The outrigger and proa thread

[edvb]

Dan

One other thing to consider. My boat all up weighs about 160 Lbs.
That is about the limit I would want and be able to move it around easy enough. Anything heavier than that defeats the purpose of what you are trying to do if going solo. Just my thought on that.

[DavePont]

Hi Ed,

This might work and if it does it will save some of you some time if you decide to go the rolling furling route.
The fiberglass pultruded rods are tough,light and have no problem rolling around the mast like a barber's pole.

Thanks for the info, I am interested in roller furling. I'm thinking about a winter project: a solo trimaran, based on a ply SOT kayak - think Hobie Adventure Island like Dan mentioned. In my case the AI is very much what I'd like to emulate - but DIY for a much lower cost. I'd like the trimaran and sail rig to be add-ons, still allowing use of the SOT as a kayak.

My mind turns first to options re leeboard and rudders.

Daggerboard is just not an option for me. The CLC SailRig attaches a leeboard to the front crossbeam - a bit off ideal location. And a leeboard on a kayak is very likely to be in the way for paddling. Rudders tend to be oversized kayak style stern mounted.

I'm thinking keep leeboards (or equivalent) and rudder as part of the trimaran add-on. So this leads me to thinking can I dispense with leeboard and resist leeway with asymmetrical amas (a la Hobie hulls), and can I put a low aspect rudder on each ama? Here is a rough edit of an image:



The ama would have a flat side to outside (asymmetrical). Rudder hinged off rear end of ama. Bottom edge of rudder and (optional?) keel at rear half of ama no lower than lowest point on ama. Short tiller on top of rudder connects to catamaran style tiller bar, ie this connects the two rudders. Should be easy to hook up foot pedals with lines to the tiller bar.

Assymetric amas are presumably much less efficient than a higher aspect leeboard. And low aspect rudders - ditto. But will it be good enough for fun sailing? given that it requires minimal modifications to the kayak hull? I also see if the keel/rudders are a complete failure I could just cut them off!

Any comments anyone?

Here is a mash-up image which blends Triak, Hobie AI and CLC SIS - yeah something like that!




cheers Dave

[edvb]

Why would a daggerboard not work? My setup works fine and if you are building a boat it would be easy to add a daggerboard case as part of the design.

[DavePont]

Why would a daggerboard not work? My setup works fine and if you are building a boat it would be easy to add a daggerboard case as part of the design.

Hi Ed,
having said "not an option" to daggerboard actually at this stage anything is on the table. I'm interested in day sailing, an option to paddle when needed, lightweight and easy setup, maybe a bit of fishing, lakes and near-shore briny.

I see daggerboard as a choice if I was focused on sailing, and maximum performance. The cons I see are: another thing to build, maintain and operate; something else to worry about when beaching; will it foul the sail when retracted (I'm a ditz sailor); where do I put it when removed; another thing to pack away for cartopping; more weight from the foil and its case; using up prime cockpit real estate.
The latter is a reasonably big downer for the fishing scenario. The more I think about my integrated leeboard/rudder in-the-amas the more I like it, from a less-is-more, lightweight, simple view. But am I trading away too much performance? A lightweight tri should have a good power to weight, but I'm going to lose on windward ability (no leeboard/daggerboard) and tacking ability (teeny rudder). Is that bad enough to make the thing a dog??

I'm likely to build in a narrow centre console for storage in the cockpit, between the legs, going from gunwale level down to keel level. With a bit of forethought I suppose I could make that with a view to retrospectively modding as a daggerboard case! Gee, if I was really clever it could be a removable insert: storage or daggerboard... Hobie drive!

regards, Dave

[edvb]

Dave I see where you are coming from. I guess I am the opposite. I have sailed quite a bit before getting my Raptor. My first boat was a Supercat 15 so I started in multihulls. Now I strive for the ultimate performance but along the way I am learning to paddle more. The good thing is I can paddle sail and gain a solid 2.5 knots doing so. It is great on those lazy days and still maintaining 4 to 6 knots or so. I love speed so it is hard for me to even go out, if I am not doing at least 6 knots or so. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Once you learn to sail you would probably kick yourself for not installing that case. It is pretty cheap to add and you only need to bring your daggerboard along when you want to sail and not just paddle down a river. It is cheap and will give you the best performance per buck spent. Just my thoughts on the subject.

[Dan St Gean]

Dave,

Something to think about...Richard Woods is thinking of adding low aspect ratio keels to the bottom of his amas on his new 15' tri design Strike. It's about the perfect solution if you are going to use a production type hull that you don't want to modify much like the daggerboard scenario. It's good enough that the Little Wing tri by Ted Warren chose that route for his carbon beauty. If you want to go bigger/ more powerful, the fertile mind of Michael Schacht came up with almost exactly what you are thinking of doing...http://proafile.com/archive/article/....5_transporter with a traditional kayak--but it could just as easily be a sit on top. By seperating the functions of the kayak and cat, you are about set to go!



dan

[edvb]

Dan

Yea, I like that design! But you cannot raise the daggerboard as fast as in the main hull when running shallow. Overall from what Dave wanted this would be perfect. What do you think Dave?

[Dan St Gean]

There were two ideas there, but I didn't link the pic for the first LAR keel idea.


Dan

[edvb]

Dave

Do you have the main hull and if so what is it?

[DavePont]

Do you have the main hull and if so what is it?

Wow some great ideas thanks Ed and Dan.

I love the idea of the Scacht Transporter, but a bit big for me to cartop.

I plan to build the main hull, a ply stitch and glue SOT, that way I can add stuff, and I enjoy building. But a design that minimises mods to the main hull might allow me to buy a plastic SOT as start point? Now I think about it I can probably can buy for same money as build, and thus much quicker towards the goal! Still plenty of enjoyable building to be done in amas, akas, DIY rig etc.

The Little Wing is very interesting: low aspect keels and a low aspect rudder. A quick look at a video and it seemed to go fine to windward and turns on a dime! I'm borrowing both of those ideas. And it seems to show no need for weird asymmetrical amas.

The only ply SOT options I've found are the CLC Sea Island Sport and JEM Watercraft does a few different models. I'm liking the CLC SIS but probably add a well behind the cockpit. CLC also does a Sail Rig Kit: amas, akas, rig. See pics below.


CLC SIS


JEM Wadefish 15


CLC Sail Rig

[Dan St Gean]

You should also look at some of the Everglades challenge class 3 boats including Chris O's take on the kruger with his XCR. It's more canoe like than sit on top, but the couple from MI that finished used inflatable amas. How's that for cartoppable? Wade also has a pair of inflatable amas--different ones than the XCR but still very cool!

Dan

Dan

[wtarzia]

You should also look at some of the Everglades challenge class 3 boats including Chris O's take on the kruger with his XCR. It's more canoe like than sit on top, but the couple from MI that finished used inflatable amas. How's that for cartoppable? Wade also has a pair of inflatable amas--different ones than the XCR but still very cool! ...

--- The XCR is a fascinating hull, very roomy inside. I enjoyed watching their videos (which do not suffer at all from the fantasy-vision-made-real of having a mate who is also a good sailing adventure buddy :-). I wish I had a chance to study it more closely on the beach when I was there last year. The thing that most struck me about this year's EC aside from the weather and disasters was the adaptability of small outrigger craft. The XCR converted from a double to single outrigger for some swamp paddling, right now in the Ultimate Florida Challenge one guy has converted his outrigger kayak to a pure kayak (though his stub mast and center aka beam is left on) for the long river journey. Even the big-ish trimaran Mosquito is a decent-enough paddling machine as measured against its fine ability as a fast sailer. The Hobie outrigger-kayaks despite their commercial ubiquity,plastic-ness, and wetness have also hit very close to the mark for dependable constant performance. --Wade

[PeteCress]

Tried my steering oar out today at the local mud hole.

I'd call it an unqualified success.

Blade needs some beautification: right now it looks more like a cricket bat or some sort of fraternity initiation weapon than anything else; but it works.

Instead of a notch, I was using a box assembly as in http://johnrollit.com/Ulua/Ulua17, but I think I'll go to a simple notch for the next iteration. Might go back to the box if/when I try to make a self-steering setup for paddling - but for now, the box seems like needless complexity/bulk and I'll just lash the piece of wood with the notch in it to the iako.

I can see why most people use rudders for extended use, but in swirly, shifty, gusty, on/off winds a steering oar is looking like Da Bomb to me:
.

• No way required.
  .
• No loss of control if/when one encounters 8-inch-deep water
  .
• No worries about getting blown or thrown backwards on to the rudder
  .
• Seamless transition to sculling - although my blade doesn't really support sculling yet.
  .
• When the wind dies, then suddenly comes back from a sixty-degree different direction, no problem - just set the blade and pull the stern around.
  .
• Ditto constant 40-70 degree shifts under way: the bow can hunt as fast and as much as needed.
  .

My experience so far is that the blade needs tb rotated to several different angles in normal use. Vertical to kick the stern back-and-forth. Horizontal to sweep it across the surface when winding up to kick the stern. Something between vertical and horizontal when in "rudder" mode.

The only modification I made to the basic design was lashing a 10-inch batten to the loom at the helmsman's end - which enables me to feel the orientation of the blade and adds some hand-friendliness by virtue of the serving.

[wtarzia]

...The only modification I made to the basic design was lashing a 10-inch batten to the loom at the helmsman's end - which enables me to feel the orientation of the blade and adds some hand-friendliness by virtue of the serving.

--- I wonder if a handle at right angles to the blade, as a permanent fixture, would be a good idea? As you say, it would indicate the orientation of the blade, it would help with sculling (one hand on loom is the horsepower, one hand on handle rotates the blade for the horizontal strokes), and in a pinch the handle acts as a boathook. I installed a permanent handle-projection on my short canoe-paddle back when I used it as an as-needed down-wind quarter rudder for my old crab-claw proa, and it was useful, and yes, I used the handle to snag a dropped sheet once or twice. (This paddle appears in several photos (somewhere) and videos where it is usually in its mounts on the aka-side-seat.) -- Wade

[OconeePirate]

Woo hoo! I received three gallons of epoxy in the mail yesterday!

[PeteCress]

...a handle at right angles to the blade, as a permanent fixture, would be a good idea? As you say, it would indicate the orientation of the blade, it would help with sculling (one hand on loom is the horsepower, one hand on handle rotates the blade for the horizontal strokes), and in a pinch the handle acts as a boathook. I installed a permanent handle-projection on my short canoe-paddle back when I used it as an as-needed down-wind quarter rudder for my old crab-claw proa, and it was useful, and yes, I used the handle to snag a dropped sheet once or twice. (This paddle appears in several photos (somewhere) and videos where it is usually in its mounts on the aka-side-seat.) -- Wade

Sounds like a winner to me. Also, when just steering, it's one more available hand position.

[Shan Skailyn]

Just found out I get to have a lesson in sailing (weather permitting) up in Bremerton, WA sometime this weekend! My family pooled some $ to fly me up to SF to visit my brother for my recent b-day. He works for the airlines and so we're going to use his benefits to fly up to Seattle and visit my uncle who sails. He's been following the construction of Shan Skailyn, and he also knows I have no experience sailing. So he's arranged to get me out on the water for at least a few hours during our short visit. Yeah!!!! Will borrow my father's go-pro cam to take with me so I can post video clips.

[edvb]

Hi All

I just hoisted my sail after modifications. For the top batten I ended up using one full length 3/16" batten with another shorter batten next to it that goes down to the second draft stripe on the sail. This combo is used as the top batten as the 3/8" was to thick for it to reef properly. What do you all think? I am going to try and sail tomorrow if it warms up enough.

[PeteCress]

First day of "sea" trials for Ulua.... Actually "Bay" trials, but at least it was the right kind of water and some decent wind.

One thing I'm lusting after is a reliable-release jam cleat for the main sheet.

I've got a fiddle block with built-in jam cleat and it's a thing of beauty... but the angle of the cleat is wrong for reliable release when it's mounted between the fore wae and the foremost block on the boom.

When I look at Gary's photos, as in http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/uluabk1.jpg, it looks like if there's a jam cleat in the system it's someplace else.

So... if you have a jam cleat - and run your sheet using Gary's system of running the sheet from the back of the vaka, up along the boom, down to a pully on the wae, and then to the steersman's hand - where do you put the jam cleat?

FWIW, I'm partial to that routing both just because that's the way Gary does it... and because it supplies downhaul as needed with no additional parts.

[wtarzia]

...One thing I'm lusting after is a reliable-release jam cleat for the main sheet.
...

--- Glad you got out! I cleat my main sheet on a cam-cleat without a lead on it. It comes out easily. I keep the sheet in my hand or lap depending on conditions, but I find that even a small sail and 2:1 sheet is tiring to hold after a while. If the wind is over 15 knots I'm very careful with that sheet, and much over that I will not cleat it, though even the the tiny sail up in SCA conditions destroyrs my hand. I really need to make a turning post as Gary uses. I have one on my mizzen sheet, right in front of its cam cleat, but the mizzen can stay safely cleated.

I messed up once so far on a cleated main sheet -- I was using the big (for Short Dragon) balanced lug, and the boat started to be knocked down. I had forgotten I had cleated the sheet (I had promsied myself I wouldn't, but LOTS of force with the big lug), and I we were going over, I let go the tiller and climbed over the gunwale to lean on the ama -- then I remembered I had no mizzen sail which is my autopilot when things get iffy. As the boat kept going over and the ama was alarmingly high, I saw that the sheet was cleated. Just as I had time to say "****" and get ready to be wet, the boat rounded up as the sail COE finally got behind the CLR. I'm not sure any lesson was learned because I usually cam-cleat the sheet, though I think I remember to remember that since then :-)

Between grading exams today I second-sanded and second coated the new leeboard. I have opted for an epoxy graphite coating because my leeboard takes a beating inside its rails and bearings, and white paint soon looks like crap. I left a sample of this coating over a pine board out side of my house in sun, rain, and ice for almost two years now, and it was endured well despite the usual fears of the blackened epoxy softening in the heat of the day. I figure that a water-cooled leeboard stored out of the weather when not sailing will do OK. I'll let you know if it doesn't! -- Wade

[PeteCress]

...a turning post as Gary uses. I have one on my mizzen sheet, right in front of its cam cleat, but the mizzen can stay safely cleated.

I'm not getting any meaningful hits on "Turning Post".

From context, I'm guessing it's an alternative to a jam cleat.

Got a Pic?

[Dan St Gean]

Think dorknob. It's wider on top than on botom. To get the reduced pressure on your hands, take a turn around the post--hence the name. It's a winch without the ability to crank it in.

Dan

[DavePont]

Think doorknob. Dan

I think there might be a pic amongst Gary's blog images of his setup? - his last Tamanu / Va'a Fiji?

Hah - found it:
http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogsp...ail-power.html




True to my lo-no-cost ethic a doorknob is exactly what I used on my waka! It just shows in the pic posted earlier showing my equally primitive 'foot pedals'. Look middle, bottom edge of image below. That is a good old pine drawer knob. I don't think I even bought it, but rescued it from a set of drawers headed for oblivion! Drilled and screwed down to the gunwale with 2 stainless screws, which thus cost more than the 'turning post' - LOL. I actually have one each side of the hull, but 99% of the time use the starboard one, the port one just gets in the way when I want to slide my hiking seat forward - it will probably be removed sometime soon.

This knob is a pretty snug fit for my 6mm braided sheet, a slightly bigger one might be better, one full turn slightly overlapped is just about like a jam cleat - which is often handy - but can be risky too (I VERY nearly capsized last weekend...)!



In Gary's book the sheet run you describe ends with a jam cleat under the back edge of the front seat. You can't quite see it in the pic above, but I installed a large screw in eye (1 1/2" eye?, galv) in that location to meet a similar purpose. I imagined threading the sheet through the eye. Pulling the rope in any direction but straight through should give some friction, like the turning post (but probably a bit too hard on the sheet). Let go and it should be able to run out quite freely. Anyway I got sidetracked with other sheeting arrangements and never used it, my stick-on-a-string foot steering clips to it with a small carabiner (red, visible in image above).

cheers, Dave

[DavePont]

Hi All
I just hoisted my sail after modifications. For the top batten I ended up using one full length 3/16" batten with another shorter batten next to it that goes down to the second draft stripe on the sail. This combo is used as the top batten as the 3/8" was to thick for it to reef properly. What do you all think? I am going to try and sail tomorrow if it warms up enough.

Hi Ed, that is one heck of a sail! Clever solution to use two narrow battens. Not that I know anything about sails, but the back end of the square top does not appear to be sagging like it was in your earlier pic. Keep us posted on results.

PS I've found a manufacturer of pultruded rod in NZ. They seem to have a lot of agricultural applications so I might have to check the local shops supplying the farming community. Otherwise I think I might have difficulty getting 4m lengths shipped! Gary posted a link to a Holopuni sailing video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoqVAVPzmU

It looks very much like they have vertical (ish) battens on their loose-foot oceanic lateen rig (which is what I have a rough copy of), so I'm even more motivated to get some of this pultruded stuff.

regards, Dave

[Gary Dierking]

So... if you have a jam cleat - and run your sheet using Gary's system of running the sheet from the back of the vaka, up along the boom, down to a pully on the wae, and then to the steersman's hand - where do you put the jam cleat?

This not ideal when hiked out and would be better on a swivel base.

[Shan Skailyn]

Anybody here heard of Greg Jacobs? I got to meet him yesterday in Silverdale, WA. Meeting and talking with him made up for the disappointment of uncooperative weather that kept me from getting my planned lesson in sailing. Greg introduced me to a completely different realm of sailing from the one I foresee myself getting involved in. He's into high speed, efficient sailing vessels and he had quite a few multihulls that he's customized both for efficiency and also accommodate his disabilities. He was telling me about using hydrofoils and kite power. He also talked a lot about the rigid foil type sails (can't remember what they're called). He seems highly knowledgeable and really into that stuff. Showed me some of the high speed (30knot) kind of stuff he appreciates so much. Amazing! Much of his customized stuff was disassembled as it's not quite the season yet to be getting out, so I didn't get any good photos. His knowledge of all the physics behind sailing and use of high technology is quite far out of reach for anything I'm doing. But it's still inspiring and I surely will be able to glean something from the ideas he shared about. Might I one day experiment with kite power on Shan Skailyn? Hmmmm.

[wtarzia]

...Might I one day experiment with kite power on Shan Skailyn? Hmmmm.

--- On the Yahoogroups "Proafile International" we have Dave Culp who is an expert in kite sailing. He had a company once that tried to make a go of it. He did designed a down-wind commercial kite for racing boats but sold that interest I think (Outleader Kites?). He still might have his www.kiteship.com site up though the company is defunct. Also, if you seaerch for kite sailing stuff on www.instructables.com (there are a few experts there) you might find something. Kites are very powerful, and when they are dunked at sea, are a pain in the butt to relaunch. But a proa/outrigger makes a good platform for one. Best start small. Maybe someone will tell you what the minimum size is for experimentation: 2 or 3 square meters? You probably will not be able to work upwind with one though. -- Wade

[PeteCress]

Might I one day experiment with kite power on Shan Skailyn? Hmmmm.

Kitsurfing was calling out to me for a couple of years. I even bought a couple of small kites and got pretty good at body dragging. When the wind got strong enough to get my body up on a plane, I knew it was time to go in and rig my windsurfer.

One thing to keep in mind about kites is that they are extremely powerful.

I once said to a guy I windsurf with that teaches kiting "Geeze, it looks like you're hooked on the bumper of a pickup truck full of drunken rednecks."

He didn't bat an eye and came back with "No, not at all. Think Greyhound bus."

Kites are 99.99 percent controllable when somebody knows what they are doing, but the other .01 percent is a problem for me. I call it "The Russian Roulette Factor." Everybody I know that kitesurfs has a story that goes something like: "I don't know what happened. I was doing everything right... but suddenly I regained conciousness over there... all beat up....".

I have no problem with hand-held kites, but as soon as one starts clipping in to a harness the Russian Roulette Factor needs tb considered.

Dunno about a hard attachment to a boat. Probably less of a problem because one can always bail out.... but I'd keep it firmly in mind that kites are not just glorified sails.

Want a few grins? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_z-Npmf4U

[Dan St Gean]

Wade,

You mentioned you ordered ply...so, watcha' buildin'?

[PeteCress]

I think there might be a pic amongst Gary's blog images of his setup? - his last Tamanu / Va'a Fiji?

Hah - found it:
http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogsp...ail-power.html




True to my lo-no-cost ethic a doorknob is exactly what I used on my waka! It just shows in the pic posted earlier showing my equally primitive 'foot pedals'. Look middle, bottom edge of image below. That is a good old pine drawer knob. I don't think I even bought it, but rescued it from a set of drawers headed for oblivion! Drilled and screwed down to the gunwale with 2 stainless screws, which thus cost more than the 'turning post' - LOL. I actually have one each side of the hull, but 99% of the time use the starboard one, the port one just gets in the way when I want to slide my hiking seat forward - it will probably be removed sometime soon.

This knob is a pretty snug fit for my 6mm braided sheet, a slightly bigger one might be better, one full turn slightly overlapped is just about like a jam cleat - which is often handy - but can be risky too (I VERY nearly capsized last weekend...)!

Sounds like trying it is a no-brainer for me because the price is right and it might do the job.

How do you "Uncleat"? Does the line have to be flipped up and around to get it off the post? Or will it run free enough to let depower the sail when you just take the tension off - i.e. let go of the sheet line.

The other end of the price scale seems tb something called a "Ratchet Block" as in http://www.murrays.com/archive/24-25.pdf

Looks elegant in it's outward simplicity. I'm guessing that, somethow, the texture of the pully snubs the line until the ratcheting mechanism is disabled by a pull. But I am also guessing it shares the same flaw with cam cleats: If you mess up the un-cleating motion or, in the case of the ratchet block, the mechanism momentarily jams; that fraction of a second does you in.

[Shan Skailyn]

Hey, I'll be in San Francisco the next few days with my brother. Anyone out there know of a great place to go to check out some sailing outriggers?

[DavePont]

Sounds like trying it is a no-brainer for me because the price is right and it might do the job.
How do you "Uncleat"? Does the line have to be flipped up and around to get it off the post? Or will it run free enough to let depower the sail when you just take the tension off - i.e. let go of the sheet line.

Hi Pete,
yes this is another brilliant idea from Gary - so simple you might almost overlook it. It works wonderfully for me.
You simply reduce tension and it will peel out in a nice controlled way. A flick can release it if lightly loaded. Works well from various seating, hiking positions. You have the option of taking 2 or more turns around the post in stronger winds, or to hold - I do this often in light conditions to let me move around, tie a new lure, find my water bottle, play a fish... but watch those gusts! In light airs I often take just a quarter or half turn around the post and then put the sheet under my foot if I need my hands free - any gust worth worrying about pretty much auto-releases. For really light-airs sail-fishing I was even putting the sheet between foot and foot pedal: look ma! no hands!
So a very versatile thing for a simple shaped piece of wood.

regards, dave

[DavePont]

You should also look at some of the Everglades challenge class 3 boats including Chris O's take on the kruger with his XCR. It's more canoe like than sit on top, but the couple from MI that finished used inflatable amas. How's that for cartoppable? Wade also has a pair of inflatable amas--different ones than the XCR but still very cool!
Dan

Hi Dan,
I have yet to follow up on the EC boats, but I am familiar with the XCR. Inflatable amas would indeed be interesting, but shipping from US could be scary price.

I'm still thinking about a trimaran kayak, chasing the very low end of weight and setup time.

Meanwhile I found the following from a google trawl. We all know about Frank Smoot and his cool site:

http://www.diy-tris.com/

but I just found what I presume is his wifes site, - an excellent DIY tri / cat history in a nutshell!

http://laura-smoot.com/

This caught my eye, along with the comment: Very fast and worked great! which encourages me :

[edvb]

Hi Ed, that is one heck of a sail! Clever solution to use two narrow battens. Not that I know anything about sails, but the back end of the square top does not appear to be sagging like it was in your earlier pic. Keep us posted on results.

PS I've found a manufacturer of pultruded rod in NZ. They seem to have a lot of agricultural applications so I might have to check the local shops supplying the farming community. Otherwise I think I might have difficulty getting 4m lengths shipped! Gary posted a link to a Holopuni sailing video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzoqVAVPzmU

It looks very much like they have vertical (ish) battens on their loose-foot oceanic lateen rig (which is what I have a rough copy of), so I'm even more motivated to get some of this pultruded stuff.

regards, Dave

Dave

You can coil even 3/8" in about a 4' to 5' diameter coil for shipping.

I got to sail yesterday but had almost zero wind. I was able to go about 1.4 knots so I still do not know how the top of the sail will work until I get some better winds and temps here in Wisconsin. It looked pretty good though so fingers crossed.

This sail has been a testbed for a lot of ideas that have worked or not. By the end of the season I will be ready to have a new one made that should work perfectly for my boat.

The vertical battens should work fine but I think slightly angled just makes for better sail shape when using a composite cloth with Kevlar or carbon strands. My next sail will be carbon I think.

For the mainsheet I like the Ronstan 55mm Auto-Ratchet with a single cleat. It has worked well for me as sudden gusts come along and I need to release instantly yet be able to hold the load for extended times when gusty.

You can see the 40mm ratchet that I replaced with the 55mm and cleat with the light blue line in this picture.

[PeteCress]

Hi Pete,
yes this is another brilliant idea from Gary - so simple you might almost overlook it. It works wonderfully for me.
...So a very versatile thing for a simple shaped piece of wood.

I just tried it with my 9mm sheet line wrapped around some 1.9" OD schedule 40 PVC that I have laying around and it seems to work - albeit with two turns instead of 1.

I would guess the texture/friction of wood offers better control but I'm going to try the PVC and see how it goes. I also tried some 1" OD 6061 T-6, but the friction was about the same. I tried roughing the PVE with corse sandpaper, but could not perceive a change in friction - so I would further guess that the shape of the wood is a player - shaped so that the line is partially compressed upon itself. Maybe wet/dry makes a diff too....

I'm going to try it upside-down - hanging from under the front seat. I'll use a PVC flange for connection under the seat, and maybe another flange trimmed to smaller diameter to keep the line from sliding off due to gravity.

Stay tuned...

[DavePont]

I'll use a PVC flange for connection under the seat, and maybe another flange trimmed to smaller diameter to keep the line from sliding off due to gravity.

Hi Pete, The jam cleat suggested was of the type that has a cover or bridge so the line is retained (outside the cleat jaws) after it is released. (This one even has swivel base and fairlead):



Perhaps the same idea would be useful for you - seeing as you are upside down? See rough pic below: PVC flange and pipe, with a ring of some material? a loop of wire? PVC? Lower flange (not drawn) may be redundant. Now the sheet does not fall to the bilge if you let go completely.

PVCSnub.gif

Dave

[Gary Dierking]

I'm going to try it upside-down - hanging from under the front seat. I'll use a PVC flange for connection under the seat, and maybe another flange trimmed to smaller diameter to keep the line from sliding off due to gravity.

Stay tuned...

Another way to do it would be to dead end the sheet at the wae, lead it up to a block at the gooseneck, out 2/3 of the way on the boom to another block, down to a block near the stern, and forward to the wooden snubbing cleat screwed down to the top of the aft iako. I use a ratchet block at the stern block. One wrap around the snubber is good most of the time and it will slip out in a gust. Wear sailing gloves too.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

.....
The other end of the price scale seems tb something called a "Ratchet Block" as in http://www.murrays.com/archive/24-25.pdf

Looks elegant in it's outward simplicity. I'm guessing that, somethow, the texture of the pully snubs the line until the ratcheting mechanism is disabled by a pull. But I am also guessing it shares the same flaw with cam cleats: If you mess up the un-cleating motion or, in the case of the ratchet block, the mechanism momentarily jams; that fraction of a second does you in.

Ratchett blocks are a commonplace in the racing dinghy world -and work well enough that beginners can use them in Oppies.
The function relies on some tension from the free end - so as long as the sheet is "in hand" (or tucked under a foot) - once you "let go" - the sheet is free(ish) to run.

That "ish" is one of the problems - there is often enough friction to make easing the sheet in light air problematic - so any decent one has an on/off switch for the ratchett.

There is an ugly scene if you ever run the rope backwards through it......


Auto-release cleat ???? http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/clea....asp?theid2=78

[PeteCress]

Another way to do it would be to dead end the sheet at the wae, lead it up to a block at the gooseneck, out 2/3 of the way on the boom to another block, down to a block near the stern, and forward to the wooden snubbing cleat screwed down to the top of the aft iako. I use a ratchet block at the stern block. One wrap around the snubber is good most of the time and it will slip out in a gust. Wear sailing gloves too.

Sounds like the same forces/route, just having the free line at the other end.

I think I'll try that with the snubbing cleat right-side up first bc I just realized that one probably has to flip the line off of the snubbing cleat to haul in - so one would probably be constantly flipping the line on and off the snubbing cleat, which would now work with it hanging under the seat. Also, the fiddle block/jam cleat that I have might work in that setup since the angles would be different.

[Dan St Gean]

Pete,

When I bought the fiddle for the big rig, I thought I'd need it at 4:1 with the 128 square feet of sail. I didn't realize just how low the sheet tension would be with a sprit boom though and ended up going from 4:1 to 1:1 since the sheet loads are low with that rig. With your rig, you might be fine with 1:1 or 2:1, but the fiddle setup can accomodate whatever you want. The fact that it aligns with the force of the pull makes it easy to dump if you don't want to try the snubbing cleat.

Dan

[PeteCress]

...ended up going from 4:1 to 1:1 since the sheet loads are low with that rig. With your rig, you might be fine with 1:1 or 2:1, but the fiddle setup can accomodate whatever you want. The fact that it aligns with the force of the pull makes it easy to dump if you don't want to try the snubbing cleat.

I just got done trying the rear-mount scenario where the sheet deadends on the fore waie and the block that leads it to the helmsman is located back on the aft iako. That seems to give the right angle for reliable un-cleating, but I didn't care for some other aspects of it, so I'm going back to the original under-the-seat route.

Floor flanges for PVC aren't happening - at least locally, so my PVC idea is DOA.

I'll try carving a snubbing post first, then if it doesn't work out, lay out the big bucks (about $80) for a ratchet pulley tb mounted up front where I've got a regular pully now.

I'm guessing that the original /spec'd rig is 2:1, since 1:1 would be a line straight from the helmsman's hand to the boom.

[Dan St Gean]

1:1 could also be run through a block/cleat (boom to cleat).

[edvb]

You know there are many ways to solve the problem. I tried a few of them until I came with the current configuration that worked well for my Raptor. Every boat and pocketbook are different so it is nice to see so many configurations that should help most of us on our particular vessel.

[DavePont]

I just got done trying the rear-mount scenario where the sheet deadends on the fore waie and the block that leads it to the helmsman is located back on the aft iako. That seems to give the right angle for reliable un-cleating, but I didn't care for some other aspects of it, so I'm going back to the original under-the-seat route.

Hi Pete,
FWIW: my current sheeting is different... but it does run to a block aft (sometimes at stern, sometimes a bit further forward but behind the rear iako). My doorknob snub post is in front of me, on right hand gunwale level with back edge of front seat. I find this has worked well and I try different variants almost every second trip. Not sure what you did not like about the run you tried, but what if you put the snub post in front of you? If seated in the hull the sheet runs along right hand gunwale under your right arm where you can hold it directly, or loop it over post and back to your hand. Similarly when hiked out to port you can run direct or via the post. Another variation to consider!

I liked the original run a lot, but found the sheet running down the cockpit from front wae got in the way for passengers or gear in the front. I very much like the sound of Garys alternative, and intend to try it, but I'll probably keep my doorknob in front of me.

I'll try carving a snubbing post first

Do you have an angle grinder and 80 grit (or less) sanding disc? Pretty good way to rough out what you want from a chunk of wood. Then get out the files and finer sandpaper until your level of aesthetics is satisfied.

I'm guessing that the original /spec'd rig is 2:1, since 1:1 would be a line straight from the helmsman's hand to the boom.

My recollection is yes 1:1. With something like the spec rig it is surprising how low sheet loads are, especially with a snubbing post. You could make it 2:1 between boom and stern?

cheers, dave

[Gary Dierking]

I almost always sail the Ulua with hiking seats on both sides now. Even when the ama is to leeward, your weight can lift it enough to eliminate its drag. Consequently, having the snubbing horn/cleat on the aft x-beam is always right in front of me and slightly aft.

[wtarzia]

I almost always sail the Ulua with hiking seats on both sides now. Even when the ama is to leeward, your weight can lift it enough to eliminate its drag. Consequently, having the snubbing horn/cleat on the aft x-beam is always right in front of me and slightly aft.

--- John Wright reports that Randy Smyth sails his trimaran Sissor like a monohull, basically, as he moves on the platforms to keep both amas just above the water if he can. What a 'constantly alert' style of sailing!

Sometimes I try to un-weight my deep-V ama on the proa tack, that's when I can sort of get it skipping across the water with just a few inches of the middle of the deeply rockered keel in the water (one of my early youtube videos shows that). The trimaran tack is always the fastest, with the ama pretty well buried (where it also aids in leeway reduction). I have not concluded why -- is my vaka lifted just a tad, enough to make a difference? Is the platform more stable, thus shaking less air out of the sails than on the proa tack?

I confess I often just like to relax and enjoy the ride, when 5 knots is 5 excellent knots :-) When I cruised with a friend on his trimaran, I felt at home when he joked about the way he does not always attend minutely to trim matters, just wants to enjoy life unharrassed, though his son when aboard is always on him: "Dad, we've got to let that sheet out two more inches, just look at that sail!" I guess I see ama trim the same way, until some boat is creeping up on me and I see it as a affair of honor to make him work for his gains. A guy on a Cape Dory once complained, "I've been trying to catch you for an hour" but only to admire my curious outrigger. Such are the doubtful rewards of effiency :-)

On my old proa, in light air, I used wedge my paddle to use as a lee-side hiking seat to unweight the ama (I acutually felt a difference as that ama was not a very efficient shape).

On snubbing cleats/turning posts, a thing occurs to me. I have a "traveling cleat" which is a length of wood with a horn cleat on one end and a loop on the other, and I have used it from time to time to put a cleat where none was before. it makes a good emergency cleat if one ever tears out, or a moving cleat to suit your needs. You can see it in this EC2011 photo where I saw a sudden possible need for a windward stay made suddenly out of a spare halyard (the bottom photo) http://www.wtarzia.com/Trimaran_conversion.html (in the photo is slack but in the brisk winds of that morning it may have been more useful). Something like this might be mounted in the cockpit for turning the sheet, and since it is soft-mounted on a loop it 'falls' away, out of the way when not used. The disadvantage is that it can fall away out of your reach. I used to have it in front of my knees on the bulkhead to the center watertight compartment. Back wjhen I I tried a jib, it just got tangled too often and I took it off -- the turning post idea seemed better. (I had a mizzen sheet, main sheet, jib sheet, and sometimes a paddle-tether, and an equipment tether -- damn, it started getting crazy in that cockpit! :-) -- Wade

[Dan St Gean]

I almost always sail the Ulua with hiking seats on both sides now. Even when the ama is to leeward, your weight can lift it enough to eliminate its drag. Consequently, having the snubbing horn/cleat on the aft x-beam is always right in front of me and slightly aft.

Gary makes a good point. If you are sailing hiked out on either side regularly, then the turning post of for that matter the lower fiddle/cleat would work well on the aft iako. If you are sitting on the seat, that makes it intollerably awkward. Sitting hiked out makes it impossible to paddle steer though, so it's a systemic approach. Rudder, hiking platform, and sheeting all go together. I'm not really sure how paddle steering goes with sheeting although there is a good series of videos of Kiko an some others doing a trip in Hawiian canoes. Footage of him is especially instructive since he's paddle steering and sheeting solo. I'll look for a link. Solo sailing and paddle steering will clearly require a different setup than rudder steering hiked out. Rudder steering hiking out is a more powerful sailing setup unless you are going trimaran, but the simplicity of paddle steering has some allure as well.

Dan

[PeteCress]

http://tinyurl.com/d7ghtv9, shows what I take tb a re-enforcement plate on the leeboard.

I'm guessing it allows a less massive leeboard with less prospect of the board breaking.


The Question:

What is the plate made out of? Alu? Stainless? Thickness?

[wtarzia]

Well, I wouldn't say sitting in your vaka seat with a mainsheet control somewhere in front of you *has* to be intolerably awkward. As I sit in mine, I see two cam-cleats bolted to the inside port topsides, a couple of inches under the inwale, off-set to remind me one is for the jib (rarely used now), the other for the main sheet. When I slept in that tight space, I didn't even notice them there as they are just forward and sort of inside of the amidship rib, shielded by it. I lean forward a little and cleat the main sheet and rest the fall in my hand. It comes out easily if I have to dump the wind. As I sit on the side seat on the proa tack, the main sheet cam is just foreward and below my left knee. It comes out fairly easily. Resetting it is more of a problem. I ought to put it on my gunwale, period, and it would be universally available (I have not because the leeboard is nearby, but really, it should not be a problem).

What I need to do is get the mizzen-sheet cam also up on the ama-side gunwale -- if I want to fuzz over the mizzen while on the hiking seat, I have to lean over and down to reach it on the vaka seat where it is nicely set up angle-wise and out of the way of everything -- too out of the way when conditions are rough and I need to stay put keeping the ama down. And thus my mizzen is not well tended in rough conditions (over-sheeted usually). --Wade

[Gary Dierking]

http://tinyurl.com/d7ghtv9, shows what I take tb a re-enforcement plate on the leeboard.

I'm guessing it allows a less massive leeboard with less prospect of the board breaking.

The Question:

What is the plate made out of? Alu? Stainless? Thickness?

I always have a 1/8" aluminum plate screwed and sikaflexed to the leeboard even though I'm not sure that I need it. I don't have a lower bearing surface or a rail so it made sense to reinforce the area with the highest stress concentration.
I know that most other leeboards don't have this but it makes me feel more secure.