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Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #736

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    that's a lot of boats in such a small space!

    trevor
    I showed my wife this...I have currently 3 boats a 26' Panga and a 18' aluminum Jon (duck hunting boat). I told her if she wasn't careful, my garage would look like Dan's. Now if only I could find a way to teach the woodshop class.

  2. #737
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Mine isn't too far behind his, really. With a 16' outrigger spread out in various states of finish and an eight foot sailing dinghy with a couple of different sailing rigs. It will be even more so if I get around to building a Storer Quick Canoe or 14' plywood Ozarks Johnboat next winter, to do some river floating with. Leaning on the johnboat, since I live in the Ozarks and it's kind of indigenous to the area.

    Trevor

  3. #738
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rodwade View Post
    I showed my wife this...I have currently 3 boats a 26' Panga and a 18' aluminum Jon (duck hunting boat). I told her if she wasn't careful, my garage would look like Dan's. Now if only I could find a way to teach the woodshop class.
    I kinda feel the same. Despite my lack of typing skill, I actually teach English. I do get to use their sweet shop space which is both a blessing and a curse. I can use anything I want, but I have to both clean up after each use & move all my stuff out before the next day's classes. It's tough now that the Tamanu hulls are 99% complete to horse them around off the trailer, up 5 steps, and into the shop solo. It's not too bad using the kayak carrier seen in the photo with the garage door closed. I'm kind of glad I don't teach the woodworking classes as the red oak they use 99% of the time is a bit irritating to me. WRC and Doug Fir are worse, but I'd have to go with a cartrige mask if I did it all day long in that dusty of an environent.

    As for the garage photo, my wife is very tolerant with my boat addiction, but I do need to thin the fleet or at least relocate some of it. I have sold the kayak to my crew and owner of the port hull on the double Tamanu, so I'm one step closer to thinning the fleet. I have the Ulua as outrigger or tri still and the Hobie 18--in addition to the pair of Tamanu hulls. I'm robbing most everything H18 from the boat to complete the Double Tamanu cat leaving me with a H18 platform to either part out or store waiting for the rig, rudders, and hardware to return. My in law's have a cabin in the North Woods of Wisconsin, so I can keep some boats there, but he's got a Hobie wave and a bunch of kayaks well suited to that chain of lakes. They live most of the year on Sanibel, so I'm thinking of a boat to take there. The H18 is fun but a serious setup hassle at 45-60 minutes to launch and about the same to recover. The Ulua would be better if kept on a flatbed trailer as a single outrigger, but I don't have anywhere to store it out of the sun. The S. Florida sun would kill it pretty quickly I think.

    I think my ideal boat quiver would be a pair of stand up paddleboards, a pair of SOF kayaks, an outrigger canoe that can sail and paddle, and a bigger cruising cat. If I can trade some of the boats I've got to get that combination, I think I'd be set. I'll have to act before next Fall though because my father in law isn't going to drag the Wave and kayaks down next year. Being in Sanibel boatless would be a bummer.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan St Gean; 03-23-2011 at 11:31 AM.

  4. #739
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Yeah, boatless in the Lee County area is a bummer. I hope to cartop my outrigger the next time I head down there. Even if I only get in a day or two of sailing while there. I'd love to get back down there on the water with an adult's appreciation for the place.

    Trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    Yeah, boatless in the Lee County area is a bummer. I hope to cartop my outrigger the next time I head down there. Even if I only get in a day or two of sailing while there. I'd love to get back down there on the water with an adult's appreciation for the place.

    Trevor
    Fortunately, I still have the Hobie Wave and three kayaks down there right now. They just won't be making the trip next year. Whatever does go down either needs to stay or be cartopped down next to the cartop carrier. I can think of two kayaks that would be no sweat in J cradles on either side of the cartop carrier. The rest? Not sure. Maybe I'll hve to make a trip down in August and fly back? Lots of hours behind the wheel for a potential 3 weeks of having another boat....

  6. #741
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I just got an email from a local metal supplier (Rose Metal Products, Springfield, MO) that carries mast grade aluminum tubing (6061-T6). I thought I'd have to drive three hours to KC or St. Louis to get it, but luckily stumbled across these guys in a search this morning. Anyway, they carry 2"OD .065 wall tubing in 12' lengths and I am now thinking of picking up one and epoxying a hardwood dowel in the end to make up the lost two feet of the mast. Mike Monies did something similar on his cartopper mast and a couple other guys on the SailOklahoma Yahoo group have done comparable things.

    Would it be better to have them cut down a 2"OD .125 wall piece that's 24' long and use the 14' section for the mast and the remaining 10' plus a dowel for the boom? Rather than the lighter walled .065 /12' piece and a laminated solid wood boom? Would the .125 wall tubing mast and spar be heavier than the .065 wall mast and a wooden spar? I've no experience with these materials to wrap my head around it.

    Trevor

  7. #742
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I have often contemplated doing that trefor, but was put off by the cost. Let me know how it turns out!

    Any reason you are going for aluminum instead of wood?
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

  8. #743

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    Would it be better to have them cut down a 2"OD .125 wall piece that's 24' long and use the 14' section for the mast and the remaining 10' plus a dowel for the boom? Rather than the lighter walled .065 /12' piece and a laminated solid wood boom? Would the .125 wall tubing mast and spar be heavier than the .065 wall mast and a wooden spar? I've no experience with these materials to wrap my head around it.

    Trevor
    Trevor, the .125 wall tubing is 2x the weight of .065 as it's twice as thick, and probably twice as strong. Most production boats have aluminum booms and masts so don't fret too much. I don't think I've heard too many times of someone being upset that their mast was too strong. As long as the weight isn't too bad I wouldn't worry about it.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    I have often contemplated doing that trefor, but was put off by the cost. Let me know how it turns out!

    Any reason you are going for aluminum instead of wood?
    Ease of build, really. I have very limited use of a table saw, my father-in-law's. So making a laminated mast or birdsmouth mast would be a pain. Plus, I'd like to shave off a few hours of construction time. The guy at the metal shop quoted me just over $40 for a 24' 2" diameter .125 wall tube cut to 14'. I'm guessing I still get to keep the other 10', after the cut. With no shipping, that isn't too bad, really.

    Trevor

  10. #745
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rodwade View Post
    Trevor, the .125 wall tubing is 2x the weight of .065 as it's twice as thick, and probably twice as strong. Most production boats have aluminum booms and masts so don't fret too much. I don't think I've heard too many times of someone being upset that their mast was too strong. As long as the weight isn't too bad I wouldn't worry about it.
    I think I may just go into their shop next week and pick up a few pieces of what they have in stock just to feel the weight of it. Then make my decision.

    Trevor

  11. #746
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    I think I may just go into their shop next week and pick up a few pieces of what they have in stock just to feel the weight of it. Then make my decision.

    Trevor
    Take that deal and drun with it! You can use the other 10' as a boom with a dowel inserted to make up the rest of the distance. My mast on the Ulua is 21' with 12' of 3.5" 6061 that I thought was .125 when I picked it up. It wasn't and stupid me I used it anyway. It was .250! Yes as in 1/4". Heavy. Too heavy. Fine for a sharpie, but not fine for an outrigger I have to step the mast afloat. Anyhow, I built a tapered birdsmouth top 12' and overlapped the joint by 1'. Also overkill. Learning to build strong but light is not for first timers... I've contemplated using it for my double tamanu's aft beam, but am reluctant to cut up a nice (but Heavy) mast.

    Anyhow, while you are there, you should get a couple feet of the next size up with an ID of 2.125 or so. Check out the sweet roller furling setup on the XCR build at bensboats.blogspot.com or the Raptor 16. Different setups, but both really nice. Alternately you can ship 8' sections by UPS by vendors like onlinemetals.com & get some slip fit piece to go inside. Are you doing the Hawaiian rig?

    Dan

  12. #747

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Dan don't feel bad. I asked my neighbor for a small piece of metal from his work for the mast base tube. He brought me home a piece of 2" Stainless Steel probably .25 thickness. You thought that Aluminum was heavy!

  13. #748
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Dan,

    I may just do that. After some thinking last night, I think an aluminum mast and boom with a dowel extension seems like a simple solve to my mast problem. I am doing the Hawaiian tacking setup, straight boomed and roller reefed/furled.

    How do you fasten cleats and other line attachments to aluminum tubing?

    Trev

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    That's a screaming deal for a 2" mast. You couldn't build one for less.

    Dan

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan St Gean View Post
    That's a screaming deal for a 2" mast. You couldn't build one for less.
    Ahem... I built mine for $10.00... :-)

    I have to say though, Trefor that is def a hell of a deal for aluminum tubing, and if I had had that option I def would have gone with it. How much does that aluminum tube weigh? Maybe you could buy a little extra and use it for crossbeams? That would really save you some time...

    I would do a forum search before buying though, as I recall some people having problems with aluminum flagpoles that were adapted to masts. Then again there is a tendency on this forum for some people to just arbitrarily claim that anything not stamped "marine" couldn't possibly work in a boat...
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

  16. #751

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    typically masts have cleats rivited into them. Be sure to use aluminum rivits so that you don't have different metal types which causes galvanic oxidation. Alum-Alum, Stainless-stainless, Mopar found out the hard way. My 2009 jeep is in the shop all this week because they put aluminum door hinges on steel body with no insulators between the metals. The door hinges are corroding so fast they have to keep my jeep this week to repaint all the hinges under warranty.

  17. #752

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Ahem... I built mine for $10.00... :-)

    I have to say though, Trefor that is def a hell of a deal for aluminum tubing, and if I had had that option I def would have gone with it. How much does that aluminum tube weigh? Maybe you could buy a little extra and use it for crossbeams? That would really save you some time...

    I would do a forum search before buying though, as I recall some people having problems with aluminum flagpoles that were adapted to masts. Then again there is a tendency on this forum for some people to just arbitrarily claim that anything not stamped "marine" couldn't possibly work in a boat...
    Peter flag poles sometimes have parts like pullies and such which are mild steel and will corrode quickly. Also some of the issue may have been wall thickness not being large enough and the "masts" bending. Flag poles typically don't endure the stress we put on these boats.

  18. #753
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Ahem... I built mine for $10.00... :-)

    I have to say though, Trefor that is def a hell of a deal for aluminum tubing, and if I had had that option I def would have gone with it. How much does that aluminum tube weigh? Maybe you could buy a little extra and use it for crossbeams? That would really save you some time...

    ..
    But is it 24' long? ;-) Using aluminum tube for the iakos is a super time saver as building box beams is time consuming. If you build some Tamanu type saddles they'll work a treat. If your ama is large volume, youmight want to go larger than 2" though, as on the trimaran tack it has to resist all the torque of the freestanding mast and the buoyancy of the ama. The XCR seemed to do fine with smaller tubes as did "Chief's" tri using a 50 square foot sail. Up the sail area or volume of the ama and you'll have to up the strength of the iakos.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan St Gean; 03-24-2011 at 01:38 PM.

  19. #754
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Peter,

    It's spar grade aluminum (6061-T6). At speced dimensions from the book. Actually, if I go with the .125, it's a little beefier than designed. Gary calls for 2mm, which I think is closer to the .065 walled material. .125 adds another mm or so to the wall thickness. Also, when i bugged Mike and Jackie Monies about the mast used on their cartopper, Noble Plan, they told me they used .065 wall and it's worked really well (they even used a smaller diameter, by .25"). If it works on a 16', 59sq leg-of-mutton, it should do OK on a 54sq Hawaiian rig, i think.

    I've already made my crossbeams/iakos. If i went with the tubing, I think I'd have to build cradles to sit on the gunwales to accommodate the round beam. The wooden straight iakos I've made start rectangular at the gunwales and taper round to the ama connection points. Since I'm using crossed struts to support the iakos, I wanted the connection points there to lash easier.

    My whole thinking on the canoe has been to make it as simple as possible. With my inspiration being third world fishing outriggers. If I could get large diameter bamboo in Missouri, without costing an arm or a leg, I'd have used it for all spars and beams. I don't even know if I'll graduate beyond a homemade tarp sail.

    Trevor

  20. #755

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I've been looking for bamboo here in Texas as well had a guy offer to "get" me some from Alabama or somewhere for an ungodly price.

  21. #756
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    due to your post I just made some calls and spec'd some aluminum near me, I was hoping to use it for the tramps, .125" walled 2" diameter tubing costs $300 for the minimum 48' length they will sell me... too much since I already have all the wood I need to make hollow box beams...
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan St Gean View Post
    If your ama is large volume, youmight want to go larger than 2" though, as on the trimaran tack it has to resist all the torque of the freestanding mast and the buoyancy of the ama. The XCR seemed to do fine with smaller tubes as did "Chief's" tri using a 50 square foot sail. Up the sail area or volume of the ama and you'll have to up the strength of the iakos.

    Dan
    My ama should be about 8"x8" and 11' 10" long, glass over foam with a plywood stringer/shear web. It'll be straight with upturned ends, based off of Mr. Dierking's ama shown here... http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/quikama.html

    But with struts like he uses on his T2 or his Fijian Tamanu with a PVC ama. That way I can maybe convert the boat to a proa at a later date, without too much effort.

    Trevor

  23. #758
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I'm a fan of slightly larger amas. I like to use my tramp space for hanging out and lying around. With roughly 4.88888888 cubic feet and water weighing in the neighborhood of 62-64 pounds, you displace potentially 300 pounds. Subtract the ama's weight, the weight of the structure over it and so forth and you are left with perhaps 250 pounds on the upside. I'm 220 all by myself without a life jacket or crew. I'd rather up the volume to something a bit more. Add a couple inches to the height or a foot or two to to the length and keep everything else the same. Then you can lounge with your crew on the tramp without swamping.

    Kevin O'Neil is on hes second ama and here's what he wrote about it,
    "The ama was still the little ply v cross section ama. It was a 'sinker', it wouldn't hold me up, so I had to dance in and out as the wind changed. And the ply mounts to the beams were giving out. Its time was done, I got rid of it. I wanted a bigger ama, one that would hold up two people if asked. 600 lbs of volume sounded good to me. I drew some shapes I liked and read Gary Dierking's article on making a glass over solid foam ama."



    The 300# ama is great for a solo boat, but I like to be able to sail with crew if I want.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan St Gean; 03-24-2011 at 01:33 PM.

  24. #759
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I'll go ahead and reply to this here.

    Quote Originally Posted by paradoxbox View Post
    Howdy all.

    Spring and summer are on their way!

    I want to build a boat this year. I have no boat building experience so I want to build something very simple, fairly small but fast. I guess under 20 feet but longer is OK too if there are good cheap to build plans out there.

    My conclusion is that a proa is probably the simplest thing to make as proas are light, fast and strong.

    Anyone have any super simple build ideas or plans that they know of? I have seen a REALLY simple looking outrigger/proa on youtube that looked interesting.

    I live in Japan so I have a lot of access to bamboo.

    I was thinking maybe simple plywood slabs for the hulls, with bamboo and lashing for everything else, and crab claw or lateen rig using a tarp/home made sail. I'd like to keep the budget under around $300 if possible - Don't tell me it can't be done, a quickly put together multihull doesn't need that many sheets of wood..! Bamboo is free around here so the only thing that ought to cost is the plywood, tarp for a sail, rope, screws and glue. I figure I can probably make a mast out of bamboo. I could probably even make the smaller hull out of PVC or bamboo.

    One other requirement, I don't have a shop so everything is going to be done with hand tools. I'm not building a masterpiece, just a fun little thing to zip up and down the coast at a good pace.

    The boat does not need to last forever. Some cheap waterproof paint or sealant is good enough for me, if the thing lasts more than 2 seasons I'll be happy.

    If you have any ideas or links to designs, let me see em!

    So far I've got my eye on this thing:
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/wa_apa.html
    the wa'apa can be done inexpensively. $300 is pushing it a bit. i'm thinking mine will end up around $500 and i've cut corners a lot. you might come close to your goal, if you avoid epoxy altogether, using polyurethane glue and just painting the hull. you'll take a hit on abrasion resistance, though. if you see my pic posted on the previous page of this thread, i'm sitting about $200-250 into my build at the point that it was taken. i'm about half done. the cost was spread out over the past five-six months.

    hand tools shouldn't be too much of a problem if you are using bamboo for all your connecting timbers and spars. so far i've built mine with a jig saw, cordless screwdriver, drill, palm sander and hand plane. i did have to borrow my father-in-law's table saw/band saw for cutting the chine logs and stems.

    trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Hi folks-

    You can add me to the list of people who have plans to build something from Gary's book. I'm looking at the T2 and I was wondering about it's paddling performance?

  26. #761
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Ting View Post
    Hi folks-

    You can add me to the list of people who have plans to build something from Gary's book. I'm looking at the T2 and I was wondering about it's paddling performance?
    Kevin just linked a blog with a guy that built on eon the beach in Mexico. Check out his build at http://grillabongquixotic.wordpress....e-flying-proa/

    He added side rudders and it's working well now.
    Dan

  27. #762
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    A couple of photos of the new(er) trimaran conversion of my single-outrigger are posted at http://www.wtarzia.com/Trimaran_conversion.html . I didn't update most of the text I wrote last November; will get around to that. -- Wade

  28. #763

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Going to look at some bamboo Groves tomorrow. WHat sizes should I be looking for and it what lengths? Any ideas on how to tell good from bad?

  29. #764

    Default The outrigger and proa thread

    picked up some cut bamboo...scored and found a guy willing to give me all the cut bamboo that was in the grove. Found some pieces 2"+ in diameter that was just about full wood inside. Aslo bought a timber bamboo plant for the back yard that will provide more if needed in the next few years or so. He even offered to cut me some green bamboo if I want some. It helps that he is about 15 miles away. He said he has some 4" pieces in his back yard if I wanted them. He had so many species of bamboo to choose between. He helped out a lot with choices of what is "good" bamboo's to use for boat building.

  30. #765
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    Default The outrigger and proa thread

    Nice guy rod! I wish i could grow bamboo up here, but the better species need a warm climate, i am told... what are u going to be using the bamboo for?
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

  31. #766

    Default The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Nice guy rod! I wish i could grow bamboo up here, but the better species need a warm climate, i am told... what are u going to be using the bamboo for?
    possibly Iako's, mast and boom. I'm thinking about a paddle eventually, but I have a ways to go. It's the wife's Bday today so no boat building today. Looked through the grove and this guy had tons of bamboo. I just didn't know how expensive it gets. Cost me 100 for a 3 gallon container of Giant timber bamboo. Guy was super nice and had some awsome stock. He even offered to cut me some green sticks from his house if I needed them.

  32. #767
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    Default The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rodwade View Post
    possibly Iako's, mast and boom. I'm thinking about a paddle eventually, but I have a ways to go. It's the wife's Bday today so no boat building today. Looked through the grove and this guy had tons of bamboo. I just didn't know how expensive it gets. Cost me 100 for a 3 gallon container of Giant timber bamboo. Guy was super nice and had some awsome stock. He even offered to cut me some green sticks from his house if I needed them.
    Think twice about bamboo iakos. With hollow iakos, I normally put a solid section where the lashings go and there is no easy way I know of to do this with bamboo. There have been failures by people who have tried bamboo iakos because they tend to crush under the lashings where the stress is greatest.
    Gary

  33. #768

    Default The outrigger and proa thread

    Gary do you know the type of bamboo they used? I ask because I didn't know all the different types before this weekend. I also found that not all bamboo is alike. Some while being 4" in diameter only has a 1/4" of wall thickness or less. Some of the pieces I picked up have a hollow section less then the diamter of a pencil. I will definatly test it before hand.

  34. #769

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I made Slipper's sprit out of bamboo I got from a guy who has a bamboo garden just west of Pensacola. He charged me 20 bucks for a 20 foot section-- maybe 3.5 to 4 inches at the butt end. It's light and works fine, but with bamboo, you have to take a slightly different approach to securing hardware. It's a bad idea to drill and bolt. What I did was to lash bronze rings to the top and bottom for snotter purchase and peak line. I used nylon seine twine, and then covered the lashing with epoxy to stabilize it. I had to lash a cleat to the butt end too.

    It's good to get the bamboo well in advance of use, so you can let it dry out slowly in a place sheltered from the sun.

  35. #770

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    That's the plan..lashing. I actually have access to some kevlar line we use for spearfishing. Boom connection is one of the only issues I'm debating, but thought of epoxying in a foot for that. Here's the boom piece I planned on using...about 8' long.

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