Some interesting reading on proa design here
Some interesting reading on proa design here
Duckworks Dec launchings has a piece about a new proa launching, with a video
Here's a neat little tacking proa.
There's a used Hobie cat 16 at what seems like a good price I'm going to be taking a look at in a few days. Anyone familiar enough with them to offer advice on what I should be looking at? Ie, are there points on these boats that are prone to wear and failure, etc? I would like to use it as the basis for a tri. For example, this Woods tri uses production 16 foot beach cat hulls for amas.
If you do go look at the 16 look for:
Soft decks. Push down on the deck in front of the pylons. Soft decks are death, don't buy the boat except for parts, you have to do a lot of work to fix the decks.
Look at the mast for the comp tip. Hobie required a fiberglass mast section on the top of the H16 mast when they were owned by Coleman. Very bad, adds weight and also makes it hard or impossible to reef the sail, which is a bigger deal on a tri than on a beachcat, I would think. I wouldn't put a comptip mast on a tri like that.
I think you can find a better boat to do a conversion on. A Tornado or a big Nacra or something, really any big beachcat will have lots more volume in the bows and a better mast than the 16.
Doing great! I'm spending Christmas in Sanibel with family and have gotten out for two sails and two kayak trips thus far over Christmas break. I'm still messing with outriggers and cats--thinking of reorganizing the fleet a bit. Right now I have a Guillemot Expedition, the Ulua sailing outrigger, the Tamanu hull (destined for outrigger or cat duty), and the Hobie 18 all up in Chicago. My father in law has the Hobie Wave and three kayaks down in Sanibel. He's probably not going to bring them down to Sanibel next year, so I'll need to do something for next year.
I was thinking since Brett is leaving the kayaks and Wave in Wisconsin, I'll need some boats down South for Christmas. A pair of stand up paddleboards, a pair of sit on top kayaks, and a sailboat would be stellar down here. I could use some of the boats I have for that duty. I currently have the Ulua or Tamanu that could be the sailboat. An outrigger seens a natural down here. A big cat like the double Tamanu would also be a nice boat down here--better than the Wave for sure. It's OK solo, but an underpowered pig with more than 2. I might sell the Expedition and the Ulua to finance the other boat ideas...
Thanks for the update on your new boat as well. I hope all is well with you and post some pics of your boats here for the WB folks too!
I'll check for soft decks and delam. Thanks for the tips. I don't understand what you mean about the mast as I've never taken a close look at a Hobie mast before but I imagine that will be clear enough as soon as I do. The vaka hull I would build would likely be a lot more like a Dierking hull, such as
Here's a couple pics of the Hobie 16 that is for sale up here. There are very few on the market as this is not exactly Hobie country:
The seller is asking $1000. I'm not sure how old it is.
Hard to tell from the pictures. Do you want to use the hulls as amas? using the mast would be fine as long as it's an old one without the comptip. That's just a fiberglass upper half with a plastic luff track. Utter crap unless you hit power lines. That's why they went to them--big lawsuit... Anyhoo, the hulls aren't really ideal as amas, but that doesnt seem to affect the Newick Tremolino too badly (although there are guys trying H18 hulls and "new Moon amas" as well since the amas aren't ideal). Geting all the gear and trailer with the boat makes the acquisition worthwhile sometimes as the sails go for as much as the whole boat anyhow. Other models would be better if you can wait. There's a fella trying to get rid of some amas up your way over on the yahoo multihullboatbuilder group. you wouldn't get the gear that comes with a complete cat though. Another thing that relates to this is hull weight. H 16 amas are HEAVY for their size. Fine on a moored boat, but less cool if you intend to horse thm around. The designer of the boat you linked to, Richard Woods, strongly discouraged me from building the Strike 18 using my Hobie 18 hulls, so that might be a factor.
The Tamanu hull is sweet though. Having built two of them and sailed them as a cat for 200 or so miles doesn't make me an expert, but I do have some experience. Build it light though.
Its not hard to see why the H16 hulls are not optimum for a tri, especially a heavy one with a big sail plan. But that's not what I have in mind. How big and heavy was the vaka on the original Newick Tremolino? How big was the sail plan? In other words was a good part of the problem with the Tremolino that too much was being asked of the H16 hulls even despite their low volume and high rocker? I regret having posted the Woods Strike as an example as it gives the wrong impression. My vaka would be much closer to a Tamanu hull, if not one exactly.
These are apparently pics of a 1979 Tremolino with H16 hulls:
Is this also one?
Last edited by JimD; 12-27-2010 at 12:56 PM.
I misunderstood, I thought you wanted to build a Woods tri. So you're designing your own boat? Modifying a design? Looking for a design?
Rather than starting with a H16 and wondering what you can make of it, I would think about what I want out of the design. I'm very prone to buying boats, so $1000 Hobies on the beach like the one you show are a terrible test for me. But first, about this hypothetical boat you want to build:
Does it fold or do you put it together on the beach or does it live on a mooring? This is a big deal.
How much payload?
What's your budget?
How fast a boat do you need? Every step is more money, more trouble, more setup time. Look at this:
The Drifter, for example. If you just want to zip around and have fun at ten knots, man. Can it get any simpler than that?
Regarding the Tremolino, the classic version is much loved, but kind of dated. There's a Tremolino group on Yahoo, go ask them, they're real experts. Look on Sailing Anarchy too, a guy there called Oxygen Mask has a classic Trem, he'd be a good one to ask about how it sails.
Regarding the H16, I raced them and I love them, but I'd steel my heart and say probably not. If the hulls are hard it's a fair deal. If the mast is aluminum all the way up it's a pretty good deal. But look on craigslist first, you really want parts, not a working boat. And a comptip mast or soft hulls would absolutely be a deal breaker for me.
That's a better deal for you than the Hobie, I bet, if you're just looking at modifying a beachcat. You can't make a Tremolino out of it, but I bet you can make a nice boat. Talk to Gary Dierking or Richard Woods or some other designer about a center hull and beams for something like this. Stiffer hulls, probably lighter hulls, better mast.
One thing about the pictures of the Tremolinos above. The blue jib is a roller furler from a Hobie 18. The white jib is a Hobie 16 jib with battens. You want a roller furling jib.
Good luck, sorry for writing a book.
Kevin, what makes a Tremolino dated? Just curious. -- Wade
Last edited by JimD; 12-27-2010 at 11:17 PM.
But as I said people still really love the classic, with the Hobie 16 rig and amas and all. I drove five or so hours down to Brownsville last year to look at one. Basket case, the trailer never would have made it home and the boat was in bad shape.
I have often thought that a Tremolino main hull might form the basis for a nice tacking outrigger. With a small enough outrigger (say 13-14') I think it would remain rightable by one person in the event of capsize. Couple that with a small, efficient, rig and focussing the whole boat towards the light weight, low drag, low power end of the spectrum and I think a nice solo weekend cruiser might result.
I started the dry fit of my Wa'apa's main hull yesterday. I hope to have the second half dry fit and then glue up the whole thing sometime today. I took a couple days off work this week just to work on the boat. I'll likely put the bottoms on this coming weekend.
I still have not yet processed ama rocker. Most of the rocker on the new amma shapes starts at the middle of the ama then slopes back, right? What is the function of that?
Nice. It 's good having only 8 sections to deal with. Why do the stem pieces flare out like that, I wonder? I've meaning to ask Gary for months but keep forgetting. More volume? Plwood lays better? -- wade
Last edited by JimD; 12-28-2010 at 11:30 AM.
A question re the beam on Hobies and other similar beach/performance type cats: What happens when you widen the beam a couple feet to say around 10 feet? Somebody must have tried this already.
and searching the sailing anarchy forums for terms like "ian float design" will turn up pages of argument and counters, with Ian Farrier right in the mix, which is unusual for a top designer.
Trevor, looks good! You didn't make the mistake I made, you pre-drilled the holes for the bolts onto the bulkhead sections. :-)... I also noticed that the stems are very broad. I wonder why myself. Seems like even if they are rounded they would just cut into waves less finely than a sharp entry, but who knows, maybe more flotation up front?
Thank GOD christmas is finally over... I was gonna do some serious building this weekend but we got whacked with 23" of snow... if the dam economy would improve I could move to Florida!!!! So I wound up just rounding the outer "false" stems, drilling the holes, and making some last minute improvements. I have decided to fiberglass the bottoms of the hulls with 6 oz glass. I have plenty of graphite powder, but I wonder about UV resistance since if I graphite it I won't paint it, and the hulls will be bottoms up on top of my car fairly often, I wonder if the graphite will be so opaque as to stop UV degradation, or if I'm just being paranoid about it anyway...
I have also decided to glass the chines where the bulkhead meets the sides of the hull, the bulkhead which contains the bolt holes, that is. I am a little concerned about the strength of that joint, especially since I used gorilla glue and have heard bad things about the stuff lately...However, this necessitated that I curve the chine into a 1/4 inch radius to take the glass. I am now concerned about too big a gap causing water resistance! Maybe I'll put some epoxy and filler over the glass, then sand it square again? Or am I overbuilding and being overly paranoid about water resistance? sigh... I think I might wind up with another tank, like i did with my cartopper... :-)...
I also went to the woods by me over the weekend and harvested some fallen wood. I got a piece of pine, cedar (I think), and birch. The cedar turned out to be rotted (it was a pretty old piece), and the pine is less than straight, but the birch is a really nice piece of wood. I think I will use it for the hollow crossbeams. Still not sure whether I am saving money once gas is figured in, but hey, it was a new experience... I just need to find some nice fallen cedar somewhere and it will really be worth it...
I've also made some decisions about the sails/rigging. I will use my current cartopper lugsail, but make another as well and do a schooner arrangement like the guy who built the wa'apa in ghana did. He has no rudder, just steers with the sheets and balances it by moving the leeboard forward or back. I think that I will make two leeboards however, in tandem arrangement. I will rout out a vertical channel where the bolt goes, so that if I want I can not only move the leeboards forward and back but also up and down (until I find an ideal arrangement for each of the possible configurations I have...). I never really considered a shunting boat, but it seems that with the schooner rig, shunting would be extremely simple, and the advantage would be that I could always hang out on the comfortable tramp no matter what point of sail I'm on, instead of just half the time. I told my buddy about not even bothering to build a rudder, he said I better have life insurance to sail a "rudderless ship" haha... I am a little concerned about all those minute adjustments to the tiller that are made when sailing up and down swells, and how that could be done with sails and leeboards alone, or if they even need to be made, but people swear that a rudder isn't necessary, just a steering paddle for emergency fast maneuvers...
here's a couple pics of today's progress.
i'm using PL Premium for the glue on mine. it has held up to a good hard summer of abuse on my sailing dinghy. but, i plan to glass/tape the outside bottom six inches or so and then coat a layer of epoxy over the whole outside, before painting. i'm also deviating in that i'm probably going to go with straight iakos and a foam ama. i plan to fair and waterproof the bulkheads with automotive bondo. i also plan to have flat decks with box-type hatches like on a malibu outrigger and most of jim michalak's designs (also where i got the bondo idea, during a conversation with him in oklahoma this past october).
One of the concerns with tris is burying the bows when pushing the boat hard. If you put the maximum beam of the amas forward, as the boat heels it tends for this, and other reasons, to adopt a bow-up attitude, which helps keep its noses above the waves. But as the Shuttleworth article referenced above explains, there is a lot more to it than that. Another reason for rocker is to reduce wetted surface in light airs.I still have not yet processed ama rocker. Most of the rocker on the new amma shapes starts at the middle of the ama then slopes back, right? What is the function of that?
Looks great trevor I def see why you are stoked! So I guess you are building the 16' version in 1 piece, not the bolt together version? What kind of ply is that?
haha btw your use of the word stoked tells me you might be a surfer... if so, so am I, in fact the project that got me into boat building was initially building my own hollow wooden surfboard. I must have been a polynesian in a former life ... my next next project is a cedar SUP board, got a shareware template online from grainsurf...
i was a surfer (but not a very good one). it's been a long time, though. i moved out of florida when i was 22, i'm now a highly immature 38. a little vernacular hangs on from your youth on occasion.
i'm building the 16' in two pieces. the ply is sureply underlayment. i'd love to build a surfboard if i move back to florida some time. i have a cousin in st. augustine that shapes a bit and surfs often. i'm currently trying to talk him into building an outrigger, also. i bought him the book last year for christmas to give him a push. i also emailed him a link to this thread a few days ago.
you will definitely have to keep me updated on the SUP board. i'd really like one for summertime at the lake, when there's no wind.
I'm getting excited for you just looking at the pic. Nice job. I bet my 12 foot amas would be just about right on it and the hull would be big enough for two crew. Who needs a Hobie?
Last edited by JimD; 12-28-2010 at 10:32 PM.
i think the 16' hull is optimum for a single individual, but can sail two or maybe even three up (depending on size) in a pinch. you just have to watch your weight distribution. no cozying up towards the stern. but, that's another reason i'm building the boat. there wasn't an option on my 8' sailing dinghy. when this is done i can take my wife or a friend along. which will be nice. the amas designed for the 16' wa'apa are just under 12', so yeah, they would probably work for a tri version.
ps. as for a hobie, if i were given one or could score one very cheaply, i would take it. but, that wouldn't deter me from my current build. it would just be another water toy in the collection.
Have u decided on a steering arrangement yet trefor?
Here's a pic of my first DIY project, essentially a strip-built longboard. Got me into building boats next.
nice! it's kind of funboard shaped. very cool. you could almost scale that up for a SUP board.
My next stupid question: Anyone ever hear of a Hobie turned into tri by just putting a center hull where the tramp is?Originally Posted by JimD
A question re the beam on Hobies and other similar beach/performance type cats: What happens when you widen the beam a couple feet to say around 10 feet? Somebody must have tried this already...
I've never heard of anyone doing it. Tornados are 10' wide, but they're made that way. 10' beams that will hold up big powerful rigs are non-trivial to construct.
(1) Standing lugs are easy up and easy down. They can be tuned with an outhaul and a downhaul but I tend to leave the outhaul be since wind strength varies so much I haven't seen the sense in adjusting sail draft all the time. The downhaul is very important, and even a small lug needs a 2:1 I think. A good parrel system has to be worked out. I tried a couple and am unhappy. I am now going to try the one that DaVID Nichols shows on p.63, FIG. 6-07 of The Working Guide to Traditional Small Craft -- Halyard snapped to heel of yard, around mast (= parrel function), clips into the halyward attachment point recommended for that rig, and goes up to the masthead. It seems functional and elegant.
(2) Choose boom and yard stiffness well. I tried a one inch marine aluminum spar last summer on my main yard (54 square foot lug), and just when the wind got exciting at 10-15 mph the spar flexed, flattened sail, and I lost performance (and for my dull senses to detect a performance loss, you know it was real). So, spar bending is great for power control but when the control engages is the question. I went back to my old stiff douglas fir spar. Weight aloft is not as big a concern on an outrigger as for a mono. Eventually I will get a bigger aluminum spar I guess just to match my others. But you don't want to invest so much money into spars until you know what effect their bend will have.
(3) If the lug is loose-footed, boom-bend will induce draft at the wrong time, so I think a stiff boom is good first choice. If sail foot is laced to boom, same issues as for the yardarm.
(4) Sheet attachment: same as for the boom issues: if the sheet pulls boom down somewhere in the middle on loose footed sail, draft is induced maybe at the wrong time. I run 2:1 sheet from traveler rope, long boom to the tack, down to deck, and bacf aft to me. Costs some blocks and deadeyes, but the boomis less affected, and the lines stay out of the way if you do it right.
(5) A lug needs a stiff mast; mast bend will induce draft unlike the case for some marconi sails, which will flatten and dump power (=good when planned for).
(6) if you have sails designed, your sailmakerwill ask you all these questions to plan for sail shape; if he or she does not, they are no sail maker. Todd Bradshaw asked me all the good questions and more.
(7) The standing lug is not the best sail for windward work: plan on 55 degrees *made good* -- pointing ability does not mean much if the boat makes a lot of leeway -- if your boards are good, and just accept ther gift if it does better. But it is a great all-around sail. Put tell-tales on it, midchord and trailing edge.
(8) The main sail will back-wind the mizzen sail. On a cat-ketch that means more power loss because more (relatively) power is invested in the relatively large mizzen sail. You already loose some windward drive from the low-aspect ratios, but also the boat sails flatter because of less heeling angle, but the shorter rig looses some power because the (on small boats) sail COE's are lower than that 12 feet of height over water where the wind starts becoming really useful. You can add and subtract it all up, and let me know what you come up with :-)
The adage for multihulls is, "going very fast on a close reach is better than sailing higher and more slowly on a beat." You may get to your windward destination just as quickly. But if you need to get higher because of leeshore or obstacles, well, that's too bad. I can pinch up and crawl at 3 knots around some stuff (at New Haven ramp, wind on ramp gives option of tacking into fishing pier and angry fisherfolk to port, and or rocks at the end of the short beach to starboard -- so I sometimes paddle out into teeth of wind), and on small boats the paddle is always there if you did not block up paddling room with all sorts of permanent aka-stuff such as side seats (make them fold aside easily for paddling).
(9) The mizzen needs to be sheeted in flatter than the main, so it looses some drive. On downwind course, it blankets the main. Wing and wing helps if you can maintain it; I seldom can, boat yaws eventually and mizzen gybes). However, I found the best downwind course is a tacking course, broad reach to broad reach or close to it. The boat goes faster, the gybes on a small lugs are not too bad (and gybes have less force the faster you go as apparent wind drops, so sail fast then gybe), and in general life seems better going downwind in tacks.
(10) Of course the mizzen is great to lie-to in a squall, or just to relax and eat your lunch bow to waves. When something breaks (usually not mizzen stuff) the mizzen is there to control the boat while you do repair. But....
I broached a month ago in rough water and stiff wind (my hand slipped off the tiller), and the boat spun very quickly perhaps because the mizzen (the small one, jibheaded) was sheeted in hard and the main boom (small 37 lug) was let out -- that might be dangerous combination. But I survived and the boat then turned bow-up on the mizzen -- all happening in a few seconds. Not sure if mizzen aided this near disaster -- boats do broach after all, without mizzens -- but it helped with it afterward. And in general the mizzen has been a good autopilot to bring boat automatically into wind.
(11) The mizzen is generally sheeted in hard to the canoe stern -- no big traveler span available. You thus need to remember to sheet it out if you come to a reach. The boat will keep going and so it can lull you into inattention to the mizzen which is behind you, unlike a main and jib, always in your eyes. Develop cat-ketch habits. If you sit on a side seat, this is not a big problem. If you sail from cockpit (on trimaran tack) it might be.
(12) The ketch-mizzen is big enough to be main sail in heavy weather, which is great. I went out in SCA weather last month (the broach) with 37 s.f. mizzen shifted to main, and 20 foot mizzen marconi raised -- excellent combination. It would help to have the smaller mizzen somehow ready to raise very quickly if you were changing sails on the water.
(13) Lucky number 13! You might ask if you can get much of the good stuff above with a cat-yawl, and reduce some windward power loss problematic to the cat-ketch. People say you can. Ask me next summer. My outrigger Short Dragon will continue as a diverse testbed as I intended it , one of the things I intended that turned out as planned :-) I built him with four mast steps, but now find I had not enough imagination to add a far-aft 5th step.
So I am going to add another step for the mizzen further aft so that the boom of my 114 sf balanced lug (off a Bolger Windsprint) will clear it, and I will raise as mizzen my small 20 foot marconi (or jibheaded, whatever). I tried last summer the big lug in 15-20 mph wind and the boat just flew but the taller sail obviously pushed the ama down; try 10 knots with the ama under water for bizarre excitement. But the outrigger was harder to control; it would not head up as easily without the mizzen, and it would tend to fall off and start going again without constant attention. It had light weather helm, perhaps too light. But I really missed a mizzen, so I will try that arrangement eventually. (I was going to try this for the Everglades Challenge -- great for light air -- but decided I should go with my old rig seeing as the EC will be offering plenty of 'challenge' and a new rig is not the time for that.)
(14) I have tried the cat-ketch with a small 20 foot jib set on a de-riggable boom, but not enough so that I can confidently comment on it. The sail is fine; I am talking about learning a 3-sail set of good habits. Three sails to keep track of on a small pitching, wobbling outrigger ..... I don't know. The jib is less accomodating to poor sailing than the lug, and so it does keep you honest. I will be bringing it to the EC, anyway since the days I did not bring it with me this summer tended to end up light winded, and I missed the extra push. --Wade
Last edited by wtarzia; 12-29-2010 at 01:12 PM.
Chris Ostlind -- nice boat, that new 15 foot trimaran you designed! Some wooden competition for the Weta?
Last edited by wtarzia; 12-29-2010 at 01:29 PM.
I have found very good results using a rooftop luggage strap from home depot for a downhaul. It is basically a length of nylon webbing with a 1 way metal fastener, but no ratchet. Extremely simple, easier to adjust than a block and cleat, prob can get a bit tighter too. As far as the parrel system, I am using Mike Storer's getup it is very simple (halyard acts as parrel) and works well for me.
By giving the yard a 45 degree angle, I have had decent upwind performance prob because of the higher aspect ratio. Also, in light air I notice that often only the very top triangle of sail is filled with wind, I guess above that 12 ft mark that Wade mentioned...
Haha and like Wade, who is more modest about his sailing experience than I think he needs to be, I am no expert but can only attest to the pleasurable days on the water I had this summer, occasionally with the perception altering effects of beer :-)
--- The halyard-parrel system I found in Nichols is the same as on Storer's site, so I feel extra better about it. In general I like Storer's rigging tips, and my main sheet runs more or less like his, with mine carried to the boom gooseneck to avoid bending my boom. I love the simplicity of some of his advice, such as the simple loop to hold boom to mast. -- Wade
Took a look at the Hobie 16 for sale. There was one mushy spot on the port hull but overall I think its probably worth the money. But don't think I'll buy it. What I really want is a multihull with some serious beam, hull volume, and stability, and that's not a HobieCat. I think what I want is at least one Tamanu hull, maybe two.
Last edited by JimD; 12-29-2010 at 03:55 PM.
look at a wharram hitia 17 if you want a stable catamaran. i have an online acquaintance that sails one in whirral, england. probably about as tidal and cold watered as where you live. he camp cruises with it regularly.
One option for a seriously large but simple build is to stretch out dierking's wa'apa to 32 ft, in two 16' bolt together sections. He told me he thinks it is structurally fine, and I imagine it would really fly with that long waterline but still be very seaworthy and easy to handle with a smallish, simple triangular hawaiin sail, like some OC6's have. If I wasn't bound to cartopping I would def have done that option...
I can trailer or cartop on the pickup truck which I currently have set up to carry two kayaks. In fact at the moment I'm set up to put two kayaks on top of the truck and tow the monohull sailboat on the trailer behind. I could even throw the inflatable dinghy on there and transport four boats at once. I also have a small utility trailer which could be easily modified.
Last edited by JimD; 12-29-2010 at 06:55 PM.