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Thread: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

  1. #1
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    Default NEW...Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 2/8/2011

    Greeting fellow Sjogin enthusiasts...

    I thought I'd start a new thread to update the progress on plans development for Sjogin, Russ Manheimer's sweet little Scandinavian work boat. . . see below:



    PREVIOUS THREADS ON SJOGIN....................................

    The Original Sjogin Thread:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ghlight=Sjogin

    The measurement of Sjogin:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ghlight=Sjogin



    First off, thanks to all interested parties who have sent in their deposit to Mr Gartside... you have made this possible. I thank you and Russ thanks you.

    Second, lets all thank Russ and his team who per Mr Gartside, "did a great job in taking the lines off of "Sjogin". Their quaity work has made plans development for Sjogin possible at a very high level of quality.

    Finally, the update... Paul Gartside has finished the initial lines from the measurements taken by Russ et al... and you can see them here:



    Paul mentioned to me that he was waiting for more measurements from Russ to continue the work, which should happen very soon. One comment he made was that the keel shape obviously was modified (added on to) and that he would sort that out when completing the final lines. . . ie., balance the design with its appropriate ballast and hull shape. He will base this on his design expertise and on Russ's comments on how the original sails now.

    So... the plans development is progressing well, and Mr Gartside will complete the drawings for the original "Sjogin" in the near future. After the plans for the traditional built Sjogin are complete (lines plan, construction drawing, sail plan, etc... the participants in this project are certainly welcomed to have input on exactly what the glued ply lap version will entail.

    Naturally the starting point will be as described in the initial Sjogin thread... a very similar design/(copy) of the original, but drawn for glued ply lap construction. Investors please feel free to email me any comments you may have in addition to posting them here. If all the investors agree, then Paul will design the glued ply lap version to pretty much be identical to the original. If the investors agree on some changes such as increasing accomodaitons room below decks and/or any other suggestions for better performance without changing her appeal, then those can be incorporated into the design. The original thread did state the glued ply lap version was to be a copy of the original and that was the premise which caused all the investors to decide to participate... but before Paul starts work on that part of the plans development, he suggested I get some feedback from the investors to see if any consensus may be reached on the criteria of the design if any different than the original. He mentioned ... keel shap and sailplan ... , etc... to achieve a balanced design.

    I will say that Sjogin is a visual "home run" and that any departure from her may only diminish her overall appeal. I also started this entire project because I was taken with Sjogin's beauty... and wanted a glued ply lap version for its ease of construction and ability to withstand a warm climate without degrading, etc etc. . It should be said that if anyone can make some changes (to increase head room or interior space or increase performance and control, etc) while maintaining her visual appeal... the talented Paul Gartside certainly can.

    For any folks that may be interested in this project, it is still not too late to get the plans for Sjogin for $200.00 by sending in a $50.00 deposit to Paul Gartside. This price of $200 will change after the plans are completed to his standard stock plans pricing level ($350). As per the original thread, this project entails the plans for both traditional construction and glued ply lap construction of the marvelous "Sjogin" along with at least two sailplans, the original bermuda and also a gaff sloop version. Post any questions/comments on this thread. The link to the original thread is at the bottom of this post.

    Mailing Address:
    Paul Gartside Ltd.
    P.O. Box 1575
    Shelburne, Nova Scotia
    Canada. B0T 1W0

    Phone/Fax:
    902 875 2112
    e-mail:
    info@gartsideboats.com


    LINK TO ORIGINAL THREAD...

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ot-Sjogin-quot



    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 02-08-2011 at 08:38 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Thanks for the update Rod. I'm looking forward to seeing what Paul comes up with, keeping it as close to the original design, optimized for glued lap and any tweaks for performance that he advises. My issue will be trying to fit a 22' boat into a 21 1/2' workshop!
    Steve B
    TraditionalSmallCraftAssociation
    DowneastTSCA.org

    TraditionalSmallCraft.com
    RIVUS 16' Melonseed

    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Thanks Steve... Your comments noted.

    R

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Man, what a great offer. I think I'm going to bite.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Thanks for the update, Rod. I'm all for the glued-lap version to be as close to the original as possible. But I wonder if there has been any thought to a gaff yawl rig. Like on Oughtred's Eun Mara.


    Steven

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    I mentioned Russ's interest in a gaff/yawl rig to Mr Gartside early on and he said that was a straight forward drawing to complete if the interest was there. I got the impression that he did not want to make any definitive statements until he had a chance to see the lines of Sjogin...

    RodB

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Wow looks good so far. I'm interested in having the glued lap version be as close to the original Sjogin as possible. Thanks for the update I've been checking for it obsessively ever since Russ said he was waiting for the mail. Gerard

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Gerard,

    After another conversation with Paul, I can say that mostly his comments on changes were aimed at balancing the sailplan and the ballast keel to achieve decent performance and a balanced helm. Additionally, he suggested that the provision for a small diesel engine and shaft arrangement be included... and /or a small outboard well at minimum... depending on what the group agrees on. All investors comments are welcome... don't be shy. Other than these comments the glued ply lap version will be as close as possible to the original. Paul also mentioned that a larger version with a significant increase in accommodation will be a concept he will keep in mind for the future. A 30 foot Sjogin would certainly be a beautiful little cruiser and still be constructed with 1/2" ply for strakes.


    Personally, I like the idea of the provision for a diesel engine if one decides to build her that way...

    RodB

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Quote Originally Posted by RodB View Post
    Gerard,

    After another conversation with Paul, I can say that mostly his comments on changes were aimed at balancing the sailplan and the ballast keel to achieve decent performance and a balanced helm. Additionally, he suggested that the provision for a small diesel engine and shaft arrangement be included... and /or a small outboard well at minimum... depending on what the group agrees on. All investors comments are welcome... don't be shy. Other than these comments the glued ply lap version will be as close as possible to the original. Paul also mentioned that a larger version with a significant increase in accommodation will be a concept he will keep in mind for the future. A 30 foot Sjogin would certainly be a beautiful little cruiser and still be constructed with 1/2" ply for strakes.


    Personally, I like the idea of the provision for a diesel engine if one decides to build her that way...

    RodB
    I do hope that Paul is designing that ballast, rather than leaving it looking like an afterthought. I know you can't see it when she is in her element, but knowing that it is hanging there would irritate me.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Absolutely Nick, he will do exactly that after he as all the information to review the design. I'm have every confidence that Paul Gartside will do a bang up job utilizing his talent and experience to modify Sjogin to a properly designed sailing craft.

    RodB

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Anything going on below the waterline to help her sail better, or even to possibly give a bit of extra headroom for us tall folks, is welcome. For the inside, the look and feel of the existing Sjogin would be desirable of course, within the constraints of glued lap.

    Looking forward to seeing what comes out!
    It will all be OK in the end...so if it's not OK, you're not at the end.

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Quote Originally Posted by RodB View Post
    Absolutely Nick, he will do exactly that after he as all the information to review the design. I'm have every confidence that Paul Gartside will do a bang up job utilizing his talent and experience to modify Sjogin to a properly designed sailing craft.

    RodB
    Steady on. I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the wooden bit. Just that that pot belly needs toning.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    I think Paul is concerned about the "added on" ballast and most likely assumes some weather helm...

    RodB

  14. #14

    Cool Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    So folks I think that balancing the helm and getting the ballast worked out would certainly be good; especially if these improve performance giving builders some comfort on dark nights during the build when doubt nags. It also makes sense to me to make provision for an outboard well. I have no experience with inboard motors so won't comment except to wonder about increased expense and complexity.

    As for increasing headroom and accomodations no thanks; but then I live comfortably out of a tent,sleeping bag, and westy van for months at a time when I have the chance. A 30' Sjogin is wonderful to contemplate but way out of my league.

    Thanks Rod and Russ. Very excited at how this is going.

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Electric option? I know expensive and heavy, but possibly design the battery weight for internal ballast. Internal diesel (tanks, controls, shaft) moves it to different level, even an outboard is messy. If this is going to be dream vessel, I'd like to at least dream of quiet propulsion...which Sjogin already has.
    Steve B
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    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Here are pics of the Construction and Sail Plans received from Paul. I’ve asked Rod to post scans of same as it appears he was able to produce a clear image of the Lines Plans as shown above.




    It‘s very close. After I’ve had a chance to check some of the requested measurements it should be even closer. I think the coaming and house sides are mostly parallel to the deck edge. Also it looks like the deck crown should be greater. Also the rudder needs to be a bit more rounded below the WL.

    With respect to the ballast, it is not an add on as it appears to be original. I agree however that it should be flush with the keel. Perhaps the whole keel could be deeper.




    Once I have the spar and sail measurements the sail plan will change as it looks a bit too tall now. More items that I should have addressed this Summer.

    Here’s the link to some of my Flickr Sjogin pics for comparison. Feel free to compare and advise of any comments.


    All in all a great start and by the time we’re done should represent the spitting image of Sjogin.

    Thanks again to Rod Brink for starting this project.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Russ, are the measurements on the rudder post and stem accurate... fore and aft?... ie., the width fore and aft of both ... are elongated and make Sjogin seem to have extended length... and look very appealing. Just wondered.

    Rod

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    "I will say that Sjogin is a visual "home run" and that any departure from her may only diminish her overall appeal."

    Paul appears to be in process for achieving a visual homerun....his lines look clean and crisp.

    I am so impressed with Rod's follow up and follow through with this project!
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Thanks for posting those images Russ and warming my fall reveries. This is a wonderful thing that is happening and I keep coming back to look at the lines and pictures. Of course now I'm procrastinating and dreaming instead of getting stuff done on a Friday so I can enjoy the weekend. I agree Clint that this is going to be a visual homerun.

    Gerard

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Any more of you participants have any comments on the glued ply lap plans??? Don't be shy, feel free to comment away...

    RodB

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    I've got 12 sheets of 3/8" Sapele ply sitting in the garage so I'm leaning towards the glued-lap version.


    Steven

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Room enough in the garage Steven?

    We'd love to have a Sjogin sister in to visit in Portland. Just think; hove to off East End in a SW breeze, watching the world sail by.



    Hove to off East End?


    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Nice boat.

    I do not know how I missed this, but here is my $.02:

    I do not think that the interior of the boat should be changed. My time with her was brief, but I thought that she is laid out just the way she should be. In keeping with tradition, if propulsion is to be added, it should be in the form of a small diesel, not an o/b motor well.

    One of the beauties of Sjogin is that her planks are laid out just right. The lining-off of the glued-lap version should mirror the original.


    Russ, if you need a hand with anything, give me a shout, I would more than willing to come up for a day.

    ========

    Steven Bauer: is there enough of your brother-in-law's trees to dedicate them to a cedar planked version of Sjogin?

    ========

    Thanks to RodB for the vision to get this thing off the ground, and to Russ for letting us share his wonderful boat.
    Steve Martinsen

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Manheimer View Post
    Room enough in the garage Steven?

    We'd love to have a Sjogin sister in to visit in Portland. Just think; hove to off East End in a SW breeze, watching the world sail by.

    Hove to off East End?


    Russ
    I now a shop in Portland with room!


    The new shop by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr
    Clinton B. Chase
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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Wouldn't a new Sjogin look fine in there.

    Mr. Vivier, your shop awaits.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    A bump so that this project remains on top.

    I'm eagerly awaiting the plans.

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Today I had a conversation with Paul Gartside and he said the plans for the traditional version (original) are close to being done... He and Russ had to exchange some measurements etc back and forth which has taken some time.

    He mentioned that he looked at photos of the sailplan on Sjogin... then he had drawn a balanced craft paying particular attention to the square footage of the sailplan and the ballast... and when he compared what he had drawn to the actual square footage of the actual sails on Sjogin, his sailplan was significantly larger. He said he was certain Sjogin had to have a lot of weaher helm and that the mast needed to be moved forward some and the sail plan larger. His comments included the possibility of a bow sprit or moving the mast forward a bit. The plans developed for the original traditional construction will be "balanced" but as close to the orignal as possible.

    On the glued ply lap version, Paul said he would supply some drawings and suggestions for the interested parties to have some input before finalizing the design. It seems a real blessing for us to have such a talented designer to review Sjogin and to develop the plans for both the traditional and glued ply lap construction. I mentioned and Paul agreed that you can always reef.... but cannot add more sail if you don't have it...

    Anyway, the drawings for the original should be done soon and we should have some additional drawings to review of the proposed glued ply lap version...

    Thanks again to Russ and all who have partiacipated...\\ Especially thanks to Paul for his efforts.

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 01-14-2011 at 12:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    And thanks to you, too, Rod.



    Steven

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Woohoo! Thanks Russ, Rod and Paul. Looking forward to seeing this. I think a balanced sail plan that perhaps is a little larger is great; we can always reef. Gerard

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Hey Gerard... hopefully more will reply... Remember all. anyone interested in getting the plans for Sjogin, both traditional and glued ply lap can send in a $50 deposit to Paul Gartside before he completes the project. Once complete the price for the plans goes up to $350 or so.... So for $200 you get complete plans for the traditionally built , 22 foot Sjogin along with a couple of sailplans. You also get the plans for a glued ply lap version of Sjogin as above....

    RodB

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Thanks for the update Rob. I'd think (hope) that one the sail plans Paul draws will be a gaff option. Getting close and getting excited. Be great to be going over the plans while snowbound, maybe even get a model started....
    Steve B
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    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Has anyone thought about how to get Paul's lines into CAD so that people can more realistically build one in decent time? Is everyone going to loft their own version of Sjogin? Some consistency would be nice so people who decide to build one do not need to reinvent the wheel every time.
    Clinton B. Chase
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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    If Mr. Gartside makes a standard hand drawn 3/4 inch to the foot drawings, I can get those drawings for the frames etc drawn full size and with a corrected set of offsets, also drawings for rudder, spars etc......
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    Paul sends a preview of what Sjogin would look like as a yawl:

    While we didn't think it would be possible to improve on Sjogin, I'd say Paul very well might have. Now I'm going to have to find the time to build that!
    Steve B
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    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

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    Default Re: Update on developing plans for "Sjogin" 11/15/2010

    I have a lot of interest in a glue lap ply version of Sjogin. My only problem is that I have limitations and I'm not sure if Sjogin will fit into those limitations as I'm a relative noob to larger boats (and by larger I mean larger than a kayak).

    Here are my criteria;

    1. I'm looking for a design that will come home with me after every use, it needs to be trailerable, I can't ever see being able to afford the keeping fees at a boatyard nor do I like the idea of having to do any upkeep anywhere other than at home. With that I think it would need to be less than 3500 - 4000lbs and easily launched and retrieved from a ramp single handedly. I'm not sure that's possible.

    2. I would need a motor to power it. Again, being a noob, I don't think anyone wants' me practicing my sailing technique in the harbor amongst all those spensive toys.

    3. I need room for a crapper and I want to be able integrate it into the interior so I can hide it when not in use. (This is as important to me as it is to my wife)

    4. I'm assuming this design can handle the Long Island Sound in terms of any reasonable weather that might happen upon me in my journeys (I'm smart enough to check the weather but if a thunderstorm materializes while I'm in the middle of the sound I'd like to be able to get home).
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

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