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Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #141
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Originally Posted by JimD
    A question re the beam on Hobies and other similar beach/performance type cats: What happens when you widen the beam a couple feet to say around 10 feet? Somebody must have tried this already...



    I've never heard of anyone doing it. Tornados are 10' wide, but they're made that way. 10' beams that will hold up big powerful rigs are non-trivial to construct.
    K O'N
    My next stupid question: Anyone ever hear of a Hobie turned into tri by just putting a center hull where the tramp is?

  2. #142
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    i believe wade's boat is rigged as a cat ketch with lug sails, also. you might ask him how it sails.
    --- I like the cat-ketch, but I am not a great authority since I am still pretty low on the sailing learning curve. I should pay more attention to all those sail-tuning things, but I am usually too busy enjoying myself, and an outrigger performing poorly is still going fast enough to be fun. That being said, here are a few thoughts:

    (1) Standing lugs are easy up and easy down. They can be tuned with an outhaul and a downhaul but I tend to leave the outhaul be since wind strength varies so much I haven't seen the sense in adjusting sail draft all the time. The downhaul is very important, and even a small lug needs a 2:1 I think. A good parrel system has to be worked out. I tried a couple and am unhappy. I am now going to try the one that DaVID Nichols shows on p.63, FIG. 6-07 of The Working Guide to Traditional Small Craft -- Halyard snapped to heel of yard, around mast (= parrel function), clips into the halyward attachment point recommended for that rig, and goes up to the masthead. It seems functional and elegant.

    (2) Choose boom and yard stiffness well. I tried a one inch marine aluminum spar last summer on my main yard (54 square foot lug), and just when the wind got exciting at 10-15 mph the spar flexed, flattened sail, and I lost performance (and for my dull senses to detect a performance loss, you know it was real). So, spar bending is great for power control but when the control engages is the question. I went back to my old stiff douglas fir spar. Weight aloft is not as big a concern on an outrigger as for a mono. Eventually I will get a bigger aluminum spar I guess just to match my others. But you don't want to invest so much money into spars until you know what effect their bend will have.

    (3) If the lug is loose-footed, boom-bend will induce draft at the wrong time, so I think a stiff boom is good first choice. If sail foot is laced to boom, same issues as for the yardarm.

    (4) Sheet attachment: same as for the boom issues: if the sheet pulls boom down somewhere in the middle on loose footed sail, draft is induced maybe at the wrong time. I run 2:1 sheet from traveler rope, long boom to the tack, down to deck, and bacf aft to me. Costs some blocks and deadeyes, but the boomis less affected, and the lines stay out of the way if you do it right.

    (5) A lug needs a stiff mast; mast bend will induce draft unlike the case for some marconi sails, which will flatten and dump power (=good when planned for).

    (6) if you have sails designed, your sailmakerwill ask you all these questions to plan for sail shape; if he or she does not, they are no sail maker. Todd Bradshaw asked me all the good questions and more.

    (7) The standing lug is not the best sail for windward work: plan on 55 degrees *made good* -- pointing ability does not mean much if the boat makes a lot of leeway -- if your boards are good, and just accept ther gift if it does better. But it is a great all-around sail. Put tell-tales on it, midchord and trailing edge.

    (8) The main sail will back-wind the mizzen sail. On a cat-ketch that means more power loss because more (relatively) power is invested in the relatively large mizzen sail. You already loose some windward drive from the low-aspect ratios, but also the boat sails flatter because of less heeling angle, but the shorter rig looses some power because the (on small boats) sail COE's are lower than that 12 feet of height over water where the wind starts becoming really useful. You can add and subtract it all up, and let me know what you come up with :-)

    The adage for multihulls is, "going very fast on a close reach is better than sailing higher and more slowly on a beat." You may get to your windward destination just as quickly. But if you need to get higher because of leeshore or obstacles, well, that's too bad. I can pinch up and crawl at 3 knots around some stuff (at New Haven ramp, wind on ramp gives option of tacking into fishing pier and angry fisherfolk to port, and or rocks at the end of the short beach to starboard -- so I sometimes paddle out into teeth of wind), and on small boats the paddle is always there if you did not block up paddling room with all sorts of permanent aka-stuff such as side seats (make them fold aside easily for paddling).

    (9) The mizzen needs to be sheeted in flatter than the main, so it looses some drive. On downwind course, it blankets the main. Wing and wing helps if you can maintain it; I seldom can, boat yaws eventually and mizzen gybes). However, I found the best downwind course is a tacking course, broad reach to broad reach or close to it. The boat goes faster, the gybes on a small lugs are not too bad (and gybes have less force the faster you go as apparent wind drops, so sail fast then gybe), and in general life seems better going downwind in tacks.

    (10) Of course the mizzen is great to lie-to in a squall, or just to relax and eat your lunch bow to waves. When something breaks (usually not mizzen stuff) the mizzen is there to control the boat while you do repair. But....

    I broached a month ago in rough water and stiff wind (my hand slipped off the tiller), and the boat spun very quickly perhaps because the mizzen (the small one, jibheaded) was sheeted in hard and the main boom (small 37 lug) was let out -- that might be dangerous combination. But I survived and the boat then turned bow-up on the mizzen -- all happening in a few seconds. Not sure if mizzen aided this near disaster -- boats do broach after all, without mizzens -- but it helped with it afterward. And in general the mizzen has been a good autopilot to bring boat automatically into wind.

    (11) The mizzen is generally sheeted in hard to the canoe stern -- no big traveler span available. You thus need to remember to sheet it out if you come to a reach. The boat will keep going and so it can lull you into inattention to the mizzen which is behind you, unlike a main and jib, always in your eyes. Develop cat-ketch habits. If you sit on a side seat, this is not a big problem. If you sail from cockpit (on trimaran tack) it might be.

    (12) The ketch-mizzen is big enough to be main sail in heavy weather, which is great. I went out in SCA weather last month (the broach) with 37 s.f. mizzen shifted to main, and 20 foot mizzen marconi raised -- excellent combination. It would help to have the smaller mizzen somehow ready to raise very quickly if you were changing sails on the water.

    (13) Lucky number 13! You might ask if you can get much of the good stuff above with a cat-yawl, and reduce some windward power loss problematic to the cat-ketch. People say you can. Ask me next summer. My outrigger Short Dragon will continue as a diverse testbed as I intended it , one of the things I intended that turned out as planned :-) I built him with four mast steps, but now find I had not enough imagination to add a far-aft 5th step.

    So I am going to add another step for the mizzen further aft so that the boom of my 114 sf balanced lug (off a Bolger Windsprint) will clear it, and I will raise as mizzen my small 20 foot marconi (or jibheaded, whatever). I tried last summer the big lug in 15-20 mph wind and the boat just flew but the taller sail obviously pushed the ama down; try 10 knots with the ama under water for bizarre excitement. But the outrigger was harder to control; it would not head up as easily without the mizzen, and it would tend to fall off and start going again without constant attention. It had light weather helm, perhaps too light. But I really missed a mizzen, so I will try that arrangement eventually. (I was going to try this for the Everglades Challenge -- great for light air -- but decided I should go with my old rig seeing as the EC will be offering plenty of 'challenge' and a new rig is not the time for that.)

    (14) I have tried the cat-ketch with a small 20 foot jib set on a de-riggable boom, but not enough so that I can confidently comment on it. The sail is fine; I am talking about learning a 3-sail set of good habits. Three sails to keep track of on a small pitching, wobbling outrigger ..... I don't know. The jib is less accomodating to poor sailing than the lug, and so it does keep you honest. I will be bringing it to the EC, anyway since the days I did not bring it with me this summer tended to end up light winded, and I missed the extra push. --Wade
    Last edited by wtarzia; 12-29-2010 at 12:12 PM.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Chris Ostlind -- nice boat, that new 15 foot trimaran you designed! Some wooden competition for the Weta?

    http://www.lunadadesign.com/corsica-15r.html#more-759

    -- Wade
    Last edited by wtarzia; 12-29-2010 at 12:29 PM.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    (1) Standing lugs are easy up and easy down. They can be tuned with an outhaul and a downhaul but I tend to leave the outhaul be since wind strength varies so much I haven't seen the sense in adjusting sail draft all the time. The downhaul is very important, and even a small lug needs a 2:1 I think. A good parrel system has to be worked out. I tried a couple and am unhappy. I am now going to try the one that DaVID Nichols shows on p.63, FIG. 6-07 of The Working Guide to Traditional Small Craft -- Halyard snapped to heel of yard, around mast (= parrel function), clips into the halyward attachment point recommended for that rig, and goes up to the masthead. It seems functional and elegant.

    (7) The standing lug is not the best sail for windward work: plan on 55 degrees *made good* -- pointing ability does not mean much if the boat makes a lot of leeway -- if your boards are good, and just accept ther gift if it does better. But it is a great all-around sail. Put tell-tales on it, midchord and trailing edge.

    I have found very good results using a rooftop luggage strap from home depot for a downhaul. It is basically a length of nylon webbing with a 1 way metal fastener, but no ratchet. Extremely simple, easier to adjust than a block and cleat, prob can get a bit tighter too. As far as the parrel system, I am using Mike Storer's getup it is very simple (halyard acts as parrel) and works well for me.

    http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html


    By giving the yard a 45 degree angle, I have had decent upwind performance prob because of the higher aspect ratio. Also, in light air I notice that often only the very top triangle of sail is filled with wind, I guess above that 12 ft mark that Wade mentioned...


    Haha and like Wade, who is more modest about his sailing experience than I think he needs to be, I am no expert but can only attest to the pleasurable days on the water I had this summer, occasionally with the perception altering effects of beer :-)

  5. #145
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    I have found very good results using a rooftop luggage strap from home depot for a downhaul. It is basically a length of nylon webbing with a 1 way metal fastener, but no ratchet. Extremely simple, easier to adjust than a block and cleat, prob can get a bit tighter too. As far as the parrel system, I am using Mike Storer's getup it is very simple (halyard acts as parrel) and works well for me.

    http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISRigging.html

    --- The halyard-parrel system I found in Nichols is the same as on Storer's site, so I feel extra better about it. In general I like Storer's rigging tips, and my main sheet runs more or less like his, with mine carried to the boom gooseneck to avoid bending my boom. I love the simplicity of some of his advice, such as the simple loop to hold boom to mast. -- Wade

  6. #146
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Took a look at the Hobie 16 for sale. There was one mushy spot on the port hull but overall I think its probably worth the money. But don't think I'll buy it. What I really want is a multihull with some serious beam, hull volume, and stability, and that's not a HobieCat. I think what I want is at least one Tamanu hull, maybe two.

    Last edited by JimD; 12-29-2010 at 02:55 PM.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    look at a wharram hitia 17 if you want a stable catamaran. i have an online acquaintance that sails one in whirral, england. probably about as tidal and cold watered as where you live. he camp cruises with it regularly.

    http://www.wharram.com/hitia17.html

    trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    look at a wharram hitia 17 if you want a stable catamaran. i have an online acquaintance that sails one in whirral, england. probably about as tidal and cold watered as where you live. he camp cruises with it regularly.

    http://www.wharram.com/hitia17.html

    trevor
    I've wondered just how wet Hitia would be. I still have the impression its for more intrepid sailors than myself. Another simple cat I like is the Hawk 18 from Paul Fisher. The hulls are dory-ish and there's room in them for a sleeping bag




  9. #149
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    What I really want is a multihull with some serious beam, hull volume, and stability, and that's not a HobieCat. I think what I want is at least one Tamanu hull, maybe two.
    Are you trailering Jim? Or keeping it by the beach, cartopping, ?

    One option for a seriously large but simple build is to stretch out dierking's wa'apa to 32 ft, in two 16' bolt together sections. He told me he thinks it is structurally fine, and I imagine it would really fly with that long waterline but still be very seaworthy and easy to handle with a smallish, simple triangular hawaiin sail, like some OC6's have. If I wasn't bound to cartopping I would def have done that option...

  10. #150
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Are you trailering Jim? Or keeping it by the beach, cartopping, ?

    One option for a seriously large but simple build is to stretch out dierking's wa'apa to 32 ft, in two 16' bolt together sections. He told me he thinks it is structurally fine, and I imagine it would really fly with that long waterline but still be very seaworthy and easy to handle with a smallish, simple triangular hawaiin sail, like some OC6's have. If I wasn't bound to cartopping I would def have done that option...
    A 32 foot South Seas outrigger would be quite a sight around here. I could single handedly breeze past the dragon boats and native canoes. Heck, I could just about sail it to Hawaii (er, maybe not). Something to think about. But the Wa'apa 24 seems more realistic. I mentioned once earlier I'd build it with a 13 foot middle section that could be used as two sleeping births if the hull were a couple inches wider. Or a Tamanu 20 in two sections. And its possible the 12 ft amas I'm currently building in plywood for the kayak conversion would be enough for a Tamanu hull. I haven't started gluing the amas yet, they are so far just wire stitched. Now might be the time to think ahead and make them four feet longer.

    I can trailer or cartop on the pickup truck which I currently have set up to carry two kayaks. In fact at the moment I'm set up to put two kayaks on top of the truck and tow the monohull sailboat on the trailer behind. I could even throw the inflatable dinghy on there and transport four boats at once. I also have a small utility trailer which could be easily modified.
    Last edited by JimD; 12-29-2010 at 05:55 PM.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread


  12. #152
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Hmmm you could always build a berth that is a tad wider, say starting 5 in. or so down from the gunwhale, sort of like many trimarans do. But have you thought about sleeping on the tramp, or setting up a hammock between two masts, or something like that? Or even just building a plaform that sits on top of the gunwhales and can be used as a bunk?

    My goal is to sleep on the tramp, but my amas are high enough that my crossbeams need not be very curved, so the tramp should be pretty level. Plus my amas have plenty of flotation (I think ) so the tramp seems a natural option to me, perhaps with a hammock suspended between the masts for a crewmember...

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    i found these from the same guy a while back. this thing is huge!
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/tahitip...th/4829427135/



    trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Hmmm you could always build a berth that is a tad wider, say starting 5 in. or so down from the gunwhale, sort of like many trimarans do...
    Yes, thought about that but it makes the hull that much more complicated and heavy to build. A three plank boat wide enough on the bottom for my shoulders would be simple and ideal. Or there could be a platform, a sole of sorts, high enough up to get me the 21 or 22 inch width I'd need. I'd rather have a flat, firm platform rather than a tramp, to pitch a two person tent on. Don't think my back would survive a night in a hammock.
    Last edited by JimD; 12-29-2010 at 08:59 PM.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Last edited by JimD; 12-29-2010 at 09:12 PM.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Took a look at the Hobie 16 for sale. There was one mushy spot on the port hull but overall I think its probably worth the money. But don't think I'll buy it. What I really want is a multihull with some serious beam, hull volume, and stability, and that's not a HobieCat. I think what I want is at least one Tamanu hull, maybe two.

    Now you're talking!

    Dan

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan St Gean View Post
    Now you're talking!

    Dan


    Dan, since you're still up this time of night...any idea how big the amas are for the Tamanu tri? I'm wondering if these 12 footers I'm building for the tri-yak would do. They're double ended vee's so they ought to slice through the water very cleanly:





    The ones in the illustration don't seem much bigger. How long are they, etc?
    Last edited by JimD; 12-29-2010 at 10:37 PM.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    i found these from the same guy a while back. this thing is huge!
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/tahitip...th/4829427135/



    trevor
    50 feet, interesting rig, very traditional western gaff, design inspired by an Admiral Paris who drew it in 1820, apparently. Quite an eclectic mix.



    O Tahiti Nui's website: http://otahitinui.com/vaa/en



    Last edited by JimD; 12-29-2010 at 11:13 PM.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I'm salivating...

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Here's a video of O Tahiti Nui Freedom. They cut back and forth a bit too much, but it gives an idea of what it looks like sailing. http://vimeo.com/14343356

    Trevor
    Last edited by trefor; 12-30-2010 at 08:37 AM.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Paul Fisher has a very nifty looking 18 foot Hawaiian-esque outrigger canoe with a rounded chine bottom. More work to build but I think it has a lot of ethnic charm and no reason you couldn't add another ama and a sail:




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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Paul Fisher has a very nifty looking 18 foot Hawaiian-esque outrigger canoe with a rounded chine bottom. More work to build but I think it has a lot of ethnic charm and no reason you couldn't add another ama and a sail:
    --- A nice looking canoe. I guess it is Hawaiian in spiration but not in use. It's flat rocker takes it out of the surf-landing category. It might track better on flat water, though. --Wade

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    neat look'n boat! i love the profile. being 18', you could probably lift the ulua sail setup for it. it sorta reminds me a little of this old 1940's article.



    trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    How delightful, that 1940s thing! I knew Munroe's early experiments with the proa, but I had no idea that the general concept was being more popularly discussed in the media. And how 1940s -- nowadays the women are demanding their own paddle, and also leaving the men behind! That guy in the cartoon looks like he's wondering how it might be if it were socially acceptable for his girl to pick up a paddle and relieve some burden of maniless :-) I met plenty of women at the Everglades Challenge who could put in 15 hour paddling days as well as any man (and far better than I could). The 21st century is an amazing place to be (one hopes we might survive it). --Wade

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    One also wonders why he's paddling in his underwear.

    Trevor

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    ... That guy in the cartoon looks like he's wondering how it might be if it were socially acceptable for his girl to pick up a paddle and relieve some burden of maniless ...
    I thought he was just staring at her ass.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Sorry Jim I missed your question earlier. The Tamanu outrigger hulls are are slim as the intent is to make an ama out of minimal materials. 16' x 6" for the stock design. I'm a fan of larger amas though sincel I like to use the ama's flotation for the tramp, comfortable hiking or tying up at a dock. I asked Gary to draw up a larger ama which he called AmuNui. Essentially the same idea with swoopier lines and 12' square for masively more flotation.

    I'd like to see amas able to at least able to support your body weight just in case you tie up at a dock or pier instead of beaching like some are able to do it appears.

    Dan

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Dan do u have a pic of the ama gary drew up for u? Hana 12" square i thought i had more than enough flotation in my self designed ama but now im not so sure that's one big ama!

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    My ama has just enough floation to support my weight (I'm 87kg at the moment), I built it according to the ulua plans but I made it longer by 30-40cm with the extra length going into the fatter forward section.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan St Gean View Post
    Sorry Jim I missed your question earlier. The Tamanu outrigger hulls are are slim as the intent is to make an ama out of minimal materials. 16' x 6" for the stock design. I'm a fan of larger amas though sincel I like to use the ama's flotation for the tramp, comfortable hiking or tying up at a dock. I asked Gary to draw up a larger ama which he called AmuNui. Essentially the same idea with swoopier lines and 12' square for masively more flotation.

    I'd like to see amas able to at least able to support your body weight just in case you tie up at a dock or pier instead of beaching like some are able to do it appears.

    Dan
    Thanks, Dan. I'm sure my amas will easily support my weight as I expect it would take at least 250# to submerge them, although I've never done an accurate volume calculation. So they ought to support a modest sail plan, too. I think my 12 foot hulls would be fine volume wise for a Tamanu hull but I also wonder if being shorter they could slow the boat down.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- A nice looking canoe. I guess it is Hawaiian in spiration but not in use. It's flat rocker takes it out of the surf-landing category. It might track better on flat water, though. --Wade
    And I like the vertical sides. No flare whatsoever. Easy easy easy to build with a flat bottom. Because of the complex shape of the kayak I'm converting it would likely be easier and less work and time to just build a three plank proa hull from scratch.
    Last edited by JimD; 01-01-2011 at 01:52 PM.

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread





    Here's a look at the Ama Nui.

    Gary

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I like an ama about that size. The first ama on my boat was pretty small, the new one is a bit above 1' across at the middle, 12' long, about 600 lb of flotation. You can see it under construction on the middle of the page:

    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/1...Kevin%27s-boat

    I like it a lot. Two guys can sit on the seat above it in waves and not sink it, that's perfect. It opens up the whole platform for camping and lounging about, as Dan said. I'd never go back to a smaller ama, just too restrictive in where you sit on the boat.

    K O'N

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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by K O'N View Post
    I like an ama about that size. The first ama on my boat was pretty small, the new one is a bit above 1' across at the middle, 12' long, about 600 lb of flotation. You can see it under construction on the middle of the page:

    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/1...Kevin%27s-boat

    I like it a lot. Two guys can sit on the seat above it in waves and not sink it, that's perfect. It opens up the whole platform for camping and lounging about, as Dan said. I'd never go back to a smaller ama, just too restrictive in where you sit on the boat.

    K O'N
    This it?



  35. #175
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    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    This (Gary's ama nui) is a good shape in my experience. The V-bottom is pretty quiet when slapping, the V-top encourages the ama to arise from the depths (which is my anti-experience, because my lazy amas have been flat-topped. Is that about 400 pounds of displacement?

    Were I to keep my deep=V ama, I would modify the deck with some rounded-over foam, glassed). I like Kevin's big ama. Though I thought the near-neutral-buoyancy was interesting as a near-native-proa experience, and the support-body-weight ama a kind of minimum most of us should have, I can see nothing bad in a light ama that supports both crew weight and boat weight. - Wade

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