Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

[MoMan]

Sorry we weren't around to answer questions, Mike. We were just having too much fun at the WoodenBoat Show this past weekend, don'tcha know.

Lucky! Looks like I'll be enjoying the leftovers starting next weekend.

Thinkin' Juice can lead to problems.

Roger that! I promise to be responsible. Besides, Ms. Marples and Stanley prefer not to be fondled by a less-than-steady hand.

[MoMan]

[MoMan]

A three-day weekend with few obligations makes for some good canoe-building progress, so lots to report.

First off, I continued with my tapering-planks-to-fix-previous-f-ups theory, and it appears to my eyes that my theory sort of held up. One little flaw in my theory was my assumption that by reducing the widths of a few planks, I could return to full-width planks. Nope. Once I started down that path, I had to taper every remaining plank, or they just wouldn’t fit, width-wise. Fortunately, cedar is very soft, and my plane, relatively sharp. ( I eventually ended up nicking my left middle fingernail with the plane iron--no blood, but it's still tender). The work proceeded accordingly.

I must say, I was very pleased with the results, judging by the way my bilge accent strip lined up:



My next challenge was to adapt to the narrowing width. My previous bike-tire-clamp method was getting limited, because I was running out of room to maneuver in. It was time to experiment. I pulled out all the stops.



Foam noodles, inverted spring clamps, barbells, gravity, discarded rubber bands from braces, you name it!



... to be continued

[MoMan]

Note that I am protecting the more delicate coves with a little strip of scrap.



I eventually went with simplicity: the inverted spring clamps gave me just the amount of tension I needed to hold the strips in place.

Here's a close up of the accent strip:

I know it's not perfect, but for a virgin, I think it ain't bad!

[Canoez]

Nothing to be ashamed of there! Loogs good and the joints are tight. Pat yourself on the back and find some thinkin' juice.

[MoMan]

Yeah, it sorta worked, but I found that inversed spring clamps worked better.

[MoMan]

[Terry Haines]

I thought they were calipers for measuring. Reminded me of something I made, consisted of a bunch of short, pointed battens with long slots that were held together with a bolt and wingnut through the slots; I planned to use it to take off the stem shape from a 12-plank S&G ply hull. The stems would have been added after gluing up but the boat never got built, so I don't know if it would have worked; seemed a good idea at the time . . .

[P.L.Lenihan]

Oh man, ya didn't even give us a chance to guess?! What kinna thing is that to do?! The worst part, I knew what is was for!!Next time give us a chance willya and,and,and .....offer up a prize for the correct answer


Looking very, very, good Mike and your tapering of the bottom strips looks sweet! That is going to be one pretty hull once she is all glassed and shinny!!


Cheers!


Peter

[MoMan]

Oh man, ya didn't even give us a chance to guess?! What kinna thing is that to do?! The worst part, I knew what is was for!!Next time give us a chance willya and,and,and .....offer up a prize for the correct answer

You see--I still have so much to learn from the Masters here on the forum!! Like a little kid who spills the beans on the surprise party, I'm just too excited to wait for the guesses to trickle in.

But you're right--if I am to solicit guesses, I need to come up with an appropriate reward system. And as much as I'd love to ship samples of my beloved Texas Thinkin' Juice to points around the globe, I suspect international postal employees would scuttle my plans in a hurry.

I'll get back to you after I do some more Thinkin'.

[Sailor]

Sounds like you need to use more thinking juice to decide what to give.

[MoMan]

Well folks, I'm super excited for a couple of reasons. First, with planking pretty much completed, I can look forward to a whole new set of issues to worry over. First on my list is attaching the stems.

But even more exciting than that, tomorrow night, my wife and I fly out to the northeast to celebrate our 3rd anniversary (we've actually been in a relationship since 1993) and have plans to meet up with a couple of other forum members. We will also be visiting Concord, MA, Mystic seaport, Block Island, some Boston action and perhaps Providence, R.I. Can't wait!!

--Mike

[Fitz]

Anyone else in the REGION that wants to meet MoMan and float a boat on the Concord/Sudbury/Assabet Rivers, mid-morning, Friday, 8 July drop me a PM. We are gonna MessAbout or something.

[MoMan]

I just had a very productive and gratifying weekend in the garage. But more on that later …

Last weekend, my wife and I celebrated our anniversary with a trip to New England. With one exception, it was a fantastic trip.



Great. I'm stuck with a stowaway. On my anniversary.

But things did improve quickly. Joey and I landed in Boston late Thursday night, picked up a rental car and drove to Lexington to our hotel. It was a bit rainy--a welcome change from Houston's current hot, windy drought.

Friday morning, we got up and ate breakfast in Concord, then met up with Fitz who lives in a national historic house. As a bonus, Canoez drove in to join us. After a brief tour of Fitz's canoe museum/garage ( I think we counted 14 canoes in total on the property--no joke), we strapped some vessels on the tops of the cars and took off for a short paddle down the local river .





That's Canoez' "beater" canoe on the left--a wee lassie. Still magnitudes finer than my prospector will ever be!!

We floated directly under the Old North Bridge on the (I think) Concord River, site of The Shot Heard 'Round the World. The day was overcast, cool and calm.

Please don't tell Canoez, but I scammed him for a ton of free newbie boat-building advice!

[MoMan]

Unfortunately, Fitz didn't have a proper PFD for Curly, so he had to stay behind in the room.



He was still stewing when we got home that afternoon ...

"How was your day, Curly?"

[MoMan]

We spent Saturday at Mystic Seaport. My wife planned this just for my benefit. She was expecting something about as fun as being dragged through the tool aisle at Home Depot. Instead, she was instantly entranced by the whole set up. A beautiful, cool and breezy summer day didn't hurt things either. We were both in love with the whole experience and stayed until nearly closing. Then we came back that evening for a nice meal at Latitude 41 (restaurant) and watched an interesting wedding party next door--appropriate enough for our anniversary vacation. According to our wait staff, there is pretty much one or two weddings every night on the grounds there.

[MoMan]

OK, so back to a little boat building. As I mentioned, I got some good advice from Canoez regarding the current state of my project. Just before leaving Houston for vacay, I finished planking and started prepping for the next step: attaching the outer stems. The laminated stems had been epoxied months ago and set aside. As I dry fitted them, there were some minimal gaps between inner and outer stems: about 3/64ths of an inch. Nothing that some dookie schmutz can't handle. My bigger concerns were 1), the point where the end of the stem meets the planking at the bilge:


That would require a scrap of wood to fill that gap, which is going to look crappy. and 2) During the lengthy storage, one of the stems got a little damaged:


3) I really wasn't happy about the cherry pieces I had picked out earlier. One of the pieces had a lighter streak, making for an unattractive contrast.

So in talking w/ Canoez, we both agreed that machining new cherry strips for laminating would be in my best interest. That's what I spent most of Saturday working on. This time, all the laminates came off the same piece of lumber, so the color is much more consistent. I steamed them and bent them onto the canoe, clamping them to dry for a couple of days before epoxying.

Then I got to a new milestone: Removing staples!!

[MoMan]

I also took advantage of a smart tip from Canoez. To make sure the new strips don't wander off track, I pre-drilled a hole to allow a thin finish nail to hold things in place:



Here is a wider view of the strips clamped in place to dry:

[P.L.Lenihan]

Pretty darned cool Mike!! It seems like only yesterday you were at the humming and hawwwwing stage and now, a beautiful canoe hull getting her remaining trim bits in order. I am only slightly envious, you understand, very slightly envious!


Can't wait 'till you turn her over and get the insides tricked out!

Cheers!


Peter

[floatingkiwi]

We spent Saturday at Mystic Seaport. My wife planned this just for my benefit. She was expecting something about as fun as being dragged through the tool aisle at Home Depot. Instead, she was instantly entranced by the whole set up. A beautiful, cool and breezy summer day didn't hurt things either. We were both in love with the whole experience and stayed until nearly closing. Then we came back that evening for a nice meal at Latitude 41 (restaurant) and watched an interesting wedding party next door--appropriate enough for our anniversary vacation. According to our wait staff, there is pretty much one or two weddings every night on the grounds there.

Isn't it great when they do something for our benefit and they end up diggin' it too. Makes ya feel like you were made for each other eh?...... Kinda.

[Canoez]

Please don't tell Canoez, but I scammed him for a ton of free newbie boat-building advice!

Oh really?!?!?!

()

What good is this place if we don't share?

Please note the small green decal on the rear starboard window of the blue Honda. There's a matching red one on the port side...

[MoMan]

It seems like only yesterday you were at the humming and hawwwwing stage and now, a beautiful canoe hull getting her remaining trim bits in order.

Not to worry Peter--There is lots more "humming and hawwwwing" ahead!

[MoMan]

Makes ya feel like you were made for each other eh?...... Kinda.

Yup--She's a keeper alright!

[MoMan]

Well, I've actually finished removing all the staples and started planing. Yup, I've deleted a consonant from my planking verb and moved on to a whole new step!! Exciting times, I tells ya!

I'm using my low angle Stanley block plane, and yes, I'm sharpening the iron frequently. One little issue I'm concerned about is tear-out. I'm seeing it more in the basswood/peruvian walnut accent pieces, but occasionally in the WR Cedar. I'm running the plane at about a 45-degree angle to the strips. So, will the tear-out get sanded out? Or will they get filled with epoxy?

[MoMan]

Whew!! That planing is a workout, even with a sharp plane iron. But the deed is pretty much done. Tonight, I finally got around to epoxying up one of the new outer stem laminations. I've been putting some extra thinkin' power into how I will tie the stem ends into the hull. It finally occurred to me that I will need to taper the end where it meets the bilge planking, then build up a little on the sides to feather into the hull. I was too filthy, sweaty and tired to take any pix tonight, but I plan to post some illustrative pix before I commit to a permanent attachment to the inner stems/plank ends.

--Mike

[JayInOz]

Learning a lot and looking forward to the next installment Mike- thanks JayInOz

[P.L.Lenihan]

Whew!! That planing is a workout, even with a sharp plane iron. --Mike

Had I known before hand that a sharp plane going through soft wood would have been such a workout Mike,I would have recommended first you break out some Texas Planing Juice,no more than 6 required for such a hull, then follow through with some Texas Muscle Juice once the task is over.Try to keep it under 6 also.Finally, close the deal with some Texas Feeling Juice,as you caress your freshly planed hull and admire her from various angles and different light settings.Needless to say,but ok to write;keep this last to just under 6 also otherwise you will need some Montreal Medicinal Herb to jump start yer hide.

Looking forward to the pictures!

Cheers!

Peter

[switters]

A three-day weekend with few obligations makes for some good canoe-building progress, so lots to report.


Foam noodles, inverted spring clamps, barbells, gravity, discarded rubber bands from braces, you name it!



... to be continued

I have the same gravity clamping system in my shop, the only benefit I have ever received from that 25lb item. Looking good.

[Canoez]

I'm using my low angle Stanley block plane, and yes, I'm sharpening the iron frequently. One little issue I'm concerned about is tear-out. I'm seeing it more in the basswood/peruvian walnut accent pieces, but occasionally in the WR Cedar. I'm running the plane at about a 45-degree angle to the strips. So, will the tear-out get sanded out? Or will they get filled with epoxy?

You will get some tear-out on the strips. There are a few approaches that you can take - the first one is to make sure that your plane is both sharp and the throat opening limited to avoid taking too much material. The next one is to try changing directions - approach from the other end of the boat - if you're planing upwards, plane downwards at an angle, etc.

Sometimes there is not alternative and you find yourself doing more harm than good fairing with the plane. At that point, the longboard is generally your friend. A nice coarse grit paper and you'll get the digs out. Pay attention that you're not working a small area and creating a depression in the hull - you're trying to fair it, remember?

You generally don't want to put filler in the tear-outs if you can avoid it at all - particularly if the tear-out is in your feature strip as it will not color match as well as you'd like.

[MoMan]

Let the epoxy internship begin!

I’ve been hemming’ and hawwwwin’ over my outer stems for some time now, and today was the day to sh!t or get off the pot. A little background on my error(s):

As I wanked and planked, I thought I was faithfully following the directions in the Canoe Bible. I cut the ends of the planks off where they met the outer face of the inner stems. This continued up the hull to the point where the inner stem ended. The result was that I ended up cutting the bilge plank ends short about 2 inches. Whereas the Bible says to cut/carve a mortise to fit the outer stems, I am left butting the stems ends up against the plank ends--just one of many mistakes already committed, and many more to come! In the grand scheme of things, this should be just another aesthetic shortcoming that only I will obsess over. Fortunately for me, there appears to be very few Woodenboat aficionados in the Houston area, so very few will probably notice.

Anyways, I did laminate up some new cherry outer stems and thought about the best ways to proceed attaching them for a couple of weeks. (Last weekend, my wife, me and some friends/family went up to the lake and did some wakeboarding. I shouldn’t attempt to imitate a 20-year-old-- I ended up wrenching my back, which put any garage-time out of the question for the week. I’m starting to feel normal today, so I am back at it. )

I did taper them down slightly, but only enough to match the width of the two protruding bilge-plank ends. My plan is, after shaping the stems down to size, I will cut some filler stock to fill the narrow voids on either side of the stem.

I started the morning prepping for the epoxy glue up. You’d be proud of me for doing a little thinking ahead of time! I mostly credit Canoez’ blog for the preparation tasks running through my head in the background. I figured out the clamping procedure, applied masking tape, got all the clamps in place and tested them out; got out all the accessories in advance (gloves, stir stick, brush, epoxy thickener, etc.). I was ready to GO! I even incorporated Mr. Tenner’s tip of hollowing out a wee epoxy channel to avoid starving the joint.



I started with a full pump of epoxy followed by a full pump of hardener. Mixed for at least 30 sec. and brushed the mixed, unthickened epoxy onto both the out stem surface and the innerstem/ plank ends. I dropped in some West system 404 into the remaining epoxy, brushed in on and set about affixing my bike-tube clamps. As I got everything in place and looked over the whole set up, I got concerned that I was seeing very little, if any, epoxy squeeze out. Crap! I know enough to know that that’s not right. So I disassembled the multiple clamps and looked the two surfaces over. It was obvious that I needed more epoxy. I was just a bit panicky--I pumped in the epoxy, pumped in the hardened and without thinking, dumped in some thickening agent before mixing. Nothing to do but mix it up anyway. I still had to add more thickener to it, but I know it’s best to mix first and thicken later. Lessen (hopefully) learned!

So I got it somewhere between mayo and peanut butter and started slathering on both surfaces, then started re-assembling clamps. In the mean time, my nitrile glove tore. No time to stop now! At any rate, I was much happier with the squeezeout this time, although it was looking a bit sloppy. I went back as the epoxy was just starting to set and removed the green masking tape. Now it is looking much better!



L8tr

--Mike

[MoMan]

Texas Planing Juice ... Texas Muscle Juice ... Texas Feeling Juice...

God heavens! I'm clearly under-juiced. Well, that is to be expected from a novice like me. I can only thank you for the advice.

[MoMan]

I feel bad--the kids are feeling a little neglected these days. Truth is, at 5:00 at night, when it’s 101F (ukin) degrees out and 150% humidity, I’m just not motivated to go outside to an uninsulated garage and do physical labor. In fact, mental labor is hard enough.

Today was Saturday, so I got the opportunity to spend some quality time in the garage before it got to the usual scorching temp.

First task: confront my previous f-ups. Number one: the outer stem versus the hull. Long after I trimmed my bilge planks down to match the inner stems, I discovered I had screwed myself over by short cutting the planks. As I went about attaching the outer stems, it became clear to me that I would need to invent an out-of-the-book solution.

WARNING

The following photos were taken from a crime scene.





Sensitive viewers and children may want to consider their tolerance for woodbutchery before proceeding.














According to my lawyers, you have been adequately warned.





It's not actually as bad as it initially looks. I left LOTS of excess wood to sand down.

This is how the stern end looked, after my butchery.


Yes, the big streak is a mis-directed plane mark. My bad. I still gotta a few little spots to fill with dookie-shmutz.

OK, yes, the hull is symmetrical. Normally, it wouldn't matter which is bow or stern. The arrows of my accent strip determined the direction!

[Fitz]

I suspect your dookie smutz (where the heck did that name come from? Yeah, it is an Industry Standard) or your thickened epoxy needs to be thicker. I always shoot for Peanut Butter, maybe even chunky - you should have seen what I did with it today!

Lookin' Good. Sorry about the Weather, or is that "Climate"?

[MoMan]

Listen Andy: Peter Lenihan can use an angle grinder to pick popcorn from his teeth. I’ve met Peter Lenihan. I’ve shaken Peter Lenihan’s lemony hands. Peter Lenihan is a friend of mine. But you, Andy, are no Peter Lenihan.

[MoMan]

[P.L.Lenihan]

I think I see the problem here Mike....you've still got the "safety shield" on your grinder and the silly handle! They work much better with the shield off and the handle removed.That way you just grab the bugger by the head,the way you would hold a baseball, and go for it.Nicely balanced too! But I must say, that looks like you've got some what, 35 or 45 weight paper Aluminium Oxide paper on her.WAY TOO HEAVY for your hull. 80 weight would be sweeter.

While I'm nit-picking, what is happening in that out-of-focused picture in the back ground? Looks like some one is getting roggered but good!




Cheers!



Peter


P.S. Tell Andy playing with swords is dangerous!!

[MoMan]

What we need is a different Tenner sanding technique. I call it the Ten Zen Sand Zone, or TZSZ. It's more of a state of mind than a process. Are you up for it?





So my first home made long board failed within a couple of minutes. I used some plastic scrap--I think 1/8" as the board. I had and old knob laying around, so I counter sunk the screw and attached it, but the screw pulled through after just a few strokes. So I switched gears and found some scrap aromatiic cedar, which already had its edges eased. I scuffed up the plastic and ran the new screws into the newly counterbored holes. I mixed up a bit o' epoxy, thickened it appropriately and slathered it on to the plastic and wood. Since I had a bit of leftover, I decided to try my hand at fillets. It went pretty well--better than I anticipated. I'll post some pix soon.

[MoMan]

I think I see the problem here Mike....you've still got the "safety shield" on your grinder and the silly handle! They work much better with the shield off and the handle removed.That way you just grab the bugger by the head,the way you would hold a baseball, and go for it.Nicely balanced too! But I must say, that looks like you've got some what, 35 or 45 weight paper Aluminium Oxide paper on her.WAY TOO HEAVY for your hull. 80 weight would be sweeter.

While I'm nit-picking, what is happening in that out-of-focused picture in the back ground? Looks like some one is getting roggered but good!

I think it's 60 grit if memory serves me right--but no worries--the angle grinder will not be touching the hull. I got out my 6" P.C. random orbit for that task. So far, I'm pleased with the results. As of last night, I'm almost done with the starboard side. I did use the grinder to take down my atrociously botched plastic surgery on the stems-meeting-hullplanks. It actually came out better than I expected. I do wish I had used cherry for the filler strips instead of WRC. Now I have a different grain direction. Oh well--this being my first attempt at a wooden vessel, idiot mistakes like this are inevitable. Perhaps when it's finished and ready for launch, I can establish a 50-foot minimum perimeter for anyone wanting to inspect it. Or, perhaps I will take it out and scuff up those areas on some rocks and concrete to disguise my shortcomings! All decisions to be made in due time.

The out-of-focus lass in the background is Gil Elvstrom's (sp?) Ms. August 2010, "Near Miss," a delightful redhead who accidentally sprays herself whilst turning on the sprinkler (among other things).

[MoMan]

Longboard construction:
4 1/4" X 25" plexiglass
aromatic cedar scraps for hand grips
thickened epoxy
wood screws
(little chain links not related!)




Fillets!

[MoMan]

I tightened the screws into their respective countersunk holes and let the epoxy set up for an hour or two, then applied some 80 grit PSA abrasive paper and went to town, seeking to arrive at the TZSZ. To my horror, a light gouge started appearing in the trail of the longboard! I knew immediately that one of the screw heads had poked its way through the paper. Fortunately, the weren't too deep and I was able to sand them out quickly after removing the offending screw. After a sweat-inducing workout of a couple of hours, I got really lazy and reached for the 6" R.O. to speed things up. I'm maintaining a light touch and I keep the machine moving, checking often for low spots. It's working well, especially on the areas where I added fairing compound.

[Canoez]

I tightened the screws into their respective countersunk holes and let the epoxy set up for an hour or two, then applied some 80 grit PSA abrasive paper and went to town, seeking to arrive at the TZSZ. To my horror, a light gouge started appearing in the trail of the longboard! I knew immediately that one of the screw heads had poked its way through the paper. Fortunately, the weren't too deep and I was able to sand them out quickly after removing the offending screw. After a sweat-inducing workout of a couple of hours, I got really lazy and reached for the 6" R.O. to speed things up. I'm maintaining a light touch and I keep the machine moving, checking often for low spots. It's working well, especially on the areas where I added fairing compound.

'nother thing that I find with a longboard is that the edges of the longboard can gouge up the surface of the soft cedar. We usually put a thin layer of fairly dense foam on the bottom of the longboard (between it and the paper) that wraps around the ends. Also, rounding the corners is nice, too.

[Sailor]

The out-of-focus lass in the background is Gil Elvstrom's (sp?) Ms. August 2010, "Near Miss," a delightful redhead who accidentally sprays herself whilst turning on the sprinkler (among other things).




No pics, didn't happen!

[MoMan]

Crimony!! If I gotta document every little detail on this thread, this contraption ain't NEVER gonna git built!







And here are a couple of close up pix of the patient following reconstructive surgery. I never said she looked good, only better than before:



Yeah, it could be better. But I guess it could be worse too. I'll have to settle for "first boat experience."

She looks even better from a distance!


Still a bit of sanding tuneup left to do, but it ain't going to get much better.

P.S.--It's Gil Elvgren, not Elvstrom (bailers!!)

[MoMan]

With the wife out of town, I had a full weekend of sanding zen, and I’m quite pleased with the way things are progressing. I’m now at the point of raising the grain and doing a final once-over with some 120 with the longboard. I do have a couple of questions for the pros:

I’ve filled gaps and voids with thickened epoxy/ wood flour EXCEPT where I have some gaps in a couple of the Peruvian walnut accent pieces. I am concerned that the color won’t match; but I am also concerned that these gaps will allow air bubbles during the glass/epoxy phase. If I use thickened epoxy without the wood flour, will it be transparent? I guess tonight I’ll try it on some PW scraps and see.

Glassing. I confess, I am feeling intimidated by such a big task. I’ve read and re-read the section in Canoe Craft as well as several pertinent posts in Canoez’ blog. One part of the process that I’m still not sure about: pre-coating the hull before the cloth is applied. Right now, I am leaning towards pre-coating. I assume this is done with unthickened epoxy and brushed/rolled on. Once I do this, would I wait for a full cure and sand before the cloth is applied? Or is pre-coating another part of the hot coat process? If it is part of hot coating, won’t the cloth stick to the still-curing pre-coat epoxy? And if I let it cure first, do I need to then wash the hull to remove amine blush?

In the mean time, I am working on tidying up the workspace in preparation of the big task that is looming. I plan to open the garage door, turn the industrial fans on full blast and hit the whole shop with the leaf blower to purge the dust. Let’s hope the neighbors aren’t washing their car when it happens!


--M

[Ed Armstrong]

I can't answer your question about whether to pre-coat or not, but you might try a couple of test panels to bolster your confidence. I haven't glassed anything large before, but I did a 3-foot strip-built model, and it was pretty easy. I didn't pre-coat -- just draped the cloth over the model, taped down one edge to keep it from sliding and wet it out. My understanding of pre-coating (I could very well be wrong) is that you're laying the cloth into wet epoxy, and it seems like it would be hard to work out the wrinkles, plus you'd have to work pretty fast.

Ed

[Adrift]

I have very little experience actually laying fiberglass and have read both pros and cons on it so any comment I would make wouldn't have experience backing it up. I just wanted to say, this is the funnest bestest craziest thread on boat building I have ever read. And, I learned a lot!

Thanks

[Canoez]

I’ve filled gaps and voids with thickened epoxy/ wood flour EXCEPT where I have some gaps in a couple of the Peruvian walnut accent pieces. I am concerned that the color won’t match; but I am also concerned that these gaps will allow air bubbles during the glass/epoxy phase. If I use thickened epoxy without the wood flour, will it be transparent? I guess tonight I’ll try it on some PW scraps and see.

If you use epoxy with other fillers such as glass-fiber or fumed silica (Cab-O-Sil and the like) you will probably wind up with a very whitish line. It will not be acceptable. Can you sand some of the Peruvian Walnut scrap to get "flour"? That would be my first choice if it was a Walnut-to-Walnut joint. If you have a gap that goes into the Walnut but is adjacent to the Cedar, I'd also use Walnut dust for color. If the gap is on the Cedar side, use Cedar. Because of the mechanical damage to the wood fibers in the manufacture of "wood flour", both commercially and in the use of sanding dust, the color of the filler always tends to be darker than the original wood. A bit of Cab-O-Sil helps with the consistency of the mix and lightens the color some.

Glassing. I confess, I am feeling intimidated by such a big task. I’ve read and re-read the section in Canoe Craft as well as several pertinent posts in Canoez’ blog. One part of the process that I’m still not sure about: pre-coating the hull before the cloth is applied. Right now, I am leaning towards pre-coating. I assume this is done with unthickened epoxy and brushed/rolled on. Once I do this, would I wait for a full cure and sand before the cloth is applied? Or is pre-coating another part of the hot coat process? If it is part of hot coating, won’t the cloth stick to the still-curing pre-coat epoxy? And if I let it cure first, do I need to then wash the hull to remove amine blush?

Stop. Take a deep breath. In. Out. Relax.

Take a peek at this on Sailor's Redbird Progress thread. It doesn't need to be intimidating. First, what epoxy are you using?

I tend to have my less experienced students pre-coat the hull with un-thickened epoxy. You can either brush or roll it on. You should let the epoxy cure with the pre-coating and then wash with soap and water or ammonia and water to remove any traces of amine blush prior to sanding - a green "scrubbie" is useful. Rinse and dry before sanding and then remove the sanding dust. Light sanding is required to give a mechanical bond between the coats. While not as good as a chemical bond (from hot-coating) I haven't had a coat fail. While pre-coating is not strictly required, I find it to be easier and gets the student used to working with the epoxy before being faced with saturating the cloth.

After pre-coating and the surface prep, drape the cloth on the hull with gloved hands and smooth it down. Then saturate the cloth and squeegee off the excess resin. (Don't "starve" the cloth when squeegeeing off the excess... Light touch) When the epoxy has cured to the point where a gloved finger touching the hull comes up clean, you can put on another coat of epoxy and so-forth. DON'T drape the cloth on a still-wet epoxy surface - you will regret it. The only time I do that is when adding reinforcing pieces of bias-cut cloth to the stems - that's a small and manageable thing to do.

If you let the epoxy cure, you should do a proper surface prep as noted above to remove any traces of amines. Use a green "scrubbie" like 3M's Scotch-Brite to rough the surface but don't cut into the glass fibers. If you've got more questions, let me know.

In the mean time, I am working on tidying up the workspace in preparation of the big task that is looming. I plan to open the garage door, turn the industrial fans on full blast and hit the whole shop with the leaf blower to purge the dust. Let’s hope the neighbors aren’t washing their car when it happens!
--M

[Todd Bradshaw]

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES try to lay a hunk of cloth that big into wet or sticky resin. You will fail and be damned lucky if you can salvage the boat. If you pre-coat, you wait long enough that it is not sticky and then lay your cloth on and saturate it. If you do it ASAP (or ASANS - as soon as not sticky) any blush will float up through the next layer and it won't be a problem. On the other hand, if you wait until the next day to apply the cloth, then you would need to remove the blush first, as the window for blush floating up and through isn't that big.

Problems with this? - For one thing, a single, thin coat of resin (which is what a pre-coat should be) isn't always completely waterproof. Washing the blush off has the possibility of getting some water down into the wood, which isn't good. Then there is the issue of grain-raising from the pre-coat, which makes it much more difficult to move the cloth around as needed when doing the glassing. Cloth bubbles are often prevented and removed by easing more cloth into or out of an area with the roller, squeegee or whatever you're using to work the glass down. A pre-coat tends to leave the entire hull covered with tiny, sharp stickers, and cloth doesn't slide or move on stickers. You could wash the blush off and sand the stickers off, generating a pre-coated surface that was smooth and blush and sticker-free, but sanding fresh resin is a health/sensitivity issue, so you really should wait a week or so for it to cure to a much more benign state before sanding it.

So, the only logical way to pre-coat is to put in on, watch it until it has reached the non-sticky state and then immediately start glassing. If you're starting to wonder "Then why the hell should I bother to pre-coat the hull?" then you're on the right track. It adds weight, in some ways makes the job more difficult (the stickers) and the fears that some folks have about air coming out of the wood, or the wood sucking resin out of the glass, are generally trivial with careful saturation and the light weights of cloth used on strippers. I've done the job both ways and I simply see no advantage and no difference in the quality of the finish from pre-coating. When you combine that with the problems it can create when trying to move the cloth around, it becomes far more trouble than it's worth.

I've told people before, and I'll also tell you....get somebody to mix resin for you in continuous, small-ish batches while you concentrate on the application. It will make the whole process go a lot smoother and yield a better result.

[Canoez]

I tend to agree with most of what Todd says, here, but I do think that when working with 6 oz and up for cloth weights, you start to see some issues with starving the cloth - not a big deal and it's easy to fix so long as you're paying attention - the same with bubbles. I don't agree that pre-coating has much influence on the finished hull weight. We usually refer to it as "candy coating" as you're only sealing the wood - the wood will absorb the same amount of resin regardless of whether it goes on with the glass or as part of the pre-coat. We sand the pre-coating to get rid of raised grain as because of my class structure, we've got that week that it cures before we drape the hull with cloth. Because my class is about 3 hours long, we operate in certain ways. When I'm working at home, that's different and I prefer to simply drape the hull with glass and go, hot-coating as much as I can before I either a) finish the glass job or b) have to stop.

As I've noted before you don't need to pre-coat. You just need to spend the time to make sure that you are doing a good job of it and that there aren't issues. Still, I find that rank beginners have an easier time and are more comfortable 'glassing this way on their first boat. Also, it is much better to have a whole day to hot-coat as the bonds between coats are better and ultimately, even though you need to devote a whole day to the process, you spend less overall time doing it as you don't need to prep between coats. It's when you must stop between coats that you need to let the previous one cure and do surface prep.

Air coming out of the wood is entirely preventable and is usually a reflection of two things - how good a job stripping/filling the hull you did or the temperature curve you're operating in - always work from warmer to cooler to avoid the off-gassing of the hull for the first coat. Never work in the sun.

I've told people before, and I'll also tell you....get somebody to mix resin for you in continuous, small-ish batches while you concentrate on the application. It will make the whole process go a lot smoother and yield a better result.

Best advice about 'glassing around. Have somebody to help and make sure they know what they're doing to mix the epoxy properly in terms of ratio and mixing before they start.

[MoMan]

... or the temperature curve you're operating in - always work from warmer to cooler to avoid the off-gassing of the hull for the first coat.

If this is a major factor, I might be in trouble: In Houston right now, it cools off to a balmy 80 degrees overnight, rising to 100+ by mid afternoon. The only way to work from warmer to cooler would be to start in the evening and work overnight.

I did check West System's web site yesterday--they don't seem to think 100F is an issue for their product. BTW, I'm using West 105/206 and 6oz cloth (from B. Mountain). I meant to review their product manual that came with the epoxy last night. Maybe when I get home tonight.

Thanks very much to both you and Todd for taking time to comment--it does help me visualize the process and calms my self doubt.

--M