Sorry, my mistake, that was ~19 inches hull depth at center, not freeboard, for the Wa'Apa. The Tamanu is deeper, around 22-23. --Wade
Sorry, my mistake, that was ~19 inches hull depth at center, not freeboard, for the Wa'Apa. The Tamanu is deeper, around 22-23. --Wade
Another possibility is raising the iakos off of the deck by some significant amount as is done in Tahitian OC-1s viz: tinyurl.com/btzmvrn
... and also laminating some bend into the iakos so they rise up further under the polas.
I did this on a Mailbu Outrigger I built many moons ago and found it to increase comfort substantially over, say, a HobieCat. You sit on the pola on either side, and your heels rest on the vaka deck below the level of your hips.
Only problem I had was that I made the support structures that connect to the iakos and then pass through the deck and bond to the hull insufficiently strong. 3/4" ply broke under stress. 2x6's proved tb plenty strong. The sweet spot is probably somewhere in-between.
Last edited by PeteCress; 07-27-2012 at 02:08 PM.
Thanks, I have one on the drawing board - and thought for a moment that I had the proportions horribly wrong.
Complicated problems usually have simple solutions - which are almost always wrong.
I plan on using Gary's quick lashing method he uses on the decked area of the Tamanu. I was pretty quick and handy with lashings in when I was younger; but, have no desire to thread my lashings through a few small holes on the hull near the gunwale. I like the idea you the raised/bent iakos; however, I think I am going to go with straight box beams at first to keep it simple.
I'm thinking of running 2x4 type mounting brackets out of the hull for the rudder(s) attachment(s). Gary had posted a picture of this once, and I think it is used on the Tamanu as well.
I had to take the last few days off of working on my boat due to a bad back and will be camping until Monday. Thankfully, my back is doing better. I hope to get some more work done on my bulkheads during the week next week and assembling the hull on the following weekend.
Hi Tiki,
I agree with you re the lashing. I had a thread-through-the-holes setup on my cartopper and it got tiresome pretty quickly, I changed to Tamanu style and it is much faster.
I also did the 2x4 through the hull. Apart from mounting a bit low and having to re-cut and fit they are excellent. The full 2x4 is only necessary for an outboard motor mount. After my re-cut and fit I ended up with two 2x1s spaced about 4" apart vertically (like a 'hollow' 2x4). This is quite adequate for rudder mounting, and lighter, and less draggy if waves hit it.
looking forward to following your progress, Dave P
I am using stainless steel ratchet straps (from http://www.shipperssupplies.com/stor...sp?ITEM_ID=131) for iako-vaka and 1" strips cut from truck inner tubes for iako-ama.
viz: http://tinyurl.com/bmx4afj
Last time I put a stopwatch on it, my rigging time for Ulua (from trailer to beach ready to sail) was 19 minutes and 38 seconds.
I transport it totally taken apart except for the leeboard. If/when I work out the way to load/unload/transport it with iakos/ama/pola rigged (as in http://johnrollit.com/Ulua/Ulua18 or http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sA9rL4KUio...00/trailer.jpg or http://www.flickr.com/photos/outrigg...in/set-185726/, I think the time will go down to under 10 minutes - which is faster than most windsurfers can rig.
I'm pretty sure the ratchet straps are faster than nuts/bolts if they are left in place and the iakos just slid under them before tightening as per http://tinyurl.com/7lxanz7 . Also, besides being finger-friendly (the ratchet mech is *big*) there are no nuts/washers to get lost in the sand or grass.
Only caution I see is not overdoing the tension. The leverage is enough so an average person could damage the hull if they tried hard enough.
Last edited by PeteCress; 08-04-2012 at 10:01 AM.
Pete, the Ulua is looking better and better! Losing the useless 2x2's will be more weight saved. I love the ratchet straps too, the Hawaiians are using them on the HSCA canoes as are the Holopuni canoes. There is some trad. rigging going on but it's more for decoration IMHO.
Dan
Last edited by Dan St Gean; 08-04-2012 at 03:44 PM.
Got some more done on my build today. It is not progressing as fast as I hoped; but, it is moving along. All bulkheads/stations and sides are now cut out. I still need to do a little more trueing and planeing on my station 1 bulkheads. I am hoping to get some more build time in on Sunday and hope to epoxy the station 2 perimeter timber into place.
My next main task will be ripping the gunwale and chine stock.
I like the idea of rubber lashings for the cross beams across the iakos; but, will stick with traditional lashings vs cam straps for the main hull attachment.
PeteCress I like your modified 2x4 idea for the rudder attachment. Did you incorporate the cross beams into your station 1 bulkhead for added structural support? I am thinking just fore or aft would be best to keep things light;but, worry about interference issues between the rudder system and the iakos. I might have to move the rudder more aft.
Not that much weight. As Those Who Know have aleady advised me, the weight-to-work ratio is poor. I'll know how much weight when I weigh the thing after all the work is done, but it's not going to be much - whatever wood those 2x2's are is pretty light.
I started doing it mainly for three reasons:
- I'm recovering from surgery to correct complications from a prior surgery which complications The Wife is convinced arose because I did too much, too soon, too intensly after the original surgery. I can't really disagree with that... and I think she's gonna change the locks on the doors if I need yet another operation. That being the case, I'm restricted to the surgeon's and (more importantly) The Wife's most conservative restrictions vis-a-vis physical activity. In a nutshell, the summer of 2012 is shot to hell and I'm SOL until mid-October.... so I've gotta do *something*....
.- I've got all these cool tools and it seemed like a good opportunity to gain some proficiency with them.
.- Poor judgement....
In the process, I'm converting the back seat to a sliding webbed canoe seat. That's good for about 3 pounds and I am hoping will let me get the bow down where it belongs when one-manning it.
I'm also going to lower the front seat to the spec'd location so the leeboard works as designed. That *might* be good for a couple pounds if I choose the right seat material.... but weight isn't the driving reason.
Last edited by PeteCress; 08-04-2012 at 09:44 AM.
Glad I decided to stay with an steering oar, too. My self design tracks like a train but unfortunately, tacks like a train, too. Meaning it tacks very poorly but with an oar and not a rudder I can turn the bow across the wind by 'rowing' a few strokes with the oar on tacks.
Yeah the weight to work ratio is gonna be really bad there. It's WRC and light as 2x2's go. The only heavy wood used in the whole canoe is the ply in the mast step area which could be completely choped out if you go fwith Gary's specs for the step. Unless you have a narrow butt, I wouldn't lower the seat much. The lower location gives the board better support on the off side. Either way light is right.
Dan
Looking at the drawings on page 11 of Building Outrigger Sailing Canoes, it's not clear to me whether that fore seat has tb glued in place or it can just be screwed to the cleats.
On Station 12 it looks spretty clear that the rear seat is screwed.
But on the fore seat's drawing to the right of Station 15, I can't tell - and, since this seat is obviously structural....
My agenda is that screwing would allow trying different seats and also simplify replacement of a seat where rot has set in.
Last edited by PeteCress; 08-05-2012 at 08:52 AM.
Our kayak proa Zeno's Turtle out looking for a breeze to sail in this afternoon but not much to offer apart from a few puffs here and there:
Paddle power
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Last edited by JimD; 08-04-2012 at 07:50 PM.
I can't imagine how screwing the seat is much less structural than gluing. The book shows smal cleats that extend fore and aft a bit so varying seating placement would be easy with screws. I placed the front seat there so it would balance portaging it. Kinda brutal on a canoe that skinny though as it hits the traps as well as the deltiods. With a trailer it's pointless to hoist it overhead & with your back, not a good idea in any event. You could however help the trim be moving both seats forward some. I put the seats and the spacing where I did for paddling reasons, but it is really loose without a rudder. Huge props to the hawaiian canoe steersmen.
Anyhow, I'd be leery of placing the leeboard bolt that high up. You can see the initial hole up high. I felt that sailing in any breeze over about 8-10 knots on the tack that wants to pull the board away from the canoe (port) would nearly rip the gunwale off. That's why the hole(s) were below the seat to give a bearing surface that could stand the torque.
Whoops, Gary answered it before I had a chance to finish.
Come on Gary, how much longer?
I got involved with a landlubber type project (shame!!) that I need to finish by spring, and it has taken all of my spare time.
http://teardropbygary.blogspot.co.nz/
The Va'a Motu drawings are complete and there are a hundred or so construction photos, but it hasn't been put in a step by step format yet. If you are an experienced builder, I could release what I have.
I was looking at the van last week, it caught my eye as I'd been thinking about something similar (as a project after the boat)
No I'm not experienced, just impatient! I'm not starting my build until about April next year, it 's just that I haven't decided what to build yet. All of your designs have their attractions, but at the moment the Va'a Motu is winning, partly because of the anticipation of finding out a bit more about what she's like.
Can you at least post a couple more pics of the boat, or even a drawing or 2? Have you tried a differrent rig?
Yeah, I was waiting for the Va'a Motu plans as well; but, figured I could put the 16 foot Wa'Apa to use sooner at less cost. I am pretty jazzed about being able to break it down and will be honing my skills for another larger more complex build in the future.
My workshop consists of two folding tables under some trees. I keep telling myself guys sailed all over the pacific in boats that were built with stone age tools under the shade of trees. It's my inspiration in really.
I do plan on moving operations into the garage once the hull is assembled. Just not much space in there to work unfortunately. I just cover everything up outside when finished working and store assembled pieces in the garage. I do have a fanatsy of a proper canoe shelter built of palm fronds.
I am glad I chose the Wa'Apa for my first build. The design is straightforward enough to keep me out of trouble(so far).![]()
Here's a project that is probably worth looking at: http://www.boardlady.com/trailer.htm
If you read the rest of the site, you'll see that Eva is a *serious* craftsman in the area of boatbuilding and fiberglass work in general.
Progress update on my Wa'apa build.
I just finished epoxying my last gunwale on, still need to attach all my chines. I will try to pick up some bronze ring nails for that task tomorrow at a large Marine supply store tomorrow after work.
I epoxied up one of four stations. The wood is all cut out for the others.
I found my first mistake today as I revisted my station 1's to plain the edges and true them up - one was about an inch too narrow. Oops, it seems I got confused in my rush to beat sundown and didn't loft it properly. I've had to increase the station heights to match my increased hull depth and connected the wrong dots. I promptly cut out a new one and everything is moving along just fine. If I am not careful, it might just start looking like a boat soon.
Last edited by Tiki Pirate; 08-11-2012 at 12:01 AM.
Hi Tiki, there are photos on Garys' blog where you can see this rudder (and outboard) mount, search for Tamanu Easy Rider Fiji. Particularly as you are doing a Wa'apa.
I did my own take on this and it works well.
Fore and aft, it is between two stations: the rear iako station (bottom of image), and the station behind that (towards stern, sealed bouyancy). So rudder (outboard) mount is about 12"? behind rear iako. Simply cutting rectangular holes in the hull (4mm ply) for the 2x4 to pass through, gusseted with some 6mm ply and epoxy glued in was incredibly rigid and strong - brilliant idea Gary.
Later I modified - borrowing more of Garys' innovation (seen on his Fiji Tamanu).
On the right in image it is effectively two 2x2"s, with a 6mm ply bridging their rear faces to form an outboard mount.
On the left it is effectively two 2x1"s, lower one about 1" below my 40mm gunwale, upper one blocked up off gunwale by about 1". On far left I added 2x2" blocks, 1" thick, to give some meat and more separation for rudder hinges.
Hopefully not too confusing. As you see it is a work in progress - so no beautification. The tiller setup was flimsy, have re-worked that, still flimsy! Overall, it works quite well. Main current issue: might have been good to move it all aft to allow more room for tiller, but is about ideal fore-aft for outboard... hmmm. Probably need to re-think tiller setup completely.
Time to apply the Lotus mantra: "simplificate, then add lightness" !
cheers Dave
I'm ready to put new seats into Ulua, but cannot find a spec for how far down the seats go from the top of the gunwale.
Seems tb a critical measurement bco the forces generated by the leeboard.
I notice that my hull is starting to fail in the vicinity of the leeboard bc, I'm guessing, a non-standard seat installation...
To Wit:
- Fiberglass weave beginning to separate from resin: http://tinyurl.com/8utrf7l
.- Cedar strip starting to bulge out in vicinity of leeboard: http://tinyurl.com/9x4lrmm
Bottom line : this time I want to get it right.
Distance from top of gunwale to top of cleat under seat? (as opposed to top of seat - to take seat variations out of the picture)
Last edited by Gary Dierking; 08-14-2012 at 03:14 PM.
Havent posted here in a while! Well I've been super busy with my plastic keelboat and haven't had time to use my outrigger even once this season. It's taking up space and I'm moving so it has to go, despite all the fun I've had with it. Anyway, if anyone wants it I will give it away for free just pm me. Someone should enjoy it!
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“The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais
Back again from 3 weeks of biking Ireland; great time, but I have only sailed my own outrigger once this season :-( Fervently hoping for a warm fall and winter to get in as much time as possible and get used to the new mainsail. I decided not to attend the North Carolina Challenge starting in a month -- After 5 weeks of traveling this summer, I'm tired, there are job-related complications, and I started (admittedly while being tired) that Short Dragon is not the boat to paddle that long canal in the NCC, but perhaps I am just making excuses for being tired! I hope your sailing season(s) have gone well! -- Wade
Haha I'm not moving out of the area I'm simply moving to a place where storage will be an issue.
I have kept it stored in my girlfriend's father's backyard since last season. I thought my next place would have a garage but alas it wasn't an option for me and I can't keep it at his hous forever. Frankly someone should enjoy it if I'm too busy with my plastic boat.
I would still love to sail your GIS with you on sandy hook bay Dave! Stay in touch! I'm over at sailnet alot these days so pm'ing me there is the best way to reach me.
As much as I love my Hunter 25, it was pretty dissapointing at first maxing 6 knots on the GPS, when my homemade boat's averages were closer to 6-7![]()
“The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais
New photos posted on my website (link below). The photo of the leeboard rails is for someone off-list who was wanted a closer look. The photos of the sail and rigging, with accompanying explanation on the webpage, are for anybody who wants to comment about my new sail issues. I sailed with this new rig only twice so far, on a lake, the first time in 5-10 mph wind, and yesterday in variable 3 mph. Since I averaged 2.5 knots in that terrible 3 mph yesterday, I guess I cannot complain much, relatively speaking, but the flat shape in the top of this squared-out sail disturbs me. The other issue (the foot) I can probably solve easily. An issue not mentioned on the webpage is the crappy halyard the sail came with. I thought it was low-stretch, but turns out, no, it is nylon, so the low-stretch downhaul was just stretching the halyard, so some shape improvement (ie, getting rid of the diagonal wrinkle) will come from replacing the halyard.
http://www.wtarzia.com/NewSaiilforShortDragon.html
-- Wade
Last edited by wtarzia; 08-25-2012 at 11:03 AM.
Looks exactly like a finwhale!
actually more like a humpback!
I just checked some photos of whales on google. I work in western alaska and I see this profile all the time, I guess I must mis-identify whales oftener than I think.
Has it been overtaken?
Complicated problems usually have simple solutions - which are almost always wrong.
Very cool. Who's Zeno? Great build by the way, looks like a lot of fun. Any photos of the sailing rig?
Since it's a double of sorts, how about naming it "Zeno's PairofDucks"?
I seem to recall reading about Zeno some time in the past now that you refresh my mind.
I found your photos of your rig, nice! I have built a Waapa. There's some photos on GD's website and way back on this thread. How are you planning to change your rig? I see you have a yulogh, how's that working for you? I want to make one for my Gypsy and one for my Waapa. I just can't seem to get started on that. I spent a couple of years on China and I was impressed by how they get around with them.
Co-incidentally I happen to work in your backyard! I just transferred from Western Alaska and now work delivering fuel from Anacortes to Vancouver (city).
Hey all!
I finally have an outrigger project underway! Most of the strips are on my Ulua hull now, and I'm starting on the iako laminations this week. It has been great fun so far. I have been following this thread (along with Yahoo groups, duckworks, proa wiki, proafile etc) for years now and am excited to be close to actually having an outrigger. I have the Wharram Melenesia plans, and have built the frames for a Wa'apa but this is the farthest I have progressed on a project in a long time.
I want to stick as close to the plans as possible and have really appreciated the posts over time that prove that to be a solid course of action. I recently joined the Clearwater Community Sailing Center to scratch my sailing itch, since I sold my monohull a few years back. Sailing the Hobie Getaways has been great fun, but I can't wait to splash this one!
I will be updating periodically on my site and would appreciate any comments/suggestions!
http://www.flsail.com/projects/59-ulua-blog.html
Thanks
Jon
Jon
If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable.--Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)
Question for Ulua owners. Do you have trouble tracking when paddling ? Do we need to add a skeg? The boat is fairly unmanageable unless one person steers and the other paddles. We have tried shifting weight with some improvement but still not what we were hoping for. Anyone else experience this?
Thanks Dan,
I know the site is goofed, I just was messing around when Joomla 1.5 came out a few years back. Joomla 3.0 is coming out soon, so I may get motivated to change again for that. In the mean time, I will poke around and see if I can remember how to change the color of links before they are clicked, I forgot they are blue.
Jon
Jon
If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable.--Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD)
Yes.
I still cannot paddle Ulua reliably without using a rudder. Seems like once the bow deviates a certain amount from course, it's all over and no amount of corrective stroke will save it until the boat comes almost to a stop. The worse of the two sides is the ama side, but they are both unmanagable after a certain point.
When I was playing around with a rudder, I found that rigging a line to the tiller, running it through a couple of pulleys on the rear iako, and sitting on the line to stabilize the rudder gave me a sort of skeg - and that more-or-less worked.
The concensus, however, seems to be that Ulua needs a rudder with foot controls for enjoyable paddling.
Dave Pont shows an elegantly-simple foot control at http://tinyurl.com/8rmtvt7.
Gary Dierking built a dedicated "Paddling" ulua with lower freeboard, more floatation, and - of course - a rudder: http://tinyurl.com/9bpev9m
Not being ready for a rudder yet, I have temporarily given up on just paddling. When I want to paddle, I put up the sail and "Paddle Sail". Light air, of course, is vastly preferable. Somehow Ulua becomes more controllable with the sail up and a enough wind to fill it. My guess is that the added momentum under sail lets me paddle-steer more without coming to a stop.
Last edited by PeteCress; 09-10-2012 at 04:29 PM.
Rudders and skegs really sap the energy out of paddling. They are like having the emergency brake left on. Try and solve the imbalance by using some ballast forward or aft. If you are not loaded for a trip take a sack of gravel or something and move it around until you find out where it will do you some good. Moving your seat forward or aft if you are able is also a good way. Ballast will not slow you down and might actually speed up the boat by adding water length and carry. Loading the boat for the prevailing conditions is a good habit to get into. Load heavy forward if you are going to weather and aft if you are running or neutral for a beam reach.
I like the little balanced lug! I first tried that type of rig on my Waapa because I was using bamboo for the spar and had to have a sail that didn't have parrel lines to run up and down because of the joints in the bamboo. After I got used to them I really like them. They are much more efficient than you would think. No wonder they were the most common rig on small working boats for hundreds of years.