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Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #3536
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    A little help? Link?

    Peace,
    Interested, But Drawing Blanks...

    ETA, Nevermind. Found it. Pretty cool. Thanks.
    http://www.spc.int/DigitalLibrary/Do...lans/KIR-7.pdf
    In case anyone needs it.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  2. #3537
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    This is good... hull section is along the lines of the 16 ft prototype that I started out with when developing a number of canoes leading up to the 40 footer being built now (SO Pahi build thread) on this forum.
    Tortured ply could have/would have been a good way to start, rather than working through the compoaites technology and finishing off with timber from the wale strakes upwards.

  3. #3538
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Pirate View Post
    That is a very unique paddle. I think your theory about it being used as a weapon would make sense due to its shape and dual-function ability to be used as both paddle/weapon. Even more so, it's user could switch between weapon/paddle mode on the fly. It would be interesting to find some historical record (written or oral) about paddles being used as weapons.

    I am sure the light pointy paddle weapon was much more popular than the basalt mace paddle.

    depending on where you went to school, both Taiwan and Japan are much more Pasifika than you realised.

  4. #3539
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    But this isn’t necessarily bad either, as generally once you get going the direction you need to go it just keeps going there with little or no input from the steering oar. Tacking was impossible, since the boat is so difficult to turn. However the steering oar was wonderful for this, and easily turns the boat in its own radius with a sweeping motion. Just be careful, because that thing has a mind of its own and if you don’t raise it out of the water after the sweep it will keep going and is very powerful! I can see it knocking someone out of the boat this way, easily.
    i'm pretty sure David Lewis mentions that the steering oar has a thug life rep among pasifika wayfarers xD

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Towards the end of our 1.5 hour or so sail, I stopped using the steering oar. It was just not that effective except as a sweep to tack with. Instead I used paddle steering. Steering with the paddle was extremely easy and effective. Once the ce/clr were balanced, just raising or lowering it in the water was enough to steer. It also made quicker turns possible. Generally I just didn’t have to steer at all though, it tracks so straight. An occasional dip of the paddle was all that was necessary for course correction.
    also pretty sure i read that in David Lewis, but before i knew what ce/clr meant, or that sailboats can steer like windsurfers.
    at the time dipping a paddle up and down sounded like outright sorcery. :O thanks for clearing that up for me

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Overall impressions? The boat could use a rudder for maneuverability if you want to go around the cans, but paddle steering is very easy and totally adequate for normal use and for just getting where you need to go since the boat generally self-steers. I think it could use some more sail area (it now has about 70-80 sq ft I don’t remember which), so I’m holding off building a new sail until further testing. I am hoping for better speed, but I’m sure downwind or in moderate winds this boat will be faster, and there is a lot of tweaking to come.
    they do have races on mini proas but usually just like windsprints across a school gym, not swerving around traffic cones on a motorbike.
    everything you said here makes it sound like your boat would be ideal for making the trip from tonga to japan.
    (owing, of course, to the noticeable lack of traffic cones to slalom along the way)

    unless you have a square-rig in your back pocket, i wouldn't hold your breath for better speed downwind.
    for-and-aft rigs depend on lift for propulsion, and i think sailing downwind with one stalls the airfoil nonstop.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Just paddling the boat is easy and kind of fun, even in gusty winds, so for short hops paddling may be the best means of propulsion (this is the conclusion the ancient Hawaiians came to). This is so far a very dry boat as well. Finally, the boom takes up much of the vaka cockpit, so a Hawaiian rig may be a good idea just for that reason alone. An actual tramp will be a huge benefit as well, though the hiking seats worked to get us on the water for now. Next time I will try to get pics and vid from another boat or from shore to really show what the boat looks like sailing.
    the hawai'ians, yes, but if you want to see guys that take their paddling seriously,
    how about paddling from southeast asia to new zealand in what was essentially a dragon boat on steroids. xD

    10771.01.KEY.jpg.540x405.compressed.jpg

  5. #3540
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    It smells like very dry clean dirt. It tastes like very bitter clean dirt. Only way to describe it.
    this is awesome! i've been calling chocolate soy milk drinking boxes 'dirtshakes' since my first trip to a 'health food store'

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by slidercat View Post
    I am, I swear!



    Naturally, I completely changed the design from the stuff I posted earlier,
    which is why I'm now just starting to cut the panel scarfs.
    this picture, though! :O
    has anyone tried making a boat from ply without gluing the plys to each other?

  7. #3542
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulC View Post
    BTW, to give you idea, the old 50s link for basic boat is here: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q&f=false

    Is there a way to just print that article from Popular Mechanics?
    proa_flyingama_popularmechanics.jpg
    i would love for the Pjoa guys to swing by and see this pic...
    nothing has less wetted surface to add drag than a flying ama

  8. #3543
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    Wink Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by petecress View Post
    • finesse: I keep reading about guys shoving the canoe back-and-forth, setting up a wave action in the water in it
      until said water slops out over the bow/stern. Haven't tried this one yet, but i suspect the size/depth/shape of the hull are critical.
    how_to_bail_water.jpg

  9. #3544
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Those outrigger platforms, and the benefits of having someone help you shunt,
    all speak of the social function of all but the smallest solo-outrigger.
    I remember a comment Jim Brown makes in I think the second volume of his
    "Among the Multihulls" memoirs -- he paddling out in a dugout with a native of one of the Polynesian islands.
    The native remarks that the lack of good building materials has forced the people to build smaller canoes
    (they are subsistence fisherfolk) that carry fewer people, and his complaint is that they can not well share their songs
    (by which I imagine that means stories as well) as they fished at night, with only one or two people aboard. --Wade
    songs, in this context might have hinted at voyaging songs too. the average islander cannot disentangle manhood from navigation skill.
    running out of trees driving the size of canoes down could have been a driving force of the loss of oral pasifikas wayfinding traditions...

    in western schools we think nothing of forcing young minds to learn things by rote with a minimum of visual or physical engagement.
    and while retreating past the light of the fire to a distance where songs wouldn't interrupt normal conversation is probably common,
    why pass up a great opportunity to have unobstructed view to the horizon in all directions, while pointing out the stars in the songs?
    the platform would probably encourage sitting in campfire-like circles and storytelling, with proximity helping to overcome ocean noise.

  10. #3545
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePont View Post
    Interesting read, thanks Wade. I am very intrigued by this:

    "Polynesian navigators studied the ripples formed by the wind on the surface of the sea.
    It is a technique which has often been reported by their descendants but the descriptions,
    usually accompanied by piano playing gestures, were not always fully understood".

    I was aware of Polynesian star navigation, and stick charts, but had never heard of this ripple-ology.
    Dave
    maybe stick charts and ripple-ology are different ways to convey the same thing?
    stick charts show the shape of what is happening, but don't convey movement.
    ...if you wanted to describe this to someone without just showing it to them
    would piano-playing describe the seemingly random reflections from interference patterns?

  11. #3546
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by flsail View Post
    I tried a hacked together windsurf rig on a stub mast - biggest issue there was having line that was too stretchy on the halyard from the stub.
    That rig didn't make it to the water. Rig 2 was a 36 sq ft sprit from an old dinghy. This was fun, only worked downwind. But it was my first sail on this boat,
    and it was fun to cruise downwind. Which should be obvious in the picture below as the entire sail is forward of my leeboard so CLR is way aft.
    sprit-rigged boats always make me giggle
    because they remind me of these:
    wbf_gaffsprit.jpg
    and all the possible origins stories for such a mythological hybrid.

    1. did the supervisor tell the hull team sprit-rigged, and the sail team gaff-rigged?
    2. did one of the teams look up the right term, and google image search sold them out?
    3. did the development team decide that sprit-rig was too difficult to animate setting sail,
    tell the sail team to switch to gaff, but forgot to tell the hull team?

    the best part is that since gaff-rigged sails hoist and furl wrong in the game anyway,
    (mizzens carry gaff instead of lateen sails because Caribbean circa Treasure Fleet)
    the sail modelling team only animated the sails and not the gaff head lacing
    so when the sails are furled, the gaff head lacing just hangs in the air above the sprit.

  12. #3547
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    Default Re: Waapu or Tamanu?

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- First, we sailed in light conditions, so I too have these questions. But the natives make them work,
    They may also use bamboo of greater diameter or a species that is lighter (bamboo species come in a variety of 'solidness').
    Second -- we were careful with crew weight placement. And third, the long akas (Carlos made a beautiful curved set)
    make good mechanical leverage use what little buoyancy there is in the amas, so that say 40 pounds of buoyant force
    becomes 280 foot-pounds at the hull rotation centre. More than this, I can't say! -- Wade
    this really got me thinking... so if you went out in a dugout monohull and caught a small turtle,
    and had to get it across the gunnels a few times on the way home because it kept tipping the boat...

    then went out next time with a fancy, new anti-tipping turtle float and caught a medium turtle,
    and you got it home in one go, but the anti-tipping turtle float kept coming out of the water...

    so then maybe you put the anti-tipping turtle float a little farther from the boat so it reacts slower,
    but then you realise that the amount of floatyness (and drag) is way more than required when it's so far away...

    so then you go find a skinnier, graceful breadfruit log and swap it out for the original fat anti-tipping turtle float,
    and in a few hunting trips, you are now bringing home 800lb sea turtles and riding on rails the whole way. :P

    (and probably just re-enacted a few hundred years of proa refinement like a Guy-Ritchie-movie montage)
    disclaimer: chain wales get full status in english as channels. gun wales will have their day! (and saxboards too!)

  13. #3548
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Or it was lunchtime and your mate came alongside in his dugout and you rafted up and that seamed more stable, when he laid his paddle over your dug out it got better. You wanted to free your hands so tie the paddle and it becomes more stable. Then you use the mast etc etc. Then you mate can’t make it so you use a log.


    This is a characteristic of design, simple things look obvious with hind sight but are far from it before the solution is developed.

    The ‘idea’ of negative numbers and zero are relatively modern concepts but obvious now.

  14. #3549
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    This is a characteristic of design, simple things look obvious with hind sight but are far from it before the solution is developed.
    The ‘idea’ of negative numbers and zero are relatively modern concepts but obvious now.
    i wish trig wasn't such a beast, i would love to calculate the multiplier on weight/buoyancy for every handspan of extra aka

  15. #3550
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Here is the thought I had going to sleep last night, how would sailboats be different if the density of water was say double, could you have a fluid with the same drag per unit area of skin but muc much denser.

  16. #3551
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Here is the thought I had going to sleep last night, how would sailboats be different if the density of water was say double, could you have a fluid with the same drag per unit area of skin but muc much denser.
    /
    You'd need a correspondingly lower viscosity, trichloroethylene? You'd need to be very careful as to which glues....

    Some things float astonishingly well in mercury.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  17. #3552
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I chanced upon this while on Youtube:



    Some lovely touches - wait for the end where he loads it on the car roof.....

  18. #3553
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    Default Re: Waapu or Tamanu?

    Quote Originally Posted by longpinkytoes View Post
    this really got me thinking... so if you went out in a dugout monohull and caught a small turtle,
    and had to get it across the gunnels a few times on the way home because it kept tipping the boat...

    then went out next time with a fancy, new anti-tipping turtle float and caught a medium turtle,
    and you got it home in one go, but the anti-tipping turtle float kept coming out of the water...

    so then maybe you put the anti-tipping turtle float a little farther from the boat so it reacts slower,
    but then you realise that the amount of floatyness (and drag) is way more than required when it's so far away...

    so then you go find a skinnier, graceful breadfruit log and swap it out for the original fat anti-tipping turtle float,
    and in a few hunting trips, you are now bringing home 800lb sea turtles and riding on rails the whole way. :P
    --- I think outrigger enthusiasts often work out in their minds how the evolution of the form could have gone. Have had many a good discussion on that with a multi-huller friend. I think your idea is pretty cool, why not, given regional cultural practices, why not regional solutions that converge to an evolution of one form that does a lot of good; other regional differences can then work on ama shapes, attachments, length-to-beam ratios, etc. -- Wade

  19. #3554
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    Default Sailing working proas

    Just a quick post to say Aloha and introduce everyone to Coconut, our first proa. She's designed for commercial fishing, with a 600-pound insulated fish hold and two "fishing cockpits", which are simply areas to stand and brace yourself while pulling in a line with a 150-lb yellowfin tuna on its other end.

    The 24 is designed as a lagoon taxi, fishing boat, small copra hauler, etc. Two people can paddle her at about 3 knots when the wind quits. She’s very similar to the 24-foot sailing fishing trimarans Tim built in the Marshall Islands in the 1980’s, except she’s relatively non-capsizeable when compared to the 24-foot trimarans, and probably faster under sail. These are VERY positive improvements for a small boat like this.
    She’s lashed together. Outboard-hung kick-up rudders lash onto the boat also; when they hit something in the down position, they break a short 1/8–inch parachute cord “fuse” and kick up, riding over the obstruction instead of ripping a piece off the boat. Tillers lash onto the rudders. Iako (plural of “crossarm” for you English-speaking folks), lash onto the ‘akea (main hull).

    There’s a daggerboard in the ama (outrigger) which helps with leeway, as does the the fact that she's got two rudders, and whichever's the forward one at the time can be bungeyed to one side or the other to correct for lee or weather helm.

    She’s 2,100 pounds at design waterline, that’s 1,000 pounds of boat, rig and gear, two 200-lb crew, 400 lbs of fish, 200 lbs of ice, and 100 lbs of fishing gear. She’s 22 inches wide at her waterline amidships on a 22-foot waterline, for a 10:1 waterline fineness ratio. That means she'll be fast under sail, and easy to paddle when the wind quits.

    Paddle? Yeah, in places where gas is $8/gallon, if they have any; they’ll be overjoyed with how easily she paddles!

    So I don't take up space on the discussion group's server, to see more full-size photos of Coconut, please go to our Coconut webpage (if that's allowed, couldn't find any references to "don't post links to your site" in the FAQ). You can find the whole story of Coconut's build to date there, also more information about the 37-foot sailing fishing proa we're building next.

    Here's a couple of photos. That's not a furry figurehead, it's PB (Purr Boy), shopcat:

    IMG_2563.jpgIMG_2565.jpgSusanneDeckHardware2.jpgIMG_2532.jpg

    With Warm Aloha from Hawaii, Tim, Susanne, and the rest of the Coconut crew: Victor (23), Jack (17), Lucky (16). amd Rose (13)
    Last edited by Kaimana; 01-28-2019 at 03:47 PM.

  20. #3555
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    Default Re: Waapu or Tamanu?

    If you've ever gone paddling in a real solid-wood dugout canoe (I have), then capsized the bugger (I have), then spent an exhausting what-seems-like-forever getting it bailed out, back upright, and then paddling your frozen butt cautiously back to your nice, dry beach, then I believe the idea of an outrigger, to keep it from doing that again would be obvious. JMHO
    Last edited by Kaimana; 01-28-2019 at 04:04 PM.

  21. #3556
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    That Coconut is s cool project. Please keep us informed.
    -Dave

  22. #3557
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    An interesting "lee pod" on the Coconut, if that is what it is. It seems to incorporate lee-side seating when that can be recommended, and, an anti-capsize flotation section (cp. Russ Brown proas) or does it double as a storage compartment? -- Wade

  23. #3558
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Looking good Tim. Looks like lee platforms are good for freight.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Gary Dierking; 01-29-2019 at 03:46 PM.

  24. #3559
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    I chanced upon this while on Youtube:



    Some lovely touches - wait for the end where he loads it on the car roof.....
    Talking of loading and carrying a small craft on car top..... this partly wooden SUP board is about as much hassle I care for at this stage of life.Although, when the SO Pahi (the Ama of which is to be seen in same pic) is finished and launched, a micro car topper version is a planned replacement for the board, and which will have sail as well as a ho'e (wooden paddle)SUP board and Pahi ama.jpgSUP board and Pahi ama.jpg

  25. #3560
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Aloha Wade

    My inspiration for this boat is Russell Brown, who is an awesome and humble man; the story of how I met Russell through his Dad Jim Brown, and decided to build a proa, is on this page on our site: "Why A Proa?".

    In short, the leeward pod on Coconut is all of those you mention: lee-side seating, live anti-capsize bouyancy pod, AND storage with a reasonably watertight hatch. I agonized about whether to put the hatch in or not, violating the integrity of what was an othewise completely-watertight compartment, then decided that the space was just too valuable to give up; for sleeping bags and clothing for overnight boat camping, etc. The hatch cost a bit, and is supposedly waterproof; we'll see, huh?

    Anything right with the boat is because Russell did such a good job with his proas, and I copied him. Anything wrong, and that's me; I tried a couple of new things, and we'll see how they work out.

    We're craning the main hull out of the shop tomorrow to make way to build the ama on the strongback (we just glued the glue strips onto the ama frames today), and will have more photos to post soon.

  26. #3561
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Aloha Gary

    Lee platform IS good for freight; but Coconut's 600-lb insulated fish hold is where we plan to put her "fishy freight'.

    I've never seen this photo before, and I thought I'd seen "everything proa" on the web; where did you find it? And do you know the island of origin of the proa, I mean what culture/people built it?

    It appears to have a trading schooner just behind the proa, and a (!!?) Man Of War in the further background? At least, it's a square-rigged on the uppers with gaff rig sails on the lowers, but can't see the foremost mast; and it appears to have gun ports?

    Thanks! Aloha, Tim

  27. #3562
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaimana View Post
    Aloha Gary

    Lee platform IS good for freight; but Coconut's 600-lb insulated fish hold is where we plan to put her "fishy freight'.

    I've never seen this photo before, and I thought I'd seen "everything proa" on the web; where did you find it? And do you know the island of origin of the proa, I mean what culture/people built it?

    It appears to have a trading schooner just behind the proa, and a (!!?) Man Of War in the further background? At least, it's a square-rigged on the uppers with gaff rig sails on the lowers, but can't see the foremost mast; and it appears to have gun ports?

    Thanks! Aloha, Tim
    The photo was taken by the Vanadis expedition to Jaluit in the Marshall Islands 1883, a place you are no doubt familiar with. I got the photo and some others from John Slattebo who got them from the Bishop Museum. The one below is also from Jaluit.

    Gary
    Jaluit.jpg

  28. #3563
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Great photos. Any more to share?
    -Dave

  29. #3564

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    With regards to what to call the "bows", I think for a while people were using port tack and starboard tack bow.

  30. #3565
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Prow (proa?) and Bow all fit with with the shunter configuration.
    So the logical solution fo myself at least, is to go with port and starboard bow as an identifier..... Ama to windward is of course the factor determining which is which. Otherwise the craft might as well be a trimaran or catamaran, if not a 'tacking proa'.
    Having said that, I might as well continue to confess that I have no longer any use for a low volume/sinker type ama.
    Using design and materials that allow for air filled hull volume - rather than a solid log - is the first step towards an ama that fudges the line between an outrigger ama and a double hull.
    Having a double canoe with unequal sized hulls, makes for the consequence that the smaller of them plays the part of the ama when shunted and kept to windward.

  31. #3566
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaimana View Post
    Aloha Wade

    My inspiration for this boat is Russell Brown, who is an awesome and humble man; the story of how I met Russell through his Dad Jim Brown, and decided to build a proa, is on this page on our site: "Why A Proa?".

    In short, the leeward pod on Coconut is all of those you mention: lee-side seating, live anti-capsize bouyancy pod, AND storage with a reasonably watertight hatch. I agonized about whether to put the hatch in or not, violating the integrity of what was an othewise completely-watertight compartment, then decided that the space was just too valuable to give up; for sleeping bags and clothing for overnight boat camping, etc. The hatch cost a bit, and is supposedly waterproof; we'll see, huh?

    Anything right with the boat is because Russell did such a good job with his proas, and I copied him. Anything wrong, and that's me; I tried a couple of new things, and we'll see how they work out.

    We're craning the main hull out of the shop tomorrow to make way to build the ama on the strongback (we just glued the glue strips onto the ama frames today), and will have more photos to post soon.
    --- Thanks, very interesting. Good luck with this fine boat! --Wade

  32. #3567
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Some lovely work here :

    I don`t know if this has been posted before , apologies if it has .

    http://www.pjoa.eu/#services










  33. #3568
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Even if it has been posted it has been refreshed since I last saw it

    the how to guide is great with some good graphics on steering

    http://www.pjoa.eu/download/Sailing%...e%205_3sEN.pdf

  34. #3569
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    The suspension on that Poja boat is super cool. I heard there were maybe some plywood building plans comming from the designer... any word?

    The tacking outrigger I built was based on the hull panels for the kir7 canoe. I posted pictures and maybe a video somewhere way up this thread.

    Trent

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