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Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #1961
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by slidercat View Post
    Yeah, I'm not under any illusions that I'm going to place high, though I would like to beat some of the Hobie AIs-- and I think that's possible, if for no better reason that with two of us and a dry berth, we should be able to make time when the solo AI guys are having to rest. I may be surprised, but it seems unlikely that it will be much rougher than the second day of the Florida 120 a couple years ago. That was a slog to windward with 20 knot winds and a 30 mile fetch-- though the chop was chaotic because the Sound is long and narrow, with lots of points extending a ways into the channel, so that the chop was reflected and bounced into a pretty agitated state. Give me longer ocean seas any day.

    If a lot of the course is to windward, I think that will favor us, partly because we'll be much dryer than most of the fleet, and partly because Slider does so well to windward. The one thing I really worry about is a very light air race. If that happens, we're probably doomed to not finish.
    You and a lot of other sailboats I would suspect. Keeping it fun is important, whatever that means to you and your wife. I'm excited to see you go for it!

    Dan

  2. #1962
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Best of luck, Ray! I'll be following your progress. What is your Watertribe name? (still Slider?). As for wetness and freeboard.... I was only in there for a day and most of it was doldrums, but with two rough section at each end of that. My 24 inch deep hull, reducing to 19 inch at bow and stern, was fairly dry, and when not, it all washed into the footwell. I tend to get wet from the bow and leeboard spray, which could be stopped if I were not so lazy about getting to a couple of spray dodgers.

    I am almost always sailing in a steep coastal chop here at home, and a foot of the bow does often go into steeper waves (more often when I used the jib or the big balanced lug whose taller mast and more area aloft definitely produced more bow-down attitude). I have often thought I needed a higher bow (like the panels used to raise the bow sheer on the Tamanu); any water that the various impediments of the foremast partners does not divert washes down the 'sleep deck' into my aft foot well. On an exciting day there is always 3 gallons sloshing in the footwell. I bungee the bilgepump in there, but if things are fun, I can't take hands off tiller or sheet to pump!

    What saves my comfort ratio a little is being able to sit tall in my cockpit, in kitchen-chair ergonomic. Then no more than my ankles are getting wet all the time (that's what boots are for). For upper body parts, that's what Gortex is for, and some spray dodgers or a full length side seat on the ama-side would get me free of even the parka. I also find that waterproof breathable pants are good for outrigger sailing in the spray (I use the ones found at the backpacking stores with side-zippers, to ventilate when the ride is dry).

    Ray's cockpit seating, a little like mine, may offer some fatigue reduction, though I am not sure what his spray situation is in either hull. His deck must stop the most of it.

    I think this offers a little advantage over the Hobie AI boats, other things being equal. Those boats are often wet, I daresay. Most of the AI people seem to be wearing their drysuits full time. I wore mine 24 hours straight and it was not terribly fun but I was too tired by the end to take it off :-), and a big black blob on the SW horizon that night made me nervous (turned out to bejust mist preceding a little squally blow next morning (any way, if you have to have drysuit, spring extra for a 100% Gortex one).

    Well, we'll see! Let the adventure begin! Damn, I'm so bummed I won't be there! -- Wade
    Last edited by wtarzia; 02-09-2012 at 09:37 AM.

  3. #1963

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Wade, I was sorry to hear that you couldn't get leave this year-- I'd looked forward to meeting you. We could have talked about writing, and the new frontiers in publishing.

    We won't have drysuits. If we'd been required to have them, I probably couldn't have afforded to go. I emailed Chief and asked, before the refund date.

    I've never taken any solid water into the cockpits, though I've been hit by the occasional bit of spray at speed in a big chop. When I was drawing Slider, and talking about the process online, I heard from various self-appointed experts that I'd need spray skirts to keep water out of the hulls. I thought that was a little silly, but I guess I was sufficiently influenced that I did put duckboards in the bilge, to keep my feet out of any water that might make it aboard. I never actually get any water aboard unless it's raining. We'll carry decent foul weather gear for that, and I've built a little removable cabin for the port cockpit, so we'll have a dry berth for the off watch. It fits down over the cockpit coaming like a Griffith hatch, so should be pretty dry. I have to turn sideways to get through the hatch, but once inside, there's comfortable sitting headroom-- part of the berth flat folds up to make a seat. It's kind of ugly, and it adds weight, but we're trying to cut down on weight everywhere else we can. Because it's so small and I didn't want it to feel claustrophobic, I put in lots of windows and a clear main hatch.

    The port cockpit, from which we'll be sailing, has room for both seats, and a little bimini to keep the sun off.

    I think it was Dan who on seeing pictures of Slider under construction, remarked on what a big boat she was, for a 16 foot cat. I have about 26 inches of freeboard midships, for example.

    It will be very interesting to see how she does. In all likelihood, she'll do better than her crew. That's usually the way of it.

  4. #1964
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by slidercat View Post
    ... there's comfortable sitting headroom-- part of the berth flat folds up to make a seat. ...I think it was Dan who on seeing pictures of Slider under construction, remarked on what a big boat she was, for a 16 foot cat. I have about 26 inches of freeboard midships, for example. ...
    --- I missed these developments. Interesting! And your 26 inch freeboard (or hull depth?) sounds great. -- Wade

  5. #1965
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind View Post
    I, too, like his boat, Dan... but, it's gonna be one heck of a wet ride with that low freeboard setup. That is gonna give Roger serious saturation fits over a long journey unless he's the kind of guy who finds that type of sailing to be very comfortable. They're out there (Lumpy/Bumpy/Smyth, etc.) but the typical old dude who engages the Tribe EC is gonna find a wild and wet rid to be tiring, to say the least....
    --- I didn't know about that boat. Very interesting, especially the folding system. I hope it is strong enough. Those inflatable amas are very buoyant, so a gust is going to put some stress on the beam system. Wet, probably, but if he can go fast, he will be wet a shorter time. Look at Randy Smyth's tri -- he sits on a board with no back rest for the whole ride, but he is fast enough to make that have to last for only 24-35 hours with one quick nap in there, a time span in which most in-shape people might endure discomfort well enough. Something tells me, though, he's going to have to endure 3 days at least (My main discomfort was the life-cushion I sat on, which is fine for 5 hours of a cruise, but I found very bad in the latter half of my 22 hour stint. Protect those butts! I was stupid for not finding a way to spend a whole day in my boat before the EC). -- Wade

  6. #1966
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan St Gean View Post
    ...the low slung SOT vake makes them really wet.

    Here's a look at just how low slung the loaded AI is.


    Dan
    Ugh. No thanks. Maybe in Hawaii. But not coastal BC

  7. #1967

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- I missed these developments. Interesting! And your 26 inch freeboard (or hull depth?) sounds great. -- Wade
    That's freeboard. Hull depth is 10 inches more. Here's a snapshot I took when I was building, and because the coamings aren't on yet, you can get a better idea of how things are arranged. I think the coamings help a lot to keep the boat dry, because even when water makes it to the decks, it never spills inside.


  8. #1968
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by slidercat View Post
    That's freeboard. Hull depth is 10 inches more. Here's a snapshot I took when I was building, and because the coamings aren't on yet, you can get a better idea of how things are arranged. I think the coamings help a lot to keep the boat dry, because even when water makes it to the decks, it never spills inside. ...
    --- Wow, 36 inches depth amidships (or at the bow?), I have missed that, and the photo makes clear how big you hulls really are; I can better imagine the cabin thingie -- could you post a photo of that at some point? Anyway, this sounds great. If the packing is done well, you won't loose too much of that (I think your hulls flare almost dory style?), and I'll bet the boat will be generally comfortable. Bets off only at some of the dangerous passes and at Cape Romano Shoals in the wrong wind (neither of which I have experienced, only heard of; one of the factors in my abort decision last year was Imagining getting around the shoals in a bad wind without a rudder to help out, assuming the Caxambras Pass tide/wind would not allow cutting off the shoals). Oh, yeah, you do have some ideas about how to repair a rudder, right? I guess you have two and could sail on one if need be, but please I beg you be ready for rudder repair! :-) This haunts all multihulls in the EC -- Wade

  9. #1969
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Oh, yeah, you do have some ideas about how to repair a rudder, right? I guess you have two and could sail on one if need be, but please I beg you be ready for rudder repair! :-) This haunts all multihulls in the EC -- Wade
    He designed and built them, so I'm sure he has some ideas... However, after your experience, it pays to have not only a good inspection of all systems prior to starting, but after your experience it bears repeating!

    Dan

  10. #1970
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    [QUOTE=Dan St Gean;3304438]He designed and built them, so I'm sure he has some ideas... However, after your experience, it pays to have not only a good inspection of all systems prior to starting, but after your experience it bears repeating! ... /QUOTE]

    --- Hell, I now carry a replacement rudder blade in my cargo hold! :-) I always carried spare pintles/gudgeons/bolts/screws and an aluminum tube that could double as rudder linkage repair, but that wasn't the problem that arose (is it ever?). -- Wade

  11. #1971

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Wade, I'm reluctant to say I won't have any rudder trouble, because if I do say it, I will of a certainty be struck down by the catamaran gods for hubris. But Slider's 4th anniversary is coming up in April, and the only trouble I've had happened the first week, when one blade fell off because I hadn't gotten around to installing cotters on the pivot bolts. Since then, no trouble over a lot of miles. The setup is simple as simple can be; the blades are held flat to the stocks by a single stout bolt and fender washers. They kick back very reliably-- the mechanism is based on running the holddown line through a wooden block that is tensioned to increase its friction. The blades can be raised or lowered by yanking a toggled line. I guess if they both fall off, I might be able to steer with the yuloh I'm taking.

    Here's an early pic of the cabin. It's oogly, but it will be nice to have a dry berth and a place to put the chart plotter, which is a netbook with a hockey puck GPS receiver.



    It's secured by a line to a cleat fore and aft, and can be removed in a minute. The main hatch is a fold-forward one based on the Griffith design, and the whole cabin is sort of a Griffith hatch, because it fits down around the cockpit coaming. I'm putting a 30 watt solar panel on the cabin roof, and carrying a little motorcycle battery to power lights and stuff.

    I'm trying to keep the weight down as much as possible-- no cooler and I plan to replenish water at the checkpoints. Slider doesn't seem to mind a little overloading, but it makes the ride a bit wetter.

  12. #1972
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by slidercat View Post
    ... when one blade fell off because I hadn't gotten around to installing cotters on the pivot bolts. .....
    --- Well, that's what happened to me, basically, forgot to safety-wire the blade. Hey, I love that cabin. It actually looks good and I thought that was near impossble on a 16 foot long outrigger hull. What an interesting evolution. -- Wade

  13. #1973
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Ray, I like the look of the oogly cabin. Got a side view?


  14. #1974
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    .... be ready for rudder repair!...
    I don't have any real experience, but from what I've read, at least some outrigger canoe sailors - even though they have a rudder - carry either a steering oar or a paddle that can be used as a steering paddle.

    Dunno how that would play out with a catamaran, but it sounds reasonable to me for an outrigger canoe.

    One advantage of a catamaran: some backup in having 2 rudders.
    Last edited by PeteCress; 02-13-2012 at 04:53 PM.

  15. #1975
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteCress View Post
    I don't have any real experience, but from what I've read, at least some outrigger canoe sailors - even though they have a rudder - carry either a steering oar or a paddle that can be used as a steering paddle....
    --- Yes, absolutely, but I was thinking of the scenario, rudder breaks early, and you are faced with a few days of being constantly at the helm with a steering oar in the EC. OK with a large crew, as on a native proa and people born to it; not all that fun for one of us, maybe. You do not need to hit something or drop the blade. You could be beached in bad conditions and wave comes in and bashes the stern. This happened to me last fall as I streaked into the ramp in a high cross wind. I didn't get of the outrigger fast enough and a big wave drove in, hit the rudder, broke the tiller linkage, and bent a gudgeon pretty well. --Wade

  16. #1976
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    An interesting sail:

    The general shape was inspired by an old photo of a Vietnamese fishing boat. It’s got radial battens so it will close neatly like a fan for reefing, brailing, and lowering, but also so that it will hold the correct attitude toward the wind....My goal was simply to create an easily collapsible sail, and it needed that much roach to get up to 90 sq ft. Its performance is excellent, and sails closer to the wind than any of our other sails.
    http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=7384#more-7384 http://www.diy-tris.com/

  17. #1977

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    [QUOTE=JimD;3304929]Ray, I like the look of the oogly cabin. Got a side view?

    Jim, this is about as much side as I've got in the carport. It is oogly, no exaggeration.



    I've really been meaning to write a blog post on the thing, but I've been pretty busy getting ready for the EC, and other stuff.

    Anyway, the height in back was necessary to get sitting headroom. The boom does clear the cabin when the sail is hoisted. I'm going to have to remember to set up the topping lift before raising sail in blustery conditions.

    The bunk flats are sectional, so that the aft two segments can be pulled back and one forms a seat back leaning against the coamings. The forward two sections are set up so that the aft piece can be flipped up and will hold the netbook securely in the stringers that stiffen the flats. That also gives plenty of leg room, so you're sitting in an ergonomically comfortable position. The bunk is about 24 inches wide with a couple of self-inflating camp pads under the sleeper. I'm adding a cabin light and a telltale compass, so the watch below can keep an eye on the heading, just in case the watch on deck gets confused.

    It's definitely a kludge, but it only adds about 40 pounds to the payload. It's 1/4 inch stitch and glue ply, stiffened with stringers on top, and external stringers on the lower edge. That handle is to lift it off easily, and also to keep the hatch from opening too far and stressing the crappy carpentry. (The hatch corners are half-lapped, but before I added the handle, I flung it open one day and broke it.)

    We''l see how it works. The good thing is that it's easy to get rid of.

  18. #1978
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I still like it, Ray. But I'm curious why no big window facing forward.

  19. #1979

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I thought about doing that, but I couldn't figure out a good way to get ventilation and still have it be structurally simple and sound. Besides, when you're sitting in the seat below, the downward curvature of the cabin would cut off your view unless you crawled forward. The deck plate is a transparent one. and will be removed for all but really heavy weather. Still, you won't be able to see much over the beam.

    The cabin already adds a lot of windage, and I didn't want to screw up Slider's excellent windward ability any more than I had to, thus the semi-aerodynamic shape.

    I'm hoping to set up a way to steer from below, so we can keep going in the rain without getting wet, but I guess I'll have to veer from side to side occasionally to see what's ahead.

  20. #1980
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    Default Amas: Why Stern Shape

    This photo shows the shape in question: http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/wp-co...dification.jpg

    But it seems to appear on many, many hulls

    On my ama, it seems to make a lot of noise and I'm wondering what the downside is of a tapered shape - like that on a wave-piercing ama.

  21. #1981
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    Default Re: Amas: Why Stern Shape

    And, should the ama be the same shape as the main hull? Or maybe asked another way, can you mix the hull designs of amas and your main hull, a shapie style ama on a dory boat?

  22. #1982
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Sure. Gary's Ulua has a rounded v shaped hull & a round ama. His Tamanu and Wa'apa has a flat bottom and a v shaped ama. His newest design Va'motu has a flat bottomed hull and a rounded form with a deep forefoot. All work, but one has to decide what they like. Pete doesn't like the noise of the round ama shape. I didn't really like the splashes in trimaran mode when the ama would flop side to side in wakes, but didn't mind the noise. Wade prefers his deep v. I might be more drawn to a v shape although the simplicity of the angled shape on the Seaclipper 20 and the W17 has much to say for it.

    Dan

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    Default Re: Amas: Why Stern Shape

    Quote Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
    And, should the ama be the same shape as the main hull? Or maybe asked another way, can you mix the hull designs of amas and your main hull, a shapie style ama on a dory boat?


    My latest and now favorite ama is deep veed in the forefoot and rounded the rest of the way aft, with a generous rocker in the aft section to aid tacking and reduce drag when the canoe is heavily loaded aft. Seems very quiet so far.

  24. #1984
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    Default Re: Amas: Why Stern Shape

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dierking View Post
    My latest and now favorite ama is deep veed in the forefoot and rounded the rest of the way aft, with a generous rocker in the aft section to aid tacking and reduce drag when the canoe is heavily loaded aft. Seems very quiet so far.
    --- I wonder if the fine entry and deep V in the forefoot of Gary's new ama aids lateral resistance a little, too? Jim Brown mentions in one of his "Multihulls" memoirs (volume II I think) a native sailing dugout canoe built in Central America (east coast I think) that used no lateral resistance boards but got to windward well enough anyway. He attributed their sharp forefoot to that windward ability. -- Wade

  25. #1985
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    Default Re: Amas: Why Stern Shape

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- I wonder if the fine entry and deep V in the forefoot of Gary's new ama aids lateral resistance a little, too? Jim Brown mentions in one of his "Multihulls" memoirs (volume II I think) a native sailing dugout canoe built in Central America (east coast I think) that used no lateral resistance boards but got to windward well enough anyway. He attributed their sharp forefoot to that windward ability. -- Wade
    This particular ama has enough volume that the deep vee section only gets wet when meeting a steep wave, so it probably doesn't help much in this case.

  26. #1986
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    So when are the Va'Motu plans coming out?

    Dan

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan St Gean View Post
    So when are the Va'Motu plans coming out?

    Dan
    As soon as I can get my lazy summertime ass in gear.

  28. #1988
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Gary, are you considering publishing a new edition of your book with the two extra plans in it?

    Edit: another plug for the Ulua, I downsized my car from a Nissan 4x4 to a Golf, didn't have any issues roof topping the canoe (manual gives a maximum roof rack load of 75kg which the Ulua is well under):


    Gliding along:



    First ride of my two year old daughter:

    Last edited by basm; 02-21-2012 at 10:52 PM.

  29. #1989
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    Default Re: Amas: Why Stern Shape

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dierking View Post


    My latest and now favorite ama is deep veed in the forefoot and rounded the rest of the way aft, with a generous rocker in the aft section to aid tacking and reduce drag when the canoe is heavily loaded aft. Seems very quiet so far.
    Very nice looking design, but I'm missing your quote of my question I guess.

    I hate to interrupt a good conversation, but it's implied (instructed I guess) that all pro questions go in this thread....probably should have been a seperate question as all other threads...anyway, excuse....thanks.

  30. #1990
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dierking View Post
    As soon as I can get my lazy summertime ass in gear.
    No rush, but I'll likely have to give that one a go. It's a beauty. I might have to see if there's some way to incorporate the folding setup you posted about with Frank's folder in that boat or one like it.

    Dan

  31. #1991
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    Default How Did You Drill The Ama End Of Your Iakos?

    Drilling the ama end of the iakos to receive the vertical peg on the ama seems like a very non-fault-tolerant situation.

    Maybe not quite so tricky if the iako weren't curved, but as it is, the hole has tb perpendicular port-starboard to the flat part of the iako yet drilled near the end of the curved part.

    Not to mention not deviating fore-aft....

    Drill press?

    Drill press or otherwise, how did you jig it?
    Last edited by PeteCress; 02-22-2012 at 07:51 PM.

  32. #1992
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    Default Re: How Did You Drill The Ama End Of Your Iakos?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteCress View Post
    Drilling the ama end of the iakos to receive the vertical peg on the ama seems like a very non-fault-tolerant situation.

    Maybe not quite so tricky if the iako weren't curved, but as it is, the hole has tb perpendicular port-starboard to the flat part of the iako yet drilled near the end of the curved part.

    Not to mention not deviating fore-aft....

    Drill press?

    Drill press or otherwise, how did you jig it?
    I've been thinking about that too and I suspect that epoxy might come to the rescue. Drill a loose approximate hole, wrap the vertical post with plastic, insert in the loose hole, and pour thick epoxy into the gaps to produce a perfect fit.

  33. #1993
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    Default Ideas to last a lifetime



    Here's a large collection of drawings that could inspire a lifetime of projects. I know nothing about who did them:
    http://xoomer.virgilio.it/cherini/OCE1/index.html
    http://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/Oceania2/index.html

  34. #1994
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    Default Re: How Did You Drill The Ama End Of Your Iakos?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dierking View Post
    I've been thinking about that too and I suspect that epoxy might come to the rescue. Drill a loose approximate hole, wrap the vertical post with plastic, insert in the loose hole, and pour thick epoxy into the gaps to produce a perfect fit.
    What is your SOP for the ones that you have done?
    Last edited by PeteCress; 02-23-2012 at 04:05 PM.

  35. #1995
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    Default Re: Ideas to last a lifetime

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dierking View Post
    Here's a large collection of drawings that could inspire a lifetime of projects. I know nothing about who did them:
    http://xoomer.virgilio.it/cherini/OCE1/index.html
    http://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/Oceania2/index.html

    Gary,

    Thanks for sharing the links. The sketches there are pretty amazing. Love the detail in them. They certainly give a little more inspiration to my artwork.

    Trevor

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