Page 3 of 100 FirstFirst ... 2341353 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 105 of 3478

Thread: The outrigger and proa thread

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    16

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    isn't there a texas proa championships?
    Yes! And you're invited. So is everyone else.

    2008 report:
    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/2...08-Race-Report

    2009 report:
    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/1...09-Race-Report

    2010 report:
    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/3...onships-report

    2011 race announcement:
    http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/1...-Championships

    Come out and sail!

    K O'N

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    springfield, missouri, usa
    Posts
    571

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by K O'N View Post
    Yes! And you're invited. So is everyone else.

    Come out and sail!

    K O'N
    does it include tacking outriggers? or is it shunting specific? just curious. i'd love to have the chance to see multiple outriggers on the water sometime. either shunting or tacking.

    trevor

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    springfield, missouri, usa
    Posts
    571

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    sorry, i just read the 2011 race post and answered my own question. it's for shunters. i figured as much, with the name proa championships. it's cool to see the variety of boats in the previous race photos. every setup looks experimental and a little beyond my comprehension. but in a cool way.

    trevor

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    northern new jersey, usa
    Posts
    796

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    K O'N you make me wish I lived in Texas!

    your story on the texas 200 was excellent, good reading and informative too.

    It is really amazing how the internet is helping make proas/outriggers more and more popular. The outrigger "revolution" that really started in Hawaii in the (90's?) has spread, I recently discovered there is an OC club right across the Hudson river from me!

    http://www.newyorkoutrigger.org/welcome

    Of course, it seems most OC events are paddle-only, but a few have sails... I saw some videos/photos and man, paddling the Molokai channel in an outrigger looks like fuuuuuuuun (huge swells to surf down) and similar conditions can be present in the Northeast US during storm systems/etc... Anyway, thanks to the internet, I have discovered there is an OC6 not far from me, whose owner is always looking for crew.

    So much interesting stuff going on in the OC world right now, and so much overlap too, it amazes me... haha although my goal has always been to sail/cruise, it certainly can't hurt to learn some serious paddling skills either, right?

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Somewhere in South Central PA
    Posts
    3,350

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    When the Maynard family sailed around the world in their Spray replica, Scud, Gary picked up a ~10 ft dugout sailing proa in Bali. Gary said it was used as a small harbor fishing canoe, if I recall correctly. He brought it out to Martha's Vineyard one summer (about 1981?). It had a small triangular sail made of flour sacks. It was hoisted on a short mast, like a lateen sail on a Sunfish, except there was a line attached to the forward corner to control the vertical angle of the sail. The sail was supposed to be more vertical going upwind and less vertical off the wind. There was no rudder, just a paddle you held against the lee side as a combination lee-board/rudder in the corner between the hull and the forward edge of the aft cross piece.

    I got to sail it for an afternoon on a salt pond on the south side of the Island. It was a lot of fun and pretty quick for such a small, simple boat. A very organic experience sitting on the edge of the narrow main hull with my knees in my chest and only a few inches of freeboard.

    Brian

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    North Shore, Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    2,411

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Can any of you shed any light on the mystery of the lee side 'Kiribati Dimple'?

    If I get around to building a proa then a little hull asymmetry would seem sensible to produce a boat that makes little leeway, and the dimple seems to be an excellent way of achieving that asymmetry and also reducing drag. However, I have no idea how big an indentation is required, or how to transition from the convex hull shape into the concave dimple without making the change either too abrupt as to be unfair or so fair that it's effect is reduced. While the boat in the Auckland museum from which I draw inspiration is asymmetrical, I could see no dimple.

    If you've no idea what I'm talking about, then I suggest you read this: Harmen Hielkema on hull asymmetry.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,928

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    The Kiribati dimple is intriguing. If water were compressible, then there might be little mystery: you narrow the hull where the shockwave forms to reduce the speed of the airflow. But in an incompressible medium, I am confused. Perhaps the dimple influences transverse shockwaves (what we call waves), thus affecting wave-making drag? It deserves some flow tests and theorizing, as much as sails deserve wind tunnel tests! -- Wade

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    16

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    does it include tacking outriggers? or is it shunting specific? just curious. i'd love to have the chance to see multiple outriggers on the water sometime. either shunting or tacking.

    trevor
    The proa race is for proas, which have to shunt. But if someone with a tacking outrigger were to show up I doubt very seriously we'd send them packing, we'd certainly let them race and decide about listing the results later.

    I keep hoping the guy with Flaquita will come, or someone with an Ulua or a Wa'apa.

    K O'N

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Brunswick, Maine
    Posts
    1,193

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Anyone here built or sailed a Dierking T-2? It's such a sleek looking design, especially with the Euell Gibbons rig.
    Last edited by Rob Hazard; 12-22-2010 at 08:58 PM. Reason: spelling

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,928

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I sailed aboard Carlos Solanilla's version of the T2 for a day. I haven't seen him on this thread yet, though. We sailed it as a tacking double-outrigger despite the asymetric hull. It did work that way, oddly enough, though the wind was light and we didn't have much of a chance to check its performance that way. When he sailed it as a shunting proa it was pretty fast. -- Wade

  11. #81
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    springfield, missouri, usa
    Posts
    571

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by K O'N View Post
    The proa race is for proas, which have to shunt. But if someone with a tacking outrigger were to show up I doubt very seriously we'd send them packing, we'd certainly let them race and decide about listing the results later.

    I keep hoping the guy with Flaquita will come, or someone with an Ulua or a Wa'apa.

    K O'N

    well, maybe when i get my wa'apa done and can afford to travel and have a "real" sail made for it. i'm sure the first one will be on par with the two crude blue tarp sails i fashioned for my 8' sailing dinghy last year. from what i've seen of other participants, it'd be the cheapest and lowest tech boat there.

    trevor

  12. #82
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    northern new jersey, usa
    Posts
    796

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    trevor, as far as low tech sails go, I must recommend to you canvas "painter's tarp" that you can buy at any big box store quite cheaply. A 70 square ft. lugsail I recently built costed $30 US.



    Lot's of people get insulted on this forum when anyone suggests using cotton canvas, but as I always say, it has been in use for thousands of years and works very well. I am no expert sailmaker, haha as you can prob tell from the photo above, but the sail works very well. The biggest advantage I have found with the canvas is, paradoxically to any sailor, its stretchiness. You really don't have to sew in any luff, darts, or seams, just sew it straight, in exactly the 2-D shape you want, perhaps with a bolt rope on the edges, and the natural stretch of the material forms just the right amount of scoop. So easy! Is dacron higher performance? yes. But really not by that much unless you are racing. And the canvas is so much more beautiful and pleasant to work with than polytarp! If you screw up big time (like I did on my first sail), you can just make another for $30!

  13. #83
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,928

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    You can also use plastic tarps, which probably do not stretch as much as cotton. A couple of darts and some luff-rounding puts some shape. Todd Bradshaw has some instructions around someplace about making a serious sail out of tarp. Tarp stretches eventually but it is pretty strong. You can even get white polytarp if you look -- I got some at a West Marine store a few years ago, but then made the decision to buy professional dacron sails. With white tarp you will be less likely to be pulled over for an Coast Guard inspection :-) I also went with the flat-cut cotton painter's cloth route once, on a sprit sail I intended only for down-wind courses on my old dory after a rowing outing. It does have the classic look, in any event. But I vote for white poly tarp. if you go with a traditional crabclaw sail, you can induce some sail shape with the windward brailing line used delicately during light winds -- an extra half-knot or so. In brisker winds it won't matter too much, the crabclaw isn't going to get you too high anyway. But many fast close-reaches (which a flat-cut crabclaw excells at) are more fun than slow pinchings-up. --Wade

  14. #84
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    springfield, missouri, usa
    Posts
    571

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    thanks for the suggestion of canvas sails. though, i'm really not too embarrassed by the use of polytarp. after downloading a couple hundred outrigger and proa reference photos from the web, it seems to be a standard working sail material in most of the areas these craft are native too. if it's good enough for many an island fisherman to make a living by, then it's just fine for me on an afternoon of lake sailing.

    is that a cartopper? i sailed one a couple months ago and really liked it. i gave it some thought before fully committing to the wa'apa. the boat i built last winter was a bolger elegant punt. which is not a great sailing/rowing boat, but it got my feet wet in sailing and building.

    trevor

  15. #85
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    springfield, missouri, usa
    Posts
    571

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    wade,

    if i remember correctly, on the yahoo proafile site (or maybe it was here) you mentioned once that you were thinking of restoring your original proa. did you ever get around to it?

    trevor

  16. #86
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    26,450

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    I would imagine a canvas sail stretches around the CE of the sail, which does not create an efficient foil. As for polytarp, if you're going to cut so called 'darts' then it isn't much more work to cut proper panel shapes for an efficient foil shape. That's what I did for our pram dinghy and I'd wager it is almost as efficient a sail as anything one could buy professionally designed.
    Last edited by JimD; 12-23-2010 at 11:13 AM.

  17. #87
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,928

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    ...if i remember correctly, on the yahoo proafile site (or maybe it was here) you mentioned once that you were thinking of restoring your original proa. did you ever get around to it? ...
    --- You recall correctly. It was a misguided sentimental idea as I already have no room for more boats :-) and I did not finish. I sawed stuff off and began prepping to join the formerly two-piece bolt-up hull into a one 14 foot hull, but I stopped there as time came to start my Everglades Challenge modifications to the current outrigger. It is under a quarter inch of frost in backyard, but I will probably get back to it, because I want to see that hull made as it should have been from the start, and who knows, maybe I can give it away to a proto-proa person someday, better than letting that good marine plywood decay. -- Wade

  18. #88
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,928

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    A free-style poem for the proa hobbyist, written while modifying my first proa (cutting stuff out to lighten it after over-building it in the "over-building" years of a rank amateur):

    The Hobbyist

    The basement workshop reeks
    of dreams curing, hardening,
    stiffening with time; not
    the horror of mythological curse
    but just a boat fashioned
    by the magic of epoxy and bronze
    nails. The Greeks believed in
    an age of bronze, and iron, and gold--
    I believe in ring nails and plywood
    and chemicals part A and part B--
    still, myths have often told of fire and ice,
    earth and sky, death and life,
    so who’s to say this creature
    forming under chemical halves
    and hammer strokes sounding
    like the strife of elements
    has no element of myth?

    But I feared no tale would bring this boat
    to Puluwat to rest
    on sand or water, or to part
    the lagoon or pierce
    open ocean swell. I had no
    breadfruit tree, nor a seashell adz,
    nor the songs for magic or work.
    Still -- I had a vision that

    Rotowe once stepped on
    a splinter and cursed
    in the boat-house, and old
    Mau sighting along a hull plank,
    ready for lashing didn’t blink
    but said, “Didn’t I say
    to sweep that mess aside?”

    The basement workshop hurts too
    my feet sometimes as wood
    chips embed in foot flesh.
    For in a snowstorm
    of sweat, dust, saw, adz, sander
    I had made a cement-floored boat-house
    and Dad dead long ago but peering
    through his old eyeglasses
    I have always hung on my workshop walls
    mnemonically mutters about that floor,
    and Mau whispers, “Didn’t you listen to your elders?”
    Then I was not afraid, and turned back to bench.


  19. #89
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    northern new jersey, usa
    Posts
    796

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I would imagine a canvas sail stretches around the CE of the sail, which does not create an efficient foil.
    I mean, I've sailed plenty of dacron sailed boats, and of course the dacron is somewhat more efficient (mostly because it is low stretch and the exact shape of the foil can be controlled in the cut) but on traditional non-bermuda low aspect sails (like a lug), I am not sure how much difference foil shape really makes. In fact, even on high aspect bermuda rigs I seriously doubt that moving the foil's deepest point forward of the CE slightly makes a huge difference for a non-racer... don't get me wrong, dacron is the most efficient sail material, but even if it gives me a half knot more speed (at best IMHO) and somewhat better acceleration the cost and complication of sewing it just isn't worth it to me (I prefer working with wood, I'm def not a seamstress :-)... my 2 cents and worth every penny

    Trevor yes that is a cartopper. It is a wonderful and fun little boat. Surprisingly seaworthy and dry too. My current limitation is that anything I build must be cartopped (nowhere to put a trailer- wade know how that is!). So the only way to get a bigger boat than the cartopper is to build an outrigger!

  20. #90
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    northern new jersey, usa
    Posts
    796

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    BTW on another thread I was informed that alot of people go to the woods nearest them and harvest downed trees (mostly cedar) for use as lumber. What a wonderful, cost saving idea! Haha maybe I'll even try a dugout ;-) how's that for traditional?

  21. #91
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    northern new jersey, usa
    Posts
    796

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Wade are you doing the EC this year? What mods are you doing to prep for it? I may want to do it myself, when is the registration and date for it if you know? (watertribe's website can be confusing sometimes)

  22. #92
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    northern new jersey, usa
    Posts
    796

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    oh nevermind they redid the website much clearer

  23. #93
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,928

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    BTW on another thread I was informed that alot of people go to the woods nearest them and harvest downed trees (mostly cedar) for use as lumber. What a wonderful, cost saving idea! Haha maybe I'll even try a dugout ;-) how's that for traditional?
    --- There's a guy here on the Connecticut shore, Forrest Lowry, who is building a dug-out proa from a big tree he felled on his family property, and plans to go as traditional as possible, including lashed on planks. He is saving time by chanin-sawing the bulk of it out (which Iguess is sort of traditional now even in the Pacific!). -- Wade

  24. #94
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,928

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Wade are you doing the EC this year? What mods are you doing to prep for it? I may want to do it myself, when is the registration and date for it if you know? (watertribe's website can be confusing sometimes)
    --- I am signed up for the 2011 EC and plan to go if acts of gods do not prevent. I have somuch frickin' money invested in boat and gear and imagination that I if don't go I will become clinically depressed. Modifications:

    (1) The big one: I am using the two inflatable amas (400 lbs + displacement each) for a trimaran configuration. I am building a new set of curved box-beam akas to drop them down (see my youtube video from early december to see how much I need to lower the amas)

    (2) Last spring I added watertight chambers except for 40 inches of cockpit. The big deck hatch will let bme stow the sleeping bag and big food bags for the EC.

    (3) I got a jib and small mizzen from Todd Bradshaw to multiply rigging options. Thus: I sailed in small craft advisory conditions a month ago with the tiny mizzen (20) , and my lug mizzen (37) moved to the main, and proved to myself that the boat was very well controlled in that mode, through some very rough water. But otherwise the tiny mizzen will be stowed. The jib adds a little drive and makes another heavy-air option with the main dropped and mizzen left up (this summer my main halyard broke, so I got the chance to finish the last mile of the cruise on jib and mizzen, and it worked even though the jib was a bit slack without sheet tension on the main mast; I have a long jib halyard though which can be run back to the aft ama like a running back-stay). I want to add a permanent short-bow-sprit and change to a balanced jib because stowing the long sprit was clunky.

    (4) the canoe is in the garage now to get a PVC mast tube to totally seal off the bow compartment and to make getting th main mast out and in easier, since the EC requires some de-rigging at some bridges.

    (5) Get back to gym. I started a gym membership for EC 2009 and kept at it, but this summer and fall I really fell off a regular schedule. Must get back for general tone before March; two months is barely enough time for that.

    (6) Lots of little things to keep me busy before March, such as re-rerunning sheets, pronviding for easy anchor stowage (right now it is in bag, rarely used, but on EC, I must assume I will be exhauted and need to get it out fast and collaspe exhausted), making light side-seats on akas that can flip aside instantly for paddling, and a filler-deck over footwell so I can sleep squeezed (literally) on the deck of the canoe if need be (5 inches of topsides will keep me in). Also, though I have a Gortex bivvy sack for sleeping in, I might provide for a simple boom tent so I do not have to wake up in pouring rain and somehow get out of the bivvy sack and keep its insides dry. And more.... This "little things" list is actually pretty daunting! I fear it far more than ther "bigger things" list. -- Wade

  25. #95
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    northern new jersey, usa
    Posts
    796

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Wow, sounds impressive! You have no crew?

  26. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    springfield, missouri, usa
    Posts
    571

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    Trevor yes that is a cartopper. It is a wonderful and fun little boat. Surprisingly seaworthy and dry too. My current limitation is that anything I build must be cartopped (nowhere to put a trailer- wade know how that is!). So the only way to get a bigger boat than the cartopper is to build an outrigger!
    i really liked the one i got to sail. it was the quickest boat of four that i got to sail at the oklahoma messabout in october. i sailed it, two PDRs and a michalak piccup pram that weekend. the PDRs were fun and ridiculously stable for an eight foot boat. after sailing my bolger EP all summer, they were really simple. the piccup pram was very solid and felt like it would make a good camping boat. the cartopper was the most fun to sail, though. it was surprisingly fast and just glided through the water without much wake.

    i have the same cartop limitations. i also have just a small one-car garage to build in.

    trevor

  27. #97
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    springfield, missouri, usa
    Posts
    571

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    wade,

    i'm looking forward to following your progress on the EC. with all your preparations and the event, best of luck to you, sir!

    trevor

  28. #98
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,928

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Peter -- No,no crew. I would have asked 2009 EC partner Carlos to come along but a 16 foot proa is way too small for a crew. I sailed it once on a lake in very light air with girlfriend and her little granddaughter, and though it worked, it was clearly a crowd.

    Trevor, thanks. I will be the least experienced contender there -- the skill level at an EC is truly impressive -- so it will be interesting. Aiming just to finish under the wire and have a few stories to tell! -- Wade

  29. #99
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    San Pedro, CA
    Posts
    737

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Wade,

    Unless you are a world class sailor, such as, Rolex Sailor of the Year, Randy Smyth, (and he still has a lot to pull together with his boat) you are going down there to get an idea as to how your rig, hull and attachment points can hold together in a wildly fluctuating set of conditions that will likely be quite a bit different than the ones you used to dial-in the boat prior to the road trip down to the launch. Do not, under any circumstances, view this as a terminal act that may lead to a failure of understanding of the basic conditions of the first leg of the journey. Like any coastal adventure cruise, there is much to comprehend and having the whole thing understood is as much a matter of luck, as it is design understanding and execution.

    Give yourself the pleasure of doing this as a learning experience and absorbing it in the same fashion. You are a very bright guy, Wade, and I hope that you will have a great time, no matter the outcome. Learn and come away from the EC as a person who has gone much, much further in the process than most of the readers here and hold that knowledge for future interests. Who knows, you may even finish the event in grand style and set a standard for dozens of followers.

    Me... I wish you all the good fortune allowed and look forward to your photos and trip reports with anxious interest.

    Your friend,

    Chris Ostlind
    Lunada Design

  30. #100
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,928

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Thanks Chris. I am focusing on getting there to start. So many little things can go wrong, as in 2009, when a month before the race I pulled a muscle in my back at the gym so badly I thought I had ruptured a disk! Three days of heat-packs flat on my back and girlfriend's chicken soup and I could walk again, but man, did that teach me about how easy it is to fail to make the start line. In the days before the race, I steered away in comic panic from anybody sneezing and coughing. I like what Alan Stewart (SOS, he and his partner built a 24 foot Dierking Wa'Apa and placed in good time) told me a few days ago: 'Don't drop out unless you break a bone or stab yourself in the eye. Rest, eat, sleep, and keep going.' Yes: even if I fail to reach a checkpoint on time and disqualify, I intend to finish the course to maintain the honor of outrigger craft and my personal education :-) -- Wade

  31. #101
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,992

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Some interesting reading on proa design here

    http://www.planet.fi/~kcad/cpc/Cruis...a_concepts.htm


  32. #102
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,992

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Duckworks Dec launchings has a piece about a new proa launching, with a video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxw3I...layer_embedded

    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/11/.../jan/index.htm

  33. #103
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,488

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Here's a neat little tacking proa.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lg2JxexuHI

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    26,450

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    There's a used Hobie cat 16 at what seems like a good price I'm going to be taking a look at in a few days. Anyone familiar enough with them to offer advice on what I should be looking at? Ie, are there points on these boats that are prone to wear and failure, etc? I would like to use it as the basis for a tri. For example, this Woods tri uses production 16 foot beach cat hulls for amas.


  35. #105
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    St. Charles, IL
    Posts
    1,139

    Default Re: The outrigger and proa thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    There's a used Hobie cat 16 at what seems like a good price I'm going to be taking a look at in a few days. Anyone familiar enough with them to offer advice on what I should be looking at? Ie, are there points on these boats that are prone to wear and failure, etc? I would like to use it as the basis for a tri. For example, this Woods tri uses production 16 foot beach cat hulls for amas.

    Check for hull delamination--especially on the decks. For your purposes, a non comptip mast would be better for making the sail reefable later. They can be had so cheaply, you can get a really complete one for less than a grand.

    Dan

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •