The outrigger and proa thread

[rodwade]

Ok so I'm running out of time to finish the boat by the Texas 200...So I'm going to have to improvise some quicker build methods on the Wa'Apa. I"m going to use some PVC outriggers similar to Gary's yellow Tamanu in Fiji. I trying to figure out how to get 4-6" PVC to lash to the AKA's Gary's had some piece bolted or lashed to it. Anyone have photos of how gary made that one? Eventually I'll go with some Fiberglass over Foam Ama's but simply don't have the time to shape and glass two of them right now. As it is, I'l probably going to be going with a 16' boat rather then 24'er.

Rodney

[peterchech]

Ok so I'm running out of time to finish the boat by the Texas 200...So I'm going to have to improvise some quicker build methods on the Wa'Apa. I"m going to use some PVC outriggers similar to Gary's yellow Tamanu in Fiji. I trying to figure out how to get 4-6" PVC to lash to the AKA's Gary's had some piece bolted or lashed to it. Anyone have photos of how gary made that one? Eventually I'll go with some Fiberglass over Foam Ama's but simply don't have the time to shape and glass two of them right now. As it is, I'l probably going to be going with a 16' boat rather then 24'er.

Rodney

Too little time to do a simple v-bottom s&g ama? The more volume in that ama the better...

[rodwade]

I agree, but I still have to glassmat the bottom of the boat and put the floors in...plus build AKA's mast, boom, and rudder assembly in two weeks. Oh yeah and take it out on the water once or twice

[Dan St Gean]

I agree, but I still have to glassmat the bottom of the boat and put the floors in...plus build AKA's mast, boom, and rudder assembly in two weeks. Oh yeah and take it out on the water once or twice

How 'bout a H14 ama? Those are available most everywhere cheap. Adapt the crossbeam pylon to where you'd lash up the boat and go!

Check Gary's blog archive for how he did it. If I weren't a 28 hour drive away, I might be able to help. And I managed to make it despite lots of "adventures"--even though it was assembled for the first time on the trip. I don't recommend that however.

I believe he got a length of pipe, had a shaped nosecone plug in the pipe, cut the aft end at a bit of an angle and glued in a piece of foam or ply to make it watertight. For the connections he had a 2x4with the crossed sticks style fo lashing.

[trefor]

Ok so I'm running out of time to finish the boat by the Texas 200...So I'm going to have to improvise some quicker build methods on the Wa'Apa. I"m going to use some PVC outriggers similar to Gary's yellow Tamanu in Fiji. I trying to figure out how to get 4-6" PVC to lash to the AKA's Gary's had some piece bolted or lashed to it. Anyone have photos of how gary made that one? Eventually I'll go with some Fiberglass over Foam Ama's but simply don't have the time to shape and glass two of them right now. As it is, I'l probably going to be going with a 16' boat rather then 24'er. Rodney

PVC Amas...
http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogsp.../pvc-amas.html
http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogsp...-pipe-ama.html

then there's this guy...
http://harperhub.com/projects/proa/boat.htm

[JimD]

Posting this pic so can can look at it without changing threads.

[Dusty Yevsky]

A significant solution which is hardly ever attributed... sailing skill sets that enable the kayaker who sails .

OP here.
Yep, guilty as charged. Lots of truths in the responses. My sailing ability is pretty lackluster so out comes my trusty paddle. This isn't a big deal since it sitting right there on the aka, though it's definitely a crutch. I'm hoping to improve my skills a little bit with the proa though shunting is hardly a standard skill.
Also, the leeboard and the rudder aren't built to NACA specifications. Instead I used TLAR engineering.

[slidercat]

I look forward to seeing ur new "big" cat ray. Get building!

I am, I swear!



Naturally, I completely changed the design from the stuff I posted earlier, which is why I'm now just starting to cut the panel scarfs.

[slidercat]

OP here.
Yep, guilty as charged. Lots of truths in the responses. My sailing ability is pretty lackluster so out comes my trusty paddle. .

Dusty, I'm not a great sailor myself, so I need a boat that's handy to sail and takes care of me when I screw up, which I do a lot. This is one reason why I'm always surprised at how few small multihull beachcruiser designs there are, compared to the vast number of small monohull designs available to home builders. The multis seem so safe and stable in comparison, and there's always that speed, which is fun.

[Gary Dierking]

Ok so I'm running out of time to finish the boat by the Texas 200...So I'm going to have to improvise some quicker build methods on the Wa'Apa. I"m going to use some PVC outriggers similar to Gary's yellow Tamanu in Fiji. I trying to figure out how to get 4-6" PVC to lash to the AKA's Gary's had some piece bolted or lashed to it. Anyone have photos of how gary made that one? Eventually I'll go with some Fiberglass over Foam Ama's but simply don't have the time to shape and glass two of them right now. As it is, I'l probably going to be going with a 16' boat rather then 24'er.

Rodney

I didn't want the struts to penetrate the pvc, which is weak when you start cutting holes in it. The base for the struts is a piece of 2x4 with the underside ground out to fit snugly on top of the 6"drain pipe. It is secured to the pipe with six big self tapping screws and an adhesive sealant like Sikaflex, 3M5200, or even a good roofing silicone. The struts go into holes in the base with just sealant inside the holes. The lashing that goes around the 2x4 and over the iako holds everything together. The black struts were lashed together with heavy cotton string and soaked with paint or epoxy to keep them from slipping.
Note that this all disassembles quite easily. Three simple rope lashings and it's all loose with the strut assembly staying with the ama.
You will be amazed at the integrity of this structure; I know i was, and now know why it is the most common ama connection seen in the Pacific.

[slidercat]

Gary, what are your struts made from?

[Gary Dierking]

Gary, what are your struts made from?

They're 1" diameter Fijian Kauri. Similar in weight and strength to Doug Fir.

[wtarzia]

Posting this pic so can can look at it without changing threads...

--- I love this boat, but the problem they had with was very fixable: sore butts. They sat on that aft ama and steered for the whole crossing. Perhaps this was an intentional monk-like rite of suffering, but jeez, brothers, you can build this successful beauty but you did not make a helmsman's seat? A plastic lawn chair with the legs sawed off and lashed down would have been better than nothing. When the Berques come asking me, I'm sending them to Ray, who can show them his seats :-) -- Wade

[peterchech]

If their little outrigger can take them across the atlantic, so can mine. Cu in france guys!

Seriously though, could a wa'apa cross the atlantic, assuming it were decked over? I wonder about this, because my catamaran club does a yearly" race to the statue of liberty", that i would love to do, but which involves some open water sailing. I still think ill do it, or else ill be seriously out-"manned" by those creepy french twins!

Rodwade, u ever consider just a cleaned log, like the islanders use? If ur building a shunter, pacific proa style, volume may not be as important...

[Dan St Gean]

If their little outrigger can take them across the atlantic, so can mine. Cu in france guys!

Seriously though, could a wa'apa cross the atlantic, assuming it were decked over? I wonder about this, because my catamaran club does a yearly" race to the statue of liberty", that i would love to do, but which involves some open water sailing. I still think ill do it, or else ill be seriously out-"manned" by those creepy french twins!

Rodwade, u ever consider just a cleaned log, like the islanders use? If ur building a shunter, pacific proa style, volume may not be as important...

If you get your systems dialed you could do lots more than you're comfortable with. The first transAtlantic crossing was on a modified Hobie 18! You'd have lots more space than say Hans Lindemann in his Klepper. That said, everyone does it east to west to take advantage of the currents and trades.

If you get your boat dialed, ther should be no reason not to do the race you're considering though. If it's against beachcats, you'll miss the party though.

As for the log, it's doable, but it's much more of a sit in the canoe or hike out affair. Guys that go fast have a deck guy that is human movable balast.

Dan

[JimD]

If their little outrigger can take them across the atlantic, so can mine. Cu in france guys!

Seriously though, could a wa'apa cross the atlantic, assuming it were decked over? ...

I would likey die from exposure, exhaustion, and ilness long before the boat got into trouble. It takes a certain kind of person to endure that sort of hardship.

[slidercat]

I think it's generally true that the boats can take more than we can, for the most part.

Unless you're an iron man who doesn't mind losing the skin off your feet, you need a place you can retreat to where it's dry and protected from the sun. Those crossings in beach cats just about killed the crews, reading about those voyages is like reading a horror story.

Wasn't the first catamaran crossing of the Atlantic by Wharram? He did it in (I think) a 24 foot cat, with two girls as crew.

Talk about your manly men.

[wtarzia]

The Berque's outrigger was heavily built and burdensome for a canoe. They also had cockpits to retreat to, cramjped by cruising standards, but roomy enough by, er, small backpacking tent standards ;-) They could stretch and and sit up straight in them, anyway, which is the most of what you need. In many ways an ideal ocean-crossing, small outrigger canoe. A small Wharram hull, say a Tiki between 21 and 26 feet, might offer comparable room, but I think the Berques beat the Wharram on that front. In any event, your wa'apa may not be the ideal ocean-crossing outrigger, but if you can stay sufficiently alert and deck over as much as you can, you could make some significant coastal passages, in as rough a water as you would want. Some of the roughest water is near coasts with the exception of epic rogue waves (which tend to spill in water around 200-600 feet deep) and some green giants. In fact coasts will sooner beat you death in those short-period waves hour after hour :-) So plenty of adventure remains while coasting or crossing bays and sounds, where you can get out 20 miles. 20 miles out or so would be plenty enough exciting for me, but within reach of getting back to shore in a day; 20 miles and at most one woman -- but perhaps I am too mild-mannered! -- Wade

[JimD]

I think the farther out you got the fewer women you would need.

[peterchech]

Women are terrible bad luck on board man, for many, many reasons...

[peterchech]

Does anyone have any more pics of bob daltons boat? I am particularly interested in how he did his rudder... i may be able to avoid cutting a transom if i do it the way he did, im just concerned about making it strong enough...

[wtarzia]

Just get canoe stern rudder hardware. No need to cut a transom if you don't want to. A slanted rudder isn't that bad; those sterm/stern angles are shallow enough. -- Wade

[peterchech]

Thanks wade i may try that, as much to save time on the water as anything. I wonder whether a little rake on the rudder may even help in tacking, by pushing up the bow of the boat somewhat...

[JimD]

All of the HSCA canoes have that setup. Essentially it's a tacking outrigger with a "safety ama" to help prevent ama to windward capsizes. Gary's got one on his Ulua as I remember as well.

Dan

Can anyone think of a reason not to make this saftey ama quite beamy and flat bottomed, perhaps slightly dory shaped or just square in cross section? Since it won't be sailed on and its only purpose is to add emergency boyancy it would seem the most boyancy per square inch of emersion would make sense.

[wtarzia]

Can anyone think of a reason not to make this saftey ama quite beamy and flat bottomed, perhaps slightly dory shaped or just square in cross section? Since it won't be sailed on and its only purpose is to add emergency boyancy it would seem the most boyancy per square inch of emersion would make sense.

--- If you don't mind slapping sounds on the flat surfaces when the occasional wave reaches it (how high will it be slung? what boat, the kayak? Tell us the dimensions of the vaka and a better answer is possible). But wide flat surfaces really invite some slamming, and so your akas and attachment must be ready to endure sudden shock loads. But the akas will be comparatively short, so maybe not a problem. Even so, the idea of a wide flat safety ama does not appeal to me. Rounded surfaces will be quieter and look nicer and offer max volume for minimum surface area.

That being said, what dimensions, how flat? The Hawaiian canoes sometimes use flat-ish safety amas. They are the experts here. But I do believe they tend to give the edges large radiuses. large radius edges will reduce *some* slap and also some windage (radius corners are important in reducing multihull windage, as Shuttleworth has argued in his on-line essays). Examine a lot of photos of these canoes and look at how high they carry their safety amas. Then the hard part -- scale those 30-45 foot canoes down to the boat you are planning. Then worry about scaling effects that are not intuitive. -- Wade

[JimD]

--- If you don't mind slapping sounds on the flat surfaces when the occasional wave reaches it (how high will it be slung? what boat, the kayak? Tell us the dimensions of the vaka and a better answer is possible). But wide flat surfaces really invite some slamming, and so your akas and attachment must be ready to endure sudden shock loads. But the akas will be comparatively short, so maybe not a problem. Even so, the idea of a wide flat safety ama does not appeal to me. Rounded surfaces will be quieter and look nicer and offer max volume for minimum surface area.

That being said, what dimensions, how flat? The Hawaiian canoes sometimes use flat-ish safety amas. They are the experts here. But I do believe they tend to give the edges large radiuses. large radius edges will reduce *some* slap and also some windage (radius corners are important in reducing multihull windage, as Shuttleworth has argued in his on-line essays). Examine a lot of photos of these canoes and look at how high they carry their safety amas. Then the hard part -- scale those 30-45 foot canoes down to the boat you are planning. Then worry about scaling effects that are not intuitive. -- Wade

I'd follow the Hawaiian model, more or less. They look quite flat. Sure the corners are rounded but you can do that with fiberglass. Thinking I'd make it around 9" wide, 8 feet long, or there abouts. Not sure how far above the waterline. A foot, foot and a half, maybe. I could experiment with that. The vaka is a 15'long x30" wide x 20" deep, the ama is deep vee single chine 12 feet long




Another thought, since it would only see the water at quite an angle of heel it could be mounted so that it presented a vee when out of the water, and would only be 'flat' when the boat went over the 30 or more degrees for it to bury. It could end up looking something like this thing, a pic I found googling around:

[wtarzia]

It's a good way to get maximum buoyancy in a compact float, that's for sure. But having once used a flat bottom ama, and having been driven to distraction at times by the slap, my personal choice would be more rounded depending on how close to a trimaran the configuration ends up. I was thinking about this tonight -- how far to stick out a safety ama, and how high, so I can still paddle? How high creates unacceptable windage? When have I spoiled the function of "safety" by raising too high or keeping too close in? (this last can at least be tested for in static tests just off the beach/ramp). Luckily for us, a small safety ama is more amenable to experimentation and revision, moreso than the base-canoe. -- Wade

[JimD]

... But having once used a flat bottom ama, and having been driven to distraction at times by the slap -- Wade

Yes, but your ama was for sailing on, was it not? This one may never see the water. Anyway, like you say, easy to revise. The worst that can happen is I have to change the bottom on it or build a new one.

[peterchech]

I think ur good jim. I always wondered what the purpose was of those square amas on the hawaiian outriggers, just chalked it up to traditional aesthetics.

[wtarzia]

Yes, but your ama was for sailing on, was it not? This one may never see the water. Anyway, like you say, easy to revise. The worst that can happen is I have to change the bottom on it or build a new one.

--- Yes, true. So for the safety ama it will come down to how low you rig it (or how early or late you will ask it to start doing its job).

In other news, I've just received plans for the Tamanu, which I decided after long thought is better for me than the Wa'apa. As much as I wanted a 24 footer, it was not going to fit in my garage, and it would require rigging of one of its sections at the ramp (no room in my tiny front yard to keep it assembled on trailer, and no access to my larger back yard). I will lose one capability that I regret -- the ability to cruise a wa'apa a long way, then stop, take it apart into 8 foot sections, and rent a small Uhaul van or pickup to come home. So if I ever do go on such a cruise with the Tamanu, I would have to rent a large Uhaul, but what the hell, the extra cost will not be prohibitive and such a plan would still make a good trip.

Three changes projected for the new boat:

(1) Make the cockpit one long 6 foot space (an option Gary Dierking has planned for). I would also keep a piece of the aft cockpit a deep foot well to the floor of the hull, just enough room for my feet, but otherwise I will keep the self-bailing deck (the deep foot well would not contain a debilitating amount of water).

(2) I want to keep a small mizzen sail, maybe the 20 footer I have now, so add a step for that, and probably have to move the design-mainmast step to fore a little.

(3) The big change: My garage door is 7 feet wide, and if I want to maintain the design beam, the ama has to fold back (yes, I am going for the single-outrigger mode to reduce some complications and set-up time as I am very whiny about that). I am figuring on applying the folding system of the Seaclipper 20 trimaran -- the best of the folding systems I've seen, at least for a workshop clutz such as myself. I would adapt it by eye, since one of its beauties is simplicity. Now this folding system is designed to work with an ama with flat sheer and full height up to the folding aka, so then the decision becomes, do I mimick such an ama -- this would mean the ama would be heavier and have more volume than the Tamanu design. Or do I build a lower profile ama and work out a tube and truss system to drop the bearing surface down to the lower ama? The bigger ama sounds simpler. I can try to be very careful to keep it light, restraining my natural tendency toward armoring with too many stringers and glass cloth.

Another option for the ama -- just thought it now looking again at the Hawaiian OC's and their amas -- would be a foam and glass ama with the two aka connections raised to the height of the folding system (which requires a fairly wide flat bearing surface) and then carefully fair these raised areas for least drag. Such an ama would have a little less windage and weight than a Seaclipper 20 type of ama.

I'm still doing 'spring' cleaning on my current outrigger and finishing off a pair of slightly lighter solid akas for it (recycled from the pre-boxbeam trimaran conversion), but after that I kick the boat and its trailer into the driveway and the garage can be dedicated to the Tamanu. -- Wade

[JimD]

I am building a bigger, 'full height' ama about 20" deep, vee bottom single chine. I will gladly trade off a little extra weight and windage for the huge increase in boyancy.

[wtarzia]

Catamaran and outrigger sailors will want to know that Jim Brown's volume II of his memoir Among the Multihulls is now out. I got mine from Amazon, where I reviewed it for the general sailor/sailing reader, but you folk will be interested particularly in one of his chapters that talks about sailing on his son Russ's big proa, Kauri, from the Carribean to New England. The chapters on the Windrider story are also interesting, and of course much else. -- Wade

[Dan St Gean]

Wade--replies within

--- Yes, true. So for the safety ama it will come down to how low you rig it (or how early or late you will ask it to start doing its job).

In other news, I've just received plans for the Tamanu, which I decided after long thought is better for me than the Wa'apa. As much as I wanted a 24 footer, it was not going to fit in my garage, and it would require rigging of one of its sections at the ramp (no room in my tiny front yard to keep it assembled on trailer, and no access to my larger back yard). I will lose one capability that I regret -- the ability to cruise a wa'apa a long way, then stop, take it apart into 8 foot sections, and rent a small Uhaul van or pickup to come home. So if I ever do go on such a cruise with the Tamanu, I would have to rent a large Uhaul, but what the hell, the extra cost will not be prohibitive and such a plan would still make a good trip.

**You'll love the Tamanu. It's super for how simple it is. How deep is your garage? It could be stretched with only the addition of a bit of ply--that's why I made my Ulua 21'.

Three changes projected for the new boat:

(1) Make the cockpit one long 6 foot space (an option Gary Dierking has planned for). I would also keep a piece of the aft cockpit a deep foot well to the floor of the hull, just enough room for my feet, but otherwise I will keep the self-bailing deck (the deep foot well would not contain a debilitating amount of water).

**It'll work great like that. How tall are you? You might think of making the self bailing portion 6" longer than you are tall. If you make the center section full depth, you'll have your full depth footwell & a place to sit. For two up sailing, make a removable seat to go over that area & you can sit on the back deck.

(2) I want to keep a small mizzen sail, maybe the 20 footer I have now, so add a step for that, and probably have to move the design-mainmast step to fore a little.

**I doubt you'll have to move the main step much if at all. Your mizzen will do the most good aft anyhow which leaves 9' + of room for your boom before you start to get to the aft BH #1.

(3) The big change: My garage door is 7 feet wide, and if I want to maintain the design beam, the ama has to fold back (yes, I am going for the single-outrigger mode to reduce some complications and set-up time as I am very whiny about that). I am figuring on applying the folding system of the Seaclipper 20 trimaran -- the best of the folding systems I've seen, at least for a workshop clutz such as myself. I would adapt it by eye, since one of its beauties is simplicity. Now this folding system is designed to work with an ama with flat sheer and full height up to the folding aka, so then the decision becomes, do I mimick such an ama -- this would mean the ama would be heavier and have more volume than the Tamanu design. Or do I build a lower profile ama and work out a tube and truss system to drop the bearing surface down to the lower ama? The bigger ama sounds simpler. I can try to be very careful to keep it light, restraining my natural tendency toward armoring with too many stringers and glass cloth.

**I favor a very narrow and very tall ama--a bit like Randy smythe's ama in fact. It'll ease the alignment issues. You could copy the idea of Peter's ama coupled with a bit of Seaclipper 20 and the W17 ama depending on the way you want to angle it. Both the Seaclipper and the W17 are box section with the bottom corner clipped off at 45 degrees. This give you the smoth ride of a v bottom with greater buoyancy when pressed--and an easy build even when making it up by the seat of your pants.

Another option for the ama -- just thought it now looking again at the Hawaiian OC's and their amas -- would be a foam and glass ama with the two aka connections raised to the height of the folding system (which requires a fairly wide flat bearing surface) and then carefully fair these raised areas for least drag. Such an ama would have a little less windage and weight than a Seaclipper 20 type of ama.

**Also a very good idea if you want to build in foam. Lighter for sure.

I'm still doing 'spring' cleaning on my current outrigger and finishing off a pair of slightly lighter solid akas for it (recycled from the pre-boxbeam trimaran conversion), but after that I kick the boat and its trailer into the driveway and the garage can be dedicated to the Tamanu. -- Wade

Good on 'ya! Get your design idea nailed down a bit and go for it.

Dan

[Dan St Gean]

In other news somewhat outrigger related, I was able to get my two new beams mounted to my double tamanu yesterday. I'll have to get the images off the camera. I'm hoping to fool with it a bunch this week and next--possibly have it sailable for our June trip to Northern WI. If not, it might make the trip just to get worked on a bit while up there.






Finally, I'm considering selling my Ulua. I have a rough idea what I've got in it, but no comps to help with the pricing. The only other boats similar to it are a Raptor 16 in the UK and two Holopuni canoes much larger than my Ulua. I'm in no rush to unload it, just have not been able to use it as much as it deserves.

Dan

[peterchech]

What r u gonna list it for dan? Prob a small market for that kind of boat in the midwest...

[Dan St Gean]

Not sure really. I'd like to at least get what I put into it. I'd anticipate it being a better coastal boat or somewhere there's a beach to launch from rather than from my rocky lakefront in WI.

Dan

[peterchech]

After re-reading garys book, there is no mention of pitting ply gussets on the corners of the transoms for reinforcement. However, all pics of his wa'apa show ply in the corners of the transoms on top of where the bolts go. I thought it was overkill, but 7 knots in rough water makes me re-think the concept of overkill generally...



it only goes back about a quarter inch, but needless to say i will be adding triangular gussets soon to all corners...

I also had a sheer glue joint failure on my leeboard, the mount is only held in place by the nails i put in as reinforcement. Building a daggerboard now...

[peterchech]

Also had some problems with flex in the hulls, especially where the mast partner meets the sides. This particular hull section has alot of forces on it, including a daggerboard, so some serious reinforcement was called for. Threw in a bulkhead, inwhales and a ply bracket for the mast step. Today we glass taped it all in.



While its out of the water, im gonna saw off all the extra seats/mast partners in the boat to save on weight. They were there until i determined the sail arrangement i prefer. I think i've got it now, so the seats are just heavy and get in the way. God bless the sawzal

[DriftingSon]

Peter- this is valuable information for us all, but especially timely for me. I've just assembled my two hulls and I immediately felt they could use a bit more support in the attachment area. My boat will be pounding swells like yours, so a little weight tax for strength is not going to bother me a bit. I've also pretty much decided that I will build the fore hull with the self bailing floor to help strengthen it, and will keep the aft open, where I assume I'll mostly be sitting. Perhaps I'll add the floor there later on after trials.

I just realized I should post some progress pics.

BTW Peter- What exactly is cracked in the first image? Is it just resin/filler at the seam that is separating, or is there some wood failing too?

[Gary Dierking]

After re-reading garys book, there is no mention of pitting ply gussets on the corners of the transoms for reinforcement. However, all pics of his wa'apa show ply in the corners of the transoms on top of where the bolts go. I thought it was overkill, but 7 knots in rough water makes me re-think the concept of overkill generally...
it only goes back about a quarter inch, but needless to say i will be adding triangular gussets soon to all corners...

You'll note in the drawing that the connection area between the hull sections is decked over. The seats or decks act as gussets at these stressed areas. Triangular gussets are okay but doing it as I've shown is even better.

[peterchech]

Gary i didn't mean it as a criticism of ur book, which is an excellent resource on not just outriggers, but general boatbuilding as well. I ha actually seen the ply decking, but as there was no specific reference to it i thought it could be left out. Learned my lesson, when in doubt, clarify!

Driftingson im really glad this is useful to others. I kind of hope this thread will remain a reference for anyone building one of garys boats. Instead of people throwing out untried theories and speculation trying to pass as fact, i think most of the posters here have actually tried the things they advocate, and often have pictures to prove it.

The crack is too small to tell, but seems to be a delamination of the glue line. Not sure though. I actually had glassed the end of the gunwhale to the transom, and that glass broke, indicating some severe forces. Dam now that i see carts post i kind of wanna add gussets the way he did, but too late now. The good thing about the triangular gussets is u can line up the grain of the ply at 45 degrees to the gunwhale, making it stiffer, and it takes up less space. But it may be less stiff than garys way. I guess ill find out soon how well this works!

Btw, i was so concerned about the joint at the corners when i was building that i put a 1/4 in radius on them and glass taped them. This may create more water resistance, or less i dont know really, but i really felt better about it that way. May have been what kept the boat together despite my lack of gussets!

[Gary Dierking]

Btw, i was so concerned about the joint at the corners when i was building that i put a 1/4 in radius on them and glass taped them. This may create more water resistance, or less i dont know really, but i really felt better about it that way. May have been what kept the boat together despite my lack of gussets!

A radius and then glassing is a good way to go, but the next step will eliminate the drag at the joint. Use epoxy filler to form a square edge over the glassing and you will have a very small gap when the hull sections are bolted together.

[peterchech]

Installed the brackets.


Then i noticed this, some cracking in the timber around the washer. I realized the timber framing isn't that well secured, just butted up against eachother. So while im at it im gonna add some small triangular ply (2 inch by 2 inch) "washers" to go under the bolt washers. Besides preventing compression of the wood and also distributing the force of the bolts more evenly to the framing.

Gonna add an extra lashing hole next to the current ones too, to make lashings easier and less stressed by not forcing them all through one small hole.


I've been busy at work lately, but my father in law looked up a brilliant way to make an accurate naca foil on our daggerboard. Takes a while, but is very accurate. Note the template is glued to the bottom of our board. Then precise grooves are routed at the exact depth of the foil shape every inch or so. The in between is then chiseled/planed out and sanded smooth. The board is of several layers of ply, totaling 1 3/4 inch thick. The glue in the ply seems to be really rough on router bits, and creates alot of smoke/dust. This may be more due to a cheap bit than anything though.

The submerged part of the board is about 14" by 4', giving about4.7 sq feet of foil area for what will be about 150 sq ft of sail area. I hope this is enough area, but given the hard chines of the vaka and ama i think it will be... i forget the formula for foil area to sail area.... anyone wanna comment on this? I remember kevin o'neil experimented with a huge daggerboard once, but dont know the result. I would have gone bigger, but that would have made it harder to handle...

[slidercat]

Peter, I like the foil idea!

I keep thinking there must be some way to set up a router jig to do the work, and that comes pretty close. Have you seen the spreadsheets on Duckworks that let you cut strips to a particular width for building these foils?

Slider's board is a little smaller than that, but her sail area is a little smaller too.

[peterchech]

Yeah my father in law was telling me about it. Basically making the router go horizontally across the board instead of vertically. More accurate for sure, and much less sanding/shaping. However once the bit gets toward the leading edge of the board, weird things happen. That's what the table on duckworks is for. It just seemed that setting the whole jig up would take longer than this method, and since we want back on the water asap, we went with it. We may try the other method on the rudder though, which is much more relaxed because we can still be on the water with the steering oar while we take our time doing the rudder.

Seriously though, routers are the best tool there is. We didn't have one for almost a year of building stuff, but now would never turn back. Totally worth the $100 for a small one. If i was broke and trying to build boats, id first get a jigsaw, then get a router. Hands down. Other tools are nice, but the router saves so much time in so many ways its amazing.

[Dusty Yevsky]

The submerged part of the board is about 14" by 4', giving about4.7 sq feet of foil area for what will be about 150 sq ft of sail area. I hope this is enough area, but given the hard chines of the vaka and ama i think it will be... i forget the formula for foil area to sail area.... anyone wanna comment on this? I remember kevin o'neil experimented with a huge daggerboard once, but dont know the result. I would have gone bigger, but that would have made it harder to handle...

Peter,
I think you’re good with the area on the leeboard. I seem to recall that the total foil area should be about 3.5% of sail area though I can’t remember where I found that tidbit. Keep in mind that this subject falls under the black arts of boat design and even pros have to do real world tests to see if their creations work. Also, if you ever build another leeboard you should strongly consider using solid timber. When you use ply, about 40% of the material is not providing any stiffness and just adding weight.

[peterchech]

Thanks dusty that's comforting about the board area. Not sure about the strength issue though, ply is pretty strong, but besides, i had it and it was the quickest way to get back ob the water.

Saw this at my catamaran club this week:






A wharram tiki 38. 5 french guys are gonna sail her home friday. A beautiful,simple boat. But i was surprised at how small it was for a 38' boat. Very little space for its size. They said upwind its not too hot, but they've gotten her up to 15 knots before they got the spunnaker.

[Gary Dierking]

Now that's a roof rack! So it's sayonara to my Wa'apa that's been sold and will eventually find its way to Rarotonga next year. I sold it to make space for a new 20' prototype Va'a Motu that I hope to start on soon. Drawings to come.

[johnno]

Looking forward to those drawings!

[peterchech]

Gary have you found 20' to be sort of an ideal size for a recreational outrigger?