I am thinking something like that, but maybe flat bottomed to get the max displacement for its size, and with a transom for the same reason (though that may get ugly)... Then again, a round bilges boat like the "snow pea" from the picture would paddle far better than a flat bottom... Or would it at such a small size?
I would also worry about a submerged transom with two aboard, is that how dinghy tenders do it when they are overloaded or do they have more rise aft to keep that transom at loaded waterline?
“The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais
I want a Puddlecat, only a few feet longer
Roger is a creative guy who actually tests his design ideas. I love the little Lagoon look of what could otherwise be a challenging boat to make visually appealing. His new tri for the UFC is pretty slick as well...a bit like a Hobie Tandem AI with a bit of Dierking tamanu and a whole lot of Roger Mann thrown in as well. He reports the winglets are effective for windward work.
Last edited by Dan St Gean; 02-09-2012 at 02:17 PM.
I, too, like his boat, Dan... but, it's gonna be one heck of a wet ride with that low freeboard setup. That is gonna give Roger serious saturation fits over a long journey unless he's the kind of guy who finds that type of sailing to be very comfortable. They're out there (Lumpy/Bumpy/Smyth, etc.) but the typical old dude who engages the Tribe EC is gonna find a wild and wet rid to be tiring, to say the least. If a boat, such as is owned by Ray Aldridge does enter the EC, he's gonna find out what his boat can and can not do in this regard. He's also gonna find out if it can keep any kind of pace while pounding into and away from the potentially nastiest conditions he has experienced while allowing he and his crew to have some degree of what Ray desicribes as comfort, along the way. I suspect that comfort and speed down the course are two, entirely different things.
Boats with big flaring hull sides can do the journey, to be sure, but they aren't gonna set any records while doing so. That is typically the realm of the slender trimarans and the ultra-fast racing style beach cats with experienced crew. Then, again, it could be one of those years where there's no wind and all the sailing boats that do not have a serious, human propulsion solution, will tank in their own way.
As I've said many times in the past... there is no perfect boat for coastal adventure cruising. Only a boat that can reach a medium position between human power and sail power and that boat can be as varied as the possible crew that might be aboard at the time.
Good luck to all the entrants and may the wind/no wind gods be with you.
Yep I like this boat too. One feature that caught my eye was the PVC boom on the AI sail - the way the video was shot I was thinking at first: what IS that rig... a flat topped crab claw! ... with vertical battens! ... ahhh I SEE its an AI rig with a boom added (for light winds). Presumably it still roller furls. This has parallels with my loose footed CC, and gives me new food for thought: add vertical battens? the boom may only need to be very light? flat top, why not :-P
The other detail I'm liking is the simple folding beam setup. I'm still keen on a version of this type of boat: but my key requirement is small and light enough to cartop easily, fast set-up. Really I want a ply self-built take an the Hobie AI. It will mostly be used for warm weather day tripping on lakes, or sheltered coastal waters, 1 person plus a small amount of stuff. Getting a bit wet is fine if that is the cost of being as light and small as possible.
I've been doing photoshop mash-ups of ply SOT kayaks with triak and AI rigs... will try to tidy them up and post some alternatives for comment.
Last edited by Dan St Gean; 02-09-2012 at 02:19 PM.
If a lot of the course is to windward, I think that will favor us, partly because we'll be much dryer than most of the fleet, and partly because Slider does so well to windward. The one thing I really worry about is a very light air race. If that happens, we're probably doomed to not finish.
Here's a look at just how low slung the loaded AI is.The folding, rollerfurling, Mirage drive alternate propulsion are all spot on. The rotomoulded construction and low slung seating position don't do it for me so much unless the water's warm though.
Last edited by Dan St Gean; 02-09-2012 at 02:23 PM.
Best of luck, Ray! I'll be following your progress. What is your Watertribe name? (still Slider?). As for wetness and freeboard.... I was only in there for a day and most of it was doldrums, but with two rough section at each end of that. My 24 inch deep hull, reducing to 19 inch at bow and stern, was fairly dry, and when not, it all washed into the footwell. I tend to get wet from the bow and leeboard spray, which could be stopped if I were not so lazy about getting to a couple of spray dodgers.
I am almost always sailing in a steep coastal chop here at home, and a foot of the bow does often go into steeper waves (more often when I used the jib or the big balanced lug whose taller mast and more area aloft definitely produced more bow-down attitude). I have often thought I needed a higher bow (like the panels used to raise the bow sheer on the Tamanu); any water that the various impediments of the foremast partners does not divert washes down the 'sleep deck' into my aft foot well. On an exciting day there is always 3 gallons sloshing in the footwell. I bungee the bilgepump in there, but if things are fun, I can't take hands off tiller or sheet to pump!
What saves my comfort ratio a little is being able to sit tall in my cockpit, in kitchen-chair ergonomic. Then no more than my ankles are getting wet all the time (that's what boots are for). For upper body parts, that's what Gortex is for, and some spray dodgers or a full length side seat on the ama-side would get me free of even the parka. I also find that waterproof breathable pants are good for outrigger sailing in the spray (I use the ones found at the backpacking stores with side-zippers, to ventilate when the ride is dry).
Ray's cockpit seating, a little like mine, may offer some fatigue reduction, though I am not sure what his spray situation is in either hull. His deck must stop the most of it.
I think this offers a little advantage over the Hobie AI boats, other things being equal. Those boats are often wet, I daresay. Most of the AI people seem to be wearing their drysuits full time. I wore mine 24 hours straight and it was not terribly fun but I was too tired by the end to take it off :-), and a big black blob on the SW horizon that night made me nervous (turned out to bejust mist preceding a little squally blow next morning (any way, if you have to have drysuit, spring extra for a 100% Gortex one).
Well, we'll see! Let the adventure begin! Damn, I'm so bummed I won't be there! -- Wade
Last edited by wtarzia; 02-09-2012 at 08:37 AM.
Wade, I was sorry to hear that you couldn't get leave this year-- I'd looked forward to meeting you. We could have talked about writing, and the new frontiers in publishing.
We won't have drysuits. If we'd been required to have them, I probably couldn't have afforded to go. I emailed Chief and asked, before the refund date.
I've never taken any solid water into the cockpits, though I've been hit by the occasional bit of spray at speed in a big chop. When I was drawing Slider, and talking about the process online, I heard from various self-appointed experts that I'd need spray skirts to keep water out of the hulls. I thought that was a little silly, but I guess I was sufficiently influenced that I did put duckboards in the bilge, to keep my feet out of any water that might make it aboard. I never actually get any water aboard unless it's raining. We'll carry decent foul weather gear for that, and I've built a little removable cabin for the port cockpit, so we'll have a dry berth for the off watch. It fits down over the cockpit coaming like a Griffith hatch, so should be pretty dry. I have to turn sideways to get through the hatch, but once inside, there's comfortable sitting headroom-- part of the berth flat folds up to make a seat. It's kind of ugly, and it adds weight, but we're trying to cut down on weight everywhere else we can. Because it's so small and I didn't want it to feel claustrophobic, I put in lots of windows and a clear main hatch.
The port cockpit, from which we'll be sailing, has room for both seats, and a little bimini to keep the sun off.
I think it was Dan who on seeing pictures of Slider under construction, remarked on what a big boat she was, for a 16 foot cat. I have about 26 inches of freeboard midships, for example.
It will be very interesting to see how she does. In all likelihood, she'll do better than her crew. That's usually the way of it.
[QUOTE=Dan St Gean;3304438]He designed and built them, so I'm sure he has some ideas... However, after your experience, it pays to have not only a good inspection of all systems prior to starting, but after your experience it bears repeating! ... /QUOTE]
--- Hell, I now carry a replacement rudder blade in my cargo hold! :-) I always carried spare pintles/gudgeons/bolts/screws and an aluminum tube that could double as rudder linkage repair, but that wasn't the problem that arose (is it ever?). -- Wade
Wade, I'm reluctant to say I won't have any rudder trouble, because if I do say it, I will of a certainty be struck down by the catamaran gods for hubris. But Slider's 4th anniversary is coming up in April, and the only trouble I've had happened the first week, when one blade fell off because I hadn't gotten around to installing cotters on the pivot bolts. Since then, no trouble over a lot of miles. The setup is simple as simple can be; the blades are held flat to the stocks by a single stout bolt and fender washers. They kick back very reliably-- the mechanism is based on running the holddown line through a wooden block that is tensioned to increase its friction. The blades can be raised or lowered by yanking a toggled line. I guess if they both fall off, I might be able to steer with the yuloh I'm taking.
Here's an early pic of the cabin. It's oogly, but it will be nice to have a dry berth and a place to put the chart plotter, which is a netbook with a hockey puck GPS receiver.
It's secured by a line to a cleat fore and aft, and can be removed in a minute. The main hatch is a fold-forward one based on the Griffith design, and the whole cabin is sort of a Griffith hatch, because it fits down around the cockpit coaming. I'm putting a 30 watt solar panel on the cabin roof, and carrying a little motorcycle battery to power lights and stuff.
I'm trying to keep the weight down as much as possible-- no cooler and I plan to replenish water at the checkpoints. Slider doesn't seem to mind a little overloading, but it makes the ride a bit wetter.
Ray, I like the look of the oogly cabin. Got a side view?
Dunno how that would play out with a catamaran, but it sounds reasonable to me for an outrigger canoe.
One advantage of a catamaran: some backup in having 2 rudders.
Last edited by PeteCress; 02-13-2012 at 03:53 PM.
An interesting sail:
The general shape was inspired by an old photo of a Vietnamese fishing boat. It’s got radial battens so it will close neatly like a fan for reefing, brailing, and lowering, but also so that it will hold the correct attitude toward the wind....My goal was simply to create an easily collapsible sail, and it needed that much roach to get up to 90 sq ft. Its performance is excellent, and sails closer to the wind than any of our other sails.http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=7384#more-7384 http://www.diy-tris.com/
[QUOTE=JimD;3304929]Ray, I like the look of the oogly cabin. Got a side view?
Jim, this is about as much side as I've got in the carport. It is oogly, no exaggeration.
I've really been meaning to write a blog post on the thing, but I've been pretty busy getting ready for the EC, and other stuff.
Anyway, the height in back was necessary to get sitting headroom. The boom does clear the cabin when the sail is hoisted. I'm going to have to remember to set up the topping lift before raising sail in blustery conditions.
The bunk flats are sectional, so that the aft two segments can be pulled back and one forms a seat back leaning against the coamings. The forward two sections are set up so that the aft piece can be flipped up and will hold the netbook securely in the stringers that stiffen the flats. That also gives plenty of leg room, so you're sitting in an ergonomically comfortable position. The bunk is about 24 inches wide with a couple of self-inflating camp pads under the sleeper. I'm adding a cabin light and a telltale compass, so the watch below can keep an eye on the heading, just in case the watch on deck gets confused.
It's definitely a kludge, but it only adds about 40 pounds to the payload. It's 1/4 inch stitch and glue ply, stiffened with stringers on top, and external stringers on the lower edge. That handle is to lift it off easily, and also to keep the hatch from opening too far and stressing the crappy carpentry. (The hatch corners are half-lapped, but before I added the handle, I flung it open one day and broke it.)
We''l see how it works. The good thing is that it's easy to get rid of.
I still like it, Ray. But I'm curious why no big window facing forward.
I thought about doing that, but I couldn't figure out a good way to get ventilation and still have it be structurally simple and sound. Besides, when you're sitting in the seat below, the downward curvature of the cabin would cut off your view unless you crawled forward. The deck plate is a transparent one. and will be removed for all but really heavy weather. Still, you won't be able to see much over the beam.
The cabin already adds a lot of windage, and I didn't want to screw up Slider's excellent windward ability any more than I had to, thus the semi-aerodynamic shape.
I'm hoping to set up a way to steer from below, so we can keep going in the rain without getting wet, but I guess I'll have to veer from side to side occasionally to see what's ahead.
This photo shows the shape in question: http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/wp-co...dification.jpg
But it seems to appear on many, many hulls
On my ama, it seems to make a lot of noise and I'm wondering what the downside is of a tapered shape - like that on a wave-piercing ama.
And, should the ama be the same shape as the main hull? Or maybe asked another way, can you mix the hull designs of amas and your main hull, a shapie style ama on a dory boat?
Sure. Gary's Ulua has a rounded v shaped hull & a round ama. His Tamanu and Wa'apa has a flat bottom and a v shaped ama. His newest design Va'motu has a flat bottomed hull and a rounded form with a deep forefoot. All work, but one has to decide what they like. Pete doesn't like the noise of the round ama shape. I didn't really like the splashes in trimaran mode when the ama would flop side to side in wakes, but didn't mind the noise. Wade prefers his deep v. I might be more drawn to a v shape although the simplicity of the angled shape on the Seaclipper 20 and the W17 has much to say for it.
So when are the Va'Motu plans coming out?
Gary, are you considering publishing a new edition of your book with the two extra plans in it?
Edit: another plug for the Ulua, I downsized my car from a Nissan 4x4 to a Golf, didn't have any issues roof topping the canoe (manual gives a maximum roof rack load of 75kg which the Ulua is well under):
First ride of my two year old daughter:
Last edited by basm; 02-21-2012 at 09:52 PM.
I hate to interrupt a good conversation, but it's implied (instructed I guess) that all pro questions go in this thread....probably should have been a seperate question as all other threads...anyway, excuse....thanks.
Drilling the ama end of the iakos to receive the vertical peg on the ama seems like a very non-fault-tolerant situation.
Maybe not quite so tricky if the iako weren't curved, but as it is, the hole has tb perpendicular port-starboard to the flat part of the iako yet drilled near the end of the curved part.
Not to mention not deviating fore-aft....
Drill press or otherwise, how did you jig it?
Last edited by PeteCress; 02-22-2012 at 06:51 PM.
Here's a large collection of drawings that could inspire a lifetime of projects. I know nothing about who did them:
Drilling a really tiny pilot hole is a good start, much easier to get located and lined up right and easier to re-drill or otherwise correct if it goes astray. Start with a hand drill at right angles to the surface, after a few turns coax it over to the angle you really want. Then a couple of larger drills up to say 1/8" or 1/4", then I'd get the spade bit in my power drill and let it rip! A engineers dot punch is not silly to make an initial indent too. Softwood is the worst because the harder growth rings can take a drill way off course even if started well.
yep, you can tell I've drilled my share of wonky holes , cheers Dave
Do you really cartop with no fore and aft lines?! The racks on my Falcon have a little bit more spread than your Golf, but still far from enough to make me want to go any more than 50kmh with 18' of canoe on top. In case this is relevant for you: There was no convenient tie point at the front of the car but I quickly solved that: the hooks on the ends of a short bungy were thin enough to slip under the back edge of the plastic bumper even though that was hard against underbody panels. My front line goes from that bungy to my rope handle on the bow. The rear line goes from rope handle at stern to towball. I still wince when the blast from passing trucks hits but it has survived many 100's of miles of travel at highway speed without issue.
I've carried my surf skis (18-21' long depending on the ski) upside-down, stern-first and way far back on the racks for years and years with no problems.
OTOH, one year I got the bright idea of carrying my ski in a J-rack (i.e. outside of the slipstream) to leave more space for other stuff.
Within a month I'd crushed one side - preseumably from side-gusts.
For Ulua, I wimped and bought a trailer.
Dave, that is on the Manukau harbour, very nice at high tide, not so nice on the low.
This was the first time that I car topped on the Golf and only took it a short distance while staying off the motorway. There is a tow point on the front of the car but it is a screw in type and and I need to remove one of the bumper panels. So I think I'll only use it if I plan to drive long distance that or borrow a friends trailer.