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Thread: Tiny blue water sailboats

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Quote Originally Posted by High Altitude View Post
    I would of picked Fafnir also. It looks like you can sit on the back deck with your feet in the cabin during nice weather so you aren't always inside. It certainly is a big little boat with lots of volume for its length. It will look like a barrel some but form follows function and it will have a unique look to it. Paradox has outstanding shoal capabilities which you give up with Fafnir but Fafnir is much larger, can sleep two, able to sail on longer blue water passages etc...... I really like the design. Keep us updated.
    There are five seating positions in, or on, Fafnir, the idea being to give variation in position and some modicum of comfort to the skipper.
    The several sailing seem to go ok, the junk rigged version being much liked by its Estonian owner. I had a note from him a while back to say he'd just returned from a 6 week holiday cruising the Aaland Islands in the Baltic, visiting the home of the Ericson shipping line, the last real sailing ship freight line.

    Good to see this thread come alive again, its been a while, and I've done a couple of very small long range cruisers during that time.
    There are several Swaggies, 18 ft Junk rigged moderately heavy displacement cruisers almost ready to hit the water, and three that I know of sailing.
    I was particularly proud of the two armchairs I managed to work into the cabin.

    SCAMPs, they've become a cult, and a couple of those have done some extraordinary voyages.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  2. #142
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    Mukilteo, WA
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    After some 7000 miles this year on a (rather small for her size) 38 footer, I'm looking lustfully at the 54' next to me. I bet they have a shower in there. And room for crew so they aren't sleep deprived zombies on passage. And probably lockers to hold all the food stores instead of 5 gallon buckets stacked on berths. The mind boggles.

    You all can have your bluewater teacups. Sailing long distances on the ocean is hard enough without being in a boat the same length that the average wave is high. I can't imagine trying to make progress against anything but ideal conditions, and running with it the risk of pitchpoling becomes real right about when other boats are tucking in the second reef.

    Sounds like misery to me. Maybe I've gone soft.
    Last edited by J.Madison; 06-21-2022 at 08:04 PM.

  3. #143
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    Aug 2005
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    just this afternoon on a calm day and flat water, I had more than a few minutes of terror and wondered again if my 17 foot thistle is too big for me. Its times like that when Yrvind's ocean cruising boats seem to make sense and that he's just missing the periscope and snorkel. Definitely his starting point of having a sail that is 1/10th the area that is needed becomes imminently sane...

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    I've spent quite a lot of time pondering the issues around small long range cruisers. Ability to carry a given stores load, ( that governs the safe maximum range) Heave rates, roll period, pitching moments, headroom, bunk and sitting spaces, budget, both to build and to maintain, and on and on. There is a lot to ponder upon.
    My thinking at present, having had a lot of feedback from Fafnir, SCAMP and Swaggie owners, Tread Lightly and Sundowners as well, is that although it is eminently possible to do long voyages in 18 footers, and I know people who've done transocean journeys in such, one needs to be young, limber and able to tolerate a high degree of discomfort at times.

    On the other hand, I also know people who've done very long voyages in Folkboats, and there are lessons to be learned there.

    My current thinking is, that starting with an empty shed and a minimal budget, and having to work at a dayjob to keep the wolf from the door, that a boat of around 24 ft x 8ft 6in or so, bilge keels and a skeg hung rudder ( so it sits upright on the sand when the tide goes out, thats a very cheap slipway job) around 3000 lbs dry, an oversize single masted junk rig, outboard motor in a well, ( technically and legally an "inboard motor" for those jurisdictions where the officials require such) and the simplest possible electronics, is about the practical minimum.

    Lin Pardey says "go small, go simple, go now". She's right. I've seen too many people start off building big comfortable boats with the stars in their eyes, one friend told me his 60 footer cost him fifteen years, two businesses and three wives! Thats an extreme case but there are others very similar.

    So. Small is the way to go for sure, but the boat has to be practical, in every sense.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Quote Originally Posted by Landrith View Post
    just this afternoon on a calm day and flat water, I had more than a few minutes of terror and wondered again if my 17 foot thistle is too big for me. Its times like that when Yrvind's ocean cruising boats seem to make sense and that he's just missing the periscope and snorkel. Definitely his starting point of having a sail that is 1/10th the area that is needed becomes imminently sane...
    Thistles are racers, designed to be lively, and singlehanding a racer designed for two fit people is at times going to be a bit exciting.
    I sail a 22footer, launch, rig, sail, anchor and all that in reverse coming home, no problem.
    I've also happily singlehanded an engineless 44 ft Colin Archer that must have weighed in at around 35000 lbs, it just needed a bit of forward thinking and lots of space.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  6. #146
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    Jan 2021
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    New Zealand
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    a boat of around 24 ft x 8ft 6in or so, bilge keels and a skeg hung rudder ( so it sits upright on the sand when the tide goes out, thats a very cheap slipway job) around 3000 lbs dry, an oversize single masted junk rig, outboard motor in a well, ( technically and legally an "inboard motor" for those jurisdictions where the officials require such) and the simplest possible electronics, is about the practical minimum.
    John,

    I would love to see something like this. It seems small enough to trailer, from time to time, so could drop it into Taupo or Wanaka, just for a change. Or trailer it between cruising grounds. Being able to go out for 2-3 weeks in the Marlborough Sounds over Christmas without having to re-provision at Havelock or Picton would be great, as well.

  7. #147
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    Nov 2006
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    Sneem, Co. Kerry, Ireland
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Thanks for reviving this useful and entertaining thread.
    I was inspired by this thread in 2010. I then looked at putting a small rig on an ocean rowing boat, but that did not work, too tippy, from one who had actually done that. I then went for giving a cabin dinghy the key properties of an Atlantic rower, and that worked. Watertight cabin and additional buoyancy superstructure. Waterballasted. Still a simple boat for everyday use. Trailerable, singlehandable, rigs and unrigs in minutes. Photo here: https://www.semainedugolfe.com/pr%C3...se_bateau_25=&
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Craic; 06-25-2022 at 02:40 AM.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshT View Post
    John,

    I would love to see something like this. It seems small enough to trailer, from time to time, so could drop it into Taupo or Wanaka, just for a change. Or trailer it between cruising grounds. Being able to go out for 2-3 weeks in the Marlborough Sounds over Christmas without having to re-provision at Havelock or Picton would be great, as well.
    That would work. One of the major reasons for bilge keels and skeg is that the boat does not need a cradle, it can simply be hauled bodily onto a rented car transporter trailer, strapped down and driven away, with the rig down of course.

    Try Lake Tarawera, thats a real treat to cruise on.

    On the really tiny cruisers, there are people who think that just because something is possible, thats how it should be done. I think otherwise.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  9. #149
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    Aug 2017
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    Melb, Vic, Aus
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post

    On the really tiny cruisers, there are people who think that just because something is possible, thats how it should be done. I think otherwise.

    John Welsford
    like this guy…


    https://youtu.be/P1ywPbWGIGQ

  10. #150
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    Jul 2013
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    Aquitaine
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    I really don't get the fascination on shaving another inch or so of a tiny boat to get the 'Shortest boat' record for any crossing. Basically you are drifting in the current, or wind, in miserable conditions to prove what? Bit in some newspaper, quickly forgotten. Then some other nutter does it in a boat 1" shorter.

  11. #151
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    342

    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    "Great film" (not). 3/4 over before the boat is in the water, doesn't show it being sailed. Only movement is while being rocked or being towed. Does he intend to have it towed across the Atlantic?

  12. #152
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    Jan 2021
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    New Zealand
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Lake Tarawera would be a lovely spot. Hadn't thought if that!

    Has anyone considered small power cruisers like the Magellan Challenge boats? Or Pazapa? Articles here
    https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/magellan/index.htm and here https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/p...r.34792/page-8.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshT View Post
    Lake Tarawera would be a lovely spot. Hadn't thought if that!

    Has anyone considered small power cruisers like the Magellan Challenge boats? Or Pazapa? Articles here
    https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/magellan/index.htm and here https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/p...r.34792/page-8.
    I'd decided to move ashore, had been looking at houses in Thames, but the housing stock there is very expensive and far too often pretty awful. A house came up that ticks every one of the boxes for me, plus a few that I hadnt thought of, so I'm signed up for a house a few hundred metres from the edge of the water around the lake from Rotorua, and of course that puts me half an hours drive from Tarawera, about the same from Rotoiti, an hour from Tauoo and if I want to go to the salty stuff about 40 mins from Tauranga harbour.

    Back to the OP, no I"m not going to be trying for a lake crossing in the smallest possible boat.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  14. #154
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    Jan 2021
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    New Zealand
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    9

    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    John,

    It sounds like you have a perfect spot. Several marine playgrounds all close by.

    For lake work, I would love a folding sailing canoe, big enough to sleep on and to hold a weeks' supplies. I'm not a paddler so would fit it out wit a pedal drive - prop not Hobie Mirage flappy paddle type.

    Needs to be folding so it's air portable. Can scoot down to any number of lakes close to an airport and just float around for a couple of days.

    Joshua

  15. #155
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    Jul 2007
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    Charleston, SC
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    437

    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    I love the concept of bilge keels as long as they don't mess up tacking ability too much. Are bilge keels feasible in wood/plywood construction for the home builder? As in that 24' boat Mr Welsford described. I'm trying to picture the support needed for two hydrodynamic shaped bilge keels that are slightly angled outwards.

  16. #156
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    Nov 2010
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    Chesapeake Bay
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Quote Originally Posted by gray duck View Post
    I love the concept of bilge keels as long as they don't mess up tacking ability too much. Are bilge keels feasible in wood/plywood construction for the home builder? As in that 24' boat Mr Welsford described. I'm trying to picture the support needed for two hydrodynamic shaped bilge keels that are slightly angled outwards.
    A guy I follow on Youtube is building the first boat of the Wave Rover 650 pattern. It's a 21.3'/6.5 meters long, stitch and glue boat with bilge keels. I believe the plan is to set out on a circumnavigation next year. He's making pretty good progress but hasn't gotten to the keels yet, so I'm not sure how they'll attach.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/SailingWaveRover


  17. #157
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    Default Re: Tiny blue water sailboats

    Quote Originally Posted by gray duck View Post
    I love the concept of bilge keels as long as they don't mess up tacking ability too much. Are bilge keels feasible in wood/plywood construction for the home builder? As in that 24' boat Mr Welsford described. I'm trying to picture the support needed for two hydrodynamic shaped bilge keels that are slightly angled outwards.
    Yes, no problem attaching them, they're just like a fin keel but two of them. The boats internal structure will be engineered to take the leverage, there are several ways of doing this. The easy way being to make the keels from steel, hollow with the ballast in the tips and a wide flange on the top, which is bolted through a big stringer inside. But a stack of solid wood with lead castings on the lower end, through bolted up through that same heavy stringer would work as well.
    A note, steel fabrication is cheap, engineering companies can built this sort of thing much cheaper than you'd think. That plus its actually very easy to work with. Lead castings are also much easier than people think, and real fun to do.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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