Motor / Sailboat first build for me & my brother -plan input needed.

[toofar]

I've got a 9 yr old kid brother (17 yrs younger than me), a spare 6hp 2-stroke Johnson outboard and a garage . . . I need a boat plan. This will be the first boat I've built. I've got my eye on a Devlin Pelicano, Tolman Skiff or Atkin Ninagret for a next build; so this one is intended for practice, fun build with my brother and a use for a spare motor. The plan is to build the boat with his help and then give it to him for playing and learning to sail. I've found several boat plans that claim to sail great and motor decent, I'm looking for the opposite. In order of importance, this is what I'd like to find-

relatively quick and cheap build (max $1000 (minus motor and rigging))
motor boat as primary function
sailing as secondary function (remove motor, put on rudder, not thinking of using the motor as a kicker really)
rowing performance not a real concern
tall freeboard/dry ride, room for up to three (two adults, 1 child)
sail single handed for child (once taught)
decent looking
easy to rig (stayed mast ok, but I like the thought of the simplicity of an unstayed mast)
like the look of a (very) small covered foredeck or storage hatches of some sort
no experience with sailing ballast tanks
possible towed dinghy for our 25' helms sailboat
durable, beachable, to be on shore/in water always

Again, this list is in order of importance, I realize a single boat can't be everything. I think stitch and glue may be the preferred construction, since most of what I'm looking at for a next build is stitch and glue. This started as a search for a jonboat with the ability to safely travel at a decent speed between me & my wife's house and my parents house (about 7 miles on a lake up to 1.5 miles wide). I had my mind set on a Devlin Grayling 13, but then I thought- why not something that could sail too?

Any input is appreciated, Thanks!

[Thorne]

Interesting design requirements! There are a lot of small sailboats that can be powered (up to the limited hull speed), but few small powerboats that use sail for secondary propulsion.

Don't think you can do it for $1k building new, particularly the sailboat part of the requirements. You could shop around on Craigslist (assuming you are in the USofA) and see what is available used for fixing up. You'll also need to buy the sails used on eBay, CL or from an online sail reseller like baconsails.com.

For a pure powerboat build, several of the stitch & glue designs might be built for that cost if you are very careful of materials costs. The Brockway might work, see this recent thread - http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...way&highlight=

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[Mike Vogdes]

Welcome aboard toofar, you sound like a pretty good brother. You will get plenty of suggestions I'm sure, I'm a big Devlin fan as well. You should consider a B&B tender for the build with your little brother. I built an 8' Catspaw and was very pleased with it, you should be able to build one of their selections for about a grand set up like you want. http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/yachtt3.htm

[JimD]

Something small enough to be towed by your larger boat and still big enough to be a useful 6 hp daytripper in its own right might be the sticking point. Do you like this?

She can be built as a pure rowing/outboard motor dinghy for fishing or use as a tender or she can be fitted out as a sailing dinghy.

11.5 feet long, weight under 100# http://www.selway-fisher.com/Other1013.htm

[toofar]

Thorne- I'm on Lake Murray in South Carolina, right in the middle of the state. I'd hoped to build the finished hull, dagger/center/lee/board/trunk for under $1000. All of the the rigging/sails/mast/boom can come later as an additional cost. I've got a torn sail from an MC Scow I've thought about cutting down. I also thought about just buying a boat on craigslist and using it . . . but I've done that plenty of times, and actually want to build the boat this time. On Devlin's site he lists the Grayling can be build for $850 in materials, but that may be outdated. I'd probably sacrifice in quality of material before letting this become a $2k project. But anyway, other's please don't let the budget restrain your suggestions too much, it could end up being a lumberyard boat.

Mike- The B&B Spindrift is one that I've bookmarked, but was concerned with the low HP rating and smallish look of the pictures shown of the 11' model. Maybe the pictures are deceptive? I'd taken Catspaw out of the running because of the HP rating. What's your thought having built one?

JimD- The Selway-Fisher plans were another I had bookmarked. They have alot of nice looking plans, anyone have experience with building/using any of these? The Highlander 11' also caught my eye.

[JimD]

JimD- The Selway-Fisher plans were another I had bookmarked. They have alot of nice looking plans, anyone have experience with building/using any of these? The Highlander 11' also caught my eye.

Here's an SF pram I built. It went together very easily

[Mike Vogdes]

Mike- The B&B Spindrift is one that I've bookmarked, but was concerned with the low HP rating and smallish look of the pictures shown of the 11' model. Maybe the pictures are deceptive? I'd taken Catspaw out of the running because of the HP rating. What's your thought having built one?[/QUOTE]


I suppose if you are committed to the 6hp motor then I see your reasoning. I would think an 11' boat would handle that motor ok, you can always give them a call and talk it over. I believe the fellow at B&B is Graham, very nice man.

[Thorne]

I say don't build a seriously compromised boat that won't do either motoring or sailing well -- do it with two boats.

Build a cheap power skiff like the Brockway or a power garvey, as that will give you the most speed with that motor -- and 7 miles is a long way to go slower than necessary. You'll want to plane and a decent design should do that if you build lightweight.


Then pick up a small sailing pram and rig that out for sailing. There are often lots of older Sabots, Sabotinas and Bullships around, priced much cheaper than could ever be built.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Here's a discussion concerning a boat that successfully uses motor, sail and oar. Just looking at the pictures you can see about what kind of compromises the builder accepted to get a workable result. It's long and skinny. It has a rounded bottom for low wetted area. It only weighs bout 120 lb wich is exceptional for a 16 footer. I don't know if everyone could achieve that.
http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic....b83ff72bfb4056
Even tho' the boat has all of the structures for sailing the spars and sail have not be fabricated yet.

[Thorne]

Interesting article, Chuck! But that boat was powered with the small lightweight Honda 2hp air-cooled 4-stroke. I suspect that putting a 6hp 2-stroke and three passengers on that boat would make it dangerously unstable at speed.

I still think the OP should build a planing powerboat to match the motor's power and weight and the need to plane 7 miles up a lake. Then buy and fix up a used Sabot or El Toro, which will perfectly match the requirement for single-handing by a child.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Interesting article, Chuck! But that boat was powered with the small lightweight Honda 2hp air-cooled 4-stroke. I suspect that putting a 6hp 2-stroke and three passengers on that boat would make it dangerously unstable at speed.

I still think the OP should build a planing powerboat to match the motor's power and weight and the need to plane 7 miles up a lake. Then buy and fix up a used Sabot or El Toro, which will perfectly match the requirement for single-handing by a child.

I was just trying to point out that a three-way boat is possible if the builder is willing to make the required concessions.
To me the 6HP outboard isn't a logical starting point for constructing a boat that is supposed to do everything. If you leave out the sail option and don't demand crisp rowing performance the 6 HP motor could be mated with any number of suitable rowboats up to about 14 feet. The GV 11 would be a good choice because it could plane if lightly loaded.
So I concur. Build two boats. Preferably Stitch and Glue to save time. Do the rowboat first to learn the ropes and then the sailboat.

[toofar]

Mike Vogdes and JimD- I think one of your recommendations may end up being the best . . . compromise. Also from post #4, towing behind the bigger sailboat is probably the least sought after option, so bigger is ok. Although, a 25' sailboat with an 18' dinghy would have a certain nice look to it . . .

Thorne- You have a good point- "build a cheap power skiff". If I build a cheap power skiff, that would atleast get the boat built. Less investment=less frustration when it slams the dock/ gets beached on the boat ramp, etc. I've got the MC Scow and a Hobie, I could let him sail those. But the goal is building a boat that could do both . . . just because. If I go the power skiff route, got any plan recommendations for Garveys or anything else? I've enjoyed reading the Brockway information.

Reading this and the "How incompatible are rowing and outboard motor?" post that was started about the same time has been interesting. Both seem to get at the same issue.

I've been reading and searching for designs pretty heavily, of what I can find on the internet these seem best fit the requirements I listed-

Selway-Fisher: small Highlander or Rhum
B&B: large Spindrift or Bay River Skiff
John Welsford: Golden Bay/Setnet or Rogue
Redmon Bluegill
Goat Island Skiff
Bateau V12

Even half the boats on the short list have enough rocker in the hull to probably take away the ability to plane. If anyone has input on these designs, I'd love to have it. Even of the plans that claim to plane, there's not much on the internet showing pictures of this actually taking place, etc.

I'm going to strap the 6hp on the aluminum john boat and run around some with a GPS. This should give me a better feel for what the target top end really should be and what the motor is capable of pushing.

Thanks for the responses!

[donald branscom]

A catboat design only needs one stay.
Many rigs do not need stays.
Get that book... 101 small boat rigs.

For $1000 bucks just buy a used boat. a lot faster and cheaper.
You could spend $1000 just on safety gear.

Marine Radio $100.
Life vests for all occupants.
Horn.
Bell if there is fog.
Oars just in case.
lights?
Marine gas can.
Boat paint
State Registration?

Remember 7 miles in a boat is a lot longer than traveling in a car. 10 times longer.

[mcdenny]

The 6 hp might plane the 9 yr old alone in a very light boat but it would be marginal at best and 9 yo seems a tad young to be out alone in a very light & small boat going 10 -15 mph. Wouldn't take much wind on a lake your size to get your mother worried about him.

6 hp would be plenty to push any unballasted sailboat under 20' up to hull speed. You just need a way of running the motor while sitting far enough forward to trim the boat level. A 4' piece of pvc tubing hose clamped to the motor's tiller handle?

[rbgarr]

Do I understand that you already have a Helms 25, an MC scow and a Hobie cat? If so, your son has a wide range of boats too learn to sail in, and once he sailed in a Hobie or MC I suspect he'd find other smaller sailboats boring. Rowing on Lake Murray also has limited appeal I'd think, unless he's interested in nearshore fishing?

Thus I'd be more inclined to build one of these with him to use with that 6 hp motor. I had a similar boat at that age: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...t-Rock-Hall-YC

[JimD]

Simpler is cheaper. Less glue, fewer chines to tape, fewer sheets of plywood, etc. I like Bluegill. Very elegant for its type. Going smaller, Welsford's GoldenBay/Setnet. You might get better performance out of some of the others but at added work and money.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Bateau's V-12 is basically a vee-bottomed rowboat with a sail option. And a rather small sail at that. The Bateau C-12 is the same length but shaped to give better performance and it's sail is near 80 sq. ft. It's a bit more complex to build. It has a centerboard but Batueau will supply plans for a dagger if you want it. It's about 30 lb. heavier the the V-12 because it'sa more than a foot wider.
For a boat that looks for all the world like a fishing dinghy the C-12 is an exceptional performer.

[Eddiebou]

Several yrs ago, I built a 14' flat bottom plywood skiff. Very simple. I am pretty much a "wood buzzard" and had several sheets of 3/8 ply,all the solid wood I needed for everything, a fully equipped shop, and the space to build it. My time and labor being free, a friend gave me full size plans and was generous enough to supply me with 2 nice sanders and the sandpaper to go with them. $0 so far. By the time I had bought epoxy/ resin, cloth, SS screws, and paint, it was just a couple of hundred bucks. I picked up a 2nd hand 9 1/2 hp motor for $150. What really added up in the end was getting legal to get in the water. Had to prove to Va Dept of game and inland fisheries that I had built the boat. Take pictures and save receipts. I ended up driving to the state headquarters to do this in order to get a title. Then the registration/ numbers, fishing sticker, fire extinguisher, whistle, life jackets, etc. It ended up costing me somewhere around $800. to get in the water. This little boat will plane off with 2 people on board, but 7 miles is a lot farther than it sounds when you're holding on to the tiller. Good luck with your build.

[toofar]

I know everyone is well intentioned, but some responses seem strange for the Designs/Plans forum of woodenboats.com. Two recommendations to 'just buy a boat' and one for $1000 worth of safety gear? Again, I know everyone is well intentioned.

I think I said too much, or not enough about what I'm getting after here. Since I can't say less, and some seem concerned for the boy's safety-

I was blessed to be born in a boat family. I got a 6' mini bassboat with a 3hp on it for Christmas when I was 7 or 8. Then I moved up to a 12' aluminum jonboat with a 7.5hp, enough to leave the cove, then the 18' fiberglass narrow garvey style boat with a 25hp and lights, enough to go anywhere and in the dark. By the time I was 11, my parents were getting calls from concerned neighbors that I had stolen the family boat, an 18' Renken I/0. We were raised to know how to be safe, what to do in an emergency/storm and how to take care of a boat.

For whatever reason, my kid brother hasn't gotten the early start that my older brother and I did. I want to build a wooden boat with him. I would like to build a boat capable of making the 7 mile trip from house to house, but I don't think we'll send him off to do it by himself. I'd like the capability to travel distance, go exploring up river, etc. Yes we have boats he could sail, but that wouldn't be building a wooden boat. For that matter, we also have an aluminum jonboat we could put the motor on, but that wouldn't be building a wooden boat either.

Simply put- I'm getting after a small boat, but not so small as to be unsafe outside of the cove, that can plane with 6hp under light load, and sail. I'd like to build the hull & board/trunk for under $1000. This does not include the spars/sails/rigging, shop, tools, safety gear or registration.

I have a nice shop, my father is a retired shop teacher between us we have the tools, and we have boats already so I know what to expect on cost of safety gear. Thank you for pointing these things out, someone without boating experience could get blindsided by these costs for sure.

Anyway, the goal is $1000 planing jonboat that can also sail. Maybe that's not realistic, or worth building "a seriously compromised boat" as Thorne called it.

I think I'm set on one of the B&B boats or the Bluegill. I'm going to give Graham a call and try to find the issue of WoodenBoat that had the Bluegill in it. Also, I'm going to put the 6hp on the aluminum boat this weekend and see if planing is even realistic.

Thanks everyone for the input and help, I'll be sure to post back what we end up building . . . and how much it ends up costing.

Again, any input is appreciated -Thanks

[rbgarr]

Best of luck. Your son is a lucky boy.

[biglad]

I have a Selway Fisher Highlander 11. I have put a Mirror sailing rig on it and have a 2.5hp Yamaha outboard. I take it out in the Firth of Forth (which can have a bit of a chop) and its a good boat. Stable for its size and room for 2-3 adults sailing. It was my first boat and very easy to build. My next boat will be a glued lap....see how I get on with it.

[ssfletch]

My dad and I built my first boat together when I was a freshman in high school back in the early 80's. It wasn't pretty when we were done, but the process was really powerful for me - both working together with him, and launching a vessel that came from a pile of plywood and 2X stock. We lived in Ct at the time, and used to go visit Earl Brockway in his backyard when he was still around (my dad had bought a bunch of skiffs from him in the past)- so the skiff had the same utilitarian focus; it was heavy and could be banged around without too much concern.
Anyway, build the boat with your kid brother and ignore the neasayers. It will be a memory neither of you will soon forget. BTW - I love the Redmond designs - my vote is for the Bluegill, with no experience other than it is a real beauty and looks relatively uncomplicated to build.

[DGentry]

I believe both Bolger's Gypsy and his Thomaston Galley were designed for use with an outboard, too, though primarily sail and oar boats.
http://instantboats.com/gypsy.htm


But, if you really want a jon boat sort of sailing/outboard boat, perhaps you might consider Bolger's "Fast Brick" design. John Kolb, in Colorado built one . . .

As described in Messing About in Boats, Vol. 22 No. 8 of 01 September 2003, the design has many unusual features in order to fulfill it's many intended functions; among these are a self-contained sailing rig offset to port, watertight stowage lockers intended to carry emergency gear at all times, and foam sandwich construction that makes the hull unsinkable. Like many Bolger designs, it has few if concessions to style in order to keep it as simple as possible to build while still meeting the desired requirements. The boat can be built in any length from 8' up to 12' to suit . . .

His building log: http://www.kolbsadventures.com/fastbrick_1.htm
I'll admit that it isn't my thing, but it should fit the bill for your requirements - it looks like it would plane, too.
Fast Brick - complete with folded mast:


Good luck!
Dave Gentry

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I went thru' $500 worth of how-to books before I built my first little boat. There was nothing like that in any of them. Were those dozen or so authors all blind to the glories of the "all-right-angles-school-of-boatbuilding"?

[WhitehallBoat]

I built a nice Mirror Dinghy with these simple Mirror Dinghy Plans. Check them out, as a lot of people are having some great success with them. See you on the water.

[pippo]

I was about to suggest Bolger's Gypsy or Storer's Goat Island Skiff but others were faster than me...
Then it came to my mind that the late Tom Jones was enthusiastic about Dobler's 16-feet daysailer. Here it is (redrawn by Jones)

http://www.jonesboats.com/dobler16.html

[openboater]

Twister is a power / sailboat that was designed as such.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/twister/index.htm

[wizbang 13]

I've built about 30 small boats, never followed a plan or design. I build cardboard models, then , usually, do something like this,

[wizbang 13]

[Dan St Gean]

Looks light!

Dan

[skaraborgcraft]

way to go WB!

[Thorne]

I was about to suggest Bolger's Gypsy or Storer's Goat Island Skiff but others were faster than me...
Then it came to my mind that the late Tom Jones was enthusiastic about Dobler's 16-feet daysailer. Here it is (redrawn by Jones)

I have a friend who bought a used Dobler's daysailer and have raced in it with him, but it is VERY tender, and usually ends up being sailed with the gunwales in the water to get some directional stability from the chines. Fun and wet, but very unsuited for an outboard!

[Mike Vogdes]

Wiz I really like that tender of yours... very practical, what is that mounted on the forward transom?

[Bert Langley]

Second the vote for the Redmond Bluegill. I have the plans and it looks like a pretty simple build. I think of it more as a motor boat than a sail boat, but suspect it will be a steady of not exciting sailer.

[wizbang 13]

Wiz I really like that tender of yours... very practical, what is that mounted on the forward transom?

This is not FOR me. it is custom made for a 32' island sloop. The cutout is to go around the mast when upside down on deck.

Fwd is a laminated bow at the sheer and down low is a laminated piece that goes aft a bit, for towing, strong enough to tow if it gets swamped, and not pull the bow off. The eyebolt has not been put in yet in the pic.