Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Sailor
    Senior Member #4610
    • Feb 2002
    • 5229

    #61
    Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

    It's ok, if anyone asks you can say it's that annoying kid Andy from down the street that did it.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

    Comment

    • MoMan
      Flaccid Member
      • Nov 2009
      • 1062

      #62
      Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

      CRAP!!

      I really hate being the new guy/plebe/virgin/idiot. Today, the Houston weather really cooperated: 70 degrees F, mostly sunny, decent breeze. After an extensive set up, I had the garage door open and spent the entire day running my strips through the router table to cut the bead first, then the cove. It felt great to finally be making some progress! By 3:00, I was finished and getting pretty tired, so I shot off the router and the dust collector and settled onto the deck with a beer to study my Canoe Craft book to prepare for the next step. That's where it hit me: The strips are supposed to be 3/4" Don't ask me why I thought they were supposed to be 3" wide.

      Now, this is not meant to be an excuse, but rather a partial explanation: I started machining my lumber a year ago according to Randy Folsom's book. But that doesn't really explain everything either: he recommends a 5/8"width to cut down on sanding.

      [sigh] Looks like I got a lot more machining ahead of me than I thought ...
      “It doesn’t matter how slowly you go -- so long as you do not stop.”
      -Confucius

      Comment

      • Fitz
        Wood Canoe Nut
        • Mar 2001
        • 2822

        #63
        Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

        MoMan, this issue has bothered me some too. I am not sure why you could not get by with wider strips and cut down on some of the glueing and stuff later. I am used to wood and canvas canoes with 2 to 4 inch wide planks and it seems to me one could get by quite well with wider strips. Especially, when I was turning good wood to saw/planer dust getting to 3/4 inch.

        I appeal to the stripper guys on the forum. Let us know what is too wide and why.

        Fitz.
        Last edited by Fitz; 01-29-2011, 08:28 PM.
        "Wherever there is a channel for water, there is a road for the canoe. " - Thoreau

        Comment

        • Todd Bradshaw
          Sailmaker
          • Jun 2000
          • 11081

          #64
          Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

          In some places, it could be done if you really wanted to. Remember though, that when you plank a wood/canvas boat, you have tacks into every rib and the ribs are pretty close together, connecting the planks to cross-grained support under them. It would be tough to force 3" wide strips into a cross-section that's not just flat when your forms are spread apart so far. Once the staples or clamps came off, there wouldn't be anything holding the plank-strips into shape except the glued edges - nothing cross-grained. I suspect the design might take on a whole new personality at that point. You could certainly use wide strips in some spots on the bottom and upper sides of a lot of designs, but you had better have narrow ones in the curve of the bilge and other shape-y places. Plus, narrow strips make it easier for us to inlay images of bunnies, beaver, elk and other woodland creatures into our strip patterns.

          Comment

          • Canoez
            Did I say that out loud?
            • Sep 2007
            • 20615

            #65
            Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

            Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I'm talking about canoe strips here...

            Well, there's strips that are too wide and strips that are too narrow. Generally, (and I'm really generalizing here...) 1/4" thick by 3/4" wide are what are recommended, available for purchase and what we use. There are a few factors that come into play - the wood you're using, the grain direction of the strips, thickness of the strips and the shape of the boat.

            I've found that small canoes and canoes with lots of change in shape benefit from the narrow strips - the wider the strips get, the harder they are to both twist and bend. If the wood you are using is Western Red, it is brittle and the risk of breaking a wider strip as you are twisting and bending is greater. If you're dealing with a longer canoe, the transition is more gradual and a wider strip might be fine - say 7/8" or so. We did recently do a Wee Lassie II with 1" wide strips from the gunwale to the turn of the bilge and then went to 3/4" wide strips on the bottom as the 1" ones were difficult to get to flex on the bottom. Another problem is that if your strips are wide, so are the "facets" and you will be thinning out the hull more as you fair it. Because our strips are on a relatively flat part of the hull, we're not worried about thinning out as we fair the hull before glassing.

            If your strips are too narrow - about 5/8" or less, you are just going to do a heck of a lot of stripping - lots and lots. They will deal with bend and twist a bit more easily than the wider strips and fairing will be easier.

            Fitz - you've got to keep in mind that planking the hull of a cedar and canvas boat, the planking is much thinner - 5/32" or so, you're tacking it down and if it is balky, using a swab with hot water to get it to flex. Also, planking is very often White Cedar which flexes more easily and is less brittle. That's why you get away with the wider stock on a cedar and canvas boat.

            One other note that I'll make here is that the WRC stock that we have available in our area is that it is either 1" S4S, (Which is more like 5/8" than the 3/4" it is supposed to be) 4/4" S3S ( 3/4-7/8" thick with one rough face depending on the source) or 5/4 S4S (mostly a full inch thick - and yeah, it is tough to plane that stock to the thickness you want before use - it ain't cheap!)
            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
            -William A. Ward

            Comment

            • Fitz
              Wood Canoe Nut
              • Mar 2001
              • 2822

              #66
              Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

              Thanks guys. I didn't mean to imply that I was thinking 2 to 4 inch strips, but I was seriously considering 7/8's.

              MoMan - sorry not to notice the width of your strips sooner. You needed that little helper in the pic for scale and it may have jumped out at us.
              "Wherever there is a channel for water, there is a road for the canoe. " - Thoreau

              Comment

              • MoMan
                Flaccid Member
                • Nov 2009
                • 1062

                #67
                Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

                Yeah, stoopid rookie mistake. Fortunately, cutting a board too wide is much preferable to cutting it too narrow or too short, so it's not an unmitigated disaster; just a little setback. I was really hoping to start planking this week, but now I've got to reconfigure my whole infeed/outfeed setup: Those 5/8" (or 3/4") strips are going to be about as stiff as cooked spaghetti. I guess my first step will be to trim off the delicate cove, then bust out the narrow kerf rip blade.

                Since I see there are some experienced builders peeking in on my thread, let me ask some rookie scarfing questions: This boat is 16', and my lumber is all 12', which means virtually all strips below the shear line will be scarfed. With 1/4" thick strips, I'm assuming the scarf will have to be end grain-to-end grain (as opposed across the face like you would for something like 3/4" plywood). Will a 45-degree cut give enough gluing surface? I realize that the planking doesn't provide any of the strength for the boat, but the scarfs will have to hold together until the epoxy gets applied. And my second question: is it better to place the scarfs at the molds? Or in the fields (i.e. between the molds)?

                Thanks for taking the time to educate me!

                --M
                “It doesn’t matter how slowly you go -- so long as you do not stop.”
                -Confucius

                Comment

                • Popol
                  Junior Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 14

                  #68
                  Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

                  Hey MoMan,

                  Nice job.

                  Keep up the spirit.

                  Best regards,
                  Paul

                  Comment

                  • Bert Langley
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2000
                    • 232

                    #69
                    Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

                    Most strippers are built with butt joints and not scarfed at all. Better to do it between the molds and stagger them (more for aesthetics than strength). Butt joints can be done so that you really have to look close to see them. Of course you need to pay attention to wood color.

                    I just got through stripping a 15' Hiawatha (Used the offsets from Canoecraft). I used full one inch wide strips resulting in a savings of around 16 strips for the boat. I don't think I would like to try to use wider. Since I build almost exclusively in Tulip Poplar I was able to find clear 16' boards so I was able to use full-length strips for the whole boat. It did save time not having to join strips as I went. Plus Tulip Poplar is much less brittle then WRC and at least in our area less than a third the cost.

                    Comment

                    • Canoez
                      Did I say that out loud?
                      • Sep 2007
                      • 20615

                      #70
                      Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

                      You can use either butt or scarf joints, although the scarf joints will add to your work. Since you are using bead and cove, it should be a bit easier - the cove and bead will lock the end of the strip into position and you just continue to build.

                      If you bevel strips by hand, you'll need to take a little more care to put something clamped over the butt joint where the strips meet to keep the strip in place. This can be done by putting the joint at a form and stapling both ends to the forms. (Note - this can cause the ends to split!) Alternatively, you can to it as Bert mentions between the forms and then clamp a tape-coated strip over inside and out (until the glue dries...) so that there isn't an abrupt change in direction at the butt joint.

                      It is also possible to scarf and glue the strip's scarf joints off the hull before applying them to the canoe, but you'll want to stagger them along the length of the canoe as was noted above.

                      When picking strips to be butted together or scarfed, I think it looks best if you pay attention to grain and color to match them well - helps hide the scarf. (Purely aesthetic and my opinion only) A damp cloth will help show grain and color of the strips to help you choose.
                      "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
                      -William A. Ward

                      Comment

                      • Sailor
                        Senior Member #4610
                        • Feb 2002
                        • 5229

                        #71
                        Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

                        I found boards at a specialty store that were longer than the 18 foot hull I built, probably around 20 or 21 foot planks. Ripped them and milled them myself. I would consider in your position, to make up some sort of design on the ends using the different colours you have available and use that to hide the but joints. You can cut them on angles so they look like scarphs and make different designs. It'll look way cool and you'll be able to say "Yeah, I did that!".
                        If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
                        -Henry David Thoreau-

                        Comment

                        • Canoez
                          Did I say that out loud?
                          • Sep 2007
                          • 20615

                          #72
                          Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

                          Sailor has a good point here, actually. I had a student who only found short pieces of the wood he wanted to use (Sassafrass...) One of the options was to scarf them all, the other option was to use the short strips to his advantage to create a design on the bow of the canoe on both sides with contrasting wood.
                          "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
                          -William A. Ward

                          Comment

                          • P.L.Lenihan
                            Junior Cinq-etoile
                            • Oct 2005
                            • 7472

                            #73
                            Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

                            Alrighty, where the heck is Andy and what the blazes has he done to MoMan?! Is it too cold down there Mike or have ya run out of some of that there Texas thinkin' juice?! Summers just around the corner............somewhere........you folks must have BIG corners!


                            Cheers!


                            Peter
                            Do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,now!
                            J.Lennon

                            This boat was built with ten thumbs.No fingers were harmed in anyway.

                            Comment

                            • MoMan
                              Flaccid Member
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 1062

                              #74
                              Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

                              WELL Welll well well well. I suppose it's time for a little update. Despite my lack of WBF updates, I actually have been working on stuff ... OK i've spent more time thinkin' on things than I've spent workin' on things, but that's all water under the bridge at this point, so on with it already!!

                              My first task was to strip off my last mistake: run all the planks thru the table saw to remove my prematurely machined bead.

                              Next, re-rip my too-wide boards down to the appropriate 3/4-ish width.

                              After that, take an undeserved snowboard vacation, return to a chilly, actually-freezing gulf-coast city and procrastinate for a week, then start the real machining.




                              Yes, I spent the last 2 days running my strips thru the router. I figure I have between 130 and 150 strips--mostly 12 feet long. I also have some shorter accent strips( pine and mahogany). If you wanna submit a guess, I'm offering a baggie full of unidentified sawdust as a reward for the most accurate answer.

                              I know you'll feel tempted to feel sorry for me, and I can't blame you because a couple of my fingertips are really raw, but I do realize that the vast majority of the work lays ahead of me.

                              P.S.--as soon as I feel up to it, I'll update you on Andy's latest escapade. I'm not happy.
                              “It doesn’t matter how slowly you go -- so long as you do not stop.”
                              -Confucius

                              Comment

                              • P.L.Lenihan
                                Junior Cinq-etoile
                                • Oct 2005
                                • 7472

                                #75
                                Re: Build-A-Bear, mountain-style canoe

                                Originally posted by MoMan
                                I'm not happy.

                                Hi Mike,
                                Lots of good work done there and I think I have found the reason why you are not happy......................








                                your signature line,"I hate fun"



                                Cheers!


                                Peter
                                Do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,now!
                                J.Lennon

                                This boat was built with ten thumbs.No fingers were harmed in anyway.

                                Comment

                                Working...