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Thread: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

  1. #51
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    Bump, in order to reply to the Cetol thread in Resources, in which I maintain that good results can be had using the house-grade cetol as a wood covering.

  2. #52
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    Dave, your photos of Drake are the best arguement for Cetol I've ever seen...

    Alan

  3. #53
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    Here's a photo sent to me by Pierre Charbonneau, the 2nd owner of my ketch. It's 24 years ago, and she's all dressed and being used for a movie (title unknown).

    OOps. What gives? What a cumbersome way to post a photo. It didn't work. And what's with this 39kb size limit?

    Once again, posting photos on the Internet is far, far harder than building a boat.

    More research required....

  4. #54
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    OK, after getting advice from folks over in Misc -- Boats, I'll try again....

    Last edited by Dave Hadfield; 03-15-2008 at 11:18 AM.

  5. #55
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    Bump. I want to show Drake to the crew of Marguerite, whom I took flying recently.

  6. #56
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    Bump, to show a photo of the stove installation -- very nice, the other night, at 28F!

  7. #57
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    Thanks Dave. And thanks also for the stuff on your website 'round this - very interesting.

    t.
    "It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it." - Oscar Wilde

  8. #58
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    Yes, nice to see this thread resurface.

  9. #59
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    Bump, once again, to show a friend what works well in a ketch.

  10. #60
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    Wow! What a lovely boat with a sweet sweeping sheer line.
    I am reminded of Charles D. Mower designs.
    JG

  11. #61
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    A friend went by Drake last fall from a cruise boat, and from her upper deck got a shot or two of Drake at her mooring.

    I quite liked being at a mooring. This was my first year of it. I didn't mind the lack of electricity at all, and using the dinghy was seldom much of an inconvenience -- just once when I left without my cellphone, which I realized 5 minutes down the road. It's a good dinghy, 10 ft, of my own design, which rows well.

    I love the privacy. It's not as good as being at anchor, but not far off. I've never been much for dock-life.

    Sure made single-handing easier. Each time I left I attached a thick, 30 ft, floating line (3/4" yellow polypro with sections of pool noodle threaded on) to the buoy, which when I returned made hooking-on simplicity itself. I used chain over the bowsprit to hold her permanently, as you can see (I hope). To protect the edge of the oaken bowsprit, I made a chafe-guard from 2" copper water pipe, screwed in place. And then used a small loop of chain to keep it centered on the guard.

    No problems -- no theft, only 1 minor ding (incident unknown), and she handled 50 kt winds several times, during which the chop in the harbour can get to 2 ft.

    When the yard manager saw how much I liked it, he put out 4 more moorings -- hadn't had much demand in the past, but apparently the sight of Drake out there generated numerous inquiries.

    Last edited by Dave Hadfield; 03-15-2008 at 11:21 AM.

  12. #62

    Default A fine boat!

    Hi Dave,

    What a fantastic vessel! Wonderful photographs and information. Its great to get an insight into the history of this boat and to see that she has been well cared for and respected.
    Congratulations and best wishes, Stewart

  13. #63
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    Better and better. Thank you, Dave, and those who have provided photos and stories.

  14. #64
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    Hi, Dave

    Beautiful boat! I am very jealous.

    I have some questions for you concerning a similar boat that I'm planning to build, an expanded version of Munroe's "Egret", "Snowy Egret", 39.5', Reuel Parker-designed. You mentioned sailing "Drake" on Lake Superior; I intend using my boat on Lake Erie and the upper lakes, but also in the Inside Passage of B.C. and Alaska, and also occasionally for short trips in the Gulf of Alaska, Cook Inlet and Prince Albert Sound. I think that Lake Superior has some characterstics in common with these waters, i.e., sudden weather changes, large waves, etc. So I (finally) come to my questions: how did your boat handle in Superior? Did you think it safe? Do you think that the "Snowy Egret" is a good choice for her intended use?

    Reuel Parker originally designed her for a client in B.C., to sail around the San Juan Islands, so she's being used in at least some of the waters in which I intend to use her.

    Your photo of "Drake" at her mooring is also very instructive. I'm presenty launching and recovering my 20' sharpie on a launch ramp over a 5' seawall into shallow water, which can be a pain. I have deeper water, 3' to 4' about 350' or so out, and have been considering making a mooring there. The nice thing is that in summer I could wade out to the boat; the downside is that others also could. Oh, well...

    Thanks for any advice that you can give me.

  15. #65
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    Thanks for the comments!

    Erie, Drake would be better for heavy waters if she was about a foot, maybe 16", wider. She'd have a little more power to carry sail then.

    In Superior (or Alaska I imagine), there sometimes aren't that many harbours, and if you can't make a harbour by sunset, you've got to head offshore and spend a night "at sea". Out there, you've got to be able to deal with 40 kts of wind -- it happens. If it's on-shore, you've got to be able to sail your way off. That takes a hull which must support enough sail to drive upwind against the wind and sea. Having the long keel allows heaving-to, as well.

    Drake can do this against 25 kts, but probably not 40. If the boat lacks the power to do this, then the sailing plan must be adjusted to stay out of those situations, using careful judgement and not trusting forecasts.

    I do like the centerboard. Even though she still draws 40", I can usually find a spot in a crowded anchorage even if I arrive late. Makes a huge difference for anchoring or hiding from storms.

    For regular cruising of colder, wilderness waters, I'd have a permanent wood-burning stove of some kind, and a dodger.

  16. #66
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    I like the Snowy Egret. http://www.parker-marine.com/sh39page.html

    I'd prefer a shallow, 3/4 length keel. I don't see the external box-keel he mentions in the plans. Where is it? A shallow keel aids in heaving-to and generally in manners under sail. Drake self-steers. Mighty nice!

    That companionway dodger could be extended a bit, then you could steer from under it using a simple tiller-line around the cockpit on 4 blocks.

    Fine-looking boat, though. It would turn my crank....

  17. #67
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    Hi, Dave

    Thanks for the thoughtful advice. The "Snowy Egret" design appeals because of its relatively simple and inexpensive construction, but mostly because of the well-established and documented seaworthyness of the "Egrets" generally.

    I haven't seen the plans yet, so I can't say about the outside keel. I've been in touch with the designer and will be getting the study plan from him shortly. If the outside keel is not shown, I'll be sure to ask him about it. From what you said about clawing off a lee shore, it would seem to be quite necessary.

    If you're ever in the Monroe, Michigan area, either sailing or otherwise, let me know; my phone number is 734-289-4424. We live on the Lake Erie shore and I'd love to be able to tell you that you could sail right up to our place, but the water's way too shallow. Although a scant quarter of a mile away is Brest Bay Marina...

    By the way, I've built another of Reuel Parker designs, the 20' Maryland Crabbing Skiff. For various reasons I wasn't able to get in any real sailing last year, but I intend to remedy that this year.

  18. #68
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    Well you're not too far away from where I spent all my boyhood summers: Stag Island, in the St. Clair River, opposite St. Mary's Michigan. We still have a cottage there. If you're ever up that way let me know. I don't keep Drake there, but we have a 14 ft plywood sailboat that does very well and is lots of fun to sail.

    DAVE

  19. #69
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    Bump, to show a number of people at my boatyard, Dutchman's Cove, Penetanguishene, Ontario, information about Drake -- which has just launched! Successfully, too, though a month late.

    It took up faster than I thought, though I had preswelled the centerboard trunk and the bottom 4 planks. In 36 hours, the bilge pump comes on once an hour. At first-splash, it was Niagara Falls.

  20. #70
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    David, I may have a clue for you as to the designer of your boat: William Roue, of Bluenose fame. If you look at page 119 of the latest issue of WoodenBoat, in the top left hand corner you will see a photo of a 54’ schooner designed by Roue advertised for sale. The hull shape and cabin style are remarkably similar to Drake. I would say that both boats stem from the same pen.

    I googled Roue and came up with this URL http://www.joelro.com/wjr/DesignPortfolio.html
    It lists a ketch, design #112, for a client named L.M. Waloon. LOA 41’ 7” LWL 35’. Unfortunately, no other dimensions or details are given, but I think it would be worth pursuing. They may still have the original plans I also checked the Kingman Brokerage site, but the schooner was not listed. An e-mail inquiry to them might turn something up too.

    Good hunting,
    Don

  21. #71
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    Thanks, Don. Yes, she does look similar. https://proto2.yachtworld.com/privat...&slim=pp267098&

    But her hull draws 6 ft, so it may just be a case of "convergent evolution".

    Wouldn't I just love to be able to say she was designed by William Roue?!!!

  22. #72
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    With 6’-2” headroom and such large cabins on a 36' LWL, I’m willing to bet this schooner was originally a centreboarder. A boat this big with 6’ draft would not require such high cabin tops. But that aside, designers often rework similar designs for different clients. I’m not suggesting that this schooner and your ketch share the same hull. Rather, I think the styling is significantly similar and suggests that Roue could possibly be Drakes designer. Design #112 fits the dimensions of your boat remarkably closely. One of your B&W photos above shows the original boat, sans boomkin, and with a short bowsprit. It would certainly suggest a 41’-7” LOA on a 35’ LWL.

    Perhaps MMD or some of our fellow Nova Scotians might know of this schooner and her builder and be able to shed some light on ketch design #112 as well.

    Excerpted from Kingman website:

    Designed by William Roue and built by Warren Robar in Novia Scotia (1964), WINTERWOOD (ex-Poseidon II & ex-Boreas) has a wonderful history. She was purchased by her extremely knowledgable current owner's in 1983 in dire need of retrofitting, and was re-launched in 1986 after a major re-building and renovation. Over the past 18 years WINTERWOOD has received additional renovation, upgrading, outfitting, and normal yearly maintenance. She is a fast schooner that is quite at home on the classic racing course, having been a two-time great lakes schooner champion, a three time class B winner in the Great Chesapeake Bay Schooner Race, and a winner of the Glouchester Schooner races.



    Image won't load for some reason. I was hoping to compare it to this photo of Drake. Note the bow profile in particular and the positioning of the portholes high up near the roof of the cabin in both boats.


  23. #73
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    Great Chesapeake Bay Schooner Race: History/results

    http://www.schoonerrace.org/longhistory.htm

  24. #74
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    Bump, to illustrate Cetol 2,3 Plus in use on a boat (that's the house grade stuff) after 7 years, usually with 1 coat a year maintenance.

  25. #75
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    Greetings Mr.Hadfield,

    Forgive this intrusion on your thread, perhaps you recall I had mentioned, a year or two ago, recalling your boat from my past?
    Out of simple curiosity, and not meaning to pry, but did you manage to arrange a sail together with Pierre Charbonneau?
    Fresh pictures and a story of that encounter would be most appreciated and rather fitting considering the "archeological"nature of this thread.
    Mind you, I would certainly understand and respect your decision not to relate a story,should you consider it too personal or if,unfortunately, a sail together never managed to occur.
    Thank you for bumping this thread into view,once again and happy haul-out!

  26. #76
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    M. Lestat,

    For some reason I missed your last post until just now. Sorry. No, I wasn't able to get together for a sail with M. Charbonneau due to health issues on his part.

    However, a big bundle arrived in the mail one day that turned out to be a genoa! Rather a nice surprise! It fits reasonably well, and is intermediate between the genoa I have now (too big anyway) and the working jib, so it gets used!

    I have corresponded with his daughter, and we will arrange a sail as soon as we can work out a common time. Looking forward to that.

    I was just over the boatyard yesterday (in an Aeronca Champ, acutally) and noticed my tarp needs adjustment. I'll drive up there tomorrow.

    Dave

  27. #77
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Drat! All those photos link to the now-defunct Imagestation. I did save them, in Photobucket. I guess I should re-establish the new links...

    A fellow recently asked me about the squaresail, and I see another wondering about tabernacles.

    I'll work away at it.

    Dave

  28. #78
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Done!

    I've gotta take more under-sail photos this year...

    Dave

  29. #79
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Bump.

    I'm on a friend's yacht in the bahamas, and wanted to show some photos of my own boat.

    Dave

  30. #80
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    I'm sitting on my boat at Waiheke island,Hauraki gulf, NZ.
    ketchketchketchketch

  31. #81
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Hi John,

    I missed your reply back in April! (Ketch as ketch can!) You should have seen my friend's yacht -- a 195ft steel ex-oceangoing tug with a crew of 15, and a Stuart Knockabout on deck for daysailing! Great time sailing and diving, sharks and all...

    Right now we're getting ready for our Summer Voyage in Drake. We aren't too ambitious this year, but we should get 2 un-interrupted weeks aboard, which is a life-altering change in pace.

    Anyone sailing in Georgian Bay in the middle of August? Rendezvous? (Anywhere between Penetanguishene and Kilarney. No fixed plan yet!)

    Dave

  32. #82
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Compulsory photo essay required about your cruise Dave.
    I'm just about to head down to the harbour to see whats been happening. Weather bomb overnight. 86 knots I saw reported as a gust and 70 reported as constant for quite a while.

  33. #83
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch



    Well John B, we sure anchored in some lovely places. This is in Shawanaga Inlet, a favourite of ours.

  34. #84
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch


  35. #85
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    A group of innocent rain showers merged and swelled and grew, swallowing each other, until they formed a massive cumulonimbus that flattened Parry Sound one afternoon. We only caught the edge of it, but it was enough to make me set extra anchors and rig the Sentinel on the anchor line.




  36. #86
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    I thought I'd document some boat details.

    Here's the Swim Stage. It's a wonderful design, and I've never seen another like it. Snap-on, snap-off.

    Since Drake has an overhanging stern, the swim stage is our only way to get back on aboard from the water. It's a wide mahogany plank. Underneath it are 2 stainless steel channels, into which slide the spacers that hold it our from the hull -- so it's a take-apart. These spacers are cushioned with 1 1/2" plastic pipe around the ends against the soft cypress hull planks. The pool-noodle fender bits are not usually on it, but I was using the stage to rig my sailing dinghy that day.

    It's rigged right at water level.

    Last edited by Dave Hadfield; 10-08-2008 at 11:34 PM.

  37. #87
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Halyard hooks.

    These work very well. They don't chafe the sails and keep all my lines off the cetoled masts.

    They're made in my shop from beaten copper. Method: I slide a 4" piece of copper 1/4" tubing inside a 4" piece of 3/8" tubing, and then pound them flat with a hammer. Then I bend, grind, and drill screw holes, after which I polish and clear-coat.

    Using copper tubing produces smooth, rounded edges.

    Also, being copper, it's poisonous, and rot doesn't occur behind the fitting.




  38. #88
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    More beaten copper: lazyjacks; very useful on a ketch, otherwise you tend to drop the mizzen, and sometimes the boom, on the helmsman's head.



    And for the fitting to take the line around the boom, to revent chafe, again I used simple copper pipe or tubing (in this case both), beaten flat and polished. These pieces never got the clear-coat, and thus they take a patina which I don't mind at all.

    I don't like the plastic hooks. As they break I replace them with... hooks made from beaten copper!


  39. #89
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Wooden blocks. I love them. They reek with tradition, work adequately for the low tensions of Drake's multi-sail rig, and are pleasant to make in the off-season.

    Three out of the 4 blocks on my mainsheet are wooden. As you can see the rig allows some mechanical advantage, but not a lot is required -- when I bought the boat the mainsheet was rigged as simply as a dinghy.



    This block is carved from a single piece of ash -- made on a drill press for accuracy of axle-hole and the morticed slot. The grommet is made from Buff Polyester -- a wonderful rope! (So is the sheet.) The thimble is made from copper, a 3/4" pipe-joiner.



    The copper thimble is made using the 3-hammer technique. (A ball-peen hammer is set in a vise, ball side up. The pipe-join is set on it and heated with a torch. The next hammer is laid on top of it, ball-side against the copper. And then that hammer is tapped with a third one. This works the flare into the sides of the thimble. (This block is stropped with manila, tarred using a stockholm-tar boat-sauce to add longevity. the seizing is tarred nylon sein twine -- wonderfully handy stuff on a boat, I have 3 rolls of different sized twine on board.)

    Last edited by Dave Hadfield; 10-08-2008 at 11:53 PM.

  40. #90
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    More wooden blocks... these are mizzen-outhaul blocks. They are carved from cherry. Remarkably, they have no coating or finish on them, other than I boiled them in linseed oil when I made them. The sheave too, which is turned from Jotoba. I just dropped them in a paint-can of linseed oil, boiled them for about 4 hours on the sood stove, and they've needed nothing ever since.

    I believe boiling the sheave in oil also adds long-term lubrication. These sheaves are on simple pin-axles, yet they roll reasonably well.





    These blocks are glued-up, obviously. It's a lot more work, and from my experience, not really worth the trouble. Here they're in use as a mainsail outhaul tackle.


  41. #91
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Thanks! Where'd ya go?

  42. #92
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Along the E coast of Georgian Bay. It's called the 30,000 Islands, but should really be called the 100,000 reefs.

    We never got past Pointe au Baril, not being in any rush, and having contrary winds all the way.

    But we had no schedule, so why sweat it? Each day was great!

    Dave

  43. #93
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    We got as far as Collins Inlet,going the other direction.
    We had several bad rain days and there were some pretty decent storms.
    R
    "Now Ron,don't you do anything stupid!" - Grandma B.

  44. #94
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Hi Ron. Too bad we never crossed tracks.

    Yes, it was a wet year. This morning the water level is still .17 meters above chart datum -- a welcome trend.

    More photos....

    The dinghy. This is a 10 pram I designed and built. It's damn-near perfect for the job I need her to do: function as a lifeboat, take me to shore and back with a load (always in trim!), row sweetly solo, tow dry, tow easily, not cost much, and weigh under 80 lbs.




    The key is her underbody, which features deadrise at the front transom, merging to flat-bottomed at the stern. This makes her quiet at anchor and alongside, yet she tows so easily I can pull the towline slack at 5 kts with only finger and thumb. She never gets wet unless it rains. Lots of rocker in the bottom. Good sailor, too, with a leg-o-mutton spritsail and a clip-on leeboard.




    Ah, these photos are poor. In real life she doesn't look that stodgy.

  45. #95
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Very difficult vessel to steer -- look at the tension on the helmsman's face, and the physical pressure on her left foot.


  46. #96
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Looks warm still, looks good, looks ..... hell ,I want to be there.
    Fascinating cruising ground you have there Dave , as I've no doubt said before.
    I'll be up in the bay of islands next week, no doubt arrive in the o'dark sometime ( race) but I'm really hanging out for a cruise .

  47. #97
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

  48. #98
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Thanks, John. Yeah, we've got a bit of summer back. The wind goes back to NW, from the Arctic, in a day or 2. Have a great race!

    And Boatbuddha, Robin says thanks for the compliment! And that the boat is beautiful too.

    Dave

  49. #99
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    This is the essence of why I joined this forum. That said, if I had your boat (or a salt-water equivalent) I'd be living on it in the Gulf of Mexico. Your boat is a beauty.

    My mother and grandfather (and uncles and aunts) live in Midland/Penetang. I never really thought of it as a boating kind of area, but I guess it is isn't it. Doesn't Georgian Bay freeze in the winter?

  50. #100
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    Default Re: Drake -- 40' LOD Munroe-influenced ketch

    Georgian Bay hasn't frozen over for a while.
    IIRC Lake Huron hasn't frozen since the early-mid '90s.
    R
    "Now Ron,don't you do anything stupid!" - Grandma B.

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