The outrigger and proa thread

[Dan St Gean]

Did anybody else watching the video get the impression that Va'a Motu is exceptionally responsive to the helm?

Made me think of my Hobie 16s and 14s.

Rocker, Rocker, Rocker! Something which the Ulua has in spades as well--really responsive. The Tamanu has a bit less depending on load condition. In the T200 I had the Tamanau cat heavily loaded and the stern was 6" in the water. That aided tracking and was a bit less responsive as a result. It's a double edged sword, tracking has it's merits as does responsiveness.

Dan

[Dan St Gean]

Man, the outrigger bug has bit me bad!

I keep going back and forth between Ulua and Wa'apa. Today is the latter. I am still thinking of building everything but the hull first and setting up one of my current canoe for sailing while I build the hull

Which canoe would be better: 16 foot Old Town Camper, Roylex hull, or a plywood 15 1/2 foot six hour canoe. Don't laugh at the latter. It was a quick build and let me get my feet wet on boat building

Thanks

I vote for the latter. You already built it, it's wood and can be modified easily enough. That's not something that the Royalex can boast--though people have done it.

Dan

[Bobcat]

I vote for the latter. You already built it, it's wood and can be modified easily enough. That's not something that the Royalex can boast--though people have done it.

Dan

Thanks, that's what I thought too. It's a cheap boat and I have no problem butchering it up

[wtarzia]

...Which canoe would be better: 16 foot Old Town Camper, Roylex hull, or a plywood 15 1/2 foot six hour canoe. Don't laugh at the latter. It was a quick build and let me get my feet wet on boat building ...Thanks

--- Only a goofus would laugh. The 6-hour canoe would make a good test-bed for a quick, light, cheap outrigger -- just to see if you like the idea. If if disappoints you, then the bug never bit you very deeply. if it teases you with visions of a purpose-built outrigger, then now you can go ahead with a better idea of a more serious boat.

You can saw and drill the 6 hour canoe to your heart's content. Build a set of quickie akas (even 2x4s stiffened in the center with a T section -- a rail and some screws). Make a deep-V ama (two sheets, wired down the bottom/keel, spread out with sticks or bulkheads, epoxied along keel, and stuffed with some Dow foam blocks, pool noodles, or soda bottles; save time by tacking canvas over the top for a "deck" or spend extra time making a plywood deck and just screw it/nail it down. Lash the parts together with cheap poly rope. Paddle it a little, build a quickie blue tarp sail. Use it for a few weeks. Then think about what you REALLY want.

If you find you REALLY liked this outrigger, then I do highly recommend building nothing shorter than 18-20 feet. You will want a 20 footer way too soon. Trust me. Wa'apa is a natural choice -- no other outrigger canoe is as flexible and forgiving as a design like that as a second-round of exploration of the outrigger. Me, I farted around with my 14 foot proa, my 16 foot tacking outrigger (which was a testbed for various sail rigs, ama modes, and rudder designs), and I am confident that my next step is a 20 foot Tamanu given my space and the fact that is somewhat like a betterfied and lengthed version of my current 16 footer, which I have found quite capable despite short comings. I hope your 6 hour canoe could lead quickly to your own choices. -- Wade

[Bobcat]

Thanks for the encouragement

Quickie ama or one I use later with a *real* hull?

[Dan St Gean]

Thanks for the encouragement

Quickie ama or one I use later with a *real* hull?

Since it's November, go for the real thing unless you want to get out boating now. Same goes for the other details of aka, rig etc. However, if you want to get on the water tomorrow, do what Wade is suggesting. If you build the real deal now, you might surprise yourself & have the whole thing done for the Spring/Summer.

Dan

[PeteCress]

I keep going back and forth between Ulua and Wa'apa.

One thing I'd be thinking about is recovery from swamp in the worst conditions you plan to sail in.

Several builders in this thread have mentioned freeboard as a concern on their completed boats and at least one builder is thinking about changing his Wa'apa to partially-decked/scuppered.

Also, flat water recovery may be a prerequisite, but is probably not sufficient. From experience long, long ago and far, far away: I can say that recovery from swamp in flat water is one thing, but recovery in 3-5' cross chop is a whole other proposition.

[Dan St Gean]

One thing I'd be thinking about is recovery from swamp in the worst conditions you plan to sail in.

Several builders in this thread have mentioned freeboard as a concern on their completed boats and at least one builder is thinking about changing his Wa'apa to partially-decked/scuppered.

From experience long, long ago and far, far away: recovery from swamp in flat water is one thing, but recovery in 3-5' cross chop is a whole other proposition.

Yep. And that's why I built extra long fore and aft decks on the Ulua and the self bailing cockpits on my Tamanu. I like Gary's super simple self bailing cockpit he uses on his Tamanu and Va'. The additional freeboard of the Tamanu meant I never had to test the self bailing feature--yet.

Dan

[petermirow]

I haven't changed position at all so far, (The hiking seats are right at the center of buoyancy) and the hull seems rock solid on all points of sail. I still need to evaluate the effect of extra crew and hope to do that soon.

Thanks, Gary.

What about the longitudinal stability?

From comparing the images around 0:35 seconds with images from 2:00 seconds, it seems that the boat lifts up on its flat bottom, as speed increases. It this way showing a bow up attitude. Which, I think, would be good thing. As it prevents pichpoling. It shows how much lift can be generated by flat sections and chines, even on very slim hulls. Which, at first, seemed counter intuitive to me. However, I have experienced myself, once, an extended planning, while reaching, in a gust, on my former outrigger canoe Arara. She was 4,40meter long and had a box section, with a flat bottom section of maybe 30cm only, at its widest point, midships.

The bottom of my boat under construction is a deep v at the bow, which opens up, broadens towards the stern. I would however still count with noticeable lift being generated by the flatter sections in the chine.

Rocker would also be a determining factor when it comes to this bow up attitude.

What is your thought about that?

--- Peter

[petermirow]

---

---- I do highly recommend building nothing shorter than 18-20 feet.

I agree with this. I built my first canoe with '14. Pretty soon I wanted it to be 3 feet longer, at least. Also, if you want to carry someone, then 14 is too small anyway.

--- Peter.

[peterchech]

18-20' seems to be a pretty good all round minimum size. 16' may be fine for flatwater, but that waterline length is all the difference in the world in any kind of chop. Building it out to 24' isn't a bad idea either, there is a huge difference between 20 and 24'. 24' seems about perfect for handling the relatively rough chops and swells where I sail. 20' is still hobbyhorsing a bit, but far less than the 16' version. I've said it before, if not cartopping, stretching the vaka as much as practical turns a dinghy into a boat, and costs very very little more because absolutely nothing else need be altered (aka, ama, etc)...

[Dan St Gean]

The bottom of my boat under construction is a deep v at the bow, which opens up, broadens towards the stern. I would however still count with noticeable lift being generated by the flatter sections in the chine.

Rocker would also be a determining factor when it comes to this bow up attitude.

What is your thought about that?

--- Peter

I'm quite interested in this as well. A broad stern would allow sitting further aft and maybe facilitate getting up on a plane perhaps...but it depends on how heavy the boat is and how broad that section is. In my double tamanu it was both good and bad I had a double ended transom. On the positive side, load variations made no difference in performance. On the negative side, sitting aft like is usual for a cat made the boat trim down by the transom further than a broad transom would have.

Dan

[Dan St Gean]

After selling my Ulua and my Jeep Grand Cherokee, I am the proud owner of my Swagger Waggon.

From this:

To this:


Let's just say having a pair of Tamanu hulls in the garage softened the blow of adding the cash from the sale of the Ulua to the minivan rather than another solo sailboat...that and not trying to sandwich kid #3 into my Grand Cherokee.

Dan

[PeteCress]

I am considering implementation of one of Gary's stubby mast/halyard schemas where the halyard runs through a sheave on the top of the stubby, through a pulley at the bow, and then back to the helmsman's station so the rig can be quickly lowered/raised without the helmsman leaving their station.

I'm trying to figure out how to secure that pulley at the bow.

Attaching directly to the manu boards somehow does not feel right to me.

One way would be to stick with the dog's muzzle approach as in http://tinyurl.com/7ayz4vp and maybe screw a little u-shaped thingie under the lip of the manu just to keep the line around the bow from slipping off when all is slack.

Another would be to drill a hole in each manu board, run a line through and knot each outside end as is apparently being done in http://johnrollit.com/pmwiki/uploads/Ulua/Ulua18.jpg . That appeals to me bc it is "soft"... but I'm not 100% sure that's what is going on in the pic.


Or am I fighting nature? One logical setup would be to run the halyard straight down along the stubby and locate the pully on the stubby or wae as in http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/uluabk1.jpg

Anybody got some thoughts?

[trefor]

Dan,

I very nearly picked up a Toyota Sienna or Honda Oddysey after my car got totaled in August. Ended up with a Subaru Outback. Maybe a little more hipster, but still uber practical. The Wa'apa looks a bit huge on the roof, but it works.

Trevor

[Dan St Gean]

Would have stuck with my Jeep but 3 car seats in the back just didn't fit--it doesn't really even fit in a larger Suburban.

Pete, I kinda like the soft hank setup on that link you posted. It sure would be nice to cast off the snotter and the stub mast rig and have the whole shooting match bundled up. I'm not sure how that works with the full length battens though.

Dan

[DavePont]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here for a while - this looks like a refreshing alternative to the 'other' proa forum.

Spotted this gorgeous Ulua up for sale here in NZ:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/kaya...-421294726.htm

...comments at the link reveal this is built by Gary - AHA - I thought it looked familiar! ie it can be seen on his website. Someone may buy a piece of history here.


cheers Dave

[Dan St Gean]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here for a while - this looks like a refreshing alternative to the 'other' proa forum.

Spotted this gorgeous Ulua up for sale here in NZ:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/kaya...-421294726.htm

...comments at the link reveal this is built by Gary - AHA - I thought it looked familiar! ie it can be seen on his website. Someone may buy a piece of history here.


cheers Dave

That's Gary's paddling Ulua. It's a bit lower in the freeboard than the "standard" plans show. Beautiful isn't it?

Dan

[DavePont]

Hi Dan,
yeah it says to me: "Ulua Sportster Edition". It seems to have a steerable skeg with foot pedals - which reminds me I want to rig up some pedals in my Ulua to the quarter rudder. Whenever I have to paddle I get tired of doing corrective strokes, alternating sides etc, even worse when trying to coordinate with a second paddler in front. Foot steering would surely make paddling muuuch easier.

[Dan St Gean]

I always left my rudder down and tucked the tiller extension under my leg to add tracking to the highly rickered shape.

Dan

[peterchech]

A proper skeg wouldn't be a help?

[wtarzia]

Gary Dierking has posted a nice folding-aka hinge (mock-up) on his Outrigger Blog; check it out, looks very interesting. http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogspot.com/ -- Wade

[Dan St Gean]

Sure, and a hinderance too. One of the Ulua's joys is how nimble it is to turn. It's also a fault if you don't want it to turn. I suppose a retractable skeg like kayaks use might be nice--but that's essentially what the kick up rudder becomes when down.

Dan

[Gary Dierking]

Sure, and a hinderance too. One of the Ulua's joys is how nimble it is to turn. It's also a fault if you don't want it to turn. I suppose a retractable skeg like kayaks use might be nice--but that's essentially what the kick up rudder becomes when down.

Dan

I tried a fixed skeg of different shapes and sizes on the Ulua several years ago, but it made steering harder not easier because the skeg was close to the paddler in the aft seat and any draw strokes used for course correction were far less effective. The best way to paddle an Ulua is with foot pedals for sure but if you don't have them you must learn to anticipate what the hull will do next and correct it before it does. Old Hawaiians don't seem to have a problem with it, so it's probably just a matter of practice.

[Bobcat]

What are the advantages/disadvantages of an outrigger versus a trimaran? I will be building Gary's Wa'apa, but constructing everything but the hull first. I have a six hour canoe that I will use to sail while the hull is being constructed.

Any thoughts on whether this stop gap combination would be more successful as a tri or an outrigger?

[JimD]

Bob, I thinks it likely comes down to the fairly obvious things you've no doubt already considered. A tri is more boat, more work, more set up, etc. But has the advantages of symmetry and stability, with sailing characteristics the same on either tack. If I were in your situation, which I am (or very close to it), I would build the two outriggers and strap them to whatever hull I had handy until I got the proper main hull built in due time. I'm using a reworked kayak down the middle.

I have made two 8 foot dory hull outriggers. Even though I was cautioned against the flat bottoms it was still the easiest way to get the most volume out of an 8 foot sheet of plywood. I am converting two different kayak hulls by removing the decks and making them much deeper.

I also see a catamaran in our future by strapping the two kayaks together with 10 foot crossbeams. Each will carry its own mainsail.

[Bobcat]

Jim, we're on the same page. I like the idea of staying put in the cockpit and letting the boat tack and jibe around me.

[wtarzia]

(My long-timer e-buddies have heard all this before, but I repeat for Bobcat who may not have)

I have sailed a single outrigger for many years, and used the same main hull as a trimaran for ~30 hours. I have been dedicated to the single outrigger for its beautiful simplicity (and I also think they are beautiful). My comparison was a 12 foot sailing dory-skiff, though, so of course that is not a good comparison (as beautiful as the dory was). I enjoy the chance to sail on one tack as a proa and on one as a "trimaran" so to speak. The "proa tack" let's you play with flying the ama sometimes, but mostly I keep it down because small outriggers can have a rather sudden snap-roll going over to a knockdown. it can happen pretty quickly, or if not quickly to your mind, then making sudden acroabtic movements to bring the ama back down is not as effective as the same movements on a small monohull. Maybe it's a momentum thing in the ama, and/or maybe a windage thing rotating to knockdown at a certain point, I don't know. Or maybe it's my imagination. When I do fly the ama for a few second here and there, it is fun and edgy, but I only do this in a most a light chop and manageable wind.

On the trimaran tack I have enjoyed the comfort of an easy sitting position, good knockdown protection. You can drive the now-leeward ama under but usually that moment gives you more warning than the proa-knockdown -- my ama has held the boat up even when submarined -- one of my youtubes shows that I think -- but the sunk struts vaporizing the water then warn you with the spray and also act as a speed break (though I have sailed 9 knots on my big (114) lug with the ama submarined. My V-ama has about 250 pounds of displacement (subtract 80 pounds for its weigtht and half the akas). This tack seems to be my fastest and most dry and comfortable. As for speed, I don't know why because the big hull does not seem to lift much (wetted surface) but perhaps the stability lets the sails work best? And some wetted surface is reduced of course on my flat-bottom hull.

The trimaran mode was attained with two nicely shaped (floatation forward, appropriate rocker; from Watertribe Inc.) inflatable amas of about 400# displacement each, hung from box-beam amas -- so the boat is noticeably lightened (though I added expedition gear so the weight came back again and then some). (see it at www.wtarzia.com, click on outrigger then click on the 'trimaran conversion' link at lower left). I sailed this in very rough weather for about 3 or 4 hours, and the remainder in light weather.

Yes, the trimaran mode was balanced and safe. I never left my forward-sitting ergonomic in the cockpit (like sitting on your kitchen chair). I had a side-tiller on a linkage. I sailed it for the entire 27 hour cruise (22 of them nonstop) with significant sleep deprivation. The comfort of the trimaran was important in this cruise (though using a float cushion to sit on for so long is NOT recommended!), and I felt that if I had done something understandly bad (like pass out for a moment) the boat would have "watched over" me for a bit. Even in the bad weather I did not have to hike out, though I brought a hiking seat along.


I loved the trimaran mode, but the one thing I fear is that it would make me a little lazier. Also, I do not watch the sails as well as I should, especially as I had a mizzen behind me (I lean back on the mast as a back rest). I suppose this might be solved by mirrors (semi-joke). This can be got around by enforcing one's own better habits. Though I am still atheletic enough, I have an growing case of osteoarthritis in my hips, so there may come a day when a safe trimaran (by which I also mean, not canvassed up into un-safety) will let me continue sailing, and that is something that make me feel better! -- Wade

[JimD]

Wade, thanks for taking the time to share your annecdotal knowledge again. All of it tells me I want a tri or a catamaran and not a proa.

[peterchech]

Although I haven't configured my boat as a tri yet, if not for the beam limitation at my beach cat club I would have. It's kind of like the difference between a steering oar and a rudder. The steering oar works, but is alot of work and can get scary sometimes when it doesn't work as well as it should. Same goes for tacking outriggers IMHO. Unless you have a safety ama that is, but if you have a safety ama you almost might as well build a real ama and have a trimaran. I guess for cartopping though, a single ama can simplify setup a bit. (One less thing to load/unload, less weight on the roof, one less thing to strap together before sailing)...

Philipine paraws are set up as double outriggers and they look like fun:


To me the advantages of a single outrigger are only experienced in a Pacific Proa setup (although proas have their own new set of difficulties, which I intend to explore next summer).

[Dan St Gean]

I've sailed beachcats, Ulua as a tri and single outrigger, and the big double Tamanu cat. All are fun their own right. I do have some comments which reflect my own sailing style and preferences about the above craft.

Beachcats are faster than all the above. They might be the ultimate of the beach boat for racing and daysailing. They are wet though, so the ironment doing the Worrell of Great Texas300 have my respect. On the inagural Texas 200, my crew Brian and usually left last and arrived first. Beachcats have poor weight capacity for beachcruising unless you think like a backpacker--light is right! That's probably good anyhow since dragging a boat up the beach requires a light boat.

The ulua as tri was nice and secure. I worried a bit about swamping with my 11' open cockpit, so I didn't use it for camp cruising. Instead it was my stylish daysailor. Now with a crew to bail on occasion, it would be an interesting beachcruiser. Tim Anderson did a super light trip on Gary's 18' Ulua--more of a hunter gatherer approach.

The double tamanu as catamaran used in the second Texas 200 was amazing. I used a hobie 18 for all the connections, rig, rudder, etc. Brilliant! Not me, the boat.... For a beachcruiser, a higher volume hull with additional freeboard makes for a great beachcruiser.

I could see a little trimaran making a nice solo cruiser too. As long as the boat has ama volume big enough to scamper off the boat without sinking the ama, it should be fine. I like the idea of the Hobie AI, but it's a bit low and wet unless you are in some warm water or wearing a drysuit. I wonder if a "better" main hull could be built that's a bit longer, slimmer, and with additional freeboard. It has to be able to be built lighter than the rotomoulded Hobie...

I really like what Gary has done with his Va'a Motu with the safety ama for a beachcruiser. I think one with a sufficiently big ama volume that has a hinging aka system to allow trailerability would be super for a cruiser.

Dan

Dan

[Bobcat]

Thanks guys. I love hearing about real life experiences with the various configurations.

One of the things I like about outriggers is the ability to change from one configuration to another

[PeteCress]

From what I have read so far, it sounds like anybody who is serious about paddling Ulua uses a rudder - even Gary Dierking, on his low-freeboard "Paddling", canoe seems to have implemented a foot-controlled rudder as per the advice given in his book.

That being said, the guy in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vEqZ...eature=related does not seem tb experiencing the pulling-to-port issue I describe below...

My question is around how to minimize (not eliminate) the need for a rudder so that a smaller rudder can be used for paddling (as opposed to sailing).

With the very large sailing rudder, I have no problem holding a line - but the rudder is pretty big, seemingly to the point of overkill for just paddling and minimizing those pull-to-port-side forces would seem to promise a smaller/lighter rudder with less drag.

Certainly the rudders on my 21' surf ski work - and the *big* one is only 7" long and 4" wide at it's widest point. The small one is less than half that size (and still works just fine on flat, weed-free water).

The boat clearly wants to bear to port - and I'm guessing it's bco the drag/windage of the ama.

Sans-rudder, sometimes I can keep it going more-or-less straight by taking only 1-2 strokes on a side - but once it starts bearing to port some sort of vicious cycle phenom kicks in where it wants to turn more and more and becomes unrecoverable at speed after a certain number of degrees. Before that number of degrees, I can get it back on course with sweep strokes, but after it just keeps turning harder and harder.

Can anybody explain the nuts and bolts behind that?


I'm thinking that bringing the ama in towards the hull will help. True?

I'm also thinking that maybe a dedicated "Paddling" ama - with minimal weight/water contact/wind resistance would help. Is there anything to that?

[JimD]

I'm also thinking that maybe a dedicated "Paddling" ama - with minimal weight/water contact/wind resistance would help. Is there anything to that?

There's plenty of ultra slim lightweight kayak amas around. Never paddled with one but have talked with a few people who say they're great.

[PeteCress]

There's plenty of ultra slim lightweight kayak amas around. Never paddled with one but have talked with a few people who say they're great.

My first reaction was scavaging an ama from an OC-1, but figured the length would be an issue.

With parallel akas, it would need tb quite a bit longer than what I see on OC-1s - but now you have me thinking..... maybe an OC-2 ama.... My akas are 10' 6" apart on my stretched Ulua (21' instead of 18') and the ama is 16' long. Reverting to the Ulua spec of about 8' between akas, one still comes up with an ama that is 10' long - and there may be (probably are....) reasons I do not know about for those extre two feet between the akas.

Also, there would seem tb a bouyancy issue for use under sail. OC-1/2 amas are probably minimally-bouyant, since they do not have tb driven by a sail on trimaran tack. But still, if I stumble on one long enough, it would seem tb a no-brainer to at least give it a try.

But that's all predicated on an assumption that the ama is a player in the directional stability issue (and my gut says it is... but I don't know what aspects are relevant).

I am hoping for somebody to weigh in on wave-penetrating ama shapes vs surfing shapes.

I have heard that wave-penetrating are more efficient as long as the canoe does not have to be surfed (in which case they tend to go pearl-diving on the drops), but that begs the question of why the ocean-racing OC-1's, OC-3's, and OC-6's all seem to have surfing-shaped amas.

[wtarzia]

On amas: a new company is building plastic retro-fittable amas. We are discussing this on the watertribe site. The concept looks interesting -- modular designs, including an ama that breaks down in three pieces. Go to the watertribe.com site, click on "discussion" and then look for the modular ama thread. Only members can reply, but I think all can read. [ OK, the link is http://www.watertribe.com/Discussion...trNumReplies=6 and also go to www.expandacraft.com. Wooden boat content: these amas can be retrofitted to wooden canoes and purpose-built (from wood!) vakas ] -- Wade

[DavePont]

Hi Pete,
I recall Gary suggesting you can dial-in the ama drag by changing the amount of toe-in or toe-out and testing by giving the boat a good shove in shallow water to see which way it pulls.
I have also read a very detailed article on OC6 paddling. This guy definately talks about some kind of force that starts small then increases wildly as you describe, and I've experienced this too. Very counter intuitive and frustrating. Supposedly you learn to detect or even predict this and counter for it before it really starts. My take-home message was: if you are prepared to put in hours and hours and hours of paddling practice you can master the zen of it. So for me as a very casual paddler a rudder is the good solution ;-)
The idea of a smaller rudder just for paddling should be fine, it could be made to mount to the same place as the larger sailing rudder?

cheers Dave

[peterchech]

But paddling is so boring! Do any of you guys actually do that?

[PeteCress]

But paddling is so boring! Do any of you guys actually do that?

I can't speak to canoe paddling yet, but on my surfski it's a feelgood thing - like running.

Some people love running, others hate it.... analogous deal.

What passes for an intellectual component is wearing a GPS/heart rate monitor and working on stroke/efficiency/average speed/heart rate at a given speed. For those that do it, in ocean racing, there's the added challenge of reading the swells and using them to get little rides that speed you up overall.

I try to get in 4-7 miles three days a week. That's between 45 minutes and a little over an hour of pretty intense effort. I'm trashed at the end, but it freels good to me. My neighbor, OTOH, wonders why I do that to myself.

Dunno about a transition to canoe paddling yet. I've tried one day so far - and surfaced the control issue. Tomorrow I'm going to give it another shot with the bow aka shimmed (if possible) to where the front of the ama rides out of the water, thus reducing wetted area drag.

Single-bladed paddling has a different feel from two-bladed: less flow, more "Chug-Chug-Chug"... but I'm hoping to find it's an acquired taste.

Since it's generally conceeded that paddling into a headwind sucks canal water, my plan for Ulua is to use the sail to work my way upwind on the bay, turn around, strike the sail, and paddle home downwind/downswell.

[Dan St Gean]

Pete! You'll be missing out on the most sublime point of sail... reaching is fun and fast, but overtaking and surfing swells is where it's at!

Dan

[PeteCress]

Hi Pete,
I recall Gary suggesting you can dial-in the ama drag by changing the amount of toe-in or toe-out and testing by giving the boat a good shove in shallow water to see which way it pulls.

I found this: http://issuu.com/stevewest/docs/7-rigging

It's in the context of OC-6's, but a lot seems applicable.

[Dan St Gean]

Good article Pete!

Dan

[DavePont]

Pete, It sounds like you might actually be keen on putting in the hours to master that paddling zen! I'm too lazy. Here is that OC6 paddling article, I think you're gonna love this:

http://www.joshuaoconnor.com/steerou....outrigger.htm

I remember Gary posting a link once on stroke technique... maybe on his blog???

Meanwhile I made a very quick and dirty set of 'foot pedals' for steering my Ulua in the weekend. I have quarter rudder, connected with a short wooden arm to a centrally mounted remote tiller just behind the rear seat and iako. So a couple of tiny fixed pulleys on inwales one either side of tiller, spectra line from tiller to pulleys, then run forward and tied to a wooden bar! In use place heels on cockpit floor, steering bar on balls of feet, push left/right to turn right/left. Adjustable for leg length (retie the knots)!, stowable (throw it under the rear seat)! Definitely the super-budget version but as long as it is workable it will do me! It passed a quick lawn test - a few tweaks required. Hope to get out soon to test that and other new bits: quarter rudder, leeboard, might redo rudder hinges, maybe smaller second rig... its spring and the wind and water are calling...

happy paddling, Dave

[JimD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0kU1...eature=related

Sorry if you guys already have this video on the thread, but I think it clearly shows why a safety ama is not optional in Hawaii.

One of my favourites. Can't watch this stuff too much. Somebody should make a feature movie about these races, sort of a 'Blue Crush' for Hawaiian sailing canoes.

[flsail]

I just got the study plans for Madness in the mail last night. I'm already a fan and it has ratcheted up my excitement on my own Wa'apa proa build once I get moved into my new "shop".

Madness is a very elegant design as well as very approachable in terms of materials and process. Just wish I had a shop big enough, this won't fit in my half of the 2 car garage.

I was grinning from ear to ear when I found out in the intro letter that the first CNC kit had already shipped to WA and at what I thought was very reasonable price. My wife saw me flipping through the 25 or so pages and I think she got nervous, so she distracted me by putting on her bikini and walking into the room with a couple beers asking me to go for a swim. Out in the pool she said she thought it was a good time for us to buy a boat and asked if I wanted to go looking this weekend. There was a clear emphasis on the word buy...


Jon

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

.......
The idea of a smaller rudder just for paddling should be fine, it could be made to mount to the same place as the larger sailing rudder?

cheers Dave

I saw a drawing once of a sailing rudder which hinged up in the normal manner so that what was the leading edge of the foil became horizontal and just clear of the water - so far so ordinary.

The difference was a smallish triangular shark-fin set forward of most of the leading edge - so that when the rudder was retracted, this formed a rudder about the shape and size you would find on a racing scull.

[JimD]

Great footage of the Hawaiian Sailing Canoe Association:

http://www.hawaiian-skies.com/blog/2...sailing-canoes

[PeteCress]

I think you're gonna love this: http://www.joshuaoconnor.com/steerou....outrigger.htm

Right on the money: I loved it.

Thanks.

I still don't understand the mechanics of the ever-increasing-turn-shopping-cart-analogy, but at least it validated my own experience and now I realize it's something I need to deal with via technique rather than hardware.

You're going to post pix of the new rudder setup once it's debugged, right?

[DavePont]

Hi Pete, glad you liked the article.

Pix !! just how interesting is a stick with a string tied to each end: lol. Well, that's the 'pedals', you actually did say rudder - which might be worth some pics, so long as it actually all works. Winter has seen me adding things at a very slow pace, then staring at them, then thinking - nah it should be like this, then modifying it... I'm on rudder setup 3, 4 counting pedals, 5 if I change hinges; and I only sailed once with rudder #1. Is this a medical condition?!

Does anyone have any info or comments on those Hawaiian sail rigs? particularly re sail shape, but also sheeting etc. I'm interested because this is the type of rig I have and I may build another quick one. My current rig is as per Ulua specs, but I have it loose footed - mostly so I can furl it up (and reef) by rolling mast. But I notice the loose foot is sort of like flying the sail upside down. If the foot is lashed to the boom the foot and luff are straight, the leech curves. With a loose foot sheeting in pulls the leech straight(er) and the foot curves - like those Hawaiian rigs. This makes me wonder if I should invert the sail, which is shaped slightly, reversing tack and head... Hope that is not confusing.

cheers Dave

[wtarzia]

I enjoyed some brisk November sailing on Bantam Lake, CT last Sunday. I tested out my new curved tiller and linkage, but did not like it (tiller makes too much sweep, the "gear ratio" was not adequately modeled). The gear ratio is easily changed by sawing things down, but I am leaning again to the simpler and closer (to cockpit) quarter rudder again. My old quarter rudders (two iterations) worked well enough but needed better engineering for precise mechanics (solid, wiggle-free steering -- two things annoy me in life, loud music and wiggly rudder/tiller set ups. Everything else I can endure :-) . I uploaded two videos. The first one deserves to be deleted pretty soon, but I recorded in it an almost-capsize that visualizes what I said about the fast roll of a small outrigger canoe and what happens if you are being lazy. (Go to minute 3 in this video to bypass the boring stuff http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HClROHjAa8 ). The other video shows some brisker sailing but the problem is I generally have to film for 7-10 minutes to get the good two-minutes. Is there a way to cut away unwanted parts of videos that does not require investing in expensive software? -- Wade