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Thread: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

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    Default Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    I just completed a study of Phil Bolger's little known boat design (#501) which is a large scow schooner. I thought to share this here, as this design of his really boggles the mind, and some people here might like to see.

    Click this URL for a slideshow...

    http://www.hallman.org/bolger/501/


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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Bruce, nice job. There have been several threads about scow schooners lately, so this is timely.

    Do you have the vital statistics on this design? How does the hull differ from the scow schooner in BWOM?

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    I like everything about that boat except for the rig, the hull and the leeboards.
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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    RF Jr.
    "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates." ~ Mark Twain


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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    The Scow Schooner from BWAOM is 28' long and a hair under 10 feet of beam. This Live-aboard Scow Schooner is 35 or 36 feet over all (I recall seeing both figures). The beam looks to be about 11-12 feet, though at first glance it appears a bit slimmer, I think because the ends are somewhat finer than some scows.

    And James, I realize that you don't like leeboards, but that's a perfectly sweet schooner rig. And the hull would stack up well against any other scow form hull.

    Now as for the full width house, I'll agree that it's not the prettiest thing I've ever seen, but as an attempt to design a sailing houseboat, which is what this design exercise was for Bolger, it would be very functional, and with some care in the detailing, might not end up looking so bad in real life. It would certainly be very nice from the inside.

    Of course, 'taint as purty as your Rowan, for sure!!

    Bob

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    This might be silly, but it looks rather like a Humpback whale with a schooner rig.



    Reminds me of The Voyage of Babar the Elephant, by Jean de Brunhoff, that I loved as a child.



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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    My old friend Ron Barnes built a bare hull to that design on spec way back in the '80s. It was sitting fore lorn creekside in St. Augustine last I saw of it. Oddly enough, Ron had painted it the same shade of green as it appears in the linked drawings.
    Goat Island Skiff and Simmons Sea Skiff construction photos here:

    http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w...esMan/?start=0

    and here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/37973275@N03/

    "All kings are not the same."

  8. #8

    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    >I like everything about that boat except for the rig, the hull and the leeboards.

    Yes, like about half of Bolger's boats, it is irresponsible, a gratuitous mockery of right thinking boatmen and...

    The bare hull length is 35ft and width is 11ft 6in.

    Other random thoughts: The bow transom allows the bottom and bilge panels to be of equal curvature, which would net to a zero pressure differential across the chines according to the "sea of peas" theory. Almost no standing rigging, except for the stays on the foremast. No winches. The interior space is gigantic relative to other 35 foot 'live-aboards'.
    Last edited by brucehallman; 01-28-2011 at 10:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    How many large, contiguous areas of protected waters are there to make such a boat worthwhile?

    The Intracoastal Waterway, Bohuslän archipelago, Åland archipelago, Penobscot Bay, Ha Long Bay?
    1947 Nordic Folkboat "Nina"

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnacleGrim View Post
    How many large, contiguous areas of protected waters are there to make such a boat worthwhile?
    You could spend a lifetime exploring Puget Sound, the west coast of Canada and the Alaskan panhandle. Haines, AK to Olympia, WA 2,000 miles and thousands of islands.
    Last edited by brucehallman; 01-28-2011 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    And the east coast of North America and the Caribbean. I rather like her.

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    New Caledonia has a considerable barrier reef. The shoal draught is good for rivers and mangroves.
    1947 Nordic Folkboat "Nina"

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    James - how many scow schooners are all weather, blue-water craft? Aesthetics aside, for living aboard and cruising Puget Sound, et al, the shoal draft and large amounts of room are definite plusses. I would definitely have preferred one of these over my old Catalina. Err, assuming I didn't have to pay the difference for sails, gas or docking fees.

    Anyway, there's no reason you couldn't add winches, and there are commercial sailboats this size that do just fine without standing rigging . . . so there!

    As scow schooners go, this one is the best I've seen for living aboard, and would make a nice floating home for a nomadic couple. Except I expect that hull is pretty darn noisy . . . .

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Needs a junk rig.

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I guess I just like Cullers version ever so much better. That one probably actually is a blue-water scow schooner.
    Arguing 'blue water' can be like arguing how many angels dance on a head of a pin.

    Differences I see between the Culler's 45footer and Bolger's 501 include that Cullers is about 100% bigger. Culler's has a latent fin keel versus the leeboard. I suspect that the leeboards would hold on a bit better to windward than the latent keel. Also, I recall an argument that in a hurricane in the open that there is an advantage to being able to lift the leeboards because the hull can drift with the windblown surface flow easier than a hull that holds on in the deeper water. Certainly, there is much more air resistance on the Culler rig due to the large amount of standing rigging. Standing rigging is a significant cause of dragging anchor. The full width cabin (with resultant high buoyancy) on Bolger's boat probably gives it a better stablity curve, and therefore more prone to being self-righting after a knockdown. Not to mention that the Bolger boat has no fin keel to grab and cause overturning moment (and broaching) if caught on a downhill slide on a rogue wave.

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    JimD

    A Junk-rigg!

    Don't know , wether to laugh or think it to be a good idea.....would look quite nice and appropiate though !!

    Yeah.....sailing chinese with a scow......

    Jantje

  17. #17

    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    I am speaking of the lengthwise static (latent) fin keel seen in this photo...

    http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...s/ninapro4.jpg

    I think you might not know that Phil Bolger had decades of hard earned first hand "real world" experience sailing with leeboards. First on his Pointer in the 1960's and later on his Resolution in the 1980's.

    I am sorry to hear of your disappointing personal experience with leeboards.

    Don't paint Phil Bolger with such a broad brush. He has designed plenty of deep keel boats. I suspect the two big reasons he used leeboards in his design 501 is for interior cabin ergonomics, and for the desirability of having this design being able to set squarely on a dry out tidal berth. (Economical berthing.)

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I guess I just like Cullers version ever so much better. That one probably actually is a blue-water scow schooner.
    He did so well with the Leavitt after all. Culler was all hype

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I will certainly concede that he was a true genius at wringing a maximum amount of average boat from a dollar, or a limited craftsman's skill set. But after a great deal of empirical, real-world testing, I have since come to the conclusion that the great Phil Bolger was actually better at writing advertising copy and post hoc rationalizations than he was at wringing maximum performance from a boat design.
    But why would anyone build a 35' scow schooner if not to wring the maximum amount of boat from a dollar and limited craftsman's skills (or time if he's married lol)?

    The only reason anyone would build a scow schooner liveaboard today, IMHO, is for exactly these reasons. Lots of space inside for the amount of length you are paying for at a slip, shoal draft, easy and economical building, stable and safe in most conditions, just generally comfortable, upright cruising! Of all the talk of "blue water" ability, if you intend to cross the pond tommorrow, then scrap the scow and build a blue water cruiser! I think the vast majority of boat builders will never realistically need blue water ability. It's like buying an SUV. Most people never go off road into the mountains, crossing rivers. Yet so many are willing to pay more for an SUV, use much more gas, have trouble parking in the city, etc. just because they know that they could go off roading one day. Hence, global warming...

    And as far as seaworthiness goes, take this for what it's worth (2 cents), but a "wide" beamed boat, with significant rocker, can be very stable, especially with the boards up. Think: catamaran. It prob needs little if any ballast (the chebacco needs none and has a similar bottom profile not counting the bows), and thus, like a cat, can easily be built to be unsinkable. Performance will be pretty low, but if most time is spent in port, and if weather can be planned for, then this boat is a whole lot cheaper than buying a summer house, and way more fun!!!
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    a "wide" beamed boat, with significant rocker, can be very stable, especially with the boards up. Think: catamaran. It prob needs little if any ballast
    Agreed. Notice that the cabin of Bolger's 501 gives massive reserve buoyancy up high. According to my quick calculation, the displacement is about 5.8 tons, the hull weight 3.2 tons, and if gear weighs 1.5 ton, then about 1 ton of ballast would be needed under the cabin floorboards (probably about 10 cubic feet of scrap steel encased in concrete).

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Thanks for sharing Bruce. And the back-and-forth between you guys makes for a good read, even for a powerboater like myself.

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Truth be told James, you're probably right. But being that right now I'm in a position of having no boat (only dinghies), anything I can affor that floats and has a cabin will suffice, even "con tiki"!

    Just out of curiousity, are you against the idea of scows generally, or do you think that a rounded bilge "non bolger" scow has its merits?
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    I think scows certainly have their place, and I've even daydreamed about building one myself on the cheap from a surplus steel barge to serve as a mothership/home base support vehicle for a flock of sail & oar boats. But I guess I don't like the idea of spending as much money and time as the design #501 would require to end up with a boat I wouldn't feel safe to sail to Tahiti in when I'm done. It seems to me to fall in the cracks between between mosty static houseboat and actual cruising sailboat.
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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    No boat meets every purpose. Is any scow appropriate for that task? Other designs are intended for cruising to Tahiti, including one Bolger design named "Tahiti".


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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    This might be silly, but it looks rather like a Humpback whale with a schooner rig.

    Leeboards always look like flippers. Just pick the marine mammal of choice.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    But if you are lucky enough to have similar tastes to Mr. Bolger then you are good to go.
    With 700+ designs across a full spectrum of possibilities, having "similar tastes" spans from the shoebox punt to the HMS Rose.



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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Bruce, I'm sorry. I think I've stomped on your thread about "look at this interesting scow schooner design" too much with my own idiosyncracies and prejudices. I am going to delete a bunch of of my previous posts and start over.


    Looks like an interesting boat for someone.
    Last edited by James McMullen; 01-29-2011 at 12:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Culler's scow schooner has deadrise and a centerboard alongside the shoal keel, but interestingly, he sketched an altenative plan for that project showing flat bottom, parallel, vertical sides, and leeboards. That design closely resembled the Maine freight scows shown in Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft, which also used leeboards.
    Peter Belenky

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Leeboards always look like flippers. Just pick the marine mammal of choice.
    Actually, evolution being the supreme designer, a resemblance to a marine organism is not a bad characteristic for a sailing craft.

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    The only marine organism I'm familiar with that actually sails anywhere is the extra-poisonous Portuguese Man-O-War jellyfish. Just sayin'.
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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Hah! Tentacles to inhibit leeway. Think of the shoal draft possibilities! A PDR will probably be sportin' a shredded polytarp version by tomorrow.

    Hey... swans sail downwind while waterborne.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I like everything about that boat except for the rig, the hull and the leeboards.
    Why not design something better? You're obviously 'hung up' on old designs you never had a hand in. 'Born again' prejudice? Before you 'fell in love' with the instant boats and switched religion, did ya ever visit the working man's wharf?

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Well...
    A. I'm a better builder than I am a designer.
    B. Hung up? Never had a hand in? What are you talking about? Getting any boat from lines on paper to reality counts as "having a hand in," I should think. And seeing as I've built 56 so far in everything from sea kayaks to schooners and prams to powerboats, I wouldn't say I'm all that hung up on any one particular kind of boat. I do have my favorites, of course.
    C. Once bitten, twice shy. I counted them up, and of the nine Bolger boats I've built, I was only actually satisfied with one of them!
    D. I don't love instant boats (see C. above) . .I prefer boats based on working boats that have evolved over time and withstood years of real world testing.

    I don't really understand what your point is, Shagrock.
    Last edited by James McMullen; 01-30-2011 at 05:59 AM.
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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    a) agreed
    b) simple language..'never had a hand in'..you never designed, my language is clear.
    c) 1/9 of 100's of Bolger designs...so
    d) I find this a 'bit lame', since you have repeatedly said in earlier threads on this forum that you were totally smitten with the 'instant boats'...where were you before that?

    That's quite okay man as sometimes I don't get why you push your prejudices either.
    Last edited by ShagRock; 01-30-2011 at 06:11 AM.


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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    I like it.
    What i thought was a main fore stay sail, but the tack comes down off centre on the s/board side, how does that work going about?

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Before I had any experience at all is when I was smitten with instant boats and hard-chined sharpie hull forms. Later, I kept trying to persevere with them because, after all, they are so quick and simple to build. Now, after 22 years of active boatbuilding experience, I am no longer in love. In fact, I feel sorta betrayed that I spent so much time and effort fruitlessly chasing down the wrong path.


    Gypsie, that staysail is a reaching sail set flying, and it would be struck and reset on every tack just like the mule on a ketch. The gaff foresail is the working sail.
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  37. #37

    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I like it.
    What i thought was a main fore stay sail, but the tack comes down off centre on the s/board side, how does that work going about?
    The truth is that I am not sure I worked out the 3D isometric correctly. All I had to go with was a few seriously reduced reprints of excerpts from the plans published in the Messing About in Boats magazine. I made a guess that the tack of that staysail pulled out to starboard because when I was working out the geometry of the sails in CAD that such a rigging gave a better set to the sail relative to the mainsail. I suppose you could have the tack of the sail on a simple traveler to shift it to port upon tacking. The plans I could read were too blurred and incomplete to model that level of detail, so I did an educated guess. (and that guess might be wrong, so I am open to better ideas.)

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Boys, let's end the squabbling. We've all got our own tastes, opinions, and predjudices, and they are based on our own needs, expectations, knowledge, and experiences. And also in no small part by the waters in which we boat.

    The simple flat bottomed boats that Phil Bolger devised simplified building methods for, ARE based on traditional working boats. They have a long history, going back to the first availability of sawn lumber in just about all areas of the world. Bolger did not invent them, he just adapted them to commonly available materials.

    Here along the East coast (and on our inland waterways), where many of the working fisheries were in quite protected waters, simple flat bottomed boats were the overwhelmingly predominant type of boat used. That was because they were the easiest and most economical type to build and use. They existed side by side with other boats of more sophisticated hull form that were used where the water was less protected or the intended use otherwise dictated.

    Every boat design is a compromise. Every aspect is a trade-off against another aspect. No boat is perfect, or even good, for all possible uses.

    No one knew this better than Bolger. Part of his genius was in maximizing the trade-offs in the directions of the desires of his client, but in my reading of him he was always honest about the downside of every compromise made. Sometimes he experimented, but again he made clear that he was doing so and was the first to admit when an idea was a failure.

    We throw the word performance around a lot without defining the criteria by which we are going to measure it. If the design goal is a cruising boat that will go in water 3 feet deep, and sit upright on the bottom when the tide runs out, then a boat with a deep fin keel is a complete failure for the use, no matter that it can eat its way to windward like a witch.

    Leeboards have been around a long, long time. They are very traditional. They obviously work. They are equally obviously a compromise. Bolger did not invent them. He's not even the only designer to use them. Pete Culler liked them, as he also liked simple, flat bottomed boats. L. F. Herreshoff wrote elegantly in praise of them. The Atkin's and Chapelle were known to use them. Bolger used them because they were a solution to the problem of how to get a decent amount of unobstructed space in a shallow cruising boat, or to easily and cheaply give a rowing boat some casual sailing ability. He wasn't the first to do so. He won't be the last.

    James doesn't like them. For his waters and intended use, and based on his experience, they are not acceptable. I've read his posts about his trips and his boats, and I think he is a superb small boat seaman, and judging from the photos he has excellent taste in boats, women and dogs I give his opinions great weight. Were I to sail in similar waters I would want a boat much like his Rowan.

    But many of us have different priorities, wants, waters, and needs. So let's keep this in mind, and realize that there is a place for every kind of boat. We don't have to like them all, but let's be honest and recognize that the boat we hate may just be the perfect one for someone else.

    Bob

  39. #39

    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by dredbob View Post
    The simple flat bottomed boats that Phil Bolger devised simplified building methods for, ARE based on traditional working boats.
    I enjoy thinking and talking about Phil Bolger. It is true that he was designing boats drawing from his intensive research of traditional boats. I don't know of many Bolger designs which are accurately called flat bottomed. I suspect you are thinking of the "Instant Boat" class of boats? All of those have significant rocker in the bottoms, at a rule of thumb (for displacement boats) he tended to try to have the bottom curvature equal the side curvature. They have a 'flatness' only if you can call bent plywood "flat". See the design 501 at the top of this discussion thread, it has very deep curvature, and he carries the 'equal curvature sides:bottom' to an extreme which necessitates a bow transom (at 35ft) instead of a stem which would have made the boat 40ft+ on that curvature.

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Dredbob, I think you are right. To each cat his own rat.
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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    I enjoy thinking and talking about Phil Bolger. It is true that he was designing boats drawing from his intensive research of traditional boats. I don't know of many Bolger designs which are accurately called flat bottomed. I suspect you are thinking of the "Instant Boat" class of boats? All of those have significant rocker in the bottoms, at a rule of thumb (for displacement boats) he tended to try to have the bottom curvature equal the side curvature. They have a 'flatness' only if you can call bent plywood "flat". See the design 501 at the top of this discussion thread, it has very deep curvature, and he carries the 'equal curvature sides:bottom' to an extreme which necessitates a bow transom (at 35ft) instead of a stem which would have made the boat 40ft+ on that curvature.
    Bruce,

    I also enjoy studying Phil's designs, along with those of many other designers, and also the traditional working boats that evolved over time.

    It is commonly understood that "flat bottomed" refers to the athwartships profile, not the longitudinal, so the ordinary flat bottomed boat almost always incorporates rocker. This is the sense in which I am using it and in which almost all writers on design and construction use it. So I am talking about sharpies, skiffs, garveys, batteaus, scows, and the myriad of other traditional flat bottomed types that are and were in use around the world.

    By the way, thanks for doing all of these great 3D models. I have spent a lot of time viewing them and have enjoyed them very much.

    Bob

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    I have to wonder though, although this type of scow gives you premium deck space, down below I wonder if you have standing room? Especially compared to some other designs with similar length.

    Maybe not as much an issue on design #501 with its significant freeboard, but I am thinking about the scow schooner from BWAOM as well. The concept of scows for living aboard seems like a great idea in theory, but does this type of flat bottomed boat really have much interior space?
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

  43. #43

    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    I have to wonder though, although this type of scow gives you premium deck space, down below I wonder if you have standing room? ... but does this type of flat bottomed boat really have much interior space?
    By my calculation, there is 220 square feet of interior living space with most of it having 6'3" headroom. Heck in the city where I live there are 220sf apartments that rent for $1,500/month!

  44. #44

    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by dredbob View Post
    Bruce,

    It is commonly understood that "flat bottomed" refers to the athwartships profile, not the longitudinal, so the ordinary flat bottomed boat almost always incorporates rocker.
    Got it, still it is a terminology that doesn't make sense to me. Especially when you look at 3D isometrics of these so called "flat bottoms". Look again at design 501 at the top of the thread. That hull bottom is better described as 'pot belly', roughly the opposite of 'flat'.

    Indeed, in several Bolger essays on sharpies, he describes and abhors the hydrodynamic properties of flat bottomed boats like flat iron skiffs, etc..

    The big distinction is hard chine versus rounded chine.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    I have to wonder though, although this type of scow gives you premium deck space, down below I wonder if you have standing room? Especially compared to some other designs with similar length.

    Maybe not as much an issue on design #501 with its significant freeboard, but I am thinking about the scow schooner from BWAOM as well. The concept of scows for living aboard seems like a great idea in theory, but does this type of flat bottomed boat really have much interior space?
    Peter,

    Using the man at the helm (in the BWAOM scow schooner) as a guide, it looks to me as if there would not quite be full standing room in that aft cabin. But there would be room to move just bent over a little, and given room to stand in the hatch, in practice it would be quite comfortable moving about, and the sitting room would be luxurious. In general, once a scow gets up around 32-35 feet in length, it shouldn't be difficult to get full head room in some part of it. It used to be said (by Chapelle, among others) that in a sharpie type hull you had to go up to 45 feet in length before you could get full headroom. But this was back when there was commonly far less freeboard and cabin trunk heights were much lower than our modern eyes are used to.

    The design 501 scow in this thread, would easily have full headroom everywhere under the raised deck, which would give it far more interior space than more conventional scows (Culler's and Garden's for instance) with 10 more feet of length. The price paid, of course, is the loss of some good working deck space, and the unconventional, non-traditional aesthetics, though I think this could be somewhat mitigated by the right detailing.

    The question of what sort of room is needed for living aboard, though, has to be answered by each person. But I think it's fair to say that almost any large scow will offer the potential for quite good live-aboard arrangements, just due to the greater space available for storage.

    Bob

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    Got it, still it is a terminology that doesn't make sense to me. Especially when you look at 3D isometrics of these so called "flat bottoms". Look again at design 501 at the top of the thread. That hull bottom is better described as 'pot belly', roughly the opposite of 'flat'.

    Indeed, in several Bolger essays on sharpies, he describes and abhors the hydrodynamic properties of flat bottomed boats like flat iron skiffs, etc..

    The big distinction is hard chine versus rounded chine.
    Bruce,

    It's just convention, and there actually are a few truely dead-flat in every direction types in existance, but they are so rare that when one is talking about one of them, they will be sure to make the distinction clear. But in the ordinary discourse of boat design, when we say flat-bottom, or v-bottom, or round-bottom, we are just talking about that view from ahead or behind.

    You are quite right to point to the nature of the chine. I wonder what is the minimum radius needed to give the benefits of the rounded chine? With epoxy glue and cloth sheathing, there is almost always some rounding over, just to get the cloth to lay fair.

    Bob

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    I don't know, but that may be the design boat that Phil lived and worked in for many years at Montgomery's boatyard in Gloucester, sitting on the mud and going afloat twice a day. Good accommodations.

  48. #48

    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by dredbob View Post
    Bruce,
    You are quite right to point to the nature of the chine. I wonder what is the minimum radius needed to give the benefits of the rounded chine? Bob
    There are potentially two distinct benefits of a rounded chine that I see. The first is that for a given amount of displacement, a rounded hull has less wetted surface area friction than a squarish hull. Also, less total hull mass. This matters most with rowboats and sailboats, because every bit of drive power matters. (I can attest personally, after switching from a hard chine rowboat to a rounded one (seen in my avatar), the wetted area difference is very noticeable.

    The other has to do with differential turbulence. As the water flows past the bottom and past the sides, if the curvature of the side does not equal the curvature of the bottom, there can be a buildup of negative pressure sucking turbulent water across the hard chine causing drag and other performance issues. Round hulls don't have a similar problem.

  49. #49

    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Thad View Post
    boat that Phil lived and worked in for many years at Montgomery's boatyard in Gloucester,
    The Bolger live-a-board at Mongomery's Boatyard was his leeboarder design Resolution. Here are two photos of her which I took during the Bolger Memorial weekend held in 2009.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/tags/resolution/

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    Default Re: Phil Bolger's design #501, Live-a-board Scow Schooner

    Thanks Bruce.

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