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Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #36
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    LOL a woman's touch is missing huh? Actually, I am building the boat with my father in law, in his house, and he is currently a bachelor yes. Makes building at his house sooooooo much smoother I have to say :-)

  2. #37
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    LOL a woman's touch is missing huh? Actually, I am building the boat with my father in law, in his house, and he is currently a bachelor yes. Makes building at his house sooooooo much smoother I have to say :-)
    Its all making sense now. ...the cat on the sofa is a nice homey touch.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Interesting ama! After stretching my ulua's ama to 16' and increasing it's max diameter to 8" is was still short of flotation for stepping off on the ama side. While not traditional, I LOVE a buoyant ama and the ability to sleep on a tramp. Would you PM me the specs of your ama? I'm midway through the Tamanu build (sidetracked as a cat at present, but ultimately will be an outrigger or tri.).

    21' Ulua as single outrigger

    21' Ulua as tri

    View from the dock. I end up putting in the boat for a week at a time and scrubbing the bottom rather than try to drag it up the rocks. It is really a better beach boat than a dock boat with the low volume ama. I also ended trimming off the iako ends since they had a tendancy to snag the dock or people's ankles.

    Tamanu as cat on the Texas200.

    Dan

  4. #39
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Dan, I will post the dimensions here when I get home and see my measurements. Are you (or anyone else for that matter) planning on doing the texas 200 again? or the EC, or OBX? I am seriously considering driving down to one of these events this summer, it would be really cool to get a bunch of outriggers competing in one of these events together (like the Michalak lagunas and the PDR's do sometimes)

  5. #40
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    isn't there a texas proa championships?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I think I'll be doing the Tip of the Mitt this summer with my crew Brian. I've done the T200 in 08 on my H18 and in'09 on our Tamanu hulls with H18 everything else. The 28 hour drive kinda makes it less than appealing. Plus there's lots of places to explore. The EC doesn't work with my schedule. Not sure if the OBX is going to be an annual event or not. The Tip of the Mitt is only 6 or 7 hours away and BEAUTIFUL! Well worth you time to head out West for a trip.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan St Gean; 12-16-2010 at 12:51 PM.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Guys, I am going to make a set of gently curving akas to drop my two amas 5 inches -- what kind if springback, if any at all, should I expect? I will be epoxying four ~ 5/8 thick, 10 foot DF planks into an approximate 2.5 x 2.5" square section.--Wade

  8. #43
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Yeah I agree Tim Anderson's account of trying to reach cuba in a small outrigger canoe was really inspirational for me! I have often dreamed of cruising to far off places in my small sailboats but he actually goes out and does it! I wonder why he didn't make it to cuba though? Forgive my nautical ignorance, but is the gulf stream so powerful between cuba and florida that passage is almost impossible without swinging waaaaaaay west first? Is that how cuban refugees are able to just drift to florida without much for propulsion?

    >...On another note, did a trial fitting of my two piece outrigger last night. Rough calculation gives it about 400 lbs displacement before submersion. 16' long, widest beam 8 inches not including gunwhale, 4 inches beam at bottom. Not sure what the waterline beam will be, but even at its widest that is a pretty good length/beam figure for a multihull.
    ---- According to Tim and his GPS, the Stream was sending him backward at some point, though of course to him it just felt like sailing! No wonder sailors were a superstitious bunch. He eventually just wore himself out, I think because he rather hastily planned his ergonomics -- his method of resting was to lay on that flat plank of a side-seat and wrap a rope around his wrist in case he fell off. Not very restful, and between that, illusions, and some slight hypothermia and vicious current, he had to abort.

    Your ama looks good. It has a slight flat bottom? As I have said before, beware of slapping. Your narrow flat may be OK, but it may also drive you batty in some conditions. My two flat-bottom amas drove me to my deep-V, which I adore in many ways (were it not for its overly fine ends = low volume forward, I'd keep it). -- Wade

  9. #44
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Guys, I am going to make a set of gently curving akas to drop my two amas 5 inches -- what kind if springback, if any at all, should I expect? I will be epoxying four ~ 5/8 thick, 10 foot DF planks into an approximate 2.5 x 2.5" square section.--Wade
    I used a particleboard sheet with some oak scraps screwed to it for the bending jig. However, I have seen some better solutions using angle brackets which help facilitate the glueup. You won't get much bend out of a 5/8" thich board though. I had quite a bit of springback force using 1/4" planks. You might consider ripping them on a table saw, planing them, and then rough sanding them for the epoxy. Leave some extra meat on the edges so you can plane/sand them smooth. You might thinkabout using Western red or atlantic white cedar for the central laminations to lighten up the glueup without any loss of strength.

    Ignore the Tamanu under construction and look at the laminated iakos on the left side of the picture.

    As for springback, there's not much to worry about--if you go with thinner laminations than 5/8".

    Dan

  10. #45
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    OK here's the dimensions of my largish ama, built in two 8' bolt together sections:



    Forgive my crummy rushed job on microsoft paint :-)... If I had half a brain, I would have spaced one of the stations exactly 4 ft from the end/bolt together part, so it would be all set up to reinforce the ama connection, but haha I must have been too excited building something from scratch to really think it out...

    As far as slapping, that was def a concern I had wade, especially after reading some old posts by you. It is a pretty heavy ama, my hope is that it will remain in the water most of the time, sort of like a catamaran/outrigger hybrid. Of course, my outrigger sailing experience is ZILCH, so I could def be wrong... and that could def effect speed/steering/balance also I imagine, but relaxing on the tramp sipping brews with a buddy or two was the idea you know, and if performance suffers a bit, I'm cool with that :-)

    My concern with doing the V outrigger was that I wouldn't get enough flotation in them without building them way up, and that the deeper they were submerged (while hanging out on the tramp) the more wetted surface would be present and the more drag. This happens with the dory shape a bit too, but the increase in drag is much less dramatic, as less submersion is required to gain buoyancy. I have read that the V shape is the least efficient shape for a multihull, while inverted U is the most efficient, with rounded dory-type hulls somewhere in between. But like I said, there is theory.... then sea trials!

  11. #46
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Thanks for the ama idea. I put the amas on hold--Gary designed Amu Nui for me which looks like a ton of displacement. A tamanu with straight akas and some higher displacement amas seems like a fun ride. After looking at some of the Seaclipper 16 pictures online, those tri amas need some serious displacement forward. I do like very much how the ama looks like a mini version of the hull.

    Dan

  12. #47
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    SMARTINSEN
    We went to CLC in Annapolis on Saturday to see them at their open house. They had demonstrations of strip planking kayaks, varnishing, epoxy and fiberglass. They have a 31' proa that they are building in their shop
    Hmmm, when I met CLC's John Harris at the PT Wooden Boat show a couple of years ago, he had just been out on this . . . .
    Last edited by DGentry; 12-17-2010 at 07:46 PM.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    ...As far as slapping, that was def a concern I had wade, especially after reading some old posts by you. It is a pretty heavy ama, my hope is that it will remain in the water most of the time, sort of like a catamaran/outrigger hybrid. ...My concern with doing the V outrigger was that I wouldn't get enough flotation in them without building them way up, ...
    --- If you really intend to sail on the tramp and hold the ama down, then perhaps the slapping will be OK or nonexistent, and your bottoms *are* decently narrow. And I personally have low tolerance for slapping sounds :-) Still, I worry a little.

    A single outrigger is a good boat to experiment with reducing drag to squeeze a little extra performance. I'm not a very competitive person (except when someone is overtaking me :-) but I find it a nice pass-time (between leaning against my mizzen with feet up on the gunwale, talking to the cormorants) to sometimes try to reduce wetted surface on the ama (on the "proa track") by shifting weight and letting the ama's keel sort of skip along the water when conditions are right (I think I show a little of this in one of my 5-minute Youtube videos, the one titled something like "heading back."). It's worth half a knot sometimes and livens things up. And in such instances the ama will definitely slap.

    And there will be those times when brisker conditions are going to lift the ama out against your wishes. The forces and noises and sprays might then become an irritant. But if you added a little angle or rounded off foam and glass to the bottom, much of that goes away. The new 20 ft plywood Jim Brown Seaclipper (?) trimaran took slapping seriously enough to angle the flat bottoms just enough to reduce the noise and perhaps to bite the water a little better too (would that be the case for that boat, some reduced leeway?).

    The good news is that these are your amas, so if slapping ever becomes an issue, you have a doable off-season project to put some shape over the flat bottoms. --Wade

  14. #49
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    That's one of those Harry Proas, isn't it? I've heard good things, and the principal is similar to what I'm aiming for in my little Wa'apa... but really, at that point, on something that large and built for cruising, I think I might go with a catamaran, I'm just not sure how well the theory of proas/outriggers holds up when scaled up...

    Anyone here sailed on one though? You seen it sailing dave, or been on board?

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I've been looking at this little guy for the last couple years:



    I think It would be good for sailing around the lakes here, an I like some of the features for quick assembly and such.

    Flaquita

    Construction photos
    DirtSailor

    It isn't going to build itself so get busy!

  16. #51
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    That's one of those Harry Proas, isn't it? I've heard good things, and the principal is similar to what I'm aiming for in my little Wa'apa... but really, at that point, on something that large and built for cruising, I think I might go with a catamaran, I'm just not sure how well the theory of proas/outriggers holds up when scaled up...
    ---No, that is a classic Russ Brown proa I believe: offset center mainmast, comfy bench seating on akas, lee-pod, and (not visible) and jibs on each end, deployed at the "new bow" after a shunt.

    A harryproa would have the rig in the lee-hull and the windward hull (what would be the ama on a traditional proa) swollen to include all accomodations. This puts maximum weight to windward all the time, which is good for cruising. The harryproa would never have problems coming about, and the overall windage might well be less with accomodation in the deep ww hull and no clunky bridge-deck windage or bridge deck stuff that might intercept a wave from under or over. The lee hull would be just for carrying rig and cutting through water, the ww hull occasionally lifted a bit under press of sail thus some reduced drag (at times) ---- and so I am saying a harryproa vs. a catamaran might need a reasonably complex comparison-anaysis.

    Contact Rob Denney for his views of this -- he is a nice guy and knowledgeable -- or join the Yahoo Harryproa group. The Yahoo Proafile International group discusses harryproas sometimes but usually with a little warmth from a definite minority of the membership. --Wade

  17. #52
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtsailor View Post
    I've been looking at this little guy for the last couple years:



    I think It would be good for sailing around the lakes here, an I like some of the features for quick assembly and such.
    --- That is a good little boat, and you can believe his performance information on his website because I have duplicated it with my outrigger often (except for the 14 knots part, which I have hit only once and briefly) which has approximately same dimensions but is much heavier than Flaquita. (And his rudder geometry is less dragy than mine too, with his vertical transom). His overall beam is wider than mine (his ~8 feet and some inches beam, mine is a few inches under 7 feet to get through my garage), and perhaps his vaka is a few inches narrower. I do believe his ama has a better geometry too, with a little more volume in the ends than mine, though it is still a deep-V hull). Anyway, Flaquita gets my vote for a very useful design, could keep you going for years.

    What I do NOT like about that boat stems from my personal preference for having a deep foot well so that I can stand up in safely to stretch or and leap about in panic to avoid a capsize, or sit down comfortably as on a kitchen chair when ama is to lee -- a few hours on a small rocking, pitching proa, and you begin to appreciate that even if your hips and knees are better than mine. As a trade-off, his vaka cockpit is self-draining through the centerboard slot (yes, you must watch that board in shallows: I would never give up my leeboard for that reason). -- Wade

  18. #53
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Guys, I am going to make a set of gently curving akas to drop my two amas 5 inches -- what kind if springback, if any at all, should I expect? I will be epoxying four ~ 5/8 thick, 10 foot DF planks into an approximate 2.5 x 2.5" square section.--Wade
    Cut those 5/8" section in half! It's anyone's guess what the springback would be. If you use 1/4" stock your aka come off almost the exact shape of your form, especially with gentle curves. Put your boat and ama in the water, take some measures and build your form accordingly. No suprises.

    DF is going to be very heavy in those dimensions. You could probably take an inch out of the width and still be strong enough. DF is plenty stiff.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Yeah, making curved akas from readily avaliable wood is not looking good. I might be back to lowering the amas on an open frame or well-faired spacer blocks. --Wade

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Im gonna do a hollow box ama, to save money more than anything, but also to save weight. With my 14" tall ama next to my 19" tall hull, one question though... should the ama waterline be about even with the vaka waterline? Or a little higher, or lower? Should i measure the vaka waterline unloaded or loaded?

    Also, how much curve can i build into a box ama, if any?

  21. #56
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Yeah, making curved akas from readily avaliable wood is not looking good. I might be back to lowering the amas on an open frame or well-faired spacer blocks. --Wade
    I just posted some photos of the hollow crossbeams that I use for my Wa'apa. Your fir may be stiffer than the Kauri I used but you could have them planed down to 1/2". You've probably saved those long triangular and useless scraps of ply from hull building and they can be used for the side panels.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Photos of hollow beam construction: http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogspot.com/

  23. #58
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    hat's one of those Harry Proas, isn't it?
    No, I don't beleive it is. The Harry Proas are unique in that the accommodations are in the windward hull. That boat pictured looks a lot like a Russell Brown design, Jzerro, but I don't know for fact which boat it is.

    The CLC boat is a bigger development of the Mbuli.


  24. #59
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    The boat pictured is indeed Mbuli.

    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/125668...gton%20034.jpg



    This one was built in New Zealand.


    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/Squid

  25. #60
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Apologies for deletions , I could not get the links to work......

    Just Google ....Salamba Proa it`s a smaller version of Mbuli , at 18 ft.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dierking View Post
    Photos of hollow beam construction: http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogspot.com/
    Good description of beam construction Gary , thank you.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread






  28. #63
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Gary thanks for the link! Very helpful...

    If i may ask, is that gorrilla glue (or some polyurethane equivalent) you used on the beams? I noticed the foam out... polyurethane glues have gotten some bad reviews lately, for being carcinogenic but also forbeing significantly weaker than most other glues. Although the" glue wars" continue on many threads in this forum, i would be interested to hear your take!

  29. #64
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Gary thanks for the link! Very helpful...

    If i may ask, is that gorrilla glue (or some polyurethane equivalent) you used on the beams? I noticed the foam out... polyurethane glues have gotten some bad reviews lately, for being carcinogenic but also forbeing significantly weaker than most other glues. Although the" glue wars" continue on many threads in this forum, i would be interested to hear your take!
    It is polyurethane glue. So far I have had no failures, but have been sure to dampen the surfaces before applying it. The small bronze nails in the beams are also a backup. Epoxy is still the one I would trust the most.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    [QUOTE=peterchech;2811761]Im gonna do a hollow box ama, to save money more than anything, but also to save weight. With my 14" tall ama next to my 19" tall hull, one question though... should the ama waterline be about even with the vaka waterline? Or a little higher, or lower? Should i measure the vaka waterline unloaded or loaded?QUOTE]

    The question stands, but one more too... on p 129 of gary's book is an excellent idea for building a clamp-on leeboard for the ulua, which has inwhales, so that the leeboard can be moved back and forth to precisely the right location. Does anyone have any idea for doing this on the wa'apa, which has only external gunwhales? A similar clamping system maybe, but on the gunwhales? how would it be secured strongly?

  31. #66
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    OK, final decision: I am making curved hollow box-beam akas as Gary has shown on his outrigger blog, with a direct connection to the inflatable amas. I will pay some attention to fairing (with glassed-over Dow foam I think) the akas into the amas to reduce the drag. (On my one short test, the fore-akas did not interfere with the water at all -- where the amas have greatest displacement -- though the water was flat).

    On leeboards -- I have had the worst luck with the forces on my leeboard -- unless it is my imagination, they seem higher than on similarly sized outriggers. Maybe I am over-sheeting, thus producing greater than necessary leeway-forces on the rig, though the sail tell-tales on both sides did not say so, and speed has been good. In any event, my 4 foot leeboard (two feet under the hull) held by two 1-inch square aluminum rails 12 inches apart and 40 inches long, were permanently bent this summer on one brisk ride. Everybody else seems to live quite well with pretty small leeboard bearings that would have splintered to destruction on my boat with the levering forces, I assume. And I am even planning on a longer leeboard to better match my sail area (2 square feet of board in water for 90-110 square feet of rig is a little low). What have I done wrong? -- Wade

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    On leeboards -- I have had the worst luck with the forces on my leeboard -- unless it is my imagination, they seem higher than on similarly sized outriggers. Maybe I am over-sheeting, thus producing greater than necessary leeway-forces on the rig, though the sail tell-tales on both sides did not say so, and speed has been good. In any event, my 4 foot leeboard (two feet under the hull) held by two 1-inch square aluminum rails 12 inches apart and 40 inches long, were permanently bent this summer on one brisk ride. Everybody else seems to live quite well with pretty small leeboard bearings that would have splintered to destruction on my boat with the levering forces, I assume. And I am even planning on a longer leeboard to better match my sail area (2 square feet of board in water for 90-110 square feet of rig is a little low). What have I done wrong? -- Wade
    I would replace the square tube with a T6 grade unless that is what you already have. It is much stiffer and as strong as mild steel.
    Gary

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dierking View Post
    I would replace the square tube with a T6 grade unless that is what you already have. It is much stiffer and as strong as mild steel.
    Gary
    --- That's the marine-quality stuff, as for spars? I wonder if if I can find T6 square tubbing at Dwyer Mast? I'll go check right now. Thanks. -- Wade

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    ...With my 14" tall ama next to my 19" tall hull, one question though... should the ama waterline be about even with the vaka waterline? Or a little higher, or lower? Should i measure the vaka waterline unloaded or loaded? ...
    --- How will you typically use the boat? 50/50? Solo? Two crew? Weekending with a camping load? If, say, you were mostly going to day sail with just yourself, some water, safety gear, and a sandwhich, then the boat should float fairly level in a calm, fully rigged, and with you inside. If it is off a little, not a problem if it is mostly for sailing. If you were at least going 50/50 sailing paddling, the many hours of paddling you would see might make it better to have the hull float pretty level to remove one of the removable irritants. On the other hand, it is possible to make adjustable-height amas, if the effort seems worth it (sometimes adding spacer blocks under the akas can be a quick fix).

    I adjusted height by lashing the akas a little lower on my ama struts when the ama floated an inch and a half igher than planned -- just enough to make worth it re-doing the strut attachment point by the addition of eyebolts lower down and slightly altered lashing scheme. My boat is now pretty level, maybe just a tad off-kilter favoring a lower ama. I hardly notice it. When I brought crew one day, the extra weight favored the vaka side a little. Again, wasn't a big deal. Much of it is aesthetic -- will you be irritated if other people beside yourself see your outrigger as being a little off-kilter? --Wade

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Here it is: a thread for those building wooden outriggers and proas!

    Please post builds, questions, sailing pics, etc.
    Hi

    What an excellent idea for a thread. I built a proa ten years ago, and have been messing about with it since. This is a sort of history of the boat page, if you're interested in that:

    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/1...Kevin%27s-boat

    It's been through a number of rigs and rudders and amas and so on.

    I've sailed it on the Texas 200 twice. There's a longish writeup of the 2008 trip here:

    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/1...Texas-200-2008

    A few months ago I bought Skip Johnson's P52 proa. This is Skip sailing her at the Texas Proa Championships 2009:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zfEZDeEOpU

    I am in the process of re-rigging her with a crab claw:

    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/34010366/Swordfish

    I hope that I'll be able to sail all winter in somewhat more comfort than I can on my green boat. The green boat is very comfortable to sail, but not very dry when you're going fast in wind and waves. I tend to not sail when it's cold. But the new boat has a cockpit! What a concept. I can't wait to go sailing on a really cold day in a fleece and jeans with a thermos of coffee.



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