The outrigger and proa thread

[JimD]

... bit of a high freeboard beast, but I love the modularity, the leeboard, the tent, etc.

Dan

I like the high freeboard look and deep amas. Gotta say I like the white sand and palm trees, too. Wish we some of those around here.

[tdem]

I am Forbidden from opening http://www.atomicshrimp.com/gfx/b/boat911.jpg. Got another pic?

If you go to this address: http://www.atomicshrimp.com/st/content/projects/ It is the flagship project. The rest of his website is also very much worth reading.

Another idea is the deckster, depending on the space available.
-Thomas

[peterchech]

I am Forbidden from opening http://www.atomicshrimp.com/gfx/b/boat911.jpg. Got another pic?

[peterchech]

I am thinking something like that, but maybe flat bottomed to get the max displacement for its size, and with a transom for the same reason (though that may get ugly)... Then again, a round bilges boat like the "snow pea" from the picture would paddle far better than a flat bottom... Or would it at such a small size?

I would also worry about a submerged transom with two aboard, is that how dinghy tenders do it when they are overloaded or do they have more rise aft to keep that transom at loaded waterline?

[JimD]

I want a Puddlecat, only a few feet longer

[Dan St Gean]

Roger is a creative guy who actually tests his design ideas. I love the little Lagoon look of what could otherwise be a challenging boat to make visually appealing. His new tri for the UFC is pretty slick as well...a bit like a Hobie Tandem AI with a bit of Dierking tamanu and a whole lot of Roger Mann thrown in as well. He reports the winglets are effective for windward work.



Dan

[Chris Ostlind]

I, too, like his boat, Dan... but, it's gonna be one heck of a wet ride with that low freeboard setup. That is gonna give Roger serious saturation fits over a long journey unless he's the kind of guy who finds that type of sailing to be very comfortable. They're out there (Lumpy/Bumpy/Smyth, etc.) but the typical old dude who engages the Tribe EC is gonna find a wild and wet rid to be tiring, to say the least. If a boat, such as is owned by Ray Aldridge does enter the EC, he's gonna find out what his boat can and can not do in this regard. He's also gonna find out if it can keep any kind of pace while pounding into and away from the potentially nastiest conditions he has experienced while allowing he and his crew to have some degree of what Ray desicribes as comfort, along the way. I suspect that comfort and speed down the course are two, entirely different things.

Boats with big flaring hull sides can do the journey, to be sure, but they aren't gonna set any records while doing so. That is typically the realm of the slender trimarans and the ultra-fast racing style beach cats with experienced crew. Then, again, it could be one of those years where there's no wind and all the sailing boats that do not have a serious, human propulsion solution, will tank in their own way.

As I've said many times in the past... there is no perfect boat for coastal adventure cruising. Only a boat that can reach a medium position between human power and sail power and that boat can be as varied as the possible crew that might be aboard at the time.

Good luck to all the entrants and may the wind/no wind gods be with you.

[DavePont]

Yep I like this boat too. One feature that caught my eye was the PVC boom on the AI sail - the way the video was shot I was thinking at first: what IS that rig... a flat topped crab claw! ... with vertical battens! ... ahhh I SEE its an AI rig with a boom added (for light winds). Presumably it still roller furls. This has parallels with my loose footed CC, and gives me new food for thought: add vertical battens? the boom may only need to be very light? flat top, why not :-P

The other detail I'm liking is the simple folding beam setup. I'm still keen on a version of this type of boat: but my key requirement is small and light enough to cartop easily, fast set-up. Really I want a ply self-built take an the Hobie AI. It will mostly be used for warm weather day tripping on lakes, or sheltered coastal waters, 1 person plus a small amount of stuff. Getting a bit wet is fine if that is the cost of being as light and small as possible.

I've been doing photoshop mash-ups of ply SOT kayaks with triak and AI rigs... will try to tidy them up and post some alternatives for comment.

cheers Dave

[Dan St Gean]

I, too, like his boat, Dan... but, it's gonna be one heck of a wet ride with that low freeboard setup. That is gonna give Roger serious saturation fits over a long journey unless he's the kind of guy who finds that type of sailing to be very comfortable. They're out there (Lumpy/Bumpy/Smyth, etc.) but the typical old dude who engages the Tribe EC is gonna find a wild and wet rid to be tiring, to say the least. If a boat, such as is owned by Ray Aldridge does enter the EC, he's gonna find out what his boat can and can not do in this regard. He's also gonna find out if it can keep any kind of pace while pounding into and away from the potentially nastiest conditions he has experienced while allowing he and his crew to have some degree of what Ray desicribes as comfort, along the way. I suspect that comfort and speed down the course are two, entirely different things.

Boats with big flaring hull sides can do the journey, to be sure, but they aren't gonna set any records while doing so. That is typically the realm of the slender trimarans and the ultra-fast racing style beach cats with experienced crew. Then, again, it could be one of those years where there's no wind and all the sailing boats that do not have a serious, human propulsion solution, will tank in their own way.

As I've said many times in the past... there is no perfect boat for coastal adventure cruising. Only a boat that can reach a medium position between human power and sail power and that boat can be as varied as the possible crew that might be aboard at the time.

Good luck to all the entrants and may the wind/no wind gods be with you.

Good points Chris, although the boat appears to be much bigger than a hobie TI, yet not as voluminous as the Tri Chief built and still markets plans for. I don't know what his freeboard is, but a 24' loa and even 20-24" of overall topsides height should keep him moderately dry. That said, it will be an interesting race since Randy Smythe will be taking his hot road on the UFC after winning in a solo push last year over a very good Tornado team. Impressive. There's really a bunch of races within the race though, and for some it's just a fun excuse for a challenging cruise in company with a great opportunity for boat watching at the start and finish. I'll probably never get to do the race due to my teaching schedule, but I think I'd be torn between having a really fun week and just barely making the checkpoints in a comfy slower ride or hammering down to the limits of my sleep deprivation and seeing how I could fare overall. Knowing how I like my sleep, especially since the birth of my third gave a powerful reminder of sleep's preciousness all over again, I think I would take Ray's approach. Frankly I'm interested in seeing how it'll do in varying conditions. That goes for the other boats I find interesting in this year's race like the aforementioned tri's, the couple cats like Teaks and Tornados like Lumpy's. Mostly I like to sail fast with the capacity to throttle back if I want. It is a fun event to watch from afar or attend if I ever got the chance to participate in it.

Dan

[slidercat]

Good points Chris, although the boat appears to be much bigger than a hobie TI, yet not as voluminous as the Tri Chief built and stil markets plans for. I don't know what his freeboard is, but a 24' loa and even 20-24" of overall topsides height should keep him moderately dry. That said, it will be an interesting race since Randy Smythe will be taking his hot rod on the UFC after winning in a solo push last year over a very good Tornado team. Impressive. There's really a bunch of races within the races though, and for some it's just a fun excuse for a challenging cruise in company with a great opportunity for boat watching at the start and finish. I'll probably never get to do the race due to my teaching schedule, but I think I'd be torn between having a really fun week and just barely making the checkpoints in a comfy slower ride or hammering down to the limits of my sleep deprivation and seeing how I could fare overall. Knowing how I like my sleep, especially since the birth of my third gave a powerful reminder of sleep's preciousness all over again, I think I would take Ray's approach. Frankly I'm interested in seeing how it'll do in varying conditions. That goes for the other boats I find interesting in this year's race like the aforementioned tri's, the couple cats like Teaks and tornados like Lumpy's. Mostly I like to sail fast with the capacity to throttle back if I want. It is a fun event to watch from afar or attend if I ever got the chance to participate in it.

Dan

Yeah, I'm not under any illusions that I'm going to place high, though I would like to beat some of the Hobie AIs-- and I think that's possible, if for no better reason that with two of us and a dry berth, we should be able to make time when the solo AI guys are having to rest. I may be surprised, but it seems unlikely that it will be much rougher than the second day of the Florida 120 a couple years ago. That was a slog to windward with 20 knot winds and a 30 mile fetch-- though the chop was chaotic because the Sound is long and narrow, with lots of points extending a ways into the channel, so that the chop was reflected and bounced into a pretty agitated state. Give me longer ocean seas any day.

If a lot of the course is to windward, I think that will favor us, partly because we'll be much dryer than most of the fleet, and partly because Slider does so well to windward. The one thing I really worry about is a very light air race. If that happens, we're probably doomed to not finish.

[Dan St Gean]

Yep I like this boat too. One feature that caught my eye was the PVC boom on the AI sail - the way the video was shot I was thinking at first: what IS that rig... a flat topped crab claw! ... with vertical battens! ... ahhh I SEE its an AI rig with a boom added (for light winds). Presumably it still roller furls. This has parallels with my loose footed CC, and gives me new food for thought: add vertical battens? the boom may only need to be very light? flat top, why not :-P

The other detail I'm liking is the simple folding beam setup. I'm still keen on a version of this type of boat: but my key requirement is small and light enough to cartop easily, fast set-up. Really I want a ply self-built take an the Hobie AI. It will mostly be used for warm weather day tripping on lakes, or sheltered coastal waters, 1 person plus a small amount of stuff. Getting a bit wet is fine if that is the cost of being as light and small as possible.

I've been doing photoshop mash-ups of ply SOT kayaks with triak and AI rigs... will try to tidy them up and post some alternatives for comment.

cheers Dave

That's an interesting option and one I'm finding more and more facinating personally as well. I'm after a bit more volume though in what I'm calling a solo+ concept. I'd likely sail solo most of the time on this boat, but I'd want to have enough volume to handle an expedition load or a second person--just not at the same time. Some sort of mashup like Roger mann's is interesting since it has TONS more freeboard, volume, and sail area on a longer loa than the AI while being likely drier. The Hobie offerings have lots going for them. Almost everything really. However, the low slung SOT vake makes them really wet.

Here's a look at just how low slung the loaded AI is.The folding, rollerfurling, Mirage drive alternate propulsion are all spot on. The rotomoulded construction and low slung seating position don't do it for me so much unless the water's warm though.


Dan

[Dan St Gean]

Yeah, I'm not under any illusions that I'm going to place high, though I would like to beat some of the Hobie AIs-- and I think that's possible, if for no better reason that with two of us and a dry berth, we should be able to make time when the solo AI guys are having to rest. I may be surprised, but it seems unlikely that it will be much rougher than the second day of the Florida 120 a couple years ago. That was a slog to windward with 20 knot winds and a 30 mile fetch-- though the chop was chaotic because the Sound is long and narrow, with lots of points extending a ways into the channel, so that the chop was reflected and bounced into a pretty agitated state. Give me longer ocean seas any day.

If a lot of the course is to windward, I think that will favor us, partly because we'll be much dryer than most of the fleet, and partly because Slider does so well to windward. The one thing I really worry about is a very light air race. If that happens, we're probably doomed to not finish.

You and a lot of other sailboats I would suspect. Keeping it fun is important, whatever that means to you and your wife. I'm excited to see you go for it!

Dan

[wtarzia]

Best of luck, Ray! I'll be following your progress. What is your Watertribe name? (still Slider?). As for wetness and freeboard.... I was only in there for a day and most of it was doldrums, but with two rough section at each end of that. My 24 inch deep hull, reducing to 19 inch at bow and stern, was fairly dry, and when not, it all washed into the footwell. I tend to get wet from the bow and leeboard spray, which could be stopped if I were not so lazy about getting to a couple of spray dodgers.

I am almost always sailing in a steep coastal chop here at home, and a foot of the bow does often go into steeper waves (more often when I used the jib or the big balanced lug whose taller mast and more area aloft definitely produced more bow-down attitude). I have often thought I needed a higher bow (like the panels used to raise the bow sheer on the Tamanu); any water that the various impediments of the foremast partners does not divert washes down the 'sleep deck' into my aft foot well. On an exciting day there is always 3 gallons sloshing in the footwell. I bungee the bilgepump in there, but if things are fun, I can't take hands off tiller or sheet to pump!

What saves my comfort ratio a little is being able to sit tall in my cockpit, in kitchen-chair ergonomic. Then no more than my ankles are getting wet all the time (that's what boots are for). For upper body parts, that's what Gortex is for, and some spray dodgers or a full length side seat on the ama-side would get me free of even the parka. I also find that waterproof breathable pants are good for outrigger sailing in the spray (I use the ones found at the backpacking stores with side-zippers, to ventilate when the ride is dry).

Ray's cockpit seating, a little like mine, may offer some fatigue reduction, though I am not sure what his spray situation is in either hull. His deck must stop the most of it.

I think this offers a little advantage over the Hobie AI boats, other things being equal. Those boats are often wet, I daresay. Most of the AI people seem to be wearing their drysuits full time. I wore mine 24 hours straight and it was not terribly fun but I was too tired by the end to take it off :-), and a big black blob on the SW horizon that night made me nervous (turned out to bejust mist preceding a little squally blow next morning (any way, if you have to have drysuit, spring extra for a 100% Gortex one).

Well, we'll see! Let the adventure begin! Damn, I'm so bummed I won't be there! -- Wade

[slidercat]

Wade, I was sorry to hear that you couldn't get leave this year-- I'd looked forward to meeting you. We could have talked about writing, and the new frontiers in publishing.

We won't have drysuits. If we'd been required to have them, I probably couldn't have afforded to go. I emailed Chief and asked, before the refund date.

I've never taken any solid water into the cockpits, though I've been hit by the occasional bit of spray at speed in a big chop. When I was drawing Slider, and talking about the process online, I heard from various self-appointed experts that I'd need spray skirts to keep water out of the hulls. I thought that was a little silly, but I guess I was sufficiently influenced that I did put duckboards in the bilge, to keep my feet out of any water that might make it aboard. I never actually get any water aboard unless it's raining. We'll carry decent foul weather gear for that, and I've built a little removable cabin for the port cockpit, so we'll have a dry berth for the off watch. It fits down over the cockpit coaming like a Griffith hatch, so should be pretty dry. I have to turn sideways to get through the hatch, but once inside, there's comfortable sitting headroom-- part of the berth flat folds up to make a seat. It's kind of ugly, and it adds weight, but we're trying to cut down on weight everywhere else we can. Because it's so small and I didn't want it to feel claustrophobic, I put in lots of windows and a clear main hatch.

The port cockpit, from which we'll be sailing, has room for both seats, and a little bimini to keep the sun off.

I think it was Dan who on seeing pictures of Slider under construction, remarked on what a big boat she was, for a 16 foot cat. I have about 26 inches of freeboard midships, for example.

It will be very interesting to see how she does. In all likelihood, she'll do better than her crew. That's usually the way of it.

[wtarzia]

... there's comfortable sitting headroom-- part of the berth flat folds up to make a seat. ...I think it was Dan who on seeing pictures of Slider under construction, remarked on what a big boat she was, for a 16 foot cat. I have about 26 inches of freeboard midships, for example. ...

--- I missed these developments. Interesting! And your 26 inch freeboard (or hull depth?) sounds great. -- Wade

[wtarzia]

I, too, like his boat, Dan... but, it's gonna be one heck of a wet ride with that low freeboard setup. That is gonna give Roger serious saturation fits over a long journey unless he's the kind of guy who finds that type of sailing to be very comfortable. They're out there (Lumpy/Bumpy/Smyth, etc.) but the typical old dude who engages the Tribe EC is gonna find a wild and wet rid to be tiring, to say the least....

--- I didn't know about that boat. Very interesting, especially the folding system. I hope it is strong enough. Those inflatable amas are very buoyant, so a gust is going to put some stress on the beam system. Wet, probably, but if he can go fast, he will be wet a shorter time. Look at Randy Smyth's tri -- he sits on a board with no back rest for the whole ride, but he is fast enough to make that have to last for only 24-35 hours with one quick nap in there, a time span in which most in-shape people might endure discomfort well enough. Something tells me, though, he's going to have to endure 3 days at least (My main discomfort was the life-cushion I sat on, which is fine for 5 hours of a cruise, but I found very bad in the latter half of my 22 hour stint. Protect those butts! I was stupid for not finding a way to spend a whole day in my boat before the EC). -- Wade

[JimD]

...the low slung SOT vake makes them really wet.

Here's a look at just how low slung the loaded AI is.


Dan

Ugh. No thanks. Maybe in Hawaii. But not coastal BC

[slidercat]

--- I missed these developments. Interesting! And your 26 inch freeboard (or hull depth?) sounds great. -- Wade

That's freeboard. Hull depth is 10 inches more. Here's a snapshot I took when I was building, and because the coamings aren't on yet, you can get a better idea of how things are arranged. I think the coamings help a lot to keep the boat dry, because even when water makes it to the decks, it never spills inside.

[wtarzia]

That's freeboard. Hull depth is 10 inches more. Here's a snapshot I took when I was building, and because the coamings aren't on yet, you can get a better idea of how things are arranged. I think the coamings help a lot to keep the boat dry, because even when water makes it to the decks, it never spills inside. ...

--- Wow, 36 inches depth amidships (or at the bow?), I have missed that, and the photo makes clear how big you hulls really are; I can better imagine the cabin thingie -- could you post a photo of that at some point? Anyway, this sounds great. If the packing is done well, you won't loose too much of that (I think your hulls flare almost dory style?), and I'll bet the boat will be generally comfortable. Bets off only at some of the dangerous passes and at Cape Romano Shoals in the wrong wind (neither of which I have experienced, only heard of; one of the factors in my abort decision last year was Imagining getting around the shoals in a bad wind without a rudder to help out, assuming the Caxambras Pass tide/wind would not allow cutting off the shoals). Oh, yeah, you do have some ideas about how to repair a rudder, right? I guess you have two and could sail on one if need be, but please I beg you be ready for rudder repair! :-) This haunts all multihulls in the EC -- Wade

[Dan St Gean]

Oh, yeah, you do have some ideas about how to repair a rudder, right? I guess you have two and could sail on one if need be, but please I beg you be ready for rudder repair! :-) This haunts all multihulls in the EC -- Wade

He designed and built them, so I'm sure he has some ideas... However, after your experience, it pays to have not only a good inspection of all systems prior to starting, but after your experience it bears repeating!

Dan

[wtarzia]

[QUOTE=Dan St Gean;3304438]He designed and built them, so I'm sure he has some ideas... However, after your experience, it pays to have not only a good inspection of all systems prior to starting, but after your experience it bears repeating! ... /QUOTE]

--- Hell, I now carry a replacement rudder blade in my cargo hold! :-) I always carried spare pintles/gudgeons/bolts/screws and an aluminum tube that could double as rudder linkage repair, but that wasn't the problem that arose (is it ever?). -- Wade

[slidercat]

Wade, I'm reluctant to say I won't have any rudder trouble, because if I do say it, I will of a certainty be struck down by the catamaran gods for hubris. But Slider's 4th anniversary is coming up in April, and the only trouble I've had happened the first week, when one blade fell off because I hadn't gotten around to installing cotters on the pivot bolts. Since then, no trouble over a lot of miles. The setup is simple as simple can be; the blades are held flat to the stocks by a single stout bolt and fender washers. They kick back very reliably-- the mechanism is based on running the holddown line through a wooden block that is tensioned to increase its friction. The blades can be raised or lowered by yanking a toggled line. I guess if they both fall off, I might be able to steer with the yuloh I'm taking.

Here's an early pic of the cabin. It's oogly, but it will be nice to have a dry berth and a place to put the chart plotter, which is a netbook with a hockey puck GPS receiver.



It's secured by a line to a cleat fore and aft, and can be removed in a minute. The main hatch is a fold-forward one based on the Griffith design, and the whole cabin is sort of a Griffith hatch, because it fits down around the cockpit coaming. I'm putting a 30 watt solar panel on the cabin roof, and carrying a little motorcycle battery to power lights and stuff.

I'm trying to keep the weight down as much as possible-- no cooler and I plan to replenish water at the checkpoints. Slider doesn't seem to mind a little overloading, but it makes the ride a bit wetter.

[wtarzia]

... when one blade fell off because I hadn't gotten around to installing cotters on the pivot bolts. .....

--- Well, that's what happened to me, basically, forgot to safety-wire the blade. Hey, I love that cabin. It actually looks good and I thought that was near impossble on a 16 foot long outrigger hull. What an interesting evolution. -- Wade

[JimD]

Ray, I like the look of the oogly cabin. Got a side view?

[PeteCress]

.... be ready for rudder repair!...

I don't have any real experience, but from what I've read, at least some outrigger canoe sailors - even though they have a rudder - carry either a steering oar or a paddle that can be used as a steering paddle.

Dunno how that would play out with a catamaran, but it sounds reasonable to me for an outrigger canoe.

One advantage of a catamaran: some backup in having 2 rudders.

[wtarzia]

I don't have any real experience, but from what I've read, at least some outrigger canoe sailors - even though they have a rudder - carry either a steering oar or a paddle that can be used as a steering paddle....

--- Yes, absolutely, but I was thinking of the scenario, rudder breaks early, and you are faced with a few days of being constantly at the helm with a steering oar in the EC. OK with a large crew, as on a native proa and people born to it; not all that fun for one of us, maybe. You do not need to hit something or drop the blade. You could be beached in bad conditions and wave comes in and bashes the stern. This happened to me last fall as I streaked into the ramp in a high cross wind. I didn't get of the outrigger fast enough and a big wave drove in, hit the rudder, broke the tiller linkage, and bent a gudgeon pretty well. --Wade

[JimD]

An interesting sail:

The general shape was inspired by an old photo of a Vietnamese fishing boat. It’s got radial battens so it will close neatly like a fan for reefing, brailing, and lowering, but also so that it will hold the correct attitude toward the wind....My goal was simply to create an easily collapsible sail, and it needed that much roach to get up to 90 sq ft. Its performance is excellent, and sails closer to the wind than any of our other sails.

http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=7384#more-7384 http://www.diy-tris.com/

[slidercat]

[QUOTE=JimD;3304929]Ray, I like the look of the oogly cabin. Got a side view?

Jim, this is about as much side as I've got in the carport. It is oogly, no exaggeration.



I've really been meaning to write a blog post on the thing, but I've been pretty busy getting ready for the EC, and other stuff.

Anyway, the height in back was necessary to get sitting headroom. The boom does clear the cabin when the sail is hoisted. I'm going to have to remember to set up the topping lift before raising sail in blustery conditions.

The bunk flats are sectional, so that the aft two segments can be pulled back and one forms a seat back leaning against the coamings. The forward two sections are set up so that the aft piece can be flipped up and will hold the netbook securely in the stringers that stiffen the flats. That also gives plenty of leg room, so you're sitting in an ergonomically comfortable position. The bunk is about 24 inches wide with a couple of self-inflating camp pads under the sleeper. I'm adding a cabin light and a telltale compass, so the watch below can keep an eye on the heading, just in case the watch on deck gets confused.

It's definitely a kludge, but it only adds about 40 pounds to the payload. It's 1/4 inch stitch and glue ply, stiffened with stringers on top, and external stringers on the lower edge. That handle is to lift it off easily, and also to keep the hatch from opening too far and stressing the crappy carpentry. (The hatch corners are half-lapped, but before I added the handle, I flung it open one day and broke it.)

We''l see how it works. The good thing is that it's easy to get rid of.

[JimD]

I still like it, Ray. But I'm curious why no big window facing forward.

[slidercat]

I thought about doing that, but I couldn't figure out a good way to get ventilation and still have it be structurally simple and sound. Besides, when you're sitting in the seat below, the downward curvature of the cabin would cut off your view unless you crawled forward. The deck plate is a transparent one. and will be removed for all but really heavy weather. Still, you won't be able to see much over the beam.

The cabin already adds a lot of windage, and I didn't want to screw up Slider's excellent windward ability any more than I had to, thus the semi-aerodynamic shape.

I'm hoping to set up a way to steer from below, so we can keep going in the rain without getting wet, but I guess I'll have to veer from side to side occasionally to see what's ahead.

[PeteCress]

This photo shows the shape in question: http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/wp-co...dification.jpg

But it seems to appear on many, many hulls

On my ama, it seems to make a lot of noise and I'm wondering what the downside is of a tapered shape - like that on a wave-piercing ama.

[Wavewacker]

And, should the ama be the same shape as the main hull? Or maybe asked another way, can you mix the hull designs of amas and your main hull, a shapie style ama on a dory boat?

[Dan St Gean]

Sure. Gary's Ulua has a rounded v shaped hull & a round ama. His Tamanu and Wa'apa has a flat bottom and a v shaped ama. His newest design Va'motu has a flat bottomed hull and a rounded form with a deep forefoot. All work, but one has to decide what they like. Pete doesn't like the noise of the round ama shape. I didn't really like the splashes in trimaran mode when the ama would flop side to side in wakes, but didn't mind the noise. Wade prefers his deep v. I might be more drawn to a v shape although the simplicity of the angled shape on the Seaclipper 20 and the W17 has much to say for it.

Dan

[Gary Dierking]

And, should the ama be the same shape as the main hull? Or maybe asked another way, can you mix the hull designs of amas and your main hull, a shapie style ama on a dory boat?

My latest and now favorite ama is deep veed in the forefoot and rounded the rest of the way aft, with a generous rocker in the aft section to aid tacking and reduce drag when the canoe is heavily loaded aft. Seems very quiet so far.

[wtarzia]

My latest and now favorite ama is deep veed in the forefoot and rounded the rest of the way aft, with a generous rocker in the aft section to aid tacking and reduce drag when the canoe is heavily loaded aft. Seems very quiet so far.

--- I wonder if the fine entry and deep V in the forefoot of Gary's new ama aids lateral resistance a little, too? Jim Brown mentions in one of his "Multihulls" memoirs (volume II I think) a native sailing dugout canoe built in Central America (east coast I think) that used no lateral resistance boards but got to windward well enough anyway. He attributed their sharp forefoot to that windward ability. -- Wade

[Gary Dierking]

--- I wonder if the fine entry and deep V in the forefoot of Gary's new ama aids lateral resistance a little, too? Jim Brown mentions in one of his "Multihulls" memoirs (volume II I think) a native sailing dugout canoe built in Central America (east coast I think) that used no lateral resistance boards but got to windward well enough anyway. He attributed their sharp forefoot to that windward ability. -- Wade

This particular ama has enough volume that the deep vee section only gets wet when meeting a steep wave, so it probably doesn't help much in this case.

[Dan St Gean]

So when are the Va'Motu plans coming out?

Dan

[Gary Dierking]

So when are the Va'Motu plans coming out?

Dan

As soon as I can get my lazy summertime ass in gear.

[basm]

Gary, are you considering publishing a new edition of your book with the two extra plans in it?

Edit: another plug for the Ulua, I downsized my car from a Nissan 4x4 to a Golf, didn't have any issues roof topping the canoe (manual gives a maximum roof rack load of 75kg which the Ulua is well under):


Gliding along:



First ride of my two year old daughter:

[Wavewacker]

My latest and now favorite ama is deep veed in the forefoot and rounded the rest of the way aft, with a generous rocker in the aft section to aid tacking and reduce drag when the canoe is heavily loaded aft. Seems very quiet so far.

Very nice looking design, but I'm missing your quote of my question I guess.

I hate to interrupt a good conversation, but it's implied (instructed I guess) that all pro questions go in this thread....probably should have been a seperate question as all other threads...anyway, excuse....thanks.

[Dan St Gean]

As soon as I can get my lazy summertime ass in gear.

No rush, but I'll likely have to give that one a go. It's a beauty. I might have to see if there's some way to incorporate the folding setup you posted about with Frank's folder in that boat or one like it.

Dan

[PeteCress]

Drilling the ama end of the iakos to receive the vertical peg on the ama seems like a very non-fault-tolerant situation.

Maybe not quite so tricky if the iako weren't curved, but as it is, the hole has tb perpendicular port-starboard to the flat part of the iako yet drilled near the end of the curved part.

Not to mention not deviating fore-aft....

Drill press?

Drill press or otherwise, how did you jig it?

[Gary Dierking]

Drilling the ama end of the iakos to receive the vertical peg on the ama seems like a very non-fault-tolerant situation.

Maybe not quite so tricky if the iako weren't curved, but as it is, the hole has tb perpendicular port-starboard to the flat part of the iako yet drilled near the end of the curved part.

Not to mention not deviating fore-aft....

Drill press?

Drill press or otherwise, how did you jig it?

I've been thinking about that too and I suspect that epoxy might come to the rescue. Drill a loose approximate hole, wrap the vertical post with plastic, insert in the loose hole, and pour thick epoxy into the gaps to produce a perfect fit.

[Gary Dierking]

Here's a large collection of drawings that could inspire a lifetime of projects. I know nothing about who did them:
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/cherini/OCE1/index.html
http://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/Oceania2/index.html

[PeteCress]

I've been thinking about that too and I suspect that epoxy might come to the rescue. Drill a loose approximate hole, wrap the vertical post with plastic, insert in the loose hole, and pour thick epoxy into the gaps to produce a perfect fit.

What is your SOP for the ones that you have done?

[trefor]

Here's a large collection of drawings that could inspire a lifetime of projects. I know nothing about who did them:
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/cherini/OCE1/index.html
http://www.cherini.eu/etnografia/Oceania2/index.html

Gary,

Thanks for sharing the links. The sketches there are pretty amazing. Love the detail in them. They certainly give a little more inspiration to my artwork.

Trevor

[DavePont]

Drilling the ama end of the iakos to receive the vertical peg on the ama seems like a very non-fault-tolerant situation.

Maybe not quite so tricky if the iako weren't curved, but as it is, the hole has tb perpendicular port-starboard to the flat part of the iako yet drilled near the end of the curved part.

Hi Pete,
Drilling a really tiny pilot hole is a good start, much easier to get located and lined up right and easier to re-drill or otherwise correct if it goes astray. Start with a hand drill at right angles to the surface, after a few turns coax it over to the angle you really want. Then a couple of larger drills up to say 1/8" or 1/4", then I'd get the spade bit in my power drill and let it rip! A engineers dot punch is not silly to make an initial indent too. Softwood is the worst because the harder growth rings can take a drill way off course even if started well.

yep, you can tell I've drilled my share of wonky holes , cheers Dave

[DavePont]

another plug for the Ulua, I downsized my car from a Nissan 4x4 to a Golf, didn't have any issues roof topping the canoe (manual gives a maximum roof rack load of 75kg which the Ulua is well under):

Hi Bas, really nice photos, where was the location? it looks idyllic.

Do you really cartop with no fore and aft lines?! The racks on my Falcon have a little bit more spread than your Golf, but still far from enough to make me want to go any more than 50kmh with 18' of canoe on top. In case this is relevant for you: There was no convenient tie point at the front of the car but I quickly solved that: the hooks on the ends of a short bungy were thin enough to slip under the back edge of the plastic bumper even though that was hard against underbody panels. My front line goes from that bungy to my rope handle on the bow. The rear line goes from rope handle at stern to towball. I still wince when the blast from passing trucks hits but it has survived many 100's of miles of travel at highway speed without issue.

cheers Dave

[PeteCress]

My front line goes from that bungy to my rope handle on the bow. The rear line goes from rope handle at stern to towball. I still wince when the blast from passing trucks hits but it has survived many 100's of miles of travel at highway speed without issue.

I think that once something is out of the vehicle's slipstream, it's a whole new ballgame.

I've carried my surf skis (18-21' long depending on the ski) upside-down, stern-first and way far back on the racks for years and years with no problems.

OTOH, one year I got the bright idea of carrying my ski in a J-rack (i.e. outside of the slipstream) to leave more space for other stuff.

Within a month I'd crushed one side - preseumably from side-gusts.

For Ulua, I wimped and bought a trailer.

[basm]

Dave, that is on the Manukau harbour, very nice at high tide, not so nice on the low.

This was the first time that I car topped on the Golf and only took it a short distance while staying off the motorway. There is a tow point on the front of the car but it is a screw in type and and I need to remove one of the bumper panels. So I think I'll only use it if I plan to drive long distance that or borrow a friends trailer.