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Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #3501
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    North East England
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Yevsky View Post
    Im sure others will be along soon to discuss the fine points but the gist of the matter is:

    ama to leeward generally is faster because the craft doesn't heel as much, but the iakos and everything else needs to be carefully engineered for strength without weight, resulting a more difficult and expensive build

    ama to windward generally slower unless careful constant balance is maintained by the crew. The boat can be built much easier and much lighter. Pacific proas are considered to be the most boat for the buck

    Are you considering a proa or a tacking outrigger?
    For Small proas I would say the opposite is the case and for a 20 foot proa the ama to windward is the fastest.

    The crew is such a large percentage of the total weight and can be out towards the the ama, the ama can be flying (or practically almost) and there is only the vaka (main hull) in the water. In reality there are platforms to windward and leeward on most trackers and crew can generate same righting moment both tacks.

    Don’t go reinventing the wheel, look at Gary Dierking’s Boats and buy his book, unless you have visions of some carbon fibre speed machine
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/Tamanu.html

    there is also a great tacking proa website with links to lots of designs http://www.tackingoutrigger.com/index.html

    I do think a tacking proa would make a good raid boat, not sure the best way to row / paddle for long periods

  2. #3502
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    Sep 2015
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    Whangarei New Zealand
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    532

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CWeath View Post
    Question about amas. If one were contemplating sailing the Texas200, where the wind is predominately over the starboard stern, what would be the advantages/disadvantages of the ama being to windward or leeward? This would be on a boat less than 20 feet. Discuss. Thanks.
    IMO, too small or too short an Ama is not much good if there is any chop to contend with..... for smaller Size tacking craft, this pretty much ak's for a configuration close to a catamaran. But treacly depends a lot on the sail rig you have in mind.

  3. #3503
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Pennsylvania
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    8,108

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Ama to windward is the time-tested, proven and superior setup.
    -Dave

  4. #3504
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Coromandel, NZ
    Posts
    269

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I have hiking seats on both sides of my outriggers now. This enables you to un-weight the ama to leeward until it is just skimming the water. I now cannot detect any difference in speed between the tacks. Ama to leeward does allow for less concentration by the sailor whereas having it to windward requires your full attention. In regards to the Texas race where you will need to eat, drink and navigate over a long day, I would rather have the ama to leeward.
    Gary

    ort side,

  5. #3505
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    Sep 2015
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    Whangarei New Zealand
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    532

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post


    I'm pretty sure thats the boat we saw there last year. That video is from a few years ago and unfortunately he has since passed away . We met his brother, Alifretti.
    I thought I had put photos of it here , but perhaps there's more than one thread on the subject.
    anyway..







    The Pacific runs on panga / longboats with yamaha enduro motors and 2 stroke premix at the pumps on bigger islands. But on Fulaga they don't have many of those , day to day transport is a rotomoulded kayak, an old glass fizz boat paddled out for shellfish and octopus gathering, a yellow rotomoulded 16 ft or so boat that washed up over the reef , from Tonga or a bigger cruising boat( a gift from the sea), they have very little.
    That outrigger boat goes out fishing in the lagoon a bit, just paddled.

    Thanks for posting of these pics John B, the one of the mast up in the shed rafters shows the crucial addition of a halyard sheave, which clearly shows how rig technology effected rig development in the Pacific.

    Look carefully at the the way the yard is pushed up by the mast ( in the video clip of the canoe sailing), rather than being hoisted by a halyard.

    Capt Cook has failed to recognise the significance of this specific change that occurred when the Tongan canoe design changed from the tacking Tongiaki type to the shunting Kalia type,athough, any forked masthead allows use of a halyard.
    Whether it was in fact the Tongans who initiated the change, rather than the Fijians, is not something that Cook ever considered, and in any case the forked masthead truck is an ancient South Pacific feature rather than a Mironesian one, which points to origins of this vital feature in the Southwest (New Caledonia or Vanuatu/New Hebridies), instead of Micronesia.

    The Tongan Tongiaki tacking double canoe used the forked mast truck to push and prop the yard up ( similar to the way the video clip above shows).

    When a canoe is double ended and configured for shunting, then swivelling of the yard on a halyard is a simple thing. But when the canoe is not built to change ends ( as in the case of the Tongan Tongiaki), the forked truck supporting the yard, must surely have been an added complication to inhibit rig rotation into shunting configuration......without radical remodelling of the rig platform
    Cook thus chose to interpret this scenario as one that apparently 'proved' the invention of shunting, during his time in the Pacific (when the Tongiaki gave way to the Kalia and Ndrua shunters).
    Based on Cook's assumption, just about every so called expert on Pacific sailing canoes holds to this flawed theory, however,
    In truth, shunting is as old a concept, as is the canoe ( a double ended dugout, either an outrigger or double hull).
    Last edited by Lugalong; 08-27-2018 at 07:57 AM.

  6. #3506
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
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    Whangarei New Zealand
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    532

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Dierking View Post
    I have hiking seats on both sides of my outriggers now. This enables you to un-weight the ama to leeward until it is just skimming the water. I now cannot detect any difference in speed between the tacks. Ama to leeward does allow for less concentration by the sailor whereas having it to windward requires your full attention. In regards to the Texas race where you will need to eat, drink and navigate over a long day, I would rather have the ama to leeward.
    Gary



    ort side,
    Sure Gary....... might as well make that Ama slightly longer and more voluminous, to provide that bit more easing of demands( on concentration and ballast shifting) when under a press of sail.

  7. #3507
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    Sep 2015
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    Whangarei New Zealand
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    532

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    As the mass on the w/ward hull or the press of sail increases, so does the demand on buoyancy characteristics of the ama (when it is kept to lee).

    keeping the big hull to lee, provides more diagonal stability for carrying of either weight or sail.

    This is an old controversy....resolved by either hanging as much mass on the shroud and outrigger/ama structure to w/ward, as provides the required mass to power your chosen sail rig.
    Otherwise... use the w/ward ama to float more stuff ( like hulls connecting structure,providing deck space and means to carry a tender/ floatable toys, motors, cargo, and creature comfort things, like a cabin).

  8. #3508
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    Feb 2007
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    Waterbury, Connecticut
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I agree with Gary regarding the Texas 200: ama to lee (providing it is voluminous enough) is best. Those can be long exhausting days, for 5 days, and attention can indeed wander. -- Wade

  9. #3509
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Vancouver, Canada
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I'm putting my little proa LOL up for sale:
    https://vancouver.craigslist.ca/bnc/...686405443.html
    Pick up in person only.

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