Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Margate, NJ
    Posts
    106

    Default New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    I was flipping through the pages of the newest issue of This Old House magazine last night, and I came across an article discussing the latest and greatest in green products. Listed here were three brands/types of wood, none of which I had ever heard of. They are Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo. The first two are new versions of tropical hardwoods, and the last is bamboo that is formed into dimensional lumber (LUMber bamBOO....LUMBOO).

    So, this morning I googled them, and while I'm not sure that they are going to revolutionize wooden boat building, I thought that I'd at least make a post about them in case any of you (like me) have never heard of them before.

    Accoya....it looks to be fast growing, sustainable, and rot resistant. Very eco friendly. The FAQ section on the site says that it would be ideal for boat decks and trimmings. It then goes on to say that this wood would not be good for underwater use in a saltwater environment. For me at least, this is a show stopper.

    Kebony...another tropical hardwood that is fast growing and sustainable. Rot resistance looks to be pretty good as well. Another eco friendly wood.

    On the projects page, they show this wood being used as decking material on two motor boats, one a pretty massive center console yacht, and the other some kind of tub-like, odd-shaped, comfort cruiser (that oddly fascinates me). This wood would be a good replacement for teak, and is called Marine Planking. It says that it is more durable than teak, and up to 50% harder than the best teak available.

    Lumboo is basically bamboo strips that are oriented to provide maximum strength, and come in uniform dimensional lumber sizes. They use a low VOC resin to adhere the strips together, and then tons of pressure to form the boards. Very fast growing, very sustainable.

    This "wood" also appears to be very cheap. A 1"x4"x8' is $5.00, and a 2"x4"x8' is $8.00. This "wood" is very rot resistance. Their websites touts that it will last 50 years above ground, and 25 years in the ground. I'm not sure how they tested this, but that's what they claim.

    I couldn't find any information (not that I looked very hard) about the workability of these woods. They may be easy to use, or they may be a bear on your tools. I'm not sure. However, I thought that I'd at least mention them on here, so that those that are much smarter than I in the ways of wooden boats (and that's pretty much all of you) can have a look for yourselves.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all of my American brothers and sisters.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,347

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    Very interesting!

    I do wonder, however, about all the "green" bamboo products that rely on resins (probably epoxies) to hold together and resist moisture and rot. It is my understanding that most bamboo is not very rot resistant in the natural state - I think that Kenjamin mentioned this in one of the earlier discussions on bamboo for boating.

    A boat built from bamboo saturated in epoxy may not really be a bamboo boat any more than a boat built from balsa wood saturated in epoxy and fiberglass cloth is a "wood" boat... The primary difference between the two would be the glass cloth.
    Last edited by Thorne; 11-24-2010 at 11:53 AM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Huntington, WV
    Posts
    960

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    I think that accoya was discussed on this board before - I'll search to see. There was an extensive discussion on some sort of new-fangled wood, just don't remember the name.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,347

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    It was but must have used another name than Accoya, as I can't find the thread. I think it was opened by someone in the Netherlands, and it turned out that there had been some boats built with that "wood" over there.

    http://www.accoya.com/accoya_faq.html

    Kebony appears to be another "structural laminated timber" product -
    "A Norwegian product called Kebony uses alcohol and sugar to harden wood such as beech, southern yellow pine, maple, Scots pine and ash permanently, so it becomes moisture- and insect-resistant, as well as weatherproof."
    from http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/f6e5b004-8...#axzz16DeoXf7o
    Last edited by Thorne; 11-24-2010 at 11:52 AM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Shubenacadie NS
    Posts
    4,926

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    I wonder how these "woods" finish and what they look like.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Chesapeake Beach, Md 20732 U.S.A.
    Posts
    26,724

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    I wonder about weight also.....
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
    ..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
    Live your life so that whenever you lose, you're ahead."
    "If you live life right, death is a joke as far as fear is concerned."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    4,492

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    We've just installed two new floors of laminated bamboo, joined by two flights of stairs of the same material, made the way Doyle says that 'lumboo' is made. While the floorboards were installed on a sub-floor on each level, the main stairs are load-bearing, supported only by two stringers of mountain ash.

    As Doyle says, the material is made from bamboo strips impregnated in some sort of resin. And yes, it is heavy. Also very dense and I think strong. I was told they cook the material once the strips are embedded in the resin, and that the process of doing so caramelises the sugar in the bamboo to give it a darker colour than you'd otherwise expect. Longer cooking time, darker colour. I wouldn't like to say what the percentage of bamboo to resin is -- pretty small, I should think.

    The flooorboards are normal (5/8"?) thickness, tongued-and-grooved on edge and ends, and in our case laid like an ordinary floating floor. But of course they're homogeneous all the way through, so unlike a normal floating floor they can be sanded and resanded till they wear through (not just till the surface veneer wears off.) I believe they can also be used as normal floorboards -- ie placed straight on joists, without a sub-floor -- but the lengths are (at least presently) limited to 6'.

    The stair-treads are laminated from boards about 1/4" thick, made the same way. And the plain, unlaminated, boards can be used for furniture-making, doors, etc.

    The stuff has polished up well, shows no sign of wear after three years, and overall we're very pleased with the result.

    In boatbuilding, you could perhaps use if for glued clinker construction, but because of the weight you'd want pretty thin planks -- 1/8" maybe. It would probably be good for dead wood or knees too. But I'd want to know more about its construction, strength, and durability in a marine environment before I'd consider using it this way.

    Photos

    Upper and lower staircase, and flooring --

    Flooring --

    Stair treads --

    (There is extra thickness added to these upper treads to maintain the riser height while reducing the gap between treads to allow for building code requirements.)

    And to answer Breakaway's question below about hardness, yes, I should certainly think so.

    Mike
    Last edited by Wooden Boat Fittings; 11-24-2010 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Photos added
    Visit us to see how we help people complete classic boats authentically.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    20,015

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    Must be hard on edge tools, no?

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Freeland, WA
    Posts
    28,291

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    Handsome stairs. You really need to finish unpacking,though. ;-)
    Gerard>
    ​Freeland, WA

    Be patriotic, save the country: next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level, they are all #Complicit.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    4,492

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    There's many a true word spoken in jest, Gerard -- I've been here five years now, and I still haven't succeeded in unpacking quite all of my books....

    Mike
    Visit us to see how we help people complete classic boats authentically.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    22,239

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    Quote Originally Posted by Wooden Boat Fittings View Post
    <snip>main stairs are load-bearing, supported only by two stringers of mountain ash.

    Stair treads --

    Mike
    What is "Mountain Ash" in Australia?

    Here it is Sorbus Aucuparia http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/trees/...-ash-trees.asp

    I've never seen one big enough, or clear enough, to make stringers from....
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    4,492

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    Ah, no. It's a eucalypt, PI -- nothing like a rowan and in no way related to it. It's E. regnans, the world's tallest hardwood (and flowering plant.) It can grow to over 400' high, although most mature trees these days are more like 300'. It's native to SE Australia, it can live to 500 years, and you could make stringers for Noah's Ark from one, without scarfing....

    Strength group C, 65 pcf, principal uses on land are building scantlings and flooring, and in boatbuilding it could be used for frames, deadwood, carlins, and suchlike.

    For marketing purposes, it's often lumped in along with two or three other similar local eucalypts under the name "Tasmanian Oak," but it's no more an oak than it is an ash. (Any eucalypt species with similar attributes can be called Tasmanian Oak -- it all depends on what the mills have been processing recently. But that's another story.)


    Mike
    Visit us to see how we help people complete classic boats authentically.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    22,239

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    Thanks - that makes sense.

    I did a hardwood parquet floor in my last house in "Tasmanian Oak" - light in weight and colour with some wild figure, but hard and stiff, nice stuff.
    I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    4,492

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    Sheesh, that was quick!

    It's usually not very figured, but light in weight and especially colour, certainly. (The stringers you 'quoted' in the photo above were stained to match the bamboo, which is as supplied.)

    Many of our deck fittings are often made from mountain ash. When varnished or oiled they take on a very pale honey colour. Here are some freshly-oiled fairleads, for instance --


    Mike
    Visit us to see how we help people complete classic boats authentically.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frisco, TX
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    That was me that started the previous thread mentioned by orbb (here). I am located in Dallas, TX, rather than the Netherlands. I can honestly say that Accoya is the "Gold Standard" for dimensional stability and durability. Fortunately, it's not over-the-top marketing claims. Acetylated wood has been known for almost 80 years. We're just the first company to develop a process that can scale and is economical. We've published quite a bit of third party data that supports our claims, too. The compendium of that information can be found here, but for ease of reference the most recent durability data is here, which is basically a rot resistance test. It was conducted at Scion, which is a forestry research institute in New Zealand. This link leads to dimensional stability testing that was conducted at SHR, a wood research organization in the Netherlands.

    Doyle007 had mentioned the fast growing nature of bamboo. In fact, we use sustainably sourced radiata pine, from New Zealand and Chile as FSC (Forestry Stewardship Council) certified, and it actually produces more biomass than bamboo. Bamboo typically produces about 11 to 15 m3/hectare/year, whereas radiata pine produces about 28 to 30. We've also published our greenhouse gas assessment (from forest to factory gate) here, conducted by Camco. One thing not typically accounted for in these types of assessments is this increased Mean Annual Increment [MAI], nor the shorter harvest cycle for radiata pine (22 to 30 years) versus a tropical hardwood (100+ years for good quality teak). Our yet to be published, life cycle assessment for a window and bridge made from Accoya show it to be comparable to a sustainably sourced tropical hardwood.

    Doyle007, the primary reason we do not focus on boat hulls is two-fold. First, just like most softwoods (excluding the spruces and other "water proof" woods), Accoya is permeable, thus it still soaks up water, the only difference is that Accoya will have a very much reduced swell character. For someone building boat where the wood swell is critical for sealing the hull, this could pose an issue. However, this property would also make it appealing for epoxy saturation or fiberglass epoxy applications. A great example of Accoya based boats are those built by Rick at Koo-boten, and occasional poster on the WoodenBoat forum. The second reason is that we don't want to mislead anyone about resistance against marine boring organisms. Yes, there is published research that shows Accoya to be an effective barrier against formosan termite attack and several marine boring crustaceans (@ the most recent European Conference on Wood Modification in Latvia [I can send a copy of this paper if you PM me]), but the litigious and regulatory aspects around these points make us very cautious.

    For a better idea of the types of applications it is currently being used in take a look here. You'll find the bulk is windows, doors and cladding, but you'll see our earliest projects were canal lining in the Netherlands. Just last week the second full heavy traffic bridge was installed in Sneek, the Netherlands. With all this mention of Europe, I just want to be clear that Accoya is available here in the US (thus our Dallas office) and our relationships with national distributors like Universal Forest Products, Upper Canada Sierra, and others.

    Hopefully, that all doesn't sound too self-serving. I just felt the need to share the knowledge I have. And now for something a bit more self serving ...this is a video interview I recently did at the US Green Building Council's GreenBuild Expo in Chicago for Charles & Hudson's Green Building blog. It has a good overview of the product.

    Regarding my own boat project, my frequent international travel, work schedule, and family life are keeping it at bay. I think I might be better able to sponsor a project with likes of this forum's readers than initiate my own construction. So if you think you have a great idea that could highlight the product, then I'd be interested in working together.
    Last edited by AccoyaBoat; 11-29-2010 at 11:28 AM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    16,347

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    Sounds like this sort of treated wood might be perfect for traditional lapstrake construction, where swelling isn't a vital part of the hull as it is for carvel designs. Even though bottom paints would have to be used to protect the wood against marine pests (just as for untreated wood), the rot resistance may be a very desirable element.

    How does the treatment impact other elements like overall strength, flexibility, and splitting along the grain? Are all the available treated planks flat-sawn, or are some quarter-sawn or rift-sawn?
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frisco, TX
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    If you PM me with you email, I can send a copy of a paper from the University of Gottingen and University of Portsmouth presented at the European Conference on Wood Modification 2010 where they studied the shipworm (Teredo navalis) and the gribble (Limnoria quadripunctata) and their attack on various modified wood types, including Accoya, amongst others. It didn't fair too bad.

    If you look at the prior post, I put some of the info you mentioned there. For the most part the MOE and MOR are retained from the base radiata pine. There is a significant enhancement to the Janka hardness (~+40%), resulting in a hardness comparable to teak. There is a picture in the previous post of an extreme example of a steam bent sample. For the most part we don't sell based on grain orientation, so within a particular grade (which relates to clarity, i.e. knots, pitch pockets, pith, etc) you're likely to have a mix of grain orientations.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Blue Hill, ME
    Posts
    1,062

    Default Re: New woods : Accoya, Kebony, and Lumboo

    I'm resurrecting another old thread to see if there has been anyone using Accoya for boat building. I was ordering DF from a local yard and he mentioned that he could get Accoya. I didn't know anything about it, and a quick Google search led me back to this forum. I haven't seen much else, boat-wise, on the internet. But it must be good stuff because on the Accoya web site it shows a 21' launch and states: "The sharp bow cuts smoothly through the water and comfortably sleeps up to eight people."

    So, any recent thoughts on the stuff?
    Steve B
    Sjogin IIIa
    PAYTON 13' Pea Pod

    RIVUS 16' Melonseed


    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •