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Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #3466
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Hey Wade... 6oz. Yeah, seats are gonna work well, but it was a bit of a bummer, since I made two sets of seats. One in red oak and one in pink foam. To be honest, not having to seal red oak perfectly (or else!) is a great reason for the change. But the weight savings are impressive. I think I overbuilt, by using 2 inch foam, but it made beveling the section next to the boat easier. Now just have to figure out the mounting.

    Anyone have an answer for mounting hardware on crossbeams? I've Douglas Fir 2x4s that were ripped to 1x4s to allow cold molding which were then laminated forming the top and bottom of the box beams with wood inserts staggered where important stuff happens (crossing over the beams, cuts where they fold) and also where the designer desired extra support. The faces fore and aft are 6mm plywood. The structure is epoxied inside and out, and there is a layer of FG cloth on the bottom. Where possible I am drilling oversize holes into the faces where there are inserts and making deep epoxy plugs for screws, but some cleats and such are best located between such places.

    My compromise solution, to prevent any splitting of the DF, is to mount a G10 plate on the beam, drill pilot holes with a small countersink and then thread a screw into the G10 and DF, with a slick of epoxy. I figure the G10 will stop any splitting of the wood face, and the countersink plus epoxy will create a watertight environment.

    Questions: better off tapping and using bolts? Do I need to worry about low oxygen SS corrosion?

  2. #3467
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by phil_mclean View Post
    ...Questions: better off tapping and using bolts? Do I need to worry about low oxygen SS corrosion?
    --- Would the bolts corrode seriously before you built your next boat? :-) Partly serious. I have wondered if you could pre-corrode your SS bolts when they are to be buried as mentioned. That is, I believe the SS forms an oxidized coating when exposed, which is what protects them -- could that coating get started by soaking the bolts somehow? Perhaps a goofy question, but still ....

    If the loads will not be titantic, would Bronze be better? How does Bronze suffer when encapsulated, I wonder?-- Wade

  3. #3468
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    At the rate my build is going? I'm not fast that's for sure.

    But regarding the crossbeams and a couple of holes. Do you think the G10plate will reinforce the screw holes enough so any flex doesn't result in splitting along the grain? It's for the mainsheet rotating cam cleat with a bullnose (5:1), a rope traveler (8:1) and vang (10:1) both smaller simple cam cleats. Purchases are powerful so hopefully loads are low. The G10 is 3/16, the crossbeams about 1.25" thick by say 3.5". I'm 95% convinced it'll be fine, I have bigger things than this to worry about.

  4. #3469
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    " better off tapping and using bolts?"

    Since the craft is supposed to be an "outrigger" there is the possibility to stick with outrigger technology and use use fibre binding (or lashing if you will) to attach components........possibly by mechanically fastening the various bits of gear onto backing pads and lashing these to the woken parts which you are worried about being split by fastening threads.

    Synthetic fibres can match the strength of metal fastenings and have hardly any more adverse effect on the wood fibres, than vegetable fibre type binding of traditional outrigger technology.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 09-18-2017 at 01:39 PM.

  5. #3470
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I agree wholeheartedly, Lug. I'm lashing crossbeams to the boat, the rudder brace to the boat, the outrigger pipes to the crossbeams. The bowsprit is secured by lashings in addition to mechanical locators. The bobstay is synthetic, the forestay and the shrouds are synthetic, I'm lashing low friction rings to the boom for the vang, and blocks are slung underneath the boom for the mainsheet by soft shackles. The traveller (IMO) is elegantly located and tensioned by lashings & soft shackles.

    But I've got to use some cleats. I've managed to locate these three to a convenient location next to where the tiller crosses the aft crossbeam, right in the center of the boat and reasonably ergonomic for the skipper. But there is limited height underneath the tiller as it sweeps across this location, and it's not quite enough for a pad lashed in place deep enough for bolting (again, those horrible items) the cleats securely. That was my first choice, and I actually cut wood as a mock up to see if it was a good solution.

    But at the same time I'm building an "outrigger" I'm also using dyneema, stainless steel fittings, rigging gear by Harken, Nautos, Ronstan and Ballinger. CF mast, modern sails, G10, epoxy, carbon powder, silica, fiberglass, insulation foam, marine plywood and a bunch of internet time. Nothing super traditional about the build.

    I guess I'll just go with it and stop hoping someone will endorse it for me. I was just wondering if this backyard engineering was reasonable or ultimately futile.

  6. #3471
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by phil_mclean View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly, Lug. I'm lashing crossbeams to the boat, the rudder brace to the boat, the outrigger pipes to the crossbeams. The bowsprit is secured by lashings in addition to mechanical locators. The bobstay is synthetic, the forestay and the shrouds are synthetic, I'm lashing low friction rings to the boom for the vang, and blocks are slung underneath the boom for the mainsheet by soft shackles. The traveller (IMO) is elegantly located and tensioned by lashings & soft shackles.

    But I've got to use some cleats. I've managed to locate these three to a convenient location next to where the tiller crosses the aft crossbeam, right in the center of the boat and reasonably ergonomic for the skipper. But there is limited height underneath the tiller as it sweeps across this location, and it's not quite enough for a pad lashed in place deep enough for bolting (again, those horrible items) the cleats securely. That was my first choice, and I actually cut wood as a mock up to see if it was a good solution.

    But at the same time I'm building an "outrigger" I'm also using dyneema, stainless steel fittings, rigging gear by Harken, Nautos, Ronstan and Ballinger. CF mast, modern sails, G10, epoxy, carbon powder, silica, fiberglass, insulation foam, marine plywood and a bunch of internet time. Nothing super traditional about the build.

    Well heck, phil.
    You sure have apparently tried all you can to use a soft fastening method wherever possible.
    Ma

    I guess I'll just go with it and stop hoping someone will endorse it for me. I was just wondering if this backyard engineering was reasonable or ultimately futile.
    Well heck! phil.
    You sure have tried to use soft fastenings wherever possible, so a compromise in a tight spot or two looks to be a worthwhile compromise.
    Backyard engineering using stainless steel plate could do for mounting the odd cleats.
    Fold the plate to lie over the edge of the cross beam and fasten with screws in shear.
    Countersunk 316 stainless screws with their heads exposed , should not pose any corrosion problem.

  7. #3472
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Hi,

    this Song is perfect for this Thread:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDJcSwRWAQI


  8. #3473
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Hey Lug, thanks! That's a good idea. I can epoxy a thickish G10 plate to the top of the beam and extending behind it, supported by a hardwood block epoxied to the back. The hardware can bolt to the G10 and I can avoid any holes in the beam!

    Appreciate the response�� Phil

  9. #3474
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by phil_mclean View Post
    ...But regarding the crossbeams and a couple of holes. Do you think the G10plate will reinforce the screw holes enough so any flex doesn't result in splitting along the grain? I....
    --- Epoxy in a patch of heavy glass cloth, drill through it, then washer and bolt? --Wade

  10. #3475
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- Epoxy in a patch of heavy glass cloth, drill through it, then washer and bolt? --Wade
    The bolt would have to go through both top and bottom of the crossbeam, meaning twice the opportunity for splits in beams. I'm just not sure how much flex might occur, hence my reluctance for any holes. There's also not a lot of room underneath since there is a stiffener bar across the boat there.

    I will check out how I can mount the thick G10 plate extending aft from the top face of the beam (think cantilever), but anticipate bolts and washers underneath either avoiding, or through a hardwood brace. A nice way might be to drill a square edged hardwood block for the inset nuts, then lop off the aft corner sort of as a big chamfer.

  11. #3476
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by phil_mclean View Post
    The bolt would have to go through both top and bottom of the crossbeam, meaning twice the opportunity for splits in beams. I'm just not sure how much flex might occur, hence my reluctance for any holes. There's also not a lot of room underneath since there is a stiffener bar across the boat there. ....
    --- Sounds as if wrapping that part in glass or carbon is an ideal solution: thin, strong, and would hold any split together.

    Another thing I did with my aka-ama connections is use SS bolts but provide them with shock absorption. I put the bolts in loose holes in the wood, then through large hard-rubber chunks I made, then washers and nuts. I can watch the ama flex a little in action, yet the inspection and tightening of the connectors is very easy, and there is no UV degradation. Although I think lashings are just fine, I wanted to experiment with this, and found it satisfactory. But never would I just through-bolt wood-to-wood any aka/ama connection, to avoid concentrated and unforgiving hard-points. --Wade

  12. #3477
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    So it sounds like you aren't worried about a bit of hardware on the crossbeam, as long as attention is given to reinforcement. I will be careful and use best practices. Thx

  13. #3478
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by phil_mclean View Post
    The bolt would have to go through both top and bottom of the crossbeam, meaning twice the opportunity for splits in beams. I'm just not sure how much flex might occur, hence my reluctance for any holes. There's also not a lot of room underneath since there is a stiffener bar across the boat there.

    I will check out how I can mount the thick G10 plate extending aft from the top face of the beam (think cantilever), but anticipate bolts and washers underneath either avoiding, or through a hardwood brace. A nice way might be to drill a square edged hardwood block for the inset nuts, then lop off the aft corner sort of as a big chamfer.
    Putting bolts and holes through the beams is not a good idea, I agree.

    Sticking with outrigger technology would be the way to avoid damaging the beams.
    What I would do in the spot where there is not much space under the beam, is to have a s/steel plate on top, as the cleat base and another one below the beam as a clamp face, by lashing them together with dyneema braid.
    Have both plates folded over the beam edges, to effect their sideways location and pull them together on both sides of the beam with the lashings, which of course need attachment points to the plates.
    To achieve this, have their adjacent edges capped with D6 s/steel round bar, and gaps at matching intervals along the length. Imagine the plates having their edges bent slightly outwards and with with widely spaced ‘teeth’ cut into them. Then on top of these ‘teeth’ is welded the round bar.

    Now wrap the dyneema over the round bars (in the adjacent spaces between the 'teeth') and apply tension.
    Also.I propose bonding a thin sheet of rubber bedding under the s/steel plates to help them hold location when clamped together.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 09-20-2017 at 03:41 PM.

  14. #3479
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    Default Raptor 16: Recommended Spare Parts?

    IIRC somebody here has a Raptor 16 - I think they post as "EDVB" on boatdesign.net.

    I am getting pretty close to buying a used Raptor 16 from The Man Himself: John Slattebo.


    Based on your ownership experience, are there any spare parts that I should try to get?


    I am thinking maybe the Bruce Foil, daggerboard, rudder.... so that the craft does not become useless if something breaks.

    ??
    Last edited by PeteCress; 01-05-2018 at 08:45 PM.

  15. #3480
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    Well heck! phil.
    You sure have tried to use soft fastenings wherever possible, so a compromise in a tight spot or two looks to be a worthwhile compromise.
    Backyard engineering using stainless steel plate could do for mounting the odd cleats.
    Fold the plate to lie over the edge of the cross beam and fasten with screws in shear.
    Countersunk 316 stainless screws with their heads exposed , should not pose any corrosion problem.
    So I engineered this solution out of thickish G10 plate.

  16. #3481
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread


  17. #3482
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    Default

    Nice solution.
    -Dave

  18. #3483
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Modern proas seem to have fallen by the way, but those who lean toward the original thing might find it interesting to know what has shown to be on offer in the way of wooden spars and maybe even woven mat sails......
    Just using this post to test whether my pic files are operational, and to do some explaining about a discovery I have made in the way of a split rig shunter configuration.
    Diagrams and explanation can be included to elaborate on what I am saying, which would probably be better to insert in the So Pahi thread.
    SO Pahi Split Sprit Rig.jpg
    Last edited by Lugalong; 07-30-2018 at 03:39 AM.

  19. #3484
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Lovely model.

    I think there are pockets of Proa developments going on. Poland springs to mind and I believe this is due to the expense/scarcity of materials which links back to the traditional proa requirements.

  20. #3485
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    Default

    https://youtu.be/_qeevNSk-7E

    Another Proa in tasmania. An unusual swinging tripod rig that didn't balance very well. So far they haven't completed the NZ trip. It is currently being worked on and a more traditional crab claw rig will be retrofitted.

    http://www.dantucker.co.nz/proa/firsttrip/

    A longer version of the video with more info on their background. They had a fair bit of sea experience before heading off. But the boat was pretty untested.
    https://youtu.be/VvYFV7C9g5A

  21. #3486
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Lovely model.

    I think there are pockets of Proa developments going on. Poland springs to mind and I believe this is due to the expense/scarcity of materials which links back to the traditional proa requirements.
    The model is more useful (as an aid in the building of the full scale craft) than it is an ornament, and especially so concerning split sprit this rig based on the Tuamotuan original.

    Polish proa enthusiasts you mention, are probably Janusz and co?, who use the Oceanic lateen rather than the sprit rig, which is what I was busy with before I worked out(using this model) how the Polynesian SO Pahi was rigged, and how much cheaper and easier?cheaper it would be to re-purpose modern sails for adaptation to the traditional configuration, along with using wooden spars.
    This plan of action was very much inspired by my negotiation with a sailmaker, when working toward using the Lateen rig, which was strung on the model at that point.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 07-30-2018 at 04:05 PM.

  22. #3487
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Pea View Post
    https://youtu.be/_qeevNSk-7E

    Another Proa in tasmania. An unusual swinging tripod rig that didn't balance very well. So far they haven't completed the NZ trip. It is currently being worked on and a more traditional crab claw rig will be retrofitted.

    http://www.dantucker.co.nz/proa/firsttrip/

    A longer version of the video with more info on their background. They had a fair bit of sea experience before heading off. But the boat was pretty untested.
    https://youtu.be/VvYFV7C9g5A
    Yep, there is the Tasmanian effort, which could be regarded as a modern experimental rig, whereas this split sprit can hopefully use fully traditional vegetable fibre sails, sometime in the near future.

  23. #3488
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    This just popped up of FB, hope the link works
    https://www.facebook.com/bazadeski/v...6160117127691/

    There is a beautiful purity to these craft, with some great weight steering being displayed.

    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

  24. #3489
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    This just popped up of FB, hope the link works
    https://www.facebook.com/bazadeski/v...6160117127691/

    There is a beautiful purity to these craft, with some great weight steering being displayed.

    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/
    Yes, for a small lightweight craft, sailing on flat water, the clip shows how well sorted it can be. Especially when modern materials are used.

    Something which has inspired me is the eastern Oceanic sail held in the British museum.
    Recently, the museum has published material on a sail held by them since late 18th century or early 19th. This matches the one shown and discussed in Haddon and Hornell's 'Canoes of Oceania. It is a sprit's, rather than the Oceanic Lateen, which is supposed` to represent the last stage of Oceanic rig development.
    When it comes to a somewhat bigger craft with ocean going capability, the sturdy sail in the British museum looks to be the answer ( google British museum sail, if interested, and find the third Polynesian sail.......the other two are the Maori and the Tahitian tacking sprit sails.)
    Last edited by Lugalong; 08-01-2018 at 03:22 AM.

  25. #3490
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    short film on FB, event in Poland, the bay in Baltic sea:

    https://www.facebook.com/piotr.szewc...8571633/?t=375

    we had 11 proas + 2 other boats
    on the film the wind is calm and you do not see all proas. The reason is - day before we had a realy strong wind, one mast bended, one broken and many minor disasters. Reto, Janusz, Paweł, Mateusz were sailing in constant 7bf, I did not even try it staying not further than 100 m from the shore this day with the comfortable 5bf

    many new proas. Yelow one is called "banana proa. Big 6m "Puch Pjoa" - brand new, all wooden, strip planking vaka, sailing really well. Another long one, I think 7 m with green sail, plywood, also new. Of course Lily`uokalani with Reto from Bayern, Germany, so I can write that a meeting was international. And one absoulutely traditional, even ropes natural, small dark one.

    trying to sail in the windy day on wa`apa I can just confirm what Gary Dierking has found long time ago, indeed leebord mounted on the main hull can become directionaly unstable during a shunt.

  26. #3491
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Great video. Looks like a wonderful event. Thanks for posting the link.
    -Dave

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