The outrigger and proa thread

[Dan St Gean]

Wade,

I was referring to the cleat being behind the sailor paddle steering. That's awkward. If it's in front, it's much better if you are sitting in the canoe. Seated hiked out & steering with a tiller extension it could be either place. Either way, huge props to Kiko and others that sail their canoes paddle steering solo.

Dan

[OconeePirate]

I finally started a building thread for my Wa'apa.

[PeteCress]

... huge props to Kiko and others that sail their canoes paddle steering solo.

I'm *still* wondering how those guys get upwind. Posted a question on YouTube.180 Da'grees North: Part 1 (http://tinyurl.com/84ttcog) , but no replies.

My current guess is that his trips are basically downwinders.

The only other thing I can think of is that his hull shapes point better - but I think that's a stretch...

[Dan St Gean]

I'm *still* wondering how those guys get upwind. Posted a question on YouTube.180 Da'grees North: Part 1 (http://tinyurl.com/84ttcog) , but no replies.

My current guess is that his trips are basically downwinders.

The only other thing I can think of is that his hull shapes point better - but I think that's a stretch...

Especially since his hull sections are rounder than Gary's Ulua. With serious V sections it should go upwind ok, but it still leaves me sheeting with my foot or paddle steering with one hand. Watching the admittedly powered up holopuni videos, I can't imagine doing that with one hand--and they have two daggers to fine tune balance!

Dan

[Shan Skailyn]

One thing to keep in mind about kites is that they are extremely powerful.

Ended up taking a cruise up the western coast of the peninsula, up through Pacifica and Land's End, near the Golden Gate Bridge. Watched a few folks kite surfing for a while and it became clear to me just what you were saying about the power. Wow! Then watched that video you mentioned. Both 'Wow!' and hilarious. I'm not sure I'd be ready to do anything like that with Shan Skailyn. I've not even sailed it yet. Kite power is interesting, but seems beyond anything I'd be ready to try for a long time. But man... it's cool!

[PeteCress]

Both 'Wow!' and hilarious.

Here are a couple that are weighted more towards "Wow!":

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMZcw...eature=related (skip forward to 3:00 to get to the essence of it)
  .
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czfEh...eature=related (this is more typical of what happens to kiters around where I sail... like I said before, *everybody* I know that kites has a story.... some have a few....They even have a term for it: "Getting Tea-Bagged")

(I Googled "Kitemare")

[Dan St Gean]

Here's the outrigger version of the tri linked in the other thread.






Dan

[PeteCress]

I'm *still* wondering how those guys get upwind.

I think I found one answer today: weight forward, don't oversheet - as in about 2/3 of the way to the front seat from the rear seat.

It wasn't exactly wonderful, but I was able to get everywhere I could get using the leeboard - just took more tacks. OTOH, there was no current or tide in the picture....

Plus, Kiko's boats all seem to have two people in them - so add a little paddle poking by the crew around where a leeboard would be and I think I see how one could manage.

[Dan St Gean]

kiko seemed to paddle solo in part I. Have you emailed him? He's a wealth of information. He runs charter trips out of the Big Island usually in his double canoe.


Dan

[Dan St Gean]

Another Kiko video.


Dan

[wtarzia]

Maybe he doesn't go to windward much -- maybe 75 degrees to windward at best, as has been reported by Ben Finney I think for traditional sailing canoes without boards (also same in East is a Big Bird for Micronesian deep-hull proas). But do go to Tim Anderson's website and read his Chuck Shipman interview, where Shipman claims (I seem to recall) that a round skinny hull gets lateral resistance from some kind of wave effect. I don't know. People often have very loose criteria for what "windward" is, and the words "fair", "good", "acceptible" are themselves vague, relativist terms. After all, 89 degrees on the wind (CMG) is basically "windward". -- Wade

[PeteCress]

Outrigger canoe, 21' LOA, pic at: http://tinyurl.com/7yzj5ua

Distance between iakos is 10' 6".

I am about to re-do the iako attachment points on the ama (which is a starboard-side ama being used on port) or maybe even fabricate a new, smaller ama (something with small-enough volume for Yours Truly to stand on and sink deep enough to do the dump-water-from-vaka thing).

I'm thinking about moving the iakos closer together when I do that - to approximate the spec'd distance of 7'10".

Rationale:

• 10' 6" needs a considerably more massive pola spar to not sag
  .
• Many things come in 8' lengths, few things come in 11' lengths.

This impresses me as being a fairly complicated problem bco weight distribution, paddle clearance, COE considerations and, probably, stuff that hasn't even dawned on me yet.


Two Questions:

1. Have I been drinking too much coffee (again)? i.e. Is this just a dumb idea?
   .
2. If not, how would you move said iako attachment points? Move rear forward? Move front backward? Move both towards the center?

[Dan St Gean]

Outrigger canoe, 21' LOA, pic at: http://tinyurl.com/7yzj5ua

Distance between iakos is 10' 6".

I am about to re-do the iako attachment points on the ama (which is a starboard-side ama being used on port) or maybe even fabricate a new, smaller ama (something with small-enough volume for Yours Truly to stand on and sink deep enough to do the dump-water-from-vaka thing).

I'm thinking about moving the iakos closer together when I do that - to approximate the spec'd distance of 7'10".

Rationale:

• 10' 6" needs a considerably more massive pola spar to not sag
  .
• Many things come in 8' lengths, few things come in 11' lengths.

This impresses me as being a fairly complicated problem bco weight distribution, paddle clearance, COE considerations and, probably, stuff that hasn't even dawned on me yet.


Two Questions:

1. Have I been drinking too much coffee (again)? i.e. Is this just a dumb idea?
   .
2. If not, how would you move said iako attachment points? Move rear forward? Move front backward? Move both towards the center?

Moving the iako froward of the rear seat seems like a natural to me if you want to go with an 8' span. Additionally, it will give you a nice placement for your block while paddle steering like Kiko's canoe shows above. His hull is longer than 21', but it should be workable. When I built it, I placed the front edge of the front seat on the balance point so I could portage the boat. At over 100# that didn't happen much. You could reasonably easily move one or both seats with a bit of grinding. I placed the seats 4' apart for lots of paddle swing room--way more than on any OC really & thus could stand tightening up if you want. Rather than build an entirely new ama, you could make the one you have shorter quite easily with a pull saw and some glass--say the aft 2'? You could leave that one alone and to the dump the vaka thing with a safety ama/hiking plank side tuned to your volume--but on the other side Ama over the top recovery from turtle. Making a couple holes for the iako lashing is simplicity itself and adding a brace is not hard for a guy that can build iakos!

You could also move the front iako aft a bit as you have lots of space up there to swing a paddle. Space it out on the vaka without lashing anything up and see where it would work.

Dan

[wtarzia]

... Distance between iakos is 10' 6". ...I'm thinking about moving the iakos closer together when I do that - to approximate the spec'd distance of 7'10" ...

--- Would it be simpler to cantilever your hiking seat from a reinforced gunwale position on the opposite gunwale? (instead of setting seat down on pola and gunwale) But of course, having a pola for those times when you need to desperately reach out to steady yourself can be a useful thing. It sucks falling between ama and vaka. --Wade

[Dan St Gean]

[QUOTE=wtarzia;3376471]--- Would it be simpler to cantilever your hiking seat from a reinforced gunwale position on the opposite gunwale? (instead of setting seat down on pola and gunwale) But of course, having a pola for those times when you need to desperately reach out to steady yourself can be a useful thing. It sucks falling between ama and vaka. --Wade[/QUOTE

For sure. Adding a short mini iako is tons easier and would split the span to roughly 5'. A mini iako and a couple holes in the vaka--voila!

[PeteCress]

It's finally sunk in that the spec includes a fore stay.

Now I'm obsessing about it's function.

- Increasing the stress needed to break the mast?

- Preventing the boom from doing a 360 around the mast?

- Keeping the mast from coming out of it's socket in case of capsize?
(seems like a stretch bco inherent slop in such a long line - no
pun intended...)

Can anybody comment?

[Dan St Gean]

Unless you choose to follow the design spiral back up the load path, you will likely be fine without it. One of the reasons for the line to the bow was to be able to use a full height windsurfing mast while being able to snug it up to the stub mast. Watch Kiko's video above to see how he does it. In fact some of those boats use a stayed stubmast with sidestays going to the front iako and bow for the three attachment points. Are you going to sail much in 20+? If so, go ahead and stay the stub mast. Are you using a stub mast? Do you have enough length using your current rig or do you need more by deck stepping the mast?

On a freestanding mast the biggest loads are the ones at the partners. On a stayed mast you will be blending the functions since the stub mast is stayed and is mostly experiencing a downward load while the mast carrying sail is now supported much further apart=stronger for a given mast section. Gary has two designs for that boat. The stock 18' Ulua has a ring frame and two holes for the rig to plunk into. The other is the stub mast rig. Which do you want to use?

Dan

[PeteCress]

Are you going to sail much in 20+? If so, go ahead and stay the stub mast. Are you using a stub mast? Do you have enough length using your current rig or do you need more by deck stepping the mast?

Gary has two designs for that boat. The stock 18' Ulua has a ring frame and two holes for the rig to plunk into. The other is the stub mast rig. Which do you want to use?

Right now, I'm using an unstayed 16' windsurfer mast - mainly because I couldn't figure out the mechanics of a stubby with boom rotated straight downwind. Yeah, you're not supposed to do that.....

But stuff happens. Visualizing the stock "Y" interface between mast and boom, my mind's eye sees Bad Things happening when that boom tries to do a 360 around the mast with a 14-foot lever arm against the stubby. Maybe that's part of the reason for Captain Kiko's side stays. OTOH, maybe my mind's eye is wrong and it's not a problem.

OTOOH, I'm getting a vague notion that maybe a variation on the Sunfish's rig would do the trick.


Eventually, I want to go to the stubby setup for a few reasons:

• Stepping/unstepping the mast/boom in heavy air is problematic even with it brailed. Found that out yesterday when a little rain squall came through and the wind was blowing 23-25 mph for about 15 minutes (according to iWindsurf...). The brailed sail was flogging badly but I couldn't unstep it or wrap/tie it... so I wound up tipping the whole rig over on it's side (on the beach) until the squall passed.
  .
• If it's gusting high enough, I find that even with the sail brailed things are less stable/controllable than I would like. I'm thinking rocks downwind and jumping into the water to hold the boat off: significantly easier without the added windage.
  .
• Coming to a bridge or causeway, I want tb able to quickly lower the rig without having to stumble around up front or pull into shore/salt marsh/greenhead flys to do the deed. Ditto after passing under same...Just raise the rig and go.
  .
• I figure that the 16' windsurfer mast that I need for the way it is now is eventually going to break. As already observed, the stubby setup can be implemented with one of the vastly-more-common 15' windsurfer masts - which are either free or really cheap around here, especially the one-pice ones. I'm even using 3 of them for my temporary pola/hiking seat.
  .
• With a stubby, the stresses look to me tb more friendly to the design of the mast - i.e. more windsurfer-like. To wit, the (halyard?) from the top of the stubby can attach to the mast at it's re-enforced portion where the booms normally attach and the thing is no longer trying to snap itself off down around the wae. OTOH, now the same stress that was on the windsurfer mast down at the wae is on the stubby. OTOOH, the stubby can be made vastly more robust...

[Dan St Gean]

Pete, you got it. Lemmie see if I've got a pic of the setup Gary uses...not yet. However, Gary shows an aluminum tube for the base although you could easily use the shaped cedar chunk you have and tie the line around the mast at typical windsurf mast height, run it through the "bee hole", to the bow, around a single block lashed or whatever at the bow and back to a cleat. The trick to making it super easy to stow is to not do what I did & use a wood cup/rounded plug for the mast base retained by a line rather than a universal joint. the universal joint works fine, but you can't put the bundle over on the iakos the way you can with the cup & line method. The Cedar stubbie will work fine for your experiment and the tapered shape doesn't look too bad really. Varnish it up or epoxy it and it would be beautiful. The canoes in the 180 Da'grees North all used some form of the stub mast rig often with what looked like aluminum tubing and peaked up Sunfish sails.

Dan

[Gary Dierking]

It's finally sunk in that the spec includes a fore stay.

Now I'm obsessing about it's function.

- Increasing the stress needed to break the mast?

- Preventing the boom from doing a 360 around the mast?

- Keeping the mast from coming out of it's socket in case of capsize?
(seems like a stretch bco inherent slop in such a long line - no
pun intended...)

Can anybody comment?

I use a forestay to improve the sail shape when close hauled. Sheeting in hard to windward bends the mast near the stay attachment and flattens the sail. It's the same theory that is used on most conventional boats that have a 3/4 or 7/8 rig.

[trefor]

I finally got around to making a sail for my 16' Wa'apa last night. I can't quite afford a pro made one at the moment, so the tarp sail will have to do for now. I hope to get all the rigging worked out in the next week and then get it registered with the local authorities in order to hit the lakes with it in a couple of weeks.

I have had the boat out paddling three times, so I know it keeps the water out and moves nicely enough. The most recent being about three weeks ago, when I took my wife and three-year-old daughter out for a couple of hours. They both had fun. My daughter alternated between "helping me paddle" with a paddle I lashed to a crossbeam for easy retrieval and trailing a hookless lure from her SpongeBob fishing pole.

So, hopefully very soon, I'll have some splash pics up of me sailing my outrigger. Along with the skin-on-frame kayak I'm just about done with.

Trevor

[Gary Dierking]

Building a proa the hard way. The best video I've seen on building a traditional dugout.

[Dan St Gean]

Gary,

I watched that all the way through with my 5 year old daughter. Fantastic! She said she wants to see it again.

Dan

[PeteCress]

Building a proa the hard way. The best video I've seen on building a traditional dugout.

I'm looking forward to the "..larger documentary in pre-production" mentioned in the other clip - the short one where they interview the old guy (http://vimeo.com/35310740).

One thing struck me: they did not seem tb pulling those lashings all that tight. Snug, maybe, but not *tight* - as in white marks on hands from pulling. More like just a thumb to hold it in place while the next wrap is taken.

Does the stuff shrink? Or maybe some post-wrapping-over-the-wrapping tightens it up?

[Learning to Fly]

This is the best tacking outrigger forum I have found, I know the name of the forum but I would like to discuss building a glass/foam Ulua, (I have Gary Dierking’s book). Preferred method would be the Kelsall KISS method. Why fiberglass not wood, I live in the tropics, rare to have a wooden boat here, they have a short lifespan.

If I can’t discuss this here can someone suggest an alternative glass outrigger forum.

Have a background of racing and beach camping highperformance beach cats one of my trips can be found here:
http://catsailor.net/forums/showthread.php?4190-Taipan-4-9-Whitsunday-Islands-Cruise

I would like to get away from a beach cat for camping because:
-twin trapeze when off shore is too risky in big conditions (orslow and more difficult to control when sitting on the hull)
-my cat when capsized in above 20kts winds drifts faster than you can swim (tramp makes a good sail)
-when fully loaded with camping gear you have to have mechanical sympathy as a lightweight racing cat is beyond its design brief. Now I have a young child occasionally travelling with me I need to reduce the risk.

A tacking outrigger seems to fit the bill because
-can be built to handle stores
-if 25 -30ft long with sufficient sail should have decent performance
-I like the idea of gaining waterline length but still light enough to drag up the beach every night
-I like the idea of being able drop the rig and paddle it (or2hp outboard)

This seems to me to be ideal:
http://www.holopunicanoes.com/oc3s.html
This OC3 looks like fun, catchy video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoqVAVPzmU

These are too far away and freight would be a nightmare, any plans for similar or a Ulua in glass/foam?

[Dan St Gean]

Sadly, there are no plans for Holopuni available. However, there are plans for the Ulua which could be modified for foam strip. I think you could do a KSS Ulua, but you'd probably want to get some more specific info about shaping the ends. In a sense it is like tortured ply, but then you add the inner skin. Or you could strip it in foam. There is an excellent version of that in the Netherlands built by Martijn Nugteren. Check Gary's blog of it at http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogsp...nch-alert.html




I think I have photos somewhere. Gary'd design does indeed scale up to about 25-27' and with stronger scantlings could be larger. After all the HSCA guys are at OC-6 lengths. I really like the decking of the Holopuni. Ask Gary since he has built his Ulua in Cflex.

Dan

[PeteCress]

I would like to get away from a beach cat for camping because:
-twin trapeze when off shore is too risky in big conditions (orslow and more difficult to control when sitting on the hull)
-my cat when capsized in above 20kts winds drifts faster than you can swim (tramp makes a good sail)
-when fully loaded with camping gear you have to have mechanical sympathy as a lightweight racing cat is beyond its design brief. Now I have a young child occasionally travelling with me I need to reduce the risk.

A tacking outrigger seems to fit the bill because
-can be built to handle stores
-if 25 -30ft long with sufficient sail should have decent performance
-I like the idea of gaining waterline length but still light enough to drag up the beach every night
-I like the idea of being able drop the rig and paddle it (or2hp outboard)

This seems to me to be ideal:
http://www.holopunicanoes.com/oc3s.html
This OC3 looks like fun, catchy video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoqVAVPzmU

Have you checked out Gary's latest?

http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogspot.com/2011 - scroll down to "Monday, October 3, 2011"

I've been shaking down/refitting an Ulua since late last summer.

IMHO, there are better choices for multi people and, especially, camping.

That is not to say Ulua would be out of the question - bc Tim Anderson took one of Gary's on a multi-day island-to-island camping trip in New Zealand (http://web.media.mit.edu/~tim/pix/20...-04/_nz01.html.

But if I were going for multi-occupancy and/or camping, I'd have to look long and hard at Gary's latest: Va'a Motu.

To Wit:

• It looks to me looks to me like it offers potentially more area to move around in/on. Ulua's main hull is only 18" wide at the top and narrower down where you would stand - and it's not flat. Maybe it's just my size 15 feet... but wider would be more comfortable for me.
  .
• Although Ulua is recoverable from swamp with the right technique/tools, a decked hull with scuppers like Va'a Motu or others is immune in the first place. The image of a swamped canoe plus a wife/child in 4' chop with wind gusting to 20+ does not appeal to me. Just me, no problem.... but beyond that things start to pyramid.
  .
• Something like Va'a Motu seems more amenable to a more sophisticated rig. This could be relevant or moot - depending on one's taste/requirements.

OTOH, in Ulua's defense, if it's built carefully Ulua can be *really* light and can be about as simple as anything out there. In my book, light and simple have a lot going for them too....

In that vien, I have to wonder about shipping from New Zealand. Gary builds/sells Uluas in fiberglass and maybe he'd export. I've had a waveski shipped from New Zealand to Philadelphia PA and it wasn't all that expensive. Dealers ship 19 and 21-foot-long surf skis from Australia to the USA as a matter of day-to-day business.

If NZ is out of the question, there's KailuaKanu in Hawaii that makes a sixteen-footer in FG. It's about 20 pounds heavier than Gary's, but looks like it's built pretty solidly.

What's the "tropics" issue with wood? If it is just teredo worms, the fiberglass encapsulation addresses that. My Malibu Outrigger in Hawaii had no problem except for the one place I forgot to glass: the inside of the daggarboard trunk, and once I replaced/glassed it all was well for the several years it was moored inside the reef off the Outrigger Canoe Club.

[DavePont]

The Va'a Motu is a good suggestion. And I've seen an Ulua I think built by a lady in the USA? that had more built-in bouyancy. The enclosed ends were longer? and there was a floor through the cockpit, possibly high enough for self bailing?

Maybe it's just my size 15 feet... but wider would be more comfortable for me

Pete, you could copy my 'floorboards', they work brilliantly. I took a pool noodle cut in half lengthways, then cut the resulting semicircular noodles into 2' lengths. Then cut 2' long strips of 6mm ply, about 5" wide? and glued the flat side of the noodle to underside of ply pieces. These lie nicely in the keel, noodle side down making a narrow but useful floor. I've thought of using some dots or strips of adhesive velcro to fasten them so thay don't go astray if I capsize.

Not that there is much to see, but they are in the pic in this earlier post:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...79#post3364779

cheers Dave

[BobBill]

Right now, I'm using an unstayed 16' windsurfer mast - mainly because I couldn't figure out the mechanics of a stubby with boom rotated straight downwind. Yeah, you're not supposed to do that.....

But stuff happens. Visualizing the stock "Y" interface between mast and boom, my mind's eye sees Bad Things happening when that boom tries to do a 360 around the mast with a 14-foot lever arm against the stubby. Maybe that's part of the reason for Captain Kiko's side stays. OTOH, maybe my mind's eye is wrong and it's not a problem.

OTOOH, I'm getting a vague notion that maybe a variation on the Sunfish's rig would do the trick.


Eventually, I want to go to the stubby setup for a few reasons:

• Stepping/unstepping the mast/boom in heavy air is problematic even with it brailed. Found that out yesterday when a little rain squall came through and the wind was blowing 23-25 mph for about 15 minutes (according to iWindsurf...). The brailed sail was flogging badly but I couldn't unstep it or wrap/tie it... so I wound up tipping the whole rig over on it's side (on the beach) until the squall passed.
  .
• If it's gusting high enough, I find that even with the sail brailed things are less stable/controllable than I would like. I'm thinking rocks downwind and jumping into the water to hold the boat off: significantly easier without the added windage.
  .
• Coming to a bridge or causeway, I want tb able to quickly lower the rig without having to stumble around up front or pull into shore/salt marsh/greenhead flys to do the deed. Ditto after passing under same...Just raise the rig and go.
  .
• I figure that the 16' windsurfer mast that I need for the way it is now is eventually going to break. As already observed, the stubby setup can be implemented with one of the vastly-more-common 15' windsurfer masts - which are either free or really cheap around here, especially the one-pice ones. I'm even using 3 of them for my temporary pola/hiking seat.
  .
• With a stubby, the stresses look to me tb more friendly to the design of the mast - i.e. more windsurfer-like. To wit, the (halyard?) from the top of the stubby can attach to the mast at it's re-enforced portion where the booms normally attach and the thing is no longer trying to snap itself off down around the wae. OTOH, now the same stress that was on the windsurfer mast down at the wae is on the stubby. OTOOH, the stubby can be made vastly more robust...

I have been wondering about the above...why not simply go to a rotating stubby and use, say, the bottom section of aluminum Force 5 mast or similar rig?

I like stubbies for all the reasons noted and then some...plain simple is best reason, but fully rotating seems the best option all the way round.

I mean, the lifting halyard for the yard can be easily routed to a bow block and aft to control point. Or, it can be retracted and cleated on the stuffy if shifty conditions were threatening. Even a 360 would really not be a problem, it seems to me...if that ever happened.

Last question. Why not simply drop the yard instead of brailing? If a light spar what could be easier?

And, why not a downwind full run, in either case, with some care of course?

[wtarzia]

Outriggery progress report (or rather slow progress) for the new sailing season. Low-res photos of the new main sail I will try out. And the usual Victorian reticulations not for the impatient.
http://tristramshandy21st.blogspot.c...rror-lazy.html
--Wade

[PeteCress]

..why not simply go to a rotating stubby and use, say, the bottom section of aluminum Force 5 mast or similar rig?

I like the sound of it, but can't find any pix to explain the implementation. How is your Malibu Outrigger coming along? I gave up trying to upload pix to this forum. Instead I opened up a freebie Picassa account and just post links to pix I've uploaded to there.

Last question. Why not simply drop the yard instead of brailing? If a light spar what could be easier?

I would agree 100% - but right now I don't have a yard, just a cut-down 16' windsurfer mast stuffed in to a hole in the deck.

When stepping/unstepping the current mast, the boom needs tb against the mast for controllability. CB done without the brailing line, but with the line it's easeir. Also, not being able to drop the yard, I want some way to kill the power quickly without having to clock the boat into the wind.

[Dan St Gean]

I like the sound of it, but can't find any pix to explain the implementation. How is your Malibu Outrigger coming along? I gave up trying to upload pix to this forum. Instead I opened up a freebie Picassa account and just post links to pix I've uploaded to there.



I would agree 100% - but right now I don't have a yard, just a cut-down 16' windsurfer mast stuffed in to a hole in the deck.

When stepping/unstepping the current mast, the boom needs tb against the mast for controllability. CB done without the brailing line, but with the line it's easeir. Also, not being able to drop the yard, I want some way to kill the power quickly without having to clock the boat into the wind.

Use the stubby you have. Make Gary's cup/line windsurf base either deck mounted (or iako). Your yard will be vertical against the stubbie either lashed to it or even better lashed to the windsurfing mast, passing through the dumb sheave, leading to a bow mounted block, and back to a cleat on the iako or mast base area. Your boom would have a jaws fitted that goes around the main mast just over halfway, or could even be a full ring like a butterfly ow whatever. Depowering downwind is as simple as easing the sheet since it (if you have enough sheet) will be able to stream right over the bow or very nearly that far. Brailing is nice too though. Have you emailed Kiko? He's been helpful in the past for me. The nice thing about the stubbie is you can drop all sail bungie the whole mess outboard of the pola and have a pretty clean paddle without having to try and unstep anything.

[bwd]

Re: kites, and boats attached to kites
Honestly, to say everyone has a story like Eric or Kevin (seen in the youtube videos linked above) is misleading.
Not to discount anyone's experience, but kiting has come a long way in the last decade, and what used to happen unpredictably due to lack of knowledge and unrefined equipment, happens rarely now. Advancing general knowledge in the sport and better athlete education, combined with refined safer kite and control system design, have helped make such accidents a rarity.
Now and then someone foolish enough to go out in a storm will "pull a Kevin," but this is uncommon.
The sport is maturing, and not as "extreme" as it once was.
Efforts continue to refine power kites to pull boats, with some success.
Check project.kiteboat.com to see some serious efforts by a professional kite designer at high performance sailing with a kite.
I think a more reasonably-sized kite would be a great addition to an outrigger canoe for fast reaching.
Preferably a rightable, easily steered outrigger.

[PeteCress]

Depowering downwind is as simple as easing the sheet since it (if you have enough sheet) will be able to stream right over the bow or very nearly that far.

Early in the game, when I tried it on dry land, it seemed like it would rotate so far, but then the mast/boom connection would come up against the stubby and the boom's leverage became dedicated to prying the y-connector on the boom apart like the wishbone on a chicken or just snapping the y-connector off where it goes in to the boom.

I've got tb missing something bc so many people seem tb doing this. But what?

Width of the y-connector?

[PeteCress]

Re: kites, and boats attached to kites

Honestly, to say everyone has a story like Eric or Kevin (seen in the youtube videos linked above) is misleading.
Not to discount anyone's experience, but kiting has come a long way in the last decade, and what used to...

I do not know from "everyone", but all the kiters I know (maybe a dozen) have a story; every single one of them. The stories are not as extreme as shown in the links, but every one of them could have resulted in death or serious injury.

The salient fact that I pick up on is that these things seem to happen to fully-competant kiters that are doing everything correctly.

It's not like they're dropping left-and-right. In fact, incidents seem tb rare - but not so rare that everybody doesn't have one sooner or later. I think of it as "The Russian Roulette Factor" - and if I can't afford to lose, I don't play the game.

Stuff happens. A few samples from guys I know:

• Getting dragged upright across a bar and nearly amputating a toe on something sharp in the sand,
  .
• Getting lofted and set down on a pile of concrete/rebar (that guy *still* limps after 5+ years),
  .
• Wiping out in the impact zone and surfacing to find the kite downwind and one of the lines wrapped around one's neck (no injury there - but if the kite had caught a gust.....),
  .
• Getting lofted 30-or-so feet with a concrete hotel building twice that height no more than 100 feet downwind and a parking lot full of cars about 25 feet downwind - between the beach and the hotel (watched that one firsthand - during a kiting contest where I windsurf),
  .
• Just waking up in the brush all beat up with no idea at all how one got there....
  

Stuff really does happen... maybe not that often, but it's qualitatively different from windsurfing or sailing because it *does* happen to the best.

But that's kite surfers - whose bodies are hooked in to the kite.

A kite on a canoe or kayak is, IMHO, a very different situation as long as the person is not connected to the kite.

[wtarzia]

What kind and size of cost effective and down-wind-effective kite would have a good experiment? So big as to be crazt, not so small as to not be worth the effort? --Wade

[Dan St Gean]

What kind and size of cost effective and down-wind-effective kite would have a good experiment? So big as to be crazt, not so small as to not be worth the effort? --Wade

That depends entirely on the wind strength in which you want to try it out. Flying kites in really light air is a pain--especially downwind. Maybe pick an average condition you like to sail in and find a water launchable kite that is sized for that wind strength. It'll be underpowered, which is good, for a boat vs. a kitesurfer. You should ask Dave Culp that same question--his answer would be lots more specific AND backed by experience rather than seat of the pants guess.

Dan

[PeteCress]

You should ask Dave Culp that same question

+1.

There are also the techniques of launching, controlling, and landing a kite. These need tb learned from somebody who knows what they are doing because there are safety considerations around these operations - both for the kiter and those in the vicinity.

Kiters where I windsurf are unhappy when some guy who obvously has not had any lessons shows up and starts flying a kite.

[bwd]

Agreed, if you don't get that

better athlete education

accidents will go from a possibility, to guaranteed.
Think of it as more like like learning to fly a plane, than ride a bicycle....

[wtarzia]

...Kiters where I windsurf are unhappy when some guy who obvously has not had any lessons shows up and starts flying a kite.

--- I never saw a kite flown where I sail, so no social difficulties in that direction. Sounds as though just sailing downwind with what you have, or with a chute, is far easier, because with the wind going well enough to launch a kite, your boat is going just fine. Of course you get better wind up high, but if your boat is already going down wind, not so much more to be done if you are limited by hull speed? Unless you can plane. The advantage for me would be setting something without a pitching moment, because a narrow hull pushes down already with a big sail downwind. I have pages and pages of information from Dave Culp back when we were talking about my science fiction novel set in the near future aboard kiteships; I will have to check again, but most of the conversations were about huge stuff on two-thousand foot tow cables :-) -- Wade

[PeteCress]

Think of it as more like like learning to fly a plane, than ride a bicycle....

I like the analogy.

[Dan St Gean]

Pete,

I was thumbing through Gary's Building Sailing Outrigger Canoes again and saw two illustrations that might help the stub mast rig-- one was the wooden base/socket and the other is a profile view of the canoe. There's a third view of a possible mast base as well. The page #'s are 53, 56, & 57.

Dan

[PeteCress]

I was thumbing through Gary's Building Sailing Outrigger Canoes again and saw two illustrations that might help the stub mast rig-- one was the wooden base/socket and the other is a profile view of the canoe. There's a third view of a possible mast base as well. The page #'s are 53, 56, & 57.

The idea of attaching to the iako doesn't appeal bco setup time, but I think I've conceptualized something that should work.

Basically, it's a variation on the Sunfish gooseneck where a ring goes around the stub , the mast is clamped to the ring, and the boom is attached to the mast via a flexible connection - as per http://tinyurl.com/6uf4gfg and http://tinyurl.com/6st83fd

I'm pretty sure this can be executed using only Marlowe pre-stretch line. Gotta track down a shorter windsurfing mast to try it. At the same time, maybe I'll use one of the pieces of bamboo I have drying out in the back yard as the boom.

[Dan St Gean]

The idea of attaching to the iako doesn't appeal bco setup time, but I think I've conceptualized something that should work.

Basically, it's a variation on the Sunfish gooseneck where a ring goes around the stub , the mast is clamped to the ring, and the boom is attached to the mast via a flexible connection - as per http://tinyurl.com/6uf4gfg and http://tinyurl.com/6st83fd

I'm pretty sure this can be executed using only Marlowe pre-stretch line. Gotta track down a shorter windsurfing mast to try it. At the same time, maybe I'll use one of the pieces of bamboo I have drying out in the back yard as the boom.

I think you're on the right track there. The Malibu outrigger setup is even better perhaps as you were investigating last October. Check out this image and see how easy it would be to build or adapt something like it. I know it's a repeat of your thread where you werwe asking about the rig, but you could easily modify the stub msat rig with a shoulder on which the yard rests like the MO. The boom could be a regular dingy boom jaws. The whole rig could rotate in the freestanding stub msat portion.

To do it with what you have already, epoxy and glass/carbon a block on the stubbie. Add a windsurfing universal joint or the illustration from Gary's book for the yard base. You could then use a dingy boom fitting wrapping around the block just like the picture. I'm not sure how that solves your desire to be able to stow the rig and proceed under paddle--unless the windsurfing universal joint is a cup and ball affair & the dingy boom is a pin setup that can just slip out. One nice thing about using the stubbie is it's stronger than a windsurfing mast and of course you could use the extra length of standard windsurfing spars to better advantage.

[PeteCress]

The Malibu outrigger setup...

Where did you find that pic? It's got tb recent bco the rez.[/quote]

I'm not sure how that solves your desire to be able to stow the rig and proceed under paddle....

After a series of near-injury to my shoulders from canoe-style paddling I've kind of given up on using it for exercise-type paddling.

Consequently I don't care about stowing so much as reducing the height enough to go under a causeway - and that setup will do it.

Also, just dropping the rig and letting it lay across the port side of the iakos would probably leave room for paddling - at least at the helmsman's seat.

[Dan St Gean]

I found it on google of course! Actually, Todd Bradshaw linked it in your Malibu outrigger thread. I don't know where the regristration is from, but '03 is sorta recent by MO standards. Tim Anderson has this MO racing link on his page http://www.mit.edu/people/robot/malibu/index.html

Dan

[trefor]

I finally got my Wa'apa on the water with a sail on it. Unfortunately, the wind completely died off once I got the thing put together. I pushed off anyway, sculled and paddled a bit till enough wind popped up to ghost around some. I'm really gonna like this boat. It moves in the slightest breeze, I can only imagine how it'll behave in a decent wind.

I have this coming Friday off work and intend to sail most of the day, if the weather is on my side. I'll have a better report if/when I do.

-Trevor

[PeteCress]

Rigging the ama on the port side is strictly tradition/convention - no functional reason, right?

[trefor]

On mine, it just seemed right. Probably because I've got a tattered copy of Gary's book (bought new) that I've been staring at for over a year and a half and all of his boats appear to be rigged that way.

-Trevor

[Gary Dierking]

Rigging the ama on the port side is strictly tradition/convention - no functional reason, right?

It is traditional in most island groups, but yet you will see canoes with the ama to starboard. The original reason is probably lost in antiquity. I don't know of any practical reason but better safe than sorry in case you piss off Tangaroa.