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Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #211
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind View Post
    The vast majority of the graphite/epoxy is immersed and for much of the day, it never sees direct sunlight that would bake the unprotected surface....... You would certainly not want to flip the boat over and leave it like that in the sun for any period of time, or it could experience the less than fun issues expressed above.
    So for cartopping this boat in the summer during the 1 hour trip to the beach from my house, looks like graphite isn't an option then...



    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Peter, I'm going to glue a couple sacraficial lengths of 1"x1" 'keels' on the bottom and let them take all the wear and tear when beaching and launching.
    The 1x1 "keels" are great for land and flat rocks, but I have them on my cartopper and they don't really help for the things I usually smash into (alot of submerged old pilings in the shoal areas I sail, both wood and concrete). These are the only reason I decided to glass the bottom at all. Haha of course if I just stayed in the boating lanes and didn't "explore" at high speeds during low tide... but what fun is that then?

  2. #212
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Trevor, it's a 21 hour ride from missouri to florida? that's almost the same distance as from NJ to florida, I am surprised... I guess we both have the same dream of cruising the keys in our home built boats huh? Man, you got me thinking of the keys again, and we're supposed to be getting 4-8 in of snow here tonight... sigh... :-)

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    ...I...usually smash into alot of submerged old pilings in the shoal areas I sail, both wood and concrete...
    You might want to double the thickness of the bottom. I may do that, too.

  4. #214
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Trevor, it's a 21 hour ride from missouri to florida? that's almost the same distance as from NJ to florida, I am surprised... I guess we both have the same dream of cruising the keys in our home built boats huh? Man, you got me thinking of the keys again, and we're supposed to be getting 4-8 in of snow here tonight... sigh... :-)
    I've done it in less before. Maybe 17-18 hours, but I was 15 years younger and didn't think much of speed limits or consequences. I also drove it straight through a few times. You get a little punchy after working an eight hour day, then deciding to drive 20 plus hours after the five o'clock bell tolls.

    Sailing The Keys would be a blast. It's been 20 years since I've been down there. My family did a lot of spear fishing and lobster diving during the summer months. Mostly around Big Pine, Cudjoe and Summerland Keys. I had a great uncle with a house/stilt cabin on the airstrip at Summerland Key. It was sparse living, a lot like camping, but a blast to head off to every summer for a few weeks at a time. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/1223521...7623447225414/)

    I'd love to take my wife and daughter down there. I'd also like to sail around my old stomping grounds - Pine Island Sound and the backwaters around the mouth of the Caloosahatchee River.

    Trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Wow, 20 years? I lived in Miami on and off during/between college, and go down about once a year with my girlfriend, we stay with her family. But the Keys are def where it's at. I am trying to figure out a way to leave a boat down there, maybe quick build a summer breeze or something, so I have it when I fly down, because that drive kills off two vacation days each way for me...

    The last time I lived in Miami was the summer of 2009, and I had my motorcycle. We went for a ride from coral gables over the bridges/canals to Miami Beach. On the way back we stopped at a small park that was waterside on one of those barrier islands between miami beach and the mainland. We sat under a coconut tree and just took in the beautiful air and the clear water. I lit up a fresh cigar. Just as we were getting ready to leave we heard a wet, blowing noise. It was a pod of dolphins just swimming nonchalantly by, maybe 5 feet from us! A baby dolphin was among them, swimming with its mother! The wildlife of south florida is just incredible, and seeing it on a boat must be nirvana...

  6. #216
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Nice catches in those pics btw, especially the shark!

  7. #217
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Nice catches in those pics btw, especially the shark!
    We used to do a lot of shark fishing. Not so much in The Keys, but in the Caloosahatchee River. Mostly black tips and bull sharks. We'd catch a half dozen on a good day. Interspersed with a lot of gafftop catfish. Some shark are pretty good eating, but you have to soak the meat ahead of time to get the urea out. Maybe in vinegar, I can't remember off hand. We were shark fishing once and hooked an eight foot spotted eagle ray that towed our 17 foot aluminum fishing boat down river on an incoming tide, for a couple of miles. It took hours for my dad, brother and I to take turns reeling it in. Once it was under the boat we finally got to see what we had. The boat was six feet wide and there was a foot of wing tip on either side of the boat. It was huge. In a hurry, my brother dropped the gaff, scaring the ray and it broke the 60lb test line like it was nothin'. And away it went. There was no way we could have gotten it into the boat and in hindsight I'm much happier that it got away. Other than show it off, I have no idea what we would have done with it.

    Sorry, get me started down memory lane and I can ramble.

    Your dolphin story is great. It's cool to have such a close brush with nature. I hear ya on the drive time/vacation day killing. We spend half our vacation just trying to get down there.

    Trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Anyway, back to outrigger stuff. Glad to have gotten one bottom screwed and pasted down last night. I hope to have the second half done this evening. It's all measured out, predrilled with screws started in every hole, just waiting for me to get home and slather it up in glue and whip out the cordless screwdriver. I may get started on my iakos/beams this evening, too. At least committing to a type of connection to the amas and whether I will go straight or curved with them. Probably something like Mr. Dierking's Tarawa...
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ne5_ig7nna...MG_00521-t.jpg

    Trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I'm working on the iakos myself tonight. Gonna do hollow box ten footers. I realized that my outrigger is so tall there is no need for any curve in the beam, I'm happy about that, keeps it simple.

    I still am not sure about the ama-iako connection though... I feel like If I fasten some 2x2x6's to the top of my outrigger I can just bolt the iako's to them. To keep flexible I would only use one bolt. But gary's wa'apa connection, with a dowel at the end of the iako plugging into a vertical hardwood board sticking out of the outrigger looks pretty simple too... I think I'll decide once I finish the cross beams...

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    During the 2009 Everglades Challenge my partner's double-outrigger had a leak we had no idea how to find (turned out to be a cracked through-hull fitting that went under water with the boat's unusual expedition load), so we had to abort at the end of the first day. We pushed the canoe for the last quarter mile through the Tampa Bay shallows near Anna Marie Island with a dolphin swimming around us. I was very glad it was "just" a dolphin! -- Wade

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    ...I feel like If I fasten some 2x2x6's to the top of my outrigger I can just bolt the iako's to them. To keep flexible I would only use one bolt. But gary's wa'apa connection, with a dowel at the end of the iako plugging into a vertical hardwood board sticking out of the outrigger looks pretty simple too... I think I'll decide once I finish the cross beams...
    --- I strongly support lashing everything, ama to akas, akas to vaka. With good geometry and well-placed cleats, lashing is fast, strong, and flexible. There is almost no argument against lashings. They can be VERY fast if you set them up as on the Flaquita outrigger, but in any event lashing ends being at least as fast as bolting when you count the time of alignment, dropping the wrench, etc. --Wade

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- I strongly support lashing everything, ama to akas, akas to vaka. With good geometry and well-placed cleats, lashing is fast, strong, and flexible. There is almost no argument against lashings. They can be VERY fast if you set them up as on the Flaquita outrigger, but in any event lashing ends being at least as fast as bolting when you count the time of alignment, dropping the wrench, etc. --Wade
    It's probably not best to mix and match either as I had an issue with my frankenhobie/tamanu in the '09 Texas 200. The outboard ends of the beams were bolted and the inboard ends were lashed. Not good mojo.

    Dan

  13. #223
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    peter,

    you mention the hight of your outrigger. are you talking about the ama/float hight? if so, with a straight iako/beam you might look at how the ulua connections are done. it's still a direct connection like you'd do with bolts, but it's done with lashing instead and would allow some flex under stress. the ulua ama/iako connects at an angle like the speced version of the wa'apa, but it wouldn't be difficult to fashion a flat version.

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ne5_ig7nna...-h/UluaAma.jpg

    trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    For any Aussies, sunday night on ABC1 "The Pacific" a programme on pacific migrations, their big canoes and outriggers, navigation, currents etc. Trailer showed snippets of old film with palm frond proa sails etc.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    wow I wish I lived in Australia... another snowstorm here in the northeast US... while you Aussies watch excellent programming! Although hehe better to watch "Pacific" than the Ashes no? ;-)

    Trevor, great idea, how did I not think about that? The ulua style connections are perfect for my high up ama!

    Anyway, it's funny how sometimes you can build a complicated hull, rigging, fiberglassing, sailmaking, you feel you have all these basic supposed "skills", and then you can't do the most simple, obvious task. I have spent the last two days after work trying to cut straight 3.5 in strips of plywood for the iakos. Can't do it! First I tried on my table saw. Couldn't cut it straight, kept wandering. Then I set up a guide/jig on the table saw. Still not straight. The next day I tried with a handheld circular saw, using a 4x4 beam as a guide. The beam flexed in the middle and I have a concave strip!!! (I couldn't use the guide because the ply is scrap and doesn't have a straight edge) Haha tonight I'm just gonna take out the handy jigsaw, cut outside the lines and hand plane it straight... what a waste of 4 hours though... I blame it on the lack of proper educational programming in the states :-)
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    ... I have spent the last two days after work trying to cut straight 3.5 in strips of plywood for the iakos. Can't do it! ...
    --- Just lay out your lines, use a Japanese pull-saw cutting just outside the lines, then clean up with a freshly honed plane. I also use skilsaw or sabresaw, cutting outside lines, then clean up with plane. Not that much longer to do and the plywood will always have an undamaged edge.--Wade

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    You can also make a jig to use with your circular saw by gluing/screwing a 1x2 or 1x4 along the 8' edge of a piece
    of plywood and then putting the motor-side of the saw's shoe up against the 1x and cutting along the whole length
    using the 1x as a guide. There's your jig. To use it, mark each end of the piece you want to cut, place that cut edge of the jig on the marks (compensating for the saw kerf, if necessary), clamp each end to the piece to be
    cut and then run the saw along/against the 1x again. Make sure the edge of that 1x is on a straight line when you glue it / screw it down since it's your guide. I suggested using a 1x4 in case the height of you clamps interferes
    with the saw motor passing over them.

    I usually cut lengths like that by putting the sheet on the floor supported every couple of feet by scrap material and
    set the depth of the saw so it just slightly more than the thickness of the ply. I've had the same problem that you had with flex causing a concave line.

    I started a wa apa right after Thanksgiving so I've been getting inspiration from following you and trevor's builds. This is my first wooden boat build so it's taking me some time to sort through all the bevel stuff. I have been sailing
    a mono-hull canoe for about 10 years now but it's ... umm ... plastic

    - Rob

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Thanks rob, and welcome! I'm kind of amazed at how many people are building the Wa'apa at any given time. Which version are you doing? Post some pics!

    I've already decided not to waste any more time with jigs, haha I just have to do it the boatbuilding for dummies way, jigsaw and hand plane...

    or, maybe I should rephrase that, I'm doing it the way a "true craftsman" does it (because that's clearly what I am), with hand tools (the electric jigsaw is clearly a traditional hand tool) and no mechanical guidance. lol

    BTW I am building in stitch and glue partially just to avoid all that tricky beveling, which would naturally be cake for a "true craftsan" like me to do if I wanted to, but I don't.




    PS: Yes, I'm being facetious :-)
    Last edited by peterchech; 01-07-2011 at 02:18 PM.
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Kearney View Post
    I have been sailing
    a mono-hull canoe for about 10 years now but it's ... umm ... plastic

    - Rob

    No shame about plastic BTW I'm not one of those people who insists there's something "magical" about wooden boats. It's just an easy (at least hard chined boats are anyway) and economical (for one-off construction) medium to work with, that creates some original and beautiful results. And won't delaminate over time. And won't stress fracture. And is lighter than a solid FG or plastic hull. And... actually, I love wooden boats, but again, nothing magical, they are just extremely practical IMHO
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    I just have to do it the boatbuilding for dummies way, jigsaw and hand plane...
    hey! i resemble that remark!

    not more than a half an hour ago i was standing in the garage on my lunch hour, doing just that. i got the bottoms on over the past couple evenings and started to fair up the edges. had to take a jigsaw and freehand around my earlier rough cut, up next to the hulls. i managed not to take out any gouges that would require filling later. i then faired up one of the hulls by hand plane before having to come back to the office. i'm still shaking sawdust off.

    the right one is faired a bit, the left is still pretty rough.


    trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    hey! i resemble that remark!

    not more than a half an hour ago i was standing in the garage on my lunch hour, doing just that. i got the bottoms on over the past couple evenings and started to fair up the edges. had to take a jigsaw and freehand around my earlier rough cut, up next to the hulls. i managed not to take out any gouges that would require filling later. i then faired up one of the hulls by hand plane before having to come back to the office. i'm still shaking sawdust off.

    the right one is faired a bit, the left is still pretty rough.


    trevor
    Looking good, Trevor. Making me envious that I haven't time at the moment for my own project. I've always found the belt sander to be the best tool for this job. But some people just don't like belt sanders. Noisy things.
    Last edited by JimD; 01-07-2011 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    thanks jim! i need to get a belt sander. i built my last boat with just a crappy palm sander (i think that's what it's called). i was planning on using it again on this boat. probably not the most efficient, but it fits my budget.

    peter, i plan to glass tape all external seams and the bottom few inches. i'd not thought of a router. i was just going to use the sander and maybe make a sanding board to make sure it was pretty even. i really don't know a thing about power tools. the EP was my first woodworking project, ever. this boat is my second. does a router go on a drill? or is it a whole different animal?

    and rob, welcome to the conversation.

    trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I never knew what a router was until recently myself, it's basically like a wide, powerful drill that has a guard which prevents it from "drilling". The router bit cuts the wood horizontally instead of vertically. There is also something called a plunge router, which sort of can drill also, but that's unnecessary. A router bit spins at high speed, with almost no wobble, and cuts any shape you want. For example, if you have ever seen wooden moldings with intricate shapes, a router did that.

    I actually just saw a small router set, with a router table (necessary for doing long strips of wood), for $120 at lowes, a real deal. Try craigslist too. Honestly, if you don't have one, it's prob not worth buying one just for the chines on this one boat. But in the long run they are so useful! I used an old one of my father's to make the strips for a birdsmouth mast, to do the bead and cove strips for surfboard rails, to cut perfectly round holes for the mast, and recently to round all the chines in my wa'apa. I will prob use it to round the gunwhales and iakos too.

    I'm sure you know this, so just for any new builders out there, the radius of a fiberglass joint needs to be at least 1/4in (most agree) for it to follow smoothly and retain strength, so some significant rounding is needed on the wa'apa chines.
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    thanks jim! i need to get a belt sander. i built my last boat with just a crappy palm sander (i think that's what it's called). i was planning on using it again on this boat. probably not the most efficient, but it fits my budget.

    peter, i plan to glass tape all external seams and the bottom few inches. i'd not thought of a router. i was just going to use the sander and maybe make a sanding board to make sure it was pretty even. i really don't know a thing about power tools. the EP was my first woodworking project, ever. this boat is my second. does a router go on a drill? or is it a whole different animal?

    and rob, welcome to the conversation.

    trevor
    There was a thread a while back started by an anti belt sander. It was quite a rant what with the pro belt sanders and the anti belt sanders squared off flinging wood chips at each other for a page or two. Another 'only on the woodenboat forum' moment. They can be a tricky tool to use and you can ruin a perfectly good piece of wood with them until you get good with it. For smoothing epoxy/glass on plywood nothing works like a random orbital sander, though. Imho of course.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I've only used those 1/4 sheet palm sanders. You've found the random orbital to be better for fairing glass/plywood? I have a lot of sanding to do, and wouldn't mind investing in a sander that is better and less time consuming...
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    I've only used those 1/4 sheet palm sanders. You've found the random orbital to be better for fairing glass/plywood? I have a lot of sanding to do, and wouldn't mind investing in a sander that is better and less time consuming...
    I can cover a lot of ground (fiberglassed plywood) with one of these or equivalent by another brand name



    Make sure the epoxy is fully cured and thoroughly washed of any blush and use a grit a little coarser than intuition suggests. I usually start with 80 grit and a light touch. Someone else might think that is too coarse. I never go finer than 150 grit on epoxy using the ROS. Save the finer grit for sanding bare wood. The ROS will be a lot faster than the palm sander. Don't use a belt sander for this job of smoothing flat surfaces.
    Last edited by JimD; 01-07-2011 at 09:50 PM.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Thanks for the welcome, guys!

    Peter,
    I'm going to do the 16', 2 piece version - maybe throw a 4' center section in
    later. Probably straight iako's with a floaty ama like yours. I've got a 47 sq.
    ft. balance lug and 36 sq. ft. Opti sprit-sail that I use on the canoe that I
    might try setting up ketch-style like Wade's. I've also got some windsurfing
    sails that I might try at some point.

    I've had Gary's book since it came out but have been somewhat ambivalent
    about building a multi-hull - mostly due to expected extra setup time. It really
    is the best design for me to build though since I'm building in the basement
    and the only way it's coming out of there is up the stairs in pieces. I'm using
    mostly cheap, readily available materials like 5.2 mm Sandeply plywood from
    HD (I'm not confident enough to take a saw to a $75 sheet of okoume at
    this point) and PL Premium for glue. I'll probably glass the bottom and over
    the chines an inch. I hadn't picked up from the pictures that you were going
    S&G with yours, Peter. That's definitely got to be faster. I've got to stop
    fooling around with trying to get the bevels right and move on. "Cut your
    best and caulk the rest" as I've heard said.

    Trevor,
    Those hulls are really looking good. I'm probably going to go with flat decks
    and Michalak-style hatches like you mentioned. May go with straight rather
    than flared stems - I've got both types cut. I'd have to lose the above deck
    portion of the flared stem to get the hull out of the basement.

    I'll try to figure out how to get some pictures on here at some point.

    - Rob

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Pictures:
    1. upload them to somewhere on the web. I'd use wikiproa since it would be appreciated there as well
    2. in your message here click the little tree icon next to the film strip
    3. in the dialogue box paste in the http address of your image...
    4. which can be obtained by right clicking the image at the hosting loacation
    5. and cutting and pasting it in
    6. viola!

    Dan--who has made some decisions about his double tamanu project & hoping to get going next weekend.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    So Dan... what decisions did you make about your double tamanu?

    As for myself, I was finally able to saw straight cuts using a handheld circular saw this weekend with a guide on it. So I finished up the plywood pieces for the iakos. But blocked them to 10ft loa with some titebond III, letting them dry overnight:



    Using 1/4 in ply web and 3/4 in timber for the outrigger iakos as per Gary's plans, no tapering at the ends though because I want them to do double duty if needed for the catamaran version of my project. Also built a slightly larger version, 4.5inx4.5in, using 1/2 in ply webbing with 3/4 in timber, to be used as an extra cross beam for the 20 ft catamaran version, especially if one day I want to put a stayed sail on the crossbeam, it should be strong enough. I also ripped down some WRC 4x4's to make the timber strips for the iakos. I thought I would waste alot of expensive wood ripping wobbly lines, but my father in law came up with a very functional jig using some old one by's and some clamps which worked really well:


    Ran the strips through the planer, then drilled out a few knots that appeared and filled them, popping bubbles in the filler and overfilling the holes to allow for shrinkage (siiiiigh more sanding later :-):


    While all this dried I began to sand the hulls, which are finally no longer tacky (only got one hull section done though). I know that alot of folks mix up fairing compound (or even just use bondo) and smear that all over to get a smooth finish, which means less sanding (yay!!!)... I use titanium dioxide as filler for my epoxy (for no other reason than that I can get it really cheap), and I was thinking that fairing compound is just epoxy and filler, but not peanut butter thick, rather more of a thick gravy consistency. Anyone have experience with using epoxy as fairing compound? Hope you guys all had a good weekend too...
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Kearney View Post
    I'm going to do the 16', 2 piece version - maybe throw a 4' center section in
    later.
    BTW rob my center sections are 4 ft, with no rocker, to get out of the basement. I think (hope) 20 ft is a very manageable sized multihull for tight spaces/cartopping, without sacrificing much speed or carrying capacity.
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

  31. #241
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    St. Charles, IL
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    1,139

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    So Dan... what decisions did you make about your double tamanu?
    I'm going to make it into a lighter but high volume Hobie 21SC with a hard deck, front tramp, wings, & H18 rig. Not sure yet if I'll bond the beams to the hulls like Mike Schacht's Beachcruiser

    or lash them like Gary's design shows.

    Dan

  32. #242
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    northern new jersey, usa
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    796

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    How do u plan on making the wings, laminate? (I love wings on a small cat btw so comfortable and practical)
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

  33. #243
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
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    28,085

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    A Mill Creek 16.5


  34. #244
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    springfield, missouri, usa
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    659

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Jim, that's an elegant looking little tri setup.

    Trevor

  35. #245
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
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    28,085

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    Jim, that's an elegant looking little tri setup.

    Trevor
    Yes, although its definitely for convertable use so that the amas can be removed and the boat still used for paddling. Mine will have much higher sides and straight crossbeams.

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