The outrigger and proa thread

[Frank Russell]

Does anyone know what's become of this interesting proa by Dick Newick? I've only seen this 'for sale' listing over the years and had actually spoke with Dick when he was selling it. Just wondering what's become of the boat...

http://dicknewickboats.com/proa.html

[upchurchmr]

Robert,

One of the things that bothers me about the Triak is the lack of resistance to diagonal (fwd/outboard) pitchpole.
I've never sailed one, but I assume the reason this is not an issue is due to the limited transverse stability ( the 70# bouyancy ) and the small sail area.
Limited stability means you have to back off the sail power, which would take care of the pitchpole possibility.

Increasing the beam or the bouyancy means that sometime in an increasing wind you will be cutting into your safety margin. Probably most critical on a beam reach.
That makes for more fun in my opinion, but you have to decide.
Can't give you any real numbers, but anyone who has pitchpoled a Hobie knows what I am talking about.

[RKDJONES]

I've been offline for a while. Thanks for the feedback. I've never pitchpoled a catamaran, but have certainly seen it happen. I've seen people pitchpole kayaks in surf for that matter. The Triak does have quite a bit of forward rocker, and lots of flotation in the bow, and I have no intention of going outside the protected waters of Puget Sound. This mitigates pitchpoling directly forward. But I can see the concern about a diagonal pitchpole with the amas so far aft. I'm not crazy about that aspect of the design. A boat is nothing if not a bundle of compromises. Robert

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I found this and thought of you...



From here http://www.boatbuildingacademy.com/b...annah-jenkins/

[BobBill]

I found this and thought of you...



From here http://www.boatbuildingacademy.com/b...annah-jenkins/

I see this kind of stuff and I want it...crazy potential. Love it. You think workers just gave up?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Follow the link, there are build and launch pictures.

monster cool.

[Gary Dierking]

Follow the link, there are build and launch pictures.

monster cool.

I believe this is an Ulua project from 2011, unless Hannah has built another one. http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogsp...h-jenkins.html

[Lugalong]

With word in preceding posts making it sound as though the end is coming soon,I'll make a 'last ditch' effort to show some pics of outriggers and proas.
However,Since the only way I can show pics is to first find a sight to download them, I have had to do this by, using the SOUTHERNOUTRIGGER sight, which I have been paying to use for some time now.
AS I UNDERSTAND things;before PICS they can be 'carried over' onto this forum( by some as yet personally untried method,which in theory, is the way to go when showing pics), they need have have some or other 'home', besides my personal files.
Well!,at the moment there is a random smattering of info on the www.SOUTHERNOUTRIGGERS .com sight, including some outrigger and proa stuff, with my intention being to in the near future; to publish pics, text and illustrations covering research done on Oceanic canoes over the last 40 years........withpics of building projects in th workshop included

[cpcanoesailor]

LOLmk2.jpgIt looks like you can upload pics from your computer to this forum. Select the 'Insert Image' icon in the toolbar when replying to a post. In the dialog that pops up, click on 'From Computer' and then click the 'Browse' button. After the file is selected, click on 'Upload File(s)'. That wasn't obvious, because there's no button or hilighting when you hover the mouse over it. But it works.

If you want to archive an outrigger/proa legacy, there are a few other forums that are focused on those topics. For example, proaforum.com.

Happy posting!

[Lugalong]

LOLmk2.jpgIt looks like you can upload pics from your computer to this forum. Select the 'Insert Image' icon in the toolbar when replying to a post. In the dialog that pops up, click on 'From Computer' and then click the 'Browse' button. After the file is selected, click on 'Upload File(s)'. That wasn't obvious, because there's no button or hilighting when you hover the mouse over it. But it works.

If you want to archive an outrigger/proa legacy, there are a few other forums that are focused on those topics. For example, proaforum.com.

Happy posting!

Thanks for that info on posting from files.........I should give it a go sometime, but,right now I need to go and haul my 23ft proa out of the mangrove mud-berth and go anchor in the harbour channel, waiting for a trial sail with a prospective new owner. So If we get some pics while sailing, it might be worthwhile posting them here.
As for posting on the other proa forums: Sure!, some of them are still ticking on.

[jcudak]

I think Bernd Kohler's designs are pretty cool (I am now in the middle of a Duo480 catamaran biuld). Here is an interesting Cat/Proa design.

[Lugalong]

I think Bernd Kohler's designs are pretty cool (I am now in the middle of a Duo480 catamaran biuld). Here is an interesting Cat/Proa design.

This'Cataproa has potential to lose that typical painted tea box character of a plywood planked catamaran, without losing much in simplicity of the design, but perhaps at the expense of a little more weight. wooden spars and trim could make quite a difference to the character of such a craft...I think

[Gary Dierking]

Fifty nine feet of proa loveliness with Marshallese style crossbeams and Americas Cup bows. http://imgur.com/a/0B2vi

[wtarzia]

And standing headroom -- rare for a proa :-) -- Wade

[Woxbox]

Wow. And they got this far in 10 weeks? Remarkable. I hope he's allowed to enter the race.

[RKDJONES]

I'd like some feedback on an idea:
I had this idea for modifying my Triak, inspired by the International Sailing Canoe with its sliding seat. I have a single aka and no ability to get out of the cockpit to counterweight the boat. What about an aka that can slide back and forth in a sleeve. For example I could have an overall 8' beam. Each ama could be 4' from centerline, or adjusted to leeward ama is 6' and windward ama is 2' from centerline. Tacking might be an interesting maneuver. Robert

[upchurchmr]

One of the Herrishoffs had the same idea.
I've never seen it in action
Friction might be an issue trying to get the aka to slide.
You might need some way to get some real force to move it.

I'd be a little concerned about how far back the ama's are. Moving them out (effectively) might give you more of an issue with a diagonal capsize when reaching.

[Woxbox]

It could certainly work, but the question is, which is simpler -- to slide the amas back and forth with every tack and jibe, or to simply build them so they can each slide out as separate parts and stay there? This latter solution has been done countless times. For a sliding unit, here's something on a big scale:

[tink]

My question would be WHY WHY WHY, the Triak seams like a really cool boat from the pen of a top designer - I fear you will create Frankenstein's monster. I would build something new, simple and cheap to test.

It is do able, the IC seat works well with just wood running on Tufnell. That said with the beam of the Triak you don't have much 'bury' of the seat so the structure needs careful consideration. I only had mine slip inwards a once or twice when at a silly angle.

It it will be horrible to tack. One reason will be the sail. Compare the fully battened IC sail to the Triak one. When I was learning to IC I went in on the tacks frequently and then one day I was told to pull on the Cunningham. The boat became a completely different beast. You want the sail to be giving lift on one tack and the the other the change just like a switch. The Triak sail will just flip flop about and put you in.

Somewhere on the net in the last 6 months someone put up pictures of what you describe but the leeward ama fits neatly in a recess I the main hull. Will try and find pictures. It was a much wider boat. The seat in the IC has a lot of buoyancy and acts like stabilisers plus is wedge shaped to give lift on touch down.

IMHO you need to really think what it is you want to achieve, this is a valid project but the donor boat is not a good starting point. If you just want the trill of sitting on a sliding seat (an awesome experience) consider buying an IC or build a sailing canoe.

[upchurchmr]

Dave,

I don't think Slingshot actually tacked the aka while sailing.

[RKDJONES]

My question would be WHY WHY WHY, the Triak seams like a really cool boat from the pen of a top designer - I fear you will create Frankenstein's monster. I would build something new, simple and cheap to test.
IMHO you need to really think what it is you want to achieve, this is a valid project but the donor boat is not a good starting point. If you just want the trill of sitting on a sliding seat (an awesome experience) consider buying an IC or build a sailing canoe.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Triak has insufficient righting moment with small amas and an 8' beam. Thom Davis doubled the volume of the amas and says it improved its performance significantly. It is not a performance sailboat, but a very light-weight sailing kayak. I don't want a sliding seat, I want to increase the righting moment, and yet keep the boat compact and light enough to beach it at typical island campsites designed for kayaks. And I don't have tons of time to mess with it. There are many ways to do this. A sliding aka with an overall beam of 8' might be one solution. I understand its limitations due to sail design. The IC was just the inspiration for the idea. Robert

[RKDJONES]

It could certainly work, but the question is, which is simpler -- to slide the amas back and forth with every tack and jibe, or to simply build them so they can each slide out as separate parts and stay there? This latter solution has been done countless times. For a sliding unit, here's something on a big scale:

Kind of cool. The Slingshot sliding aka is more akin to the sliding seat of the International Canoe. Their configuration is that of a Pacific Proa (ama to windward); I was thinking something along the lines of an Atlantic Proa (ama to leeward). Moving an ama in and out under sail seems like a real challenge from a center cockpit facing forward. I know Frank Smoot has swing-arm akas that can be used to adjust the beam while under sail from a center cockpit. And with independent port and starboard akas one could adjust them for the point of sail I guess. If I were building a boat from scratch I would consider that design but don't see it working with the existing Triak amas. Robert

[upchurchmr]

When Thom Davis doubled the size of the ama can he still drive it underwater?
If so you might just consider further increasing the size of the ama until you get the volume to be at least 100% of boat, sailor, and baggage, so you can develop the full power of the rig.
If that is not enough then you need to increase width as you proposed.

IMHO, short ama's will also inhibit you from developing full sail power.
You might think about doubling the length of the ama, putting in a fwd aka along with increasing the volume.

If you still need/ want more width for increased moment you might look at a different aka geometry.
Frank Smoots designs with folding akas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8kU...ature=youtu.be
Metz Trica 540 (a similar folding method) http://www.metzboats.de/htm/designs/multihulls/trika540/trika540.htm

OOPS, I see you know about Smoot, etc.
But if you were thinking about sliding the aka to either side you are throwing away the original aka.

[RKDJONES]

I don't like the existing wing aka. At 20lbs (9kg) it is inexplicably heavy, and weight is critical to me. The existing connection between aka and ama quite frankly makes me nervous and doubling the size of the amas seems like it would create more stress on that junction. Thom seems to think it is holding up allright. I've also considered a more traditional long higher volume ama and two akas, but it is more work and time is short. So I am leaning toward something that doesn't take much time, uses the existing amas, and doesn't increase weight (I think I can make a longer aka that weighs no more than the existing 8 foot aka). I would also think that a longer aka will decrease the forces on the aka-ama junction. Except for the issues with compactness, I couldn't identify any real drawbacks to a wider beam. Robert

[tink]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Triak has insufficient righting moment with small amas and an 8' beam. Thom Davis doubled the volume of the amas and says it improved its performance significantly. It is not a performance sailboat, but a very light-weight sailing kayak. I don't want a sliding seat, I want to increase the righting moment, and yet keep the boat compact and light enough to beach it at typical island campsites designed for kayaks. And I don't have tons of time to mess with it. There are many ways to do this. A sliding aka with an overall beam of 8' might be one solution. I understand its limitations due to sail design. The IC was just the inspiration for the idea. Robert

Thinking about doubling the volume of the amas, I have estimated their buoyancy to be very approximately 40kg. On the 2.6m beam that gives a righting moment of 40 x 1.3 = 52kgm. To get the same righting moment with an 80kg crew means he needs to move outboard by a mere 52/80 = 0.65m or just over two feet.
Now depending on agility it would easily be possible to achieve this with a simple hiking plank or just some small wings




Just an idea and obviously both require local reinforcements

One word of caution whatever you do the mast will only be designed for the production righting moment and increasing it will put certain stress on the structure.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RKDJONES]

Thinking about doubling the volume of the amas, I have estimated their buoyancy to be very approximately 40kg. On the 2.6m beam that gives a righting moment of 40 x 1.3 = 52kgm. To get the same righting moment with an 80kg crew means he needs to move outboard by a mere 52/80 = 0.65m or just over two feet.
Now depending on agility it would easily be possible to achieve this with a simple hiking plank or just some small wings
Just an idea and obviously both require local reinforcements

One word of caution whatever you do the mast will only be designed for the production righting moment and increasing it will put certain stress on the structure.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thom Davis and I talked at length about hiking out, and that would solve the problem to be sure. But I haven't come up with any good ideas about how to hike out on this boat. Thom opted for bigger amas and hasn't broken the mast yet. It is actually a pretty tough little boat given its weight. And I think the vaka design is very nice. Robert

[Woxbox]

So what's the deal with the foil option? Anyone tried them?

[upchurchmr]

I believe that is the earlier model.
Current model does not have them, I think.
I watched a video of an early model, trying to get the boat moving from a start in a heavy wind, the float was overpowered.
It just got pushed under, the boat didn't move, and the foil never got a chance to start working.

I'm sure that was just one set of conditions.

[tink]

Thom Davis and I talked at length about hiking out, and that would solve the problem to be sure. But I haven't come up with any good ideas about how to hike out on this boat. Thom opted for bigger amas and hasn't broken the mast yet. It is actually a pretty tough little boat given its weight. And I think the vaka design is very nice. Robert

I can't argue with you there, it was just an idea.

If you are set on new amas and want a quick, cheap and easy build a simple box section with chine logs is hard to beat. I describe the construction in post 279 in this thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ost5117565ibed one way of doing this in post 279 in this thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...65#post5117565

I wouldn't use any Epoxy and with a bit of good design and planing you could knock a set up in a day plus extra for painting

Caution again, they will need buoyancy an the bow or a pivot to freely pitch or the bow will bury and load things up nasty.

[RKDJONES]

You bring up an interesting point about a pivoting ama. I have wondered about whether one could just let the ama pivot freely around the axis of the aka (for a single aka boat). Clearly, one would not want a wave-piercing bow but rather a buoyant bow on the ama. And it would probably drag a lot if completely submerged. I've never seen or known of a completely freely pivoting ama. Robert

[upchurchmr]

The Gougeons have done several boats with a pivoting ama.
I believe Adreniline is now in Australia and Meade Gougeon has a canoe/ tri he sails in the Everglades challenge.

[tink]

You bring up an interesting point about a pivoting ama. I have wondered about whether one could just let the ama pivot freely around the axis of the aka (for a single aka boat). Clearly, one would not want a wave-piercing bow but rather a buoyant bow on the ama. And it would probably drag a lot if completely submerged. I've never seen or known of a completely freely pivoting ama. Robert

There is a very similar boat to Gougeon's here http://sailnaway.blogspot.co.uk/2016_02_01_archive.html
Have a root around this blog there are great videos with the ama pivoting in waves. Just as a further idea a simple extension to the aka would be supper quick and give you more righting moment, again just thinking out loud.

[Woxbox]

You bring up an interesting point about a pivoting ama. I have wondered about whether one could just let the ama pivot freely around the axis of the aka (for a single aka boat). Clearly, one would not want a wave-piercing bow but rather a buoyant bow on the ama. And it would probably drag a lot if completely submerged. I've never seen or known of a completely freely pivoting ama. Robert

The fastest solution is a pivoting, wave-piercing ama. But the akas need to be high to clear the wavetops, and the relationship between the center of buoyancy of the ama and the pivot is critical. Or, to look at it another way, if the pivot point is already locked in by the design of the boat, you may not have the ability to put the center of buoyancy of the amas where you really want them.

The biggest shortcoming of the Triak design that I see is that the amas are carried well aft. If they serve as low-volume stabilizers, you can get away with this. But fast and powerful trimarans sail on one ama and the rest of the boat goes along for the ride. If the center of buoyancy of the ama is too far aft, as the displacement shifts from the vaka to the ama as the boat heels, the boat will assume a nose-down position. The opposite needs to occur, which is accomplished by having the center of buoyancy of the akas somewhat forward of the center of buoyancy in the vaka.

If the amas are to pivot, the geometry gets even more complex, because the center of bouyancy of the individual hulls and the pivot point all have to work together to keep the boat and the individual amas at their optimum attitudes throughout the range of heeling angles. It does get complicated.

[BobBill]

So what's the deal with the foil option? Anyone tried them?

Looks a hair wet...???

[upchurchmr]

Doesn't your hair always get wet?