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Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #3676

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Sure, I get the part about using the drag of a hooked leach to effect some speed when sailing free with the wind on flat water.
    I don't. It only makes sense if the alternative is a fluttering leech, which with dacron sails and no decent means of leech control is what it would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Also, the quick easy box build is obviously just so with a box structure having only 90 deg chines ( at least this became evident to me at 12 years old when building my first boat alongside a friend who opted to go that route).
    No one was surprised about how easy it was to build. Almost everyone was surprised by how well it performed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Sheeting more on the vertical side definitely helps when sailing single handed in 30 + knots of wind and trying to point some. This is when it helps to outhaul the clew and the peak parts of the sail, along with adjusting tying points to the yard and boom ( in preference to simple lacing of sails to spars), followed by tensioning the leach line just enough to remove flutter in the leach.
    Sorry, sailing a crab claw canoe solo in 30+ knots is not going to happen. Apart from the righting moment and balance issues, the sail will flog itself to pieces. 2 of us were out in a 25-30 knot rainsquall. Sailing was possible, just, if the crew was very quick to balance the heeling, but the sail would not have lasted long. We dropped it in the tide and waited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Sailing with crew hiked out to w/ward and setting the sheet somewhat horizontally is maybe the better option when there is a helmsman sitting in the stern of the lee hull in order to handle a steering blade.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Argument for eschewing use of plywood and glue for cultural reasons is pretty puzzling when dacron is acceptable as sail cloth, although, it does make sense to hang onto the build system of sewn plank hull skins for cultural preservation.
    Dacron is not acceptable to the cultural people. They tolerate it, (and the use of plywood, synthetic rope and power tools) so the canoes can be sailed, but are aware that it is diluting the culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Seeing as the powered skiffs seem to have previously replaced the traditional canoes, the question is how long will it be before these plywood jobs are powered up?
    Not long. June, July, August there is no wind in the Marshalls. The boats will have outboard brackets fitted for electric motors, eventually charged by renewables. Until then, they will be sailing whenever there is wind. see 4.3.3 in https://mcst-rmiusp.org/images/Proje...onsCatalog.pdf.

  2. #3677
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    > how long will it be before these plywood jobs are powered up? > Not long. June, July, August there is no wind in the Marshalls. If the canoes are using battery-electric aux. propulsion, what about just charging each canoe individually using one or two solar panels that can be plugged in at the beach, or maybe folded up and stowed onboard? If a canoe is not used every day, then a day or two to charge batteries is acceptable. I do that now with my 6m modern proa in Canada. Then there's no dependency on the grid. Another pragmatic thought - even if gas outboards are used with the canoes, fuel savings will be major over skiffs. Glad to see your involvement in this worthwhile project Rob.

  3. #3678

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cpcanoesailor View Post
    > how long will it be before these plywood jobs are powered up? > Not long. June, July, August there is no wind in the Marshalls. If the canoes are using battery-electric aux. propulsion, what about just charging each canoe individually using one or two solar panels that can be plugged in at the beach, or maybe folded up and stowed onboard? If a canoe is not used every day, then a day or two to charge batteries is acceptable. I do that now with my 6m modern proa in Canada. Then there's no dependency on the grid. Another pragmatic thought - even if gas outboards are used with the canoes, fuel savings will be major over skiffs. Glad to see your involvement in this worthwhile project Rob.
    Thanks. It was/is a lot of fun.

    I was not involved in the solar/wind generation side of things. Your suggestion re individual charging would work well, but does not have the glories of scale that the paper writers are looking for. ;-)

  4. #3679
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    If anyone is interested in information on anything that deals with outriggers, catamarans and land sailers, I offer my friend and best man Don Rypinski who has spend a lifetime messing about with rigs and hulls for all kinds of interesting concepts for the above. Don Once sailed 1,800 miles across the Sahara Desert in a land sailer on a rally and is, in my opinion, the most knowlegable person for all manner of related craft on land or water. He is also the founder of the North American Land Sailing Assoc. The land sailer speed record is currently 126.1mph! Right now, one of his outrigger canoes is tied to my dock.
    Jay
    https://www.manta.com/c/mm00hg9/rypi...associates-inc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRFRQXPtXTs
    https://www.outsideonline.com/198817...ngs-title-race
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 04-01-2020 at 02:50 PM.

  5. #3680
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Sounds like a very interesting guy Jay. What sort of outrigger canoes is he doing? Are they for paddling? If he ever visits PT, I'd like to meet him.

  6. #3681
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Back in post #3676 some comments were made and a question asked, but my answer failed to appear, so this message is an attempt at making sense of the statement > Sorry, sailing a crab claw canoe solo is not going to happen.
    Well yes, for me it is not going to happen again, because it required an apparently corrupted set up and was on a daysailer craft, so having learned of potentially more versatile rigs, there is little point in spending more time and effort on that one trick pony.
    Going with the split rig configuration and being unhampered by any notion of 'corruption' possibly has something to offer - like this rendering of an idea that I have hd time to pen whin the time made available by this virus lock-down, which has stymied plans to move the Pahi and make ready for launching.
    It is a rig that follows the basic means of strut masts with shrouds and stays of te traditional Pahi, but imagines the use of modern materials rather than grown spars, which is realistically within my means.modern SO Pahi rig 2.jpg

  7. #3682
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Just before the virus lock-down, I had antifoul painted on both hulls of Pahi Iti, with the lee hull by the waterside as can be seen in this pic.Now there should be time to carve and add the cedarpieces to complete the head-rail structure.Pahi lee hull bow with sprit.jpg
    Last edited by Lugalong; 04-03-2020 at 09:19 PM.

  8. #3683
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    To make best use of further time during this virus lock-down, the limited covered workspace I have available allows for only a very small build, so it is a good time to build the NANOPAHI - a double canoe to serve as a tender to the 40fter when he is launched as soon as we can get back to normal life.

    NANOPAHI started out as a replacement for the SUP board, which was getting to be a problem paddling in chop against wind and tide in order to get up the channel to my swing mooring out in the harbour. Design is a 14 ft double canoe that transports on a trolley or bicycle trailer, for assembly at the waterside and can be used to either SUP paddle, to row or as a proa when sail powered.
    Thin Oukume ply and Paulownia strips should be good to keep the weight down, so here goes with the cutting of strakes.

  9. #3684

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Interesting, what width are you going for?

  10. #3685
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tdem View Post
    Interesting, what width are you going for?
    Based on calcs for displacenent I am OK with 450mm beam per hull, so with 2 lashed gunnel to gunnel the 0.9M overall is as much as I would like for SUP, but a little space between hulls would be good, so I am tempted to try and reduce hulls to 400mm.
    When joined with a thwart and kiato for rowing, it will be at least 1.5M, with 1.6 M being a recommended spacing between rollocks, a measurement that I have gleaned from a net search. Perhaps aexperienced rowers here could provide helpfull advice or data on this. Much development to do going forward, but should be an interesting experience for me as one who has only done Occasional rowing as a kid, but have managed OK in fun dinghy races in the BOI.
    Pic attached is 1:5 scale of a 14 ft'er.NANOPAHI.jpg

  11. #3686
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    If anyone is interested in information on anything that deals with outriggers, catamarans and land sailers, I offer my friend and best man Don Rypinski who has spend a lifetime messing about with rigs and hulls for all kinds of interesting concepts for the above. Don Once sailed 1,800 miles across the Sahara Desert in a land sailer on a rally and is, in my opinion, the most knowlegable person for all manner of related craft on land or water. He is also the founder of the North American Land Sailing Assoc. The land sailer speed record is currently 126.1mph! Right now, one of his outrigger canoes is tied to my dock.
    Jay
    https://www.manta.com/c/mm00hg9/rypi...associates-inc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRFRQXPtXTs
    https://www.outsideonline.com/198817...ngs-title-race
    Don, is in the business of designing boats that are of a comforable size to be car topped or trailered. But he also can design Juggernaughts and Behemouths. He also has been in Tahiti to open a rental business for day sailers there.
    Jay

  12. #3687
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Don, is in the business of designing boats that are of a comforable size to be car topped or trailered. But he also can design Juggernaughts and Behemouths. He also has been in Tahiti to open a rental business for day sailers there.
    Jay
    Had not heard of Don untill his mention in this thread, but guess he must have been with Larry Pardey in the Sahara desert venture.
    Shunters of minimal size are so rare that I wonder if he has much if any experience with them. Then. a shunter that can be rowed is probably the rarest of all.
    Tuamotu canoes ( Pahis of origin rather than Tahitian va'a) that were rowed had to lose their amas and thus in effect became monohulls instead of multi's, making the above concept feasible as a result of the small size. As well, this nano scale is allowing me to build in a workspace measuring 4x2 metres, since I am able to build 1/2 hulls at a time, from sections of stock plywood lengths. First 1/2 hull is taking shape and a pic might be possibe as soon as the deck goes on.

  13. #3688
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Actually Don was the one who got us all interested in the Sahara Desert race. The land yachts were supplied by the French who made them up as a one design using parts from, that I think were from Renault or Citroen compact cars. This race was started by an officer of the French Foreign Legion who was keen on land sailing near the out post he was in command of. I had to excuse myself from this adventure as I became a father during the course of the race. National Geographic had Larry Pardy on the cover and also published a great article on the race which became a rally as the car frames kept breaking and coming apart and there were constant delays because of the time repairs would take. They were using road tires that had a habit of digging in the soft sand from time to time.

    Don has a unique canoe that he designed that is a trimaran that looks like a water spider. I folds with both amas up agains the center hull and is great for the handicapt sailor as the boat is steered facing forward. He wants to use it as a resort rental boat as it is both fast and efficient while still being very safe for neofites to sail. I remember paddling one of
    Dons Canoes home in a dead calm, with a guy from the islands who's name was Villi Valah. He used Don's guitar for a paddle!

    Harri Maru! A eta pe-a pe-a! Tahiti nui e!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 04-10-2020 at 02:26 PM.

  14. #3689
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Actually Don was the one who got us all interested in the Sahara Desert race. The land yachts were supplied by the French who made them up as a one design using parts from, that I think were from Renault or Citroen compact cars. This race was started by an officer of the French Foreign Legion who was keen on land sailing near the out post he was in command of. I had to excuse myself from this adventure as I became a father during the course of the race. National Geographic had Larry Pardy on the cover and also published a great article on the race which became a rally as the car frames kept breaking and coming apart and there were constant delays because of the time repairs would take. They were using road tires that had a habit of digging in the soft sand from time to time.

    Don has a unique canoe that he designed that is a trimaran that looks like a water spider. I folds with both amas up agains the center hull and is great for the handicapt sailor as the boat is steered facing forward. He wants to use it as a resort rental boat as it is both fast and efficient while still being very safe for neofites to sail. I remember paddling one of
    Dons Canoes home in a dead calm, with a guy from the islands who's name was Villi Valah. He used Don's guitar for a paddle!

    Harri Maru! A eta pe-a pe-a! Tahiti nui e!
    Jay
    Ha ha, Tahitian falla using the guitar as a paddle is pretty funny.Sea Spider as a description for a light or minimal folding trimaran type craft is a good one too.My concern about that type of craft is that it is likely to show the same kind of fragility or unreliability as those Renault based platforms in the Sahara rally. Bumps in the desert might be as destructive as I know bumps on the Ocean to be. Coming from a surfing background it is always a concern about the nose diving and wave driven momentum flipping the craft over the buried bow, especially if it is a low volume ama. Reduction of the hull's configuration to 2 larger ones is a good start in getting buoyancy to loo'ard. Tahitians show that getting live ballast up to w/ward (using a balance beam on the opposite side to the ama) is the practical way to get by with a skinny ama.

  15. #3690
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Being in lock-down has has provided me with the opportunity or forced my hand to make the most of my small garage workspace and at the same time turn years of planning into something tangible.
    Over the last 25 years I have had to build or relocate and set up workshop facilities no less than 9 times.This last time saw me making do with space for a workbench on one side, piled with all tools and sundries jammed into the shelving under or on top of the counter. Everything else was stacked up against the wall on the opposite side, leaving a corridor for access and just enough space to locate the table saw on a trolley, which allowes for it to moved around when lifted by two handles (like a barrow).Timber lengths are hung from the rafters and the crowded mess has been mostly avoided by packing a tool box and working on Pahi-iti outside in the parking bay or down at the boat club compound.Now with this opportunity, a pile of rough sawn fence pailings stored under my wifes' little sun-deck, where used to tack some shelves together and make ready for the NANOPAHI prototype build.
    Here is the start, something I would have done well to build 25 years ago when starting out on the quest to have a personal workshop.
    Back then it was a case of making do with rented rooms, which could have been fine for a build of this nature even if it meant buying ready cut strips rather than doing my own sawing from 4x8 timber, although, the many years of research and know-how behind the design is the more important ingredient.
    Knowledge gained trough building and sailing other canoes and proas has been critical in coming to terms with requirements in making it happen, but starting out as small as this would certainly have easier and more pleasurable, besides being less costly.NANOPAHI prototypr 1.jpgNANOPAHI prototype build 2.jpgNANOPAHI prototypebuid 3.jpg

  16. #3691
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Ha ha, Tahitian falla using the guitar as a paddle is pretty funny.Sea Spider as a description for a light or minimal folding trimaran type craft is a good one too.My concern about that type of craft is that it is likely to show the same kind of fragility or unreliability as those Renault based platforms in the Sahara rally. Bumps in the desert might be as destructive as I know bumps on the Ocean to be. Coming from a surfing background it is always a concern about the nose diving and wave driven momentum flipping the craft over the buried bow, especially if it is a low volume ama. Reduction of the hull's configuration to 2 larger ones is a good start in getting buoyancy to loo'ard. Tahitians show that getting live ballast up to w/ward (using a balance beam on the opposite side to the ama) is the practical way to get by with a skinny ama.
    Recently I purchased plans for Chesapeake Light Craft's Outrigger Junior. Of course I'll be wanting to inflict the design with my birdwing masts and sails. My dream is to someday complete the Texas 200 with my rig and John Harris's hulls and akas. Spending a day and a half in my first attempt at the Texas 200 taught me most of what I need to know to succeed in my second attempt. What I learned was that it's best to travel light and do so in a boat that is very fast so that you spend 4 or five hours a day in the South Texas hell that goes for weather down there (30 knot winds and 100 F) instead of the 8 or 9 hours it takes in an overloaded 15' monohull.

    I too am an old surfer and know all about burying the nose of the surfboard and wiping out (what we called "pearling"). John Harris did a good job of adding extra buoyancy in the bows of his proa to avoid that stumbling head over heels and ending up in a world of trouble. My biggest problem with the Outrigger is that it is designed presently as a non-folding design where all pieces of the boat have to be lashed together at launching. At the Texas 200, there is simply no space at the launching for a solo sailor to spend an hour or so lashing together his boat. By designing a hinge in the akas (cross beams), it reduces the number of lashings from 16 to just 4. Furthermore, the hinges would be located near the main hull and the helm so that near instant lashings with heavy velcro straps would be possible for the akas and the final proper lashing could be done underway as there is a long canal ride long before you ever hit the open Gulf of Mexico.

    The other problem is trying to match sail area of the Outrigger Junior's huge lateen's 165 sq. ft. sail area. I have an existing birdwing main that sets about 100 sq. ft. and I hope to add another 50 sq. ft. or so in a genoa. My genoa is a kit left over from Xena (a birdwing Caledonia Yawl) and is about 5 years old but never exposed to sunlight so should be alright to use (although I still have to sew the thing). Also have plans to fit the ama with an existing very small birdwing rig designed for my bicycle. The reason for the mast on the ama is to add a little more sail (12 sq. ft.) but more importantly, it would give me a third vertical support for a flat three-sided sunshade over the helm. The experienced sailors of the Texas 200 all seem to cover up all exposed skin to prevent sunstroke. Unfortunately I found that covering all my pale white skin with clothing lead me straight to heatstroke with no stopping in between for sunstroke. A small flat sunshade over my head at the helm would give me a much better chance of surviving the event. If I didn't have to wear a hat, I would be a much cooler helmsman.

    Yet another problem with my plan to complete the Texas 200 is figuring out how to set my genoa. It could be done with a bowsprit on the main hull (vaka) but the hulls of the outrigger are so well shaped that I couldn't bring myself to mess with perfection by adding a bowsprit (I'm a slow learner but I do learn). So I plan to create a composite/bamboo pole that I could strap to the port side of main hull and long enough to be secured by the same final lashing together of the akas.

    So I'm stuck here at the house with my cat doing some proa dreaming just what the doctor ordered!

  17. #3692
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Recently I purchased plans for Chesapeake Light Craft's Outrigger Junior. Of course I'll be wanting to inflict the design with my birdwing masts and sails. My dream is to someday complete the Texas 200 with my rig and John Harris's hulls and akas. Spending a day and a half in my first attempt at the Texas 200 taught me most of what I need to know to succeed in my second attempt. What I learned was that it's best to travel light and do so in a boat that is very fast so that you spend 4 or five hours a day in the South Texas hell that goes for weather down there (30 knot winds and 100 F) instead of the 8 or 9 hours it takes in an overloaded 15' monohull.


    I too am an old surfer and know all about burying the nose of the surfboard and wiping out (what we called "pearling"). John Harris did a good job of adding extra buoyancy in the bows of his proa to avoid that stumbling head over heels and ending up in a world of trouble. My biggest problem with the Outrigger is that it is designed presently as a non-folding design where all pieces of the boat have to be lashed together at launching. At the Texas 200, there is simply no space at the launching for a solo sailor to spend an hour or so lashing together his boat. By designing a hinge in the akas (cross beams), it reduces the number of lashings from 16 to just 4. Furthermore, the hinges would be located near the main hull and the helm so that near instant lashings with heavy velcro straps would be possible for the akas and the final proper lashing could be done underway as there is a long canal ride long before you ever hit the open Gulf of Mexico.

    The other problem is trying to match sail area of the Outrigger Junior's huge lateen's 165 sq. ft. sail area. I have an existing birdwing main that sets about 100 sq. ft. and I hope to add another 50 sq. ft. or so in a genoa. My genoa is a kit left over from Xena (a birdwing Caledonia Yawl) and is about 5 years old but never exposed to sunlight so should be alright to use (although I still have to sew the thing). Also have plans to fit the ama with an existing very small birdwing rig designed for my bicycle. The reason for the mast on the ama is to add a little more sail (12 sq. ft.) but more importantly, it would give me a third vertical support for a flat three-sided sunshade over the helm. The experienced sailors of the Texas 200 all seem to cover up all exposed skin to prevent sunstroke. Unfortunately I found that covering all my pale white skin with clothing lead me straight to heatstroke with no stopping in between for sunstroke. A small flat sunshade over my head at the helm would give me a much better chance of surviving the event. If I didn't have to wear a hat, I would be a much cooler helmsman.

    Yet another problem with my plan to complete the Texas 200 is figuring out how to set my genoa. It could be done with a bowsprit on the main hull (vaka) but the hulls of the outrigger are so well shaped that I couldn't bring myself to mess with perfection by adding a bowsprit (I'm a slow learner but I do learn). So I plan to create a composite/bamboo pole that I could strap to the port side of main hull and long enough to be secured by the same final lashing together of the akas.

    So I'm stuck here at the house with my cat doing some proa dreaming – just what the doctor ordered!
    So you are still going with the birdwing ... I have wondered about you kenjamin.

    What I like about the CLC outrigger is that it follows the time proven practice of creating a strong light and resilient structure in it's use of wooden kiato and lashings.
    Sure, there is the possibility to make akas and folding connecters, that sort of thing. Gary Dierking has done something like that (I seem to remember) - take a look at what he did with a folding Vaka ( possibly named Te Manu).
    Avoiding the sun conflicts with hiking out for purpose of stability, so you are going to need a rig that reefs as near instantly as a Junk sail, if you want to stay put under a canopy, whilst helming and handling control lines. Not that I am recommending a Junk rig rather than utilising a wide base multihull platform to to stay the rig. Unstayed rigs tend to be heavier than the outrigger kind, or get much more expensive if attempt is made to go light. Roller reefing around the mast has been used on certain production double outrigger/ trimaran type craft. Good luck with your chosen solution, whatever it may be.

  18. #3693
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    So you are still going with the birdwing ... I have wondered about you kenjamin.

    What I like about the CLC outrigger is that it follows the time proven practice of creating a strong light and resilient structure in it's use of wooden kiato and lashings.
    Sure, there is the possibility to make akas and folding connecters, that sort of thing. Gary Dierking has done something like that (I seem to remember) - take a look at what he did with a folding Vaka ( possibly named Te Manu).
    Avoiding the sun conflicts with hiking out for purpose of stability, so you are going to need a rig that reefs as near instantly as a Junk sail, if you want to stay put under a canopy, whilst helming and handling control lines. Not that I am recommending a Junk rig rather than utilising a wide base multihull platform to to stay the rig. Unstayed rigs tend to be heavier than the outrigger kind, or get much more expensive if attempt is made to go light. Roller reefing around the mast has been used on certain production double outrigger/ trimaran type craft. Good luck with your chosen solution, whatever it may be.
    Yep, I'm still doing the birdwing thing. I had to put my Yangtze Pelican plans on hold (due to the projected expenses involved in building a small ship) so I built CLC's 18' 10" Southwester Dory in 2018 instead. It has taken forever for me to sort out the rig for my dory. Tried to use a track system of pex pipe but it failed to contain my sail slugs when reefing so abandoned that idea and went back to hoops of polyethylene and then finally PVC hoops to attach my birdwing sail on my birdwing mast. I love my new dory. She's a very sweet sail and oar boat so I'll be hanging on to her. She's in the garage and my sports car (MX-5 Miata) has to live outside under a tarp.

    Lately, however, I've been feeling "THE NEED FOR SPEED!" Yes it's a tall order to expect to stay in the shade while going very fast on a 15' proa, but it's an interesting problem to solve. Even if I could only be in the shade 1/2 or 2/3 of the time, that would help me a lot in surviving the Texas 200. And heck, I don't know if I'll ever make it back to South Texas for the event but it's definitely on my bucket list. For me it's the boat building that I really enjoy. Creating a unique vehicle to sail is always an adventure for me. With the CLC Outrigger it's almost more like building a flying machine than a boat. I'm very curious to see how my curvy masts will propel the boat. Don't know how much hull flying I'll do but you never know. It will be a fun toy to build and play with here in Saint Augustine. We have plenty of places to unleash a multi-hull.

    Good to hear from you and I hope you're doing well.

  19. #3694
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Good to hear you still making saw dust Ken. Hope all well over there in sunny Florida.

  20. #3695
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Good to hear you still making saw dust Ken. Hope all well over there in sunny Florida.
    Yep, I'm here proa dreaming – pouring over my Outrigger Junior plans. It's a welcome relief from reality and reality tv.

    Tell me I'm crazy but I'm thinking of tearing out an old incredibly small 1926 closet in order to build my birdwing proa inside my house. That would mean air-conditioned and mosquito free work space. Temperature control would mean kick off times for glue will be more predictable. Also no sweat drops in the epoxy. And no, the wall I want gone is not load bearing. Thank you HGTV.

    Very good to hear from you too, Ian

  21. #3696
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Yep, I'm here proa dreaming – pouring over my Outrigger Junior plans. It's a welcome relief from reality and reality tv.

    Tell me I'm crazy but I'm thinking of tearing out an old incredibly small 1926 closet in order to build my birdwing proa inside my house. That would mean air-conditioned and mosquito free work space. Temperature control would mean kick off times for glue will be more predictable. Also no sweat drops in the epoxy. And no, the wall I want gone is not load bearing. Thank you HGTV.

    Very good to hear from you too, Ian
    Of course you should tear out that wall. I'll bet you'll wonder why you didn't make that move years ago! And that's a great project. Do you expect to be able to carry on the roof of your car?
    -Dave

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    On the subject of scale suitable for building inside and then transport options..... sure puts a proa in a favourable spot. Pic attached here is to illustrate the point, where I got it the wrong way round by building the smaller one last. Should really have built the little one inside of even a rented residence and transported it on a bicycle towed trailer when I was young, skint and carefree. This Nanopahi is of course the extreme end of things, with hulls each being broken down into halves, so that the pieces can be carried in and out of a very small dwelling.Getting them assembled and loaded on my paddleboard trailer is going to be an interesting thing to tackle when the three other hull pieces and the connect beams are done.Pahi scale step down contrast.jpg

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Of course you should tear out that wall. I'll bet you'll wonder why you didn't make that move years ago! And that's a great project. Do you expect to be able to carry on the roof of your car?
    Harbor Freight has a full length truck rack rated for 800 lbs. and only $280. I thought about going that route but for $70 I can buy a manual chain hoist that could easily lift my dory off her trailer and I could use that trailer. I'm looking at designing a folding hinge for my proa so that I could trailer the boat back to South Texas for another shot at the Texas 200. At the boat ramps near the hotels and start of the Texas 200, there is no space for assembling a multihull. And even then I would have to go begging for help to get the boat to the water. With hinged akas, I could unfold the ama, temporarily velcro the hinges solid and then lash them properly on the canal ride on the way to the open Gulf of Mexico. That's my plan anyways. What I learned in my first attempt of the T200 was that I wished I had a faster boat as the multihull guys were spending half the time on the water each day than the small homebuilt monohulls. With conditions like 30 knot winds and 100 F temperatures, the less time on the water the better! This is especially true for us fair skinned sailors. In my first attempt I tried to cover up all my pale skin like the pros do but then I struggled with heat stroke which is every bit as bad as sunstroke. So I've decided that I needed a faster boat and one stable enough to set a small sunshade over my head so I won't have to where a hat, keeping me much cooler than I would be otherwise. I see the Outrigger Junior as a boat that has the speed I'm looking for as well as the stability for setting a small, triangular, flat patch of sunshade. So that's my thinking. Woxbox, you're a multihull guy. What do you think of my plan?

  24. #3699
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Lugalong, that is one cool looking boat! Nice paint job too! You should be a very proud papa. Who's design is that?

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Lugalong, that is one cool looking boat! Nice paint job too! You should be a very proud papa. Who's design is that?
    Ken , it's not easy to give a simple answer to that question, so bear with me and I'll try give it as short as possible - rather than a bonafide design, this is rather, a work of sculptural expression based on nearly a lifetimes study of Pacific double canoes and proas. The type that has really fascinated me is the Tuamotuan Pahi (SO Pahi), which inspired my work, especially in the way the way the builders crafted them on a beach from scarce timber resources, using tools made from clam shell and fastening with string they made from coconut husk fibre.
    Coming to the paint job - in my lifetimes search for knowledge and info on seafaring, I sailed an old Teak workboat conversion that was oiled rather than painted, which I like most of all in visual effect.Then when shipwrecked on the Algarve coast of Portugal, I came across the fishing boats that were painted in white and the primary colours, including orange, green and with black banding. This use of colour stuck with me and found it's way out when building the canoe in the above pic.
    Being such an out of the ordinary type craft, it figured that there is not much in the way of convention to be followed and freedom of choice was the result. Practicality came into it as well, as it was with the Algarve fishing boats, in that multiple brushing of fresh paint means that a patchwork job fits better within a work schedule, rather than working from end to end seasonally.
    I still prefer natural wood grain, as in pc included in this post, but keeping the weight down requires using strips,veneers and plywood, so painting can't be avoided, that's another reason why I consider what I am doing as art rather than straight-up boatbuilding. Canoes are another way to dodge around convention too.Final shape Nanopahi.jpg

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Harbor Freight has a full length truck rack rated for 800 lbs. and only $280. I thought about going that route but for $70 I can buy a manual chain hoist that could easily lift my dory off her trailer and I could use that trailer. I'm looking at designing a folding hinge for my proa so that I could trailer the boat back to South Texas for another shot at the Texas 200. At the boat ramps near the hotels and start of the Texas 200, there is no space for assembling a multihull. And even then I would have to go begging for help to get the boat to the water. With hinged akas, I could unfold the ama, temporarily velcro the hinges solid and then lash them properly on the canal ride on the way to the open Gulf of Mexico. That's my plan anyways. What I learned in my first attempt of the T200 was that I wished I had a faster boat as the multihull guys were spending half the time on the water each day than the small homebuilt monohulls. With conditions like 30 knot winds and 100 F temperatures, the less time on the water the better! This is especially true for us fair skinned sailors. In my first attempt I tried to cover up all my pale skin like the pros do but then I struggled with heat stroke which is every bit as bad as sunstroke. So I've decided that I needed a faster boat and one stable enough to set a small sunshade over my head so I won't have to where a hat, keeping me much cooler than I would be otherwise. I see the Outrigger Junior as a boat that has the speed I'm looking for as well as the stability for setting a small, triangular, flat patch of sunshade. So that's my thinking. Woxbox, you're a multihull guy. What do you think of my plan?
    Ken - I think it's all a question of being able to get the shade you need without running afoul of the boom and sheet. I don't see a windage issue if the size of the cover is kept to a reasonable size. You may well find you'll need to make a sail with a higher than usual clew to get the needed clearance. I would be inclined to angle the cover up toward the centerline, so that as the boat heels on port tack, the wind drag decreases rather than increases. On starboard tack, you have tons of reserve stability.

    Somewhere I saw a bimini type cover that was a single piece of tubing, bent round to create a U shape, and then the two ends dropped straight down. Such a unit wouldn't fold down readily, but the advantage is it's clear on three sides and doesn't require any straps. I trust you'll start a thread when the project gets underway?

    -Dave

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    The problem of starting a thread is I end up spending much of my time talking about my build than actually building the boat. I like what you said about angling the center part to decrease the amount of drag when heeling. I hadn't thought of that. I see these triangular shaped canvas sunshades at restaurants and shops that seem to do well in high winds. Somehow they seem to flap around less than a square tarp does. Of course they tend to be a heavier material than what you would find in a plastic tarp. But the perimeter shape might have something to do with it as well.
    I actually have two of those excellent Protech Mantis Sunshades that are fully adjustable, spread open nicely and provide a good individual amount of shade but they are not rated for winds over 15 mph so not exactly tough enough for the Texas 200.

    I've started using a backstay on my birdwing masts. Not only does it provide for tighter luff tension on a headsail, on a birdwing mass, it can also act as a mast rotation limiter. It could be that I could somehow use the backstays to set a small triangular shade over the helm. I've been thinking about using a very small birdwing mast (9') on the ama. If it had a backstay, and the main mast on the vaka had a backstay, that would give two skyward bound lines that might also function as sunshade supports. I don't think the very small triangular patch of sunshade that I have in mind would mess up the backstay tension too much but of course that is something I would need to find out. I guess I would have to wait around for some 100, 30 knot wind to actually find out whether or not it would work in the Texas 200. It's kind of a fun problem to solve for someone who likes to experiment.

  28. #3703
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Ken , it's not easy to give a simple answer to that question, so bear with me and I'll try give it as short as possible - rather than a bonafide design, this is rather, a work of sculptural expression based on nearly a lifetimes study of Pacific double canoes and proas. The type that has really fascinated me is the Tuamotuan Pahi (SO Pahi), which inspired my work, especially in the way the way the builders crafted them on a beach from scarce timber resources, using tools made from clam shell and fastening with string they made from coconut husk fibre.
    Coming to the paint job - in my lifetimes search for knowledge and info on seafaring, I sailed an old Teak workboat conversion that was oiled rather than painted, which I like most of all in visual effect.Then when shipwrecked on the Algarve coast of Portugal, I came across the fishing boats that were painted in white and the primary colours, including orange, green and with black banding. This use of colour stuck with me and found it's way out when building the canoe in the above pic.
    Being such an out of the ordinary type craft, it figured that there is not much in the way of convention to be followed and freedom of choice was the result. Practicality came into it as well, as it was with the Algarve fishing boats, in that multiple brushing of fresh paint means that a patchwork job fits better within a work schedule, rather than working from end to end seasonally.
    I still prefer natural wood grain, as in pc included in this post, but keeping the weight down requires using strips,veneers and plywood, so painting can't be avoided, that's another reason why I consider what I am doing as art rather than straight-up boatbuilding. Canoes are another way to dodge around convention too.Final shape Nanopahi.jpg
    Hey Lugalong, are you familiar with Phil Bolger's Thomaston Galley? It's just a little 15'6" boat designed for sailing and rowing but can also take a small outboard. If you have a copy of Bolger's book, Small Boats, it's on page 36. The shape of it's bow and the low foredeck with a significant combing reminds me of your boat, especially the smaller hull. It's great that you make room for art in your boat building. And I hear you when you talk about the freedom allowed by building a design of your own. I actually have two long skinny dory hulls (16') that I built and had planned to make a proa out of but they wait patiently in the rafters of my shop because when I saw the Outrigger Junior, it turned my head in that direction. John Harris also designed the Southwester dory that I recently built and it's a real head turner at the launch ramp. I get a lot of interest and admiration almost every time I put Roxanne in the water. When I saw the hulls of the CLC's Outrigger I knew that they were more appropriate and better performing for a proa than my slab-sided dory hulls. Plus I just really like the way the Outrigger's hulls look. There is no doubt in my mind that I'll enjoy my Outrigger Junior build and John Harris doesn't seem to mind me experimenting with the rig. I got a verbal agreement from him for my birdwing rigged Southwester and he seemed to like the finished boat when he saw it at a WoodenBoat Mystic Seaport Show a couple of years ago.

    As for freedom, a long time ago I had the freedom to create my birdwing mast design but these days I'm still searching for the best boat design on which to present my funky sickle shaped masts. It's impossible to see a unique mast design without considering the boat on which it is stepped. So I am bound to choose the best performing and best looking boat designs I can find. It's like Dirty Harry said, "A Man's Got to Know his Limitations". I know John Harris draws a better boat than I could ever dream of and I'm fine with that. His Outrigger Junior has got some beautiful curves on the hulls as well as the akas and I'm quite thrilled about adding some new curves to it with my curvy masts. Even though the patent will soon run out on my design of my birdwing mast, I still hold out hope that the design will be discovered and developed by someone or some company that could take the design to the next level with computer optimization of its aerodynamics and state of the art carbon fiber construction. Until then I'll keep building boats with sickle shaped masts and enjoy my hobby as best I can. At 70 years old with a good retirement coming in, it's not about getting rich or profit these days, it's just what I enjoy doing. You seem to enjoy the process of building as well and I applaud your free spirit to create something truly unique and beautiful. Good on ya!
    Last edited by kenjamin; 05-08-2020 at 10:41 PM.

  29. #3704
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Hey Lugalong, are you familiar with Phil Bolger's Thomaston Galley? It's just a little 15'6" boat designed for sailing and rowing but can also take a small outboard. If you have a copy of Bolger's book, Small Boats, it's on page 36. The shape of it's bow and the low foredeck with a significant combing reminds me of your boat, especially the smaller hull. It's great that you make room for art in your boat building. And I hear you when you talk about the freedom allowed by building a design of your own. I actually have two long skinny dory hulls (16') that I built and had planned to make a proa out of but they wait patiently in the rafters of my shop because when I saw the Outrigger Junior, it turned my head in that direction. John Harris also designed the Southwester dory that I recently built and it's a real head turner at the launch ramp. I get a lot of interest and admiration almost every time I put Roxanne in the water. When I saw the hulls of the CLC's Outrigger I knew that they were more appropriate and better performing for a proa than my slab-sided dory hulls. Plus I just really like the way the Outrigger's hulls look. There is no doubt in my mind that I'll enjoy my Outrigger Junior build and John Harris doesn't seem to mind me experimenting with the rig. I got a verbal agreement from him for my birdwing rigged Southwester and he seemed to like the finished boat when he saw it at a WoodenBoat Mystic Seaport Show a couple of years ago.

    As for freedom, a long time ago I had the freedom to create my birdwing mast design but these days I'm still searching for the best boat design on which to present my funky sickle shaped masts. It's impossible to see a unique mast design without considering the boat on which it is stepped. So I am bound to choose the best performing and best looking boat designs I can find. It's like Dirty Harry said, "A Man's Got to Know his Limitations". I know John Harris draws a better boat than I could ever dream of and I'm fine with that. His Outrigger Junior has got some beautiful curves on the hulls as well as the akas and I'm quite thrilled about adding some new curves to it with my curvy masts. Even though the patent will soon run out on my design of my birdwing mast, I still hold out hope that the design will be discovered and developed by someone or some company that could take the design to the next level with computer optimization of its aerodynamics and state of the art carbon fiber construction. Until then I'll keep building boats with sickle shaped masts and enjoy my hobby as best I can. At 70 years old with a good retirement coming in, it's not about getting rich or profit these days, it's just what I enjoy doing. You seem to enjoy the process of building as well and I applaud your free spirit to create something truly unique and beautiful. Good on ya!
    Hard to believe this happened - I had taken a gaood long while on a reply to this post, when the moment i pressed reply, the laptop shut down out of batery. Too late in the night to start over again, so will have a crack at it tomorrow.

  30. #3705
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Hey Lugalong, are you familiar with Phil Bolger's Thomaston Galley? It's just a little 15'6" boat designed for sailing and rowing but can also take a small outboard. If you have a copy of Bolger's book, Small Boats, it's on page 36. The shape of it's bow and the low foredeck with a significant combing reminds me of your boat, especially the smaller hull. It's great that you make room for art in your boat building. And I hear you when you talk about the freedom allowed by building a design of your own. I actually have two long skinny dory hulls (16') that I built and had planned to make a proa out of but they wait patiently in the rafters of my shop because when I saw the Outrigger Junior, it turned my head in that direction. John Harris also designed the Southwester dory that I recently built and it's a real head turner at the launch ramp. I get a lot of interest and admiration almost every time I put Roxanne in the water. When I saw the hulls of the CLC's Outrigger I knew that they were more appropriate and better performing for a proa than my slab-sided dory hulls. Plus I just really like the way the Outrigger's hulls look. There is no doubt in my mind that I'll enjoy my Outrigger Junior build and John Harris doesn't seem to mind me experimenting with the rig. I got a verbal agreement from him for my birdwing rigged Southwester and he seemed to like the finished boat when he saw it at a WoodenBoat Mystic Seaport Show a couple of years ago.

    As for freedom, a long time ago I had the freedom to create my birdwing mast design but these days I'm still searching for the best boat design on which to present my funky sickle shaped masts. It's impossible to see a unique mast design without considering the boat on which it is stepped. So I am bound to choose the best performing and best looking boat designs I can find. It's like Dirty Harry said, "A Man's Got to Know his Limitations". I know John Harris draws a better boat than I could ever dream of and I'm fine with that. His Outrigger Junior has got some beautiful curves on the hulls as well as the akas and I'm quite thrilled about adding some new curves to it with my curvy masts. Even though the patent will soon run out on my design of my birdwing mast, I still hold out hope that the design will be discovered and developed by someone or some company that could take the design to the next level with computer optimization of its aerodynamics and state of the art carbon fiber construction. Until then I'll keep building boats with sickle shaped masts and enjoy my hobby as best I can. At 70 years old with a good retirement coming in, it's not about getting rich or profit these days, it's just what I enjoy doing. You seem to enjoy the process of building as well and I applaud your free spirit to create something truly unique and beautiful. Good on ya!
    OK Ken, having threatened to answer this post here goes - Bolger's Thomaston Galley is not a design I can remember seeing and I have to admit that I don't know as much about Bolger or his designs as I should. Thanks anyway for bringing it up< I will keep an eye out for a look at it sometime, but right now a google search is not being helpful. Then the next thing is a thought or two on the CLC outrigger junior, which I must agree has elegant underwater lines, but still tends to the 'slab side thing' in the topsides. Battaeu like elegance is of course almost timeless in it's simplicity and echo's that of the flat bottom sharp section hulls that were found on the south coast of the Iberian peninsular, dating as far back possibility, as to Phoenician times.The elegance of some examples to be seen in the Lisbon museum is wonderful - specifically in the way the outwales/ gunnels curve and cross the extended stem, then loops back into the ornamental stem-head.These beach launched fishing boats are beautifully colored too.
    Getting to the point about your hope of sailing the Texas event in a tacking proa, well there is the followingthat I have to offer - perhaps you could make modifications to allow sailing from a prone position and have a system where a spray of water keeps you cool. Then there is only need for shading over your head, which could be a curtain-like cloth that slides back out of the way on wires and is not way up in the wind.In order to accomodate this sliding shade cloth s well as the mainsheet, a swept-up stern (like a Va'a motu) would help things.At the bow end a Va'a also has an elegant solution for a bowsprit.... I'll see if I can get around to sketch and post an already visualised image of the thing.
    Back to the body cooling thing - when I was a kid, people used to have water coolers that were in effect bags that were kept wet out in a breeze. Maybe clothing kept wet with spray has a similar effect. Perhaps a foot operated pump could keep the spray going?
    Choice of the CLC plans is fine in that it takes care of your free-standing rig, so I hope you find joy in the build and get it all working for that sailing run.

  31. #3706
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Hello Lugalong,
    On staying cool, I've actually researched "cool suits" that pump cold water from a cooler into a shirt with little hoses in it. The problem with that is ice is heavy and probably too heavy for the proa. At the Texas 200 that I attended, I had a Yeti cooler that can keep ice for three days, a ton of camping equipment, and all kinds of safety gear. My poor little Welsford "Saturday Night Special" was so overloaded that it couldn't perform properly. The boat still got up on a plane due to the high winds but I could have gotten on a plane much earlier and been much faster if I hadn't brought so much stuff. That was a lesson learned. I really do not know if I'll ever get back to the Texas 200 but if I do, I'll pack light and go fast. I doubt I will be doing a lot of hull flying in the Outrigger Junior but to tell you the truth, I can't wait to try it. Even without flying a hull the Outrigger will probably be faster than the 15' homebuilt monohulls – at least I hope. The bottom line for me is the joy of the build, the discovery period after the build when you get to know the boat and find out what it can do, and then probably what I enjoy most is showing off the boat at the boat shows. I've been to many WoodenBoat Mystic Seaport Shows and I always have a good time there. It gives me a chance to talk with folks about my birdwing masts and such a blast to see all the other boats at the show. You end up spending three days with a lot of kindred spirits talking about boats. I've also discovered a smaller boat show that takes place in Georgetown South Carolina usually taking place in October. It's not near as huge as the WoodenBoat Shows but still a really fun time and the cafes and restaurants there are excellent. Of course all of them there boat shows will have to wait until we get out of this mess we're in. I can think of a whole lot better ways to die than alone in some hospital bed. Hope you stay safe and hang in there! Best regards, Ken

  32. #3707
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    kenjamin, have you considered using ratchet straps for lashings? They do rust eventually, but if you remove the hooks and just fashion a loop from the webbing (both ends through the slot in the winder drum), they clamp really tight, really fast, yet they behave like lashings. Enjoy the Texas 200! I enjoy reading the stories. Too hot for me.

  33. #3708
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cpcanoesailor View Post
    kenjamin, have you considered using ratchet straps for lashings? They do rust eventually, but if you remove the hooks and just fashion a loop from the webbing (both ends through the slot in the winder drum), they clamp really tight, really fast, yet they behave like lashings. Enjoy the Texas 200! I enjoy reading the stories. Too hot for me.
    It appears that the white Outrigger Junior, in the gallery of pictures of the Outrigger at Chesapeake Light Craft's web site, is utilizing straps.

    Yeah, the heat is the real problem with the Texas 200 and of course the high winds. The combination of the two is kind of like trying to survive inside the nozzle of a hair dryer. And yet, it's the hardships that everyone experiences are what sort of binds everyone together. On my first night in the event I overshot the first campsite. I was solo in my boat and it was getting dark so I eventually pulled into a deserted beach and made camp. On the beach that night I was a little nervous about being unexpectedly alone and on "who knows what" property but it was an incredibly beautiful sunset, I had a great ham tomato lettuce sandwich for supper and then slept like a rock. The funny thing was I never felt so alive. When I woke the next morning I wanted to keep going but I had a bad neck ache, severe sunburn, and a heavily over-loaded boat that was struggling to perform. Still, even though I abandoned the event later that day, I learned a lot and feel like I could do better job of it next time. It's on my bucket list to go back. I want to go back and succeed, but I think I would prefer to go with a crew person or at least in company with a friend in another boat (as fast as mine). The idea of returning to the T200 packing light and with a faster boat means that I would spend much less time in the sun on the water. So that's why I bought my Outrigger Junior plans. Also there are many good places to enjoy the proa here in St. Augustine so even if I do not return to conquer the T200, I think I will enjoy the boat just fine here in my home waters.
    I FEEL THE NEED FOR SPEED!!!
    Last edited by kenjamin; 05-12-2020 at 01:57 PM.

  34. #3709
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Lockdown has mucked me about some, but pressure to move the Pahi ama hull away from home has helped toward some proress with the bigger canoe. Here is the ama loaded onto the half ton garden trailer, on arrival at the Whangarei Cruising Club, for meeting with the longer lee hull and joining with kiato/beams as shown in the SO Pahi thread.Pahi Iti ama on garden trailer.jpg

  35. #3710
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    If anyone wants plans for the legendary Malibu outrigger can PM me

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