03-2003, 02:28 PM

I sure like the looks of Navigator. Not too hard to build, pretty to look at and fun to sail.

**DaBoss** · 01-03-2003, 02:53 PM

Yes, the Navigator would be a bit more work than the Core Sound boats. But I don't think that you'd need a bandsaw. As Ish mentioned, a skill saw or jig saw would do just fine to get you close to shape, followed up by some planing off the the final line. The Navigator is built over stringers. Alot of times, with this type method, the panels are cut a bit oversize and trimmed in situ to fit perfectly (as per some Sleway-Fisher boats). I imagine that the same could be done with the Navigator. She certainly seems roomy and capable for a boat her size. And to my eye she's very pleasing.

The Core Sound boats depend on accurrate measuring and cutting of the plywood panels. With not much more than a transom and center "mold", you simply fold the panels (joined partially) around the mold to get the boat to take form........pretty slick. If you cut the panels to close tolerences, gaps will be minimal, lines will be fair.

These are perhaps, very over simplified descriptions, but I don't think you need a host of power tools to do either boat. I think, if you had the patience and time, that you could do either with hand tools only..............Not that I'd really want to volunteer to do such a thing

. But if you did, you'd be DA'MAN!

Choosing a design is a quite personal thing, I think. It doesn't help that there are lots of them out there to choose from, but it sure makes the process fun. I hope this is helping and not hindering or frustrating to you.

**ishmael** · 01-03-2003, 03:15 PM

Looking over one of the Navigator links Meerkat posted, I can almost smell occume and epoxy dust.

A very nice looking boat!

Shooting from the hip, I'd figure double, in time, for the Navigator, as opposed to the CS 17. The Navigator looks a much more complex construction, to my eye, but more boat, in some ways. What is that, a spinnaker launch tube on the foredeck? Lot's of twiddling things during building.

I think, from what you've said, that one of the BB boats would be perfect. The Core Sound 17!

BTW, if you feel like buying a new tool for this project, think about a cordless circular saw.

[ 01-03-2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

**Meerkat** · 01-03-2003, 03:45 PM

Hmm... I wonder if you're talking about the anchor gear well on the foredeck of the Navigator?

Did you read the story about the Navigator taking est. 55kt winds in stride? [img]smile.gif[/img]

John has remarked that for many of his customers, Navigator is their first boat building experience, so it can't be all that hard. One does indeed put the panels on oversize and then trim to size. Also, I think that scarphing, such as it is, is all done on the hull and no having to wave 17'+ long panels around whilst trying to offer them up to the hull.

With John's method, you:
* Build the frames
* Lay out the bottom panel and spring it into the desired rocker.
* Erect the frames on the bottom panel
* Attach the stringers
* Panel the hull
* Flip it over, glass the bottom and maybe the first panel, attach rubbing strakes etc.
* Paint
* Rig
* Sail

One nice aspect of building this way is that as soon as you have the first or 2nd panel on the bottom you can reach in and start doing some of the interior work from ground level rather then finishing up the hull and then have to climb in and out of it to do so.

From what I've read and heard from John, the waters of NZ are windy and boisterous on good days and downhill from there: he designs accordingly.

**ishmael** · 01-03-2003, 03:56 PM

Meerkat,

Third photo.

http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/1WBNZOf.../building.html

Building that hull is going to take a bunch of time compared to scarfing a few panels,cutting, stitching and gluing. A reasonably confident worker could have the CS hull glued before the mold/frames and stringers were set up on the Navigator. All those pieces!, that have to be right!

Still a very nice boat. With a gunter main, I might even consider it a candidate for finast kind in the dinghy cruising class.

Jack

**njcoaster** · 01-03-2003, 05:55 PM

Here is my current boat project, which I began without plans, pencils, paper or even an idea of how long it would be. I started kind of by accident one day with some scrap lumber. I made a keel and then I hung three different sized ribs from it, and slid them around until I thought they made a pleasing line. I used tarpaper to make templates for the plywood pieces by pinning it to the framing. A nitpicker might notice a lack of perfect symmetry.

The slight V-hull caused 80% of my grief, but it was worth it. I "designed" it with the Delaware River in mind (flared sided, raked transon, highish bow). 26" chine beam, 43" shear beam.

It will be a fun little boat (12'3") named Mussel, hopefully launching by March.

This project has gotten me very hooked, and I am plowing through every boatbuilding book I can find. I am ready for something substantial!

**Eric Sea Frog** · 01-04-2003, 07:02 AM

NJCoaster,

Nice try, what about a fore-bench-and-mast-and- leeboard-and-rudder ? Or will you just row her?

**Meerkat** · 01-05-2003, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by ishmael:
Meerkat,

Third photo.

http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/1WBNZOf.../building.html

Building that hull is going to take a bunch of time compared to scarfing a few panels,cutting, stitching and gluing. A reasonably confident worker could have the CS hull glued before the mold/frames and stringers were set up on the Navigator. All those pieces!, that have to be right!

Still a very nice boat. With a gunter main, I might even consider it a candidate for finast kind in the dinghy cruising class.

Jack

Ish; they don't have to be _that_ right in the first place (John says that many Navigator builders are first timers), and I think you're way underestimating the amount of time for a decent s&g boat - there are lots of fiddly little bits in any boat. Recall, a hull is 1/3 of the build in time and materials. Seems to me that a lot of the Navigator just gets built earlier then later.

I agree that the Navigator is right up there with boats like the Wayfarer.

**Armedmariner** · 01-05-2003, 09:25 AM

Thanks for this website. Awesome designs. They have a nice explanation of the abilities of a cat ketch rig on this site, very well done. These look like well thought out designs too, not a lot of Kentucky Windage needed to build them. Thanks again.

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