Looking forward to reading about how she performs, and don't forget the action shots.
Looking forward to reading about how she performs, and don't forget the action shots.
Nosce te ipsum
All lashed up and as ready as its going to get. The only thing missing is a proper seat and I won't make that until I find out how I end up sitting in it:
I've decided to name it Zeno's Turtle. Unless I change my mind.
Last edited by JimD; 07-01-2012 at 05:22 PM.
On my instance of Ulua, water is hitting the aft iako/ama connection on anything but the most modest trimaran tack.
Photo pending a waterproof bag and being able to sail.
Is this strictly a weight distribution thing? Or could there be another cause?
Here's the canoe with just me in it - and it looks to me like it's stern-heavy: http://tinyurl.com/7mnndx6
Remedies besides moving weight foward?
Can anyone offer any information on manufacturer or model?
Close-up of sail insignia & sail maker's label;
We can find no HIN nor Manufacturer's plate.
(scroll forward to 2:06)
At first I thought that was a a "Virus Proa" which some British company was building as a tacking outrigger, but then, the Virus had a pretty wide vaka, and company ad showed someone rowing it as a monohull. So, no, I guess not! -- Wade
Last edited by JimD; 07-02-2012 at 02:14 PM.
Nosce te ipsum
Yes, I ran across that sail insignia too researching this boat. It is possible the sail is not original.I was able to find a sail insignia of a bare foot but it was a mirror image of yours and belonged to the Hotfoot 27, a mono hull built right here in my backyard in Victoria. Is it possible that the sail is not original to the boat?
I am following a lead and awaiting a reply - I will post more when I have additional information.
Another interesting design detail is the molded half circle on each side of the bow. When viewed head on, the boat
looks like is has an eye!
..so I took ZT for her maiden paddle this morning on maple bay and it was a resounding success. Just about everything I had hoped for. Will go for the first sail tomorrow or friday. just a few minor adjustments to do this afternoon. I may never look at our monohull again. The stability of lashing a little ama to a kayak is amazing. The whole boat only weighs about 100 pounds and transports in two 50 pound chucks requiring only two lashes to be tied at the beach. Quick, easy, no strain, no hassle. Really looking forward to sailing. summer is here at last. The ama I built by pure guess work is exactly what I had hoped for. With me in the kayak the proa sits perfectly level, and when I climb out to the ama and put all my weight on it I still have about a half inch of freeboard. Its deep vee also draws enough water that hopefully it will provide all the lateral resistance required for sailing. The steering paddle worked well, is ergonometrically very well placed, and being able to use it as a stern side thruster to turn on a dime is a nice feature. Pics under sail on friday if all goes well.
Last edited by JimD; 07-04-2012 at 04:11 PM.
Just got Shan Skailyn's folding crossbeam hinges done yesterday. Since I haven't yet figured out how to post pictures I'll just refer you to the Shan Skailyn blog where I've posted them. Now we pack them up and get ready to take them back to Mibu, Papua New Guinea in just a couple weeks.
Here is a picture of a proa in her natural habitat:
(I used to work for the company that owned that ship.... our toast was "Life's Hell in the East!...)
Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 07-05-2012 at 01:13 PM.
IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT
ZT's maiden sail:
Cathy searching for wind:
For a moment the sail almost filled:
Done for today. Will try again on Monday:
Last edited by JimD; 07-06-2012 at 06:01 PM.
Thinking that the above jib won't be big enough even when there is some wind I'm switching to a bigger one. It meant using a 17 foot length of 2 inch aluminum tube for a mast. Being very bendy I added a backstay. The easiest way to do this was to turn the boat on its side:
The new sail is about 18 sq ft bigger, and I've left plenty of head clearance (my head, the sail's foot) which should also provide better visability which was clear after the first sail was going to be a problem. Added a boom, too:
Last edited by JimD; 07-09-2012 at 07:49 AM.
I've managed to ampute the glassed-in seat on my Ulua without doing any damage.... I hope...
Almost exactly 4 pounds.
Now I want to replace it with a sliding seat so I can move my weight forward when sailing solo.
Having the advantages of parallel gunwales and very long legs, I'm thinking of a seat that just sits atop the gunwales and slides on them.
On the surface it seems pretty obvious. Maybe even as simple as buying a ready-made canoe seat, triming the cross bars to size, and adding something to grab the gunwales from underneath.
- Slide fore-aft
- Weigh less than 4 pounds
- Not float free in capsize
- Stay attached and in place with vaka upside-down, bouncing along on a trailer
- Minimal weight
- Lock fore-aft in place easily and unlock easily or, at least, not slide *too* easily.
Anybody been here?
Pete, I never had your problems since my outrigger was meant to be a solo-boat, so I sit in the same place all the time except on the proa tack. Perhaps i do not do fine-tuning that way, but if anything I should be sitting further back (but alomost out of room there)because as I move to taller rigs, the bow is decidedly being pushed down. My seat is just screwed down 3/4 pine with a PFD-cushion to sit on. I was going to saw out the pine and replace with something lighter, but haven't yet. I can stand on the seat if I want, while holding on to the mizzen mast behind my back, to get a look at something, so I keep the heavy seat. Seems to me my personal mistakes in building a bullet-proof hull outweigh (pun intended) the smaller weight issues like this.
But if you build a light hull, you are nearly all the way there, and if a couple of accessories are a little heavy, (like 4 pounds :-) then I don't see much of an issue. You don't want to put your ass or foot through something.
For sliding, I wonder if some mast-track sections that take a T-slug (used to sell these at Jamestown Distributors) would be a light, strong, and elegant way to rig a sliding seat? --Wade
The goal here is mainly the functionality of movement and not losing the seat under adverse conditions.
But the main hull is already 113# (spec is closer to 85) and I don't want to add any more.
Maybe I'm dreaming, but it seems like 4 pounds max is generous for a seat, considering the weight of the average el-cheapo alu beach chair.
FWIW, here's part of what makes me think I'm running stern-heavy: http://tinyurl.com/6v4xbwd
The rest is in finding I can point quite a few degrees higher with my weight forward plus the aft ama/iako connection catching water on trimaran tack.
Last edited by PeteCress; 07-09-2012 at 03:01 PM.
Since youVe taken the step of taking out the seats, why not go while hog with your planned mods and go with an 8' span between the iakos? Find where you want to sit, and move the iakos (and ama) to where it will work best for solo usage. My intenet all along was to sit on a tramp/pola 18" to windward or more and steer with a rudder. Steering with a canoe paddle solo is a whole different ball of wax. It's a tough situation as all the HSCA guys have a steersman way aft, but they have 3-6 paddlers. Solo wants you just aft af the middle for best trim. The pic on Wikiproa shows me sitting forward of the aft seat on the gunwale on a throwable cushion. That got my weight formard nearly to the front seat location. Did you take out both seats? That might make the canoe pretty wiggly unless you add a thwart. If it was the aft seat only, I'd say you're fine. You could hack out another couple pounds by removing the stupid 2x2 inside the canoe as well, but that's a fair bit of work. The Manu are also a bit big and heavy if you are really going whole hog on the weight reduction. If you realy want to go crazy with weight reduction, tear out the 2x2's, the mast step, both seats, and more decking and go with Gary's plan to a T. More work for sure, but the hull was glassed before any of those components were added, so you do have an indicator of when to stop. The hull could continue it's diet, and your back will thank you for every unnecessary pound you rip outa there. You could easily do a totally stock Ulua with the 3' stretch and save lots of weight.
As for the slidable seat that stays put to some degree, I'd buy a commercially made canoe sear, cane or webbing, and make an L shaped block of wood or aluminum angle that hooks under the gunwale. The inside would be prettier. The seat would be retained by the clips and slide along anywhere it's parallel.
Is the leeboard location still the same with the new rig or are you paddling upwind or dealing with the angles? I really like Gary's hiking seats he's made too that run from gunwale to pola. Tough to paddle steer from there though. Ed Van Belcom runs his single outrigger Raptor 16 with water balast on the ama since that boat doesn't permit hiking out and he doesn't realy like the foil ir came with.
Last edited by Dan St Gean; 07-09-2012 at 03:20 PM.
That's the first thing that came to mind. I was just trolling for any fatal flaws... or better ideas...As for the slidable seat that stays put to some degree, I'd buy a commercially made canoe sear, cane or webbing, and make an L shaped block of wood or aluminum angle that hooks under the gunwale. The inside would be prettier. The seat would be retained by the clips and slide along anywhere it's parallel.
Same location. Of course the whole rig works "right" with leeboard down.... But I'm sailing it a lot with leeboard up mainly bc I'm not pointing - but also bc it's interesting to see how well I can point without it... weight placement, sail trim, and all that.....Is the leeboard location still the same with the new rig
The original leeboard was too massive for me, so I recruited the long rudder for leeboard duty and it seems to work pretty well so far. Put a little reinforcement around the bolt in the form of a 2" x 8" hunk of 3/4" oak in lieu of Gary's spec'd Alu... once I find a source of Alu, I'll probably use that bc my implementation of the oak is kind of ugly.
If I go to a rudder, I think it will be Gary's cassette implementation... but that's way down the pike.
So I took the vaka only out for a paddle to see how serviceable it is as a kayak and the answer is not very serviceable. This is a narrow, responsive kayak hull and without a snug cockpit it really isn't much good as a kayak any more. Oh well, live and learn. The gears are already turning as to the best way to deepen the hull a foot or so. I'm thinking I will just add a simple dory bottom to it, not even remove the old bottom except in the cockpit for a foot well. So it will be double hulled so to speak. Very strong and safe, with not too much weight penalty. Probably no more than ten pounds. Any thoughts anyone? Constructive criticism as well as ridicule will be given equal consideration
Additionally, look up the leeboard stuff from the www.diy-tri.com guy, Frank Smoot. His it much like the rudder foil you are using, but holds tight at any angle you set. He mentioned that he has set the tension on one of his tris a year ago and it still stays put without any fiddling anywhere he sets it. The secret? He bores a big hole to allow more bearing surface for friction to work it's magic. That's a simplification of the BSD leeboard with a cone shaped projection that gets tightened. Frank uses a double nut to keep it where he wants it. Slick, cheap, and right on the money.
I did a little calculation and came up with 4.72#/ft. of boat length of a regular Ulua hull, while the stretched and overbuilt hull is 5.38#/ft. Ripping out the excess stuff and making it a "stock" ulua at 4.72#/ft would make for a hull of 99#. Going for broke in the lightweight category would have to include new akas that are hollow. At some point, it's only a couple # though.
I don't know the guy in the photo. I picked it because he looks so happy standing on his kayak.
Or mini amas
I'm thinking the double bottom thing will work quite well since I can just cut four or five 1/4 inch cross section slits through the existing vee bottom up to the chine, slide ply bulkheads into the slits. From there adding the bottom and side panels should be fairly straight forward. Won't do it until October, though. This is going to be a fun beach boat as is for the summer. But it clearly has its limitations with such a shallow, low volume greenland kayak hull.
Last edited by JimD; 07-09-2012 at 11:43 PM.
Barefoot 12 Outrigger ~
I received B&W copies from Dick Medve in Hawaii, co-owner designer for Barefoot Enterprises who produced the 'High Performance Sailing Outrigger Barefoot 12'.
We are currently exchanging information, however, the story goes ... In 1960(s) the boat was produced to compete in price with the then new, Hobie 14 catamaran. In 1970(s), a small fleet was shipped to Walt Disney World Florida to be sailed off the beach for the opening celebration of the Polynesian Resort. Each boat had a very distinctive 'Tiki' mask affixed to the bow, carying the Outrigger theme and the hulls were available in 6 custom colors.
Assuming 1970, I get about $6,000 in 2012 dollars per
Sabalminor, any idea how it fared in performance to the Hobie 14?
Found a colourful second hand dinghy sail for $45 that I can use on the forward mast step of Zeno's Arrow so it looks like my experiment with aft masts is on hold for a while. Got it rigged today and hopefully will sail tomorrow:
It looks like the thanks go to Peter Evans.
In http://www.tacking-outrigger.com/kir8a.pdf towards the lower right of the page, it seems to say that the "Empty" displacement of the main hull plus outrigger is 220 kg (484 pounds) and the "Loaded" figure is 515 kg (1, 133 pounds).
Is "Displacement" the same as weight in this context? I'm guessing that it means that the referenced object, when dumped in water, pushes that weight of water out of the way to float itself.
Is this to say that, for the purposes of pulling the boat up-and-down the beach or on-off a trailer, the weight of hull + outrigger is almost 484 pounds and iakos, pola, sailing rig, rudder, rigging are extra?
Also, is that to say that the carrying capacity at the designed freeboard is 649 pounds? (1,133 - 484) minus whatever aforementione iakos/pola/rig weigh?
Last edited by PeteCress; 07-18-2012 at 12:17 PM.
You may find it interesting:
Finally took Short Dragon out for its first cruise of the season. I let a lot of things get ahead of me (including some fun things such as the Texas 200 and hanging out with proa-sailor Kevin O'Neill) thus the late start.
The 'big' modification for this season was not so big -- add provisions to support a 17 foot mast carrying a new battened mainsail, 75 square feet, almost square-top (14 foot luff, 6.5 foot bottom) -- includng a third outrigger and a short bowsprit. I also am again trying a push-pull tiller. Last year this capsized me when I pushed instead of pulled, but I added a longer yoke (about 20 inches) which adds leverage and also slows down the steering rate so that I have a split second longer to change my mind, which does help. I had to add an aka on the non-ama side to carry that side's shroud. I will add another aft soon to carry the inflatable safety ama (should ride 12-14 inches over flat water). For shrouds I used 1/8 inch Vectran, attahing them to the akas horn cleats (this synthetic does cleat pretty well unlike some others). I use a 20 squarefot mizzen sail to complete the rig, which maintains my old total sail area but redistributes it more to the mailsail, and little higher on tthat main sail (tip of former standing lug main was 12 feet over bottom of boat, new sail is 17 feet over the bottom). Finally, add the new 5 loot long leeboard (adds one foot over old one, for total of three feet clear under the boat). The idea was to get to windward better. Photo here: http://www.facebook.com/wade.tarzia?...type=1&theater
I took the boat to Bantam Lake (almost 3 miles long) to test it all out, conditions 7-9 mph, gusts to 16 mph. Set up time was 30 minutes (wheels stopped in marina to wheels stopped after launching the boat), which surprized me a little -- I thought it would take longer given the addition of stay and shrouds. I thought at first the boat pointed higher than ever, but perhaps this was the first flush of excitement with a new rig.
Later on I was not so sure -- the GPS track did not seem much higher than my old standing lug cat-ketch. But perhaps I was sailing lower for more speed. I was going to windward at about 5 knots which was faster than usual, which tells me I need to pinch a little higher to make a comparision with the old rig. So I am disappointed to say that increased windward performance did not leap out at me and slap me in the face with a "wow!" (especially with all the work done on that bigger board). I was expecting a 7-10 degree kind of 'wow'.
The longer board does stress the aircraft aluminum bearing-rails more, but the bending does not alarm me yet (maybe an inch to inch and a half over their 40 inch length).
As ever, the trimaran tack was best, the proa tack was not too bad, but the taller rig definitely wants to kncok the boat down if I am not attentive (= getting out on the side seat fast). The shroud-outrigger (made from my curved EC trimaran-inflatable aka, cut down) caught water once = could trip boat? I intended for the big (400 pound displacement) safety ama for that side, and I had better get on that immediately, certainly for coastal sailing. Then, though the boat will still essentially be made to sail as a single-outrigger on the old wooden deep-V ama, I guess that safety ama will catch water often enough to make it a trimaran in that 2 foot chop on the coast and during gusts.
One problem (maybe 2) with the new sail I need to iron out is the sheeting angle. The used sail arrived as a boomless rig (batten at bottom). The former owner, who did not use it much, mentioned thinking about adding a boom. (I have an old wooden one that will fit, but the bad sheeting angle will remain since the boom end would not extend to the aft aka where the traveler rope can be set up.). For this first test cruise, it is still boomless; I mickey-moused the "traveler" at an angle that bisected the clew angle, but I did this foolishly by sheeting it in tight to centerline. In reality of course the sail goes to lee, and the angle will be different (in fact will change in the different sailing courses. The foot of the sail is too short to reach the traveler rope used on the old rig -- which, ending at the non-ama aka end, was always too narrow on the proa tack, but extending along the ama, gave good sheeting angle on the trimaran tack. The current sheet had only about 15 inches of travel along the bottom of the cockpit seat.
Thus, all told I believe the top of the sail was twisting off too much. I am not skilled at judging twist angle and certainly not with this new battened square-top sail, so I need to work this out.
Also, I had the feeling that sail shape is not good at the top of the sail. There are two battens up there: the diagonal that acts like a leech batten to hold the leech (roach) out, and just under that, the first in the series of horizontal battens. I am thinking that may be a lot of stiff stuff up there interfering with the potential shape of the head of the sail. I will Todd Bradshaw would drop in on this thread and comment :-) .
Yes, I need to take some still photos (it was good sailing and my hands were pretty full), though I managed a video which I will post soon. I need to pay more attention to the curve of the battens as indicators of sail shape, but if memory serves, the head seemed a little flat. This is a pretty new sail (former owner did not use much then sold his canoe I believe) so perhaps it nbeeds some breaking in? Do sails need that?
I leave for Ireland for stint of bike-camping and folklore/archaeology research for three week, so alas, may not get back to this for a while. Hope your collective sailing season is going well. Apologies to a couple of people who sent private mail I have not gotten to yet or replied with less detail than usual -- been very busy with balancing both fun and some family issues! -- Wade
Last edited by wtarzia; 07-19-2012 at 09:32 AM.
Dang, Wade, your facebook page wouldn't open. Will have to try again later.
JimD wrote;Dick Medve the designer stated that on a broad reach 'she would fly' and accelerates very quickly, if you didn't pay attentionSabalminor, any idea how it fared in performance to the Hobie 14?
you would end up in the water, thrown off the back and holding onto the main sheet!
I have had contact from the second owner back (who purchased her in early 1990s). He stated that like many multihulls
it was easy to get into irons, you needed speed to tack and that she was a very stable boat. With two on board, she was not fast.
Dick Medve also concurred about the stability and said that she made an excellent fishing platform - with ample room for cooler and fishing gear storage in the vaca.
Once I complete the rebuild/refit and get her in the water, we'll see how she sails!
Anyway, the 'going to windward' video is up, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXvmU...ature=youtu.be I may also post the downwind video for a week or so. --W
Last edited by wtarzia; 07-19-2012 at 12:24 PM. Reason: added youtube link
You can see some similar outriggers here.
Well I finally made some saw cuts and started my 16' two piece Wa'apa build. I'm taking any and all advice.
So far I have my side panels cut out (4mm HydroTech) marine ply. I used the default bottom rocker but left the top sheer straight; so I have 22 3/8" freeboard at station 1 and 23 7/8" freeboard at station 2(amidship). I've got some lumber ripped for the bulkheads, etc..
I am still a bit undecided on if it is going to be a tacker or a true proa. I live in the SF Bay Area and the wind can be pretty constant from east to west -with things like islands, bridges, and ridges to mess that up. It can blow really hard here, and the tides rip pretty good as well.
If built as a tacker I'd deck the entire front and make a wood hatch (16" x 18" or so) to create a seat/paddle station in the front. As a proa.. or even a tacking rig I thought a self draining cockpit 12"-14" up form the bottom might be good on either the front or both ends. All this has been discussed here before.
After cutting out the sides I did notice the freeboard is quite high, but really only a few inches more than the boat as designed. I am a bit concerned about windage during tacking. (Another reason a proa might be a good option) I could "fix" the look of the flat sheer by adding some dashboards. I am a big boy (215 lbs) and figure I will be sailing alone most of the time(realist). My wife is just over a hundred pounds soaking wet, and daughter weighing in at 27 lbs currently. If I had them aboard it would be in calmer waters. I'd like to camp cruise (ex-climber/backpacker so I can keep it light). I'd build the longer 24'er but I want to cartop for now.
Planning on glassing the bottom inside/out with 6oz glass and the outsides of the top with 4 oz glass. I have 2 gallons of the duckworks economy epoxy and some wood flour. Any advice on additives for fairing etc? Also I plan on using a cassette style quarter rudder (or two? if proa)
Anyhow. I will post pictures once it goes 3-D. Right now it is still a pile of lumber. Hope to get some more done this week before I head out for a camp trip.
Thanks again everyone for the great thread/info.
Thanks for the advice Wade. I guess I could always chop the top down later.
Indeed P.I., freeboard was not the proper term from my OP. I guess hull depth would be better at this point. Either way I am going to stick with the increased hull depth for now.
I am trying to build as light as I can; while still adding a few mods. I plan on building a 14' ama nui for it; but, it is difficult finding blue foam here in California since it typically doesn't get that cold here.
I am thinking of extending the front deck just past the mast collar area on the plans and putting in a raised cockpit floor. If I built both ends identical I could use it as a proa a w/schooner rig, and/or a traditional crabclaw. I could always configure it as a tacking rig later. I plan on using throwable seat cushions/life preservers on the deck seat areas to increase some legroom that is lost w/raised cockpit floor.
In the future I may add a 4'-6' middle section; but, I want something small for now. I'd like to stay under 23' as not to run afoul with the USCG for not having fixed nav lights if I ever find myself sailing at night.