Peapod Shapes

[Bill Mercer]

So, I'm curious about the ideal hull shape for a sail-n-oars peapod (with an emphasis on 'sail'). Chapter 16 of Building Classic Small Craft shows lines for several pods, including a 16' rowing pod, a 15' Chappelle pod, and a 15' sailing pod. It looks like the 'sailing' pod has sections about like a fat canoe--flat bottom curving up to vertical topsides and little rocker, while the rowing pod has more what I think of as classic small boat lines, with noticeable rocker, some deadrise, slacker bilges and flared gunwales. Is that beast too crank to be a good sailor? Is that why it's a 'rowing' pod, with low wetted surface but little stability? What sort of shape would you pick for a Northwest cruiser pod?

[Thorne]

Remember that Chapelle was documenting traditional boats made of solid wood -- he also describes the peapod as being "very heavy". Modern marine ply pod are anything but heavy, so you've got the materials differences to factor in when looking at these classic designs.

So are you looking for something 80% sail / 20% oar, or more balanced? Yeadon should be able to give you some good answers about his boat.

[wizbang 13]

Your description (Father Howards') sounds backwards. I would thing the rower to be flat fore n aft and the sailer to be rockered?

[James McMullen]

You should come up to Seattle and look at Yeadon's in person. It would be a really good investment. Tim's been refining and perfecting "a Northwest cruiser pod" through very frequent and active campaigning over the last couple of years. If I were to build a 16' peapod, there's really about nothing I'd change other than to paint it with the colors going the right way up.

[Yeadon]

Big Food is a great boat, but she's not a sailboat. She's something much better, she's a sail and oar. She rows nicely, and she sails nicely.

Big Food is a Matinicus Peapod from Gardner's second book. Her hull form is the same fore and aft, and how you disperse the movable ballast (me) around the boat makes a huge difference in her performance. Beating to windward, I move forward, running I move aft. You cannot park your weight in one spot and expect consistent performance.

My boat, as built, is pretty heavy (you want your peapod to be heavy, it adds stability), has a pretty fine entry, a fat midsection, and a long straight keel underneath. She rows well and carries nicely, too, especially with all that weight. I'd say she's 350 lbs or so. The weight also helps me bash through chop, probably more than a lighter boat of the same type.

If I was to do have done anything different when building her, I might have considered fattening up the butt lines a little bit in the run aft. Make her a little more stable on a run. However, I don't really think about that anymore, as that was when I had a sprit rig, and she was always a bit out of control on a run. With the balance lug (which as a boom) I think that has been corrected. The belly of the sail no longer surges in front of the mast. I'm also a lot better sailor than I was when I first built her.

Honestly, I don't think there is such a thing as the perfect boat. Find the one that makes your heart flutter, and serves your basic needs, safely, and then continue to work on her until you think she's just about perfect.

Good luck.

[Bill Mercer]

Big Food is a great boat, but she's not a sailboat. She's something much better, she's a sail and oar. She rows nicely, and she sails nicely.

Big Food is a Matinicus Peapod from Gardner's second book. Her hull form is the same fore and aft, and how you disperse the movable ballast (me) around the boat makes a huge difference in her performance. Beating to windward, I move forward, running I move aft. You cannot park your weight in one spot and expect consistent performance.

My boat, as built, is pretty heavy (you want your peapod to be heavy, it adds stability), has a pretty fine entry, a fat midsection, and a long straight keel underneath. She rows well and carries nicely, too, especially with all that weight. I'd say she's 350 lbs or so. The weight also helps me bash through chop, probably more than a lighter boat of the same type.

If I was to do have done anything different when building her, I might have considered fattening up the butt lines a little bit in the run aft. Make her a little more stable on a run. However, I don't really think about that anymore, as that was when I had a sprit rig, and she was always a bit out of control on a run. With the balance lug (which as a boom) I think that has been corrected. The belly of the sail no longer surges in front of the mast. I'm also a lot better sailor than I was when I first built her.

Honestly, I don't think there is such a thing as the perfect boat. Find the one that makes your heart flutter, and serves your basic needs, safely, and then continue to work on her until you think she's just about perfect.

Good luck.

Tim, which Gardner title is that? I'm thinking about sail and oar boats with perhaps a bias towards sail. I've been thinking about an SOF pod, assuming t could be light enough to handle without a trailer. Most likely this would require some gravel bags for ballast to get the boat down to its proper sailing lines (though it's been commented that I make excellent ballast all by my lonesome) and some sort of semi=permanent, lashed in floatation. I'm going to consult with Brian Schultz about structural requirements and realistic weight for a 14 to 16' pod; if getting a boat under 150# doesn't seem realistic, I might consider conventional clinker construction, just to get more experience with that method (my skiff has clinker sides, but there's no sectional curve and only two side planks), though SOF would go together quite a bit faster. An SOF pod would have, most likely, bent oak frames and spruce, yellow cedar, or doug fir longitudinals/backbone.

I would think that a skinny butt would make the pod more directionally stable on a run, if you got your weight back far enough to have the rear end of the pod immersed like a skeg. How flat-floored/rockered is your beast?

Any thoughts on my construction ideas?

[Yeadon]

This is the book, here. Basically, that edition includes Volume I and Volume II of his Building Classic Small Craft books.

Look for the 15 foot Matinicus Peapod.

My boat has zero rocker, which actually works well for sailing. She tracks really well, but like I mentioned above, you will have to use your own moveable ballast to help her out during the tacking drill. That's actually pretty fun, I think.

If the stern is too fine, and you move all the weight back, I've found that yes you get skeg control, but you can also get a squirelly situation if you're running straight downhill. Generally, I don't run straight downhill, and will move off into a least a bit of a reach-run. That's how I deal it ... and I think more fullness aft would stabilize that situation. However, it's not really a problem in the grand scheme of things.

I've never built a SOF boat, so I'm not sure about structural requirements there. I would search the forum for everything I could find on "Angyapik" - that's a double-ender SOF built by James McMullen. He sailed it quite a bit, and has talked here on WBF about all the questions you currently have, especially scantlings.

[Bill Mercer]

Hmm. Wonder how hard it would be to fill out the buttock lines on the lofting w/out screwing something else up? You wouldn't want to create any hard turns that the water couldn't follow. On the other hand, maybe the symmetrical pod would have advantages for rowing that would outweigh anything that might be gained for sailing by filling out the rear waterlines?

How much do you have to move around to tack? Does the mizzen help with that?

[Bill Mercer]

Also, have you tried Big Food out in any raids? How does she stack up, performance-wise, against other smallish boats?

[Yeadon]

Hmm. Wonder how hard it would be to fill out the buttock lines on the lofting w/out screwing something else up? You wouldn't want to create any hard turns that the water couldn't follow. On the other hand, maybe the symmetrical pod would have advantages for rowing that would outweigh anything that might be gained for sailing by filling out the rear waterlines?

How much do you have to move around to tack? Does the mizzen help with that?

I think a bright fellow with a bit of design experience could work out a little bit of a lofting/design change in the hull form, but for me, I'd have to be lucky because I don't have that sort of experience. Maybe it would work, maybe not. Honestly, I'd vote against it, and would vote for going an finding a hull form that works for you from the get-go. There's so many other things you can tweak later on, but you really can't go back and fix an inefficient hull form.

As far as the tacking drill, now that I have a boom on my lug, I can often just backwind the main a bit during the drill, and that'll pull the bow right across the wind. However, I can't generally sit on the stern sheets and expect great windward performance, or a sweet and easy tack across the wind. If things are really popping out there, and there is a lot of chop and waves, then I'll probably improve my tacking chances by moving my weight a touch forward of midships, then hustle back a bit once we're through.

The mizzen is just all-out cool, and I cannot stress enough how much safety it adds to an open boat. When everything else goes ape, you can just dump the main and tighten up the mizzen. The boat weathercocks and everything calms down, or at least, I calm down.

Also, have you tried Big Food out in any raids? How does she stack up, performance-wise, against other smallish boats?

No, I've never done a traditional raid, but I do sail in company with other small boats on multi-day camp cruises.

As far as speed, it's not tough to rank small boats according to waterline, though my rig stacks up very well against similar sized boats with other rigs.

Over time, I've done the grand majority of tandem sailing with the Hvalsoe 16, which is an amazing little boat. I currently have a speed advantage over Hvalsoe, though for years he whooped me bad when he had a bigger sprit sail. He's also a more experienced sailor, and that plays into this sort of thing. I bet once he goes to a bigger lug rig with a mizzen, then he'll walk away from me in most conditions. The HV 16 has a longer waterline and is much lighter. (I will be interested to see what happens when we get to plow through the rips. I think my peapod's heft will carry well, and he might get knocked around a bit more. But he likes that sort of thing, so that's okay.)

Next to Hvalsoe, I've also sailed quite a bit with James McMullen and his 20 foot Rowan, which whoops me on all points of sail, all the time. Always. More sail, same weigh, longer waterline. Add a hairball captain, and you have a faster experience.

A speed-wise comparison of a couple other boats:

I have actually sailed a circle about Ben Sebens' Walter Simmons Matinicus Double Ender, but I think once he ups his sail area considerably then I'll probably be looking at his stern now and again.

The Core Sound 17 is considerably faster on a reach than Big Food. Not shocking, she is a sharpie, and they're good at that. That boat also has a ton of storage.

I've kept up with a Grand Pelican on a run in 12 knots, and beaten a regular old Pelican on a run. They are hard-chined, and great to pull up on a beach. They aren't bad sailboats, actually.

A Paul Gartside 15 foot double-ender with a 80 square foot lug is pretty similar in speed. Cool boat.

A 16 Melonseed skiff with an 85 square foot gaff is faster on most points of sail, but if the wind dies and we go human-powered, then I'll be home much earlier.

During the Wooden Boat Festival at Port Townsend, I went sailing in tandem with a 15 foot Chappelle peapod that had a gaff and a jib, we were virtually the same speed on most points of sail, though I seemed a little quicker downwind (but not much). However, I was able to raise my lug yawl in about two minutes, while it took him three times as long to get from rowing to sailing. Striking sail was also a pain for him, while it takes me just a few moments. This makes a huge difference if the wind dies and the current is sweeping you the wrong direction. You're really going to want to be able to strike sail and row in a hurry.

A 19 foot Caledonia Yawl with all that waterline and sail area walks away from me at a steady rate. So does James McMullen's Rowan, which is similar sized to the Caledonia Yawl yet much less beamy.

But as far as "seaworthiness," Big Food stacks up very well against every single boat listed above. And if we were rowing in either smooth flat water or in big slop, I'd probably be considerably better off than everyone except probably the Hvalsoe and possibly Ben's peapod or James's Rowan (that is, until the motors come out).

[Dave Gray]

I recently found that Ducktrap Woodworking has plans for a 16' Matinicus peapod. I think they were derived from Gardner's book as well. I wonder how dissimilar it would be to Yeadon's boat?

http://www.duck-trap.com/2002mde.html

[Yeadon]

Seems different than Gardner's boat. The Ducktrap boat is longer and less beamy.

Big Food - Gardner's Matinicus Peapod
LOA - 15 feet
Beam - 4'10"
Depth amidships - not sure (would be fun to measure this)
Wt - more than 300 lbs, estimated, as she maxed out the bathroom scale.

Ducktrap's peapod
LOA=16'-0" Beam=4'-8" Depth Amidships=1'-7"
Wt=225 lbs (mahogany planked/sailing)
(deduct 45 lbs for rowing version)
Glued Lap with 9mm planking is about the same weight.

I think the Ducktrap boat is very pretty. But I think it's a different hull. She'd be a great campcruiser.

Build one and come sailing ...

[Songololo]

How did you derive the balanced lug and mizzen specs for Big Food based on the original spritsail? area?

The Hylan Beach Pea comes in a 13ft and 15ft version; both are symmetrical fore and aft. On the 13ft version she sails in one direction and is meant to be rowed in the other.





LOA - 13'
BEAM - 4' 4"
DRAFT, board up - 3"
DRAFT, board down - 1'6"
WEIGHT - approx. 120 lb.

LOA - 15'
BEAM - 4' 4"
DRAFT, board up - 3-1/2"
DRAFT, board down - 1'6"
WEIGHT - approx. 140 lb.

[wizbang 13]

Tim, betcher' boat weighs close to 500 lbs. (not sayin' that's a bad ting)

[Yeadon]

How did you derive the balanced lug and mizzen specs for Big Food based on the original spritsail? area?

For sail/mast placement ... I figured out the likely center of lateral resistance for the boat, and knowing the waterline length was able to place the center of effort of each sail where they needed to be to give me enough likely weather helm to be comfortable and safe. There's a good description of how to do this in Chapelle's Boat Design.

For the lug ... I bought plans for Oughtred's Penny Fee, and simply sewed that sail (with a Sailrite kit), and built the spars more or less to his specs. That lug is 87 square feet.

For the mizzen ... JohnW helped me draw up a 10 square foot sprit-boom. I had drawn a leg-o-mutton, but the sheeting angle required a boomkin, which I really didn't want. John's sprit-boom design helped me get the yawl setup complete without that boomkin. We just sort of sat down with my scaled boat drawing and worked and reworked the mizzen until it was in the right spot, seemed big enough, and finally, until it was pretty enough.

Before I did any of this, I referred to my Skenes, my Chapelle, a handful of WoodenBoat magazine articles, the Jim Michalik website, John Gardner's essay on balancing a rig in a small boat. I studied small boat rigs in all those books. I also sat down and figured out the average ratio of most lug yawls ... in general, I found that on a yawl the mizzen is generally 15-20 percent the size of the main. (On a ketch, the mizzen is usually a bit larger in ratio, though I don't plan on doing any exhaustive research on that matter until it's time to build a ketch.)

In all, it wasn't that tough. All the info is out there, but until you do a scaled drawing or three, it's awfully hard to know your options. As always, if I screw it up, I'll just do it again until I get it right.

Tim, betcher' boat weighs close to 500 lbs. (not sayin' that's a bad ting)

That would be way cool to own a quarter-ton peapod.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

I think waterline length is nearly the same Big Food/HV 16, what with my bow and stern overhangs. All things being equal, they should move along at about the same clip. But of course all things are never equal. Right now Big Food has better sail shape and better sail control than I. Big Food is wider and roomier amidships with a more swoopy sheltering sheer. I have more volume and bouyancy aft with my transom stern. The 16 settles down nicely on her butt lines running downhill. Same business applies to both boats tacking and trimming weight fore and aft - move forward to move upwind and vice versa. Tim's boat is quite a bit heavier than mine. Weight can be a good thing. Ground tackle and camping supplies smooth out the motion of my boat in sloppy open water, Big Food must feel solid as a rock. On the other hand when I am out for a casual row in the unburdened 16, I like the feeling of quickness and acceleration, and general handyness.
Back to the peapods.

[aldebaran]

I find this to be one of the prettiest hulls of all. The webpage I find to be cunfusing though. 3 sizes 15 , 15 1/2 and 16´ No drawings of sailplan etc. But maybe I should uy the CD just to have some more photos.

[Bill Mercer]

So just to sum up the pea pod wisdom--for a good sailing pod, you want relatively flat floors and little rocker, with a fair bit of weight to bring it down to its lines? Does the limited rocker add stability by having more of the ends immersed and contributing to righting moment?

And would Gardner's rowing pod be too squirrelly to make a good sail and oars boat, with its slack bilges? The shape is really appealing, and to me it has a bit more of that Scandinavian/Oughtred look.

To answer Thorne's question from his first reply, I'm looking for something that's maybe 60/40 sailing rowing--I want a sailboat, but don't want to fool with an outboard, and if there's no wind or I just have to make time straight into it, I'd like to be able to row it well. Obviously there's a trade off in terms of wetted surface vs. stability and freeboard vs. windage, as well as good sailing lines just being different than good rowing lines.

[aldebaran]

60/40% sail/oar is a pretty high percentage of oar. Many wants 70/30 or even 80/20%
This means that your compromise will be a more narrow hull evt. but not nescessarily slacker bilges and not to much sail. All in all a very nice combo IMHO.
I think you should look into the Duck trap Peapods and the 15´version of Hylans Sweat Pea:

the last I think is very pretty and has a bit of that oughtredish look that you like:

[Gary Davis]

I have a set of Hylan's plans available if you're interested.

Gary Davis

[Eric Hvalsoe]

So just to sum up the pea pod wisdom--for a good sailing pod, you want relatively flat floors and little rocker, with a fair bit of weight to bring it down to its lines? Does the limited rocker add stability by having more of the ends immersed and contributing to righting moment?

And would Gardner's rowing pod be too squirrelly to make a good sail and oars boat, with its slack bilges? The shape is really appealing, and to me it has a bit more of that Scandinavian/Oughtred look.

To answer Thorne's question from his first reply, I'm looking for something that's maybe 60/40 sailing rowing--I want a sailboat, but don't want to fool with an outboard, and if there's no wind or I just have to make time straight into it, I'd like to be able to row it well. Obviously there's a trade off in terms of wetted surface vs. stability and freeboard vs. windage, as well as good sailing lines just being different than good rowing lines.

That sounds like a pretty good summation of the tradeoffs. I think flatter floors, and a distinct bilge with some flare continuing towards the sheer makes for a more comfortable sailing hull form. It occurs to me that the row/sail percentage description of a small boat has a lot to do with the handyness and efficiency of the rig. Transitions are paramount to comfort, safety, and how a particular hull form is exploited.

[StevenBauer]

I know I'm like a broken record with this recommendation as I make in in so many Peapod threads but here it is again - If you are interested in Peapods you should get this video:




Peapods Of The Maine Coast

"This 85 minute DVD is a compilation of local oral history interviews with individuals who have a knowledge of these little double-ended boats. The Peapod has played an essential role in the life and history of Maine. Named for its rounded, double-ended shape, Peapods are thought to have originated about 1870 around Penobscot Bay. Peapods were the original Maine lobster boat, as a fisherman could row either way, and walk up the side to haul a trap. This series of interviews was conceived to commemorate these boats and to capture some of the history and knowledge held by the generations who have seen as these boats have passed from working craft to largely recreational uses."


You can get it from Hamilton Marine for less than $20 here:


http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/brow...8/4,28922.html



Steven

[Yeadon]

I really don't know how a fellow would go about deciding if his boat was 60 percent sailing and 40 percent rowing. How is that judged? You can honestly have a boat that does both pretty darn well, if that's what you're into. I think if you choose a peapod you could end up with a fantastic rower and average sailboat, or something like mine that does both pretty well.

I rowed Robbie Bumpus's Dixon Kemp a while back. She's heavy! Super heavy. But I was able to move her around the docks without much trouble. I wouldn't want to row her except on quiet days with a bit of current under me, but I bet she's great when the wind really howls.

I guess if I had to gauge her sail/row ratio, I'd call her 73/27.





More here ... Dixon Kemp replica.

[StevenBauer]

Have you guys seen this Youtube vid?




Steven

[Ben Fuller]

This would be one of Jimmy Steele's pods. It is real nice rowing.... one reason is that it is not real big. The real work pods or double enders as most of the users called them were in the 14-15 range. Hard bilges as you needed to be able to stand to haul traps, and roll the boat down and up to help haul. Sailing ability has a lot to do with rig and foils. Most of the working pods had a rig for fair wind use and did not bother with centerboards. You want up wind, you row. Rig is critical. Loose footed lug or sprit is convenient but with a double ender you can't get the right sheeting angles so you get too much twist and power goes away. Boomed rigs are more efficient and you can afford to run the boom on bit of an angle to keep it clear of your head like the duckers. The Cd is pretty good ( shameless promotion).

[aldebaran]

"I rowed Robbie Bumpus's Dixon Kemp a while back"

To me it looks more like a boat you can row if you have to, but also one where you´ll prefer not to row at all. I´ll give her 80/20% in the sail/oar
Besides that, its a very nice boat.

Many years ago, I raced in 28´sailboats (1,5ton) No engine. But we had two canoe paddles so that we could paddle her home when there werent any wind. I would give a boat like that 98/2% in the sail/paddle category

In general, the hard bilges of the Peapods shoud make them work well for sail. on a 13 - 15´I would personally fit it out with a balanced lug sail. I hate to sail without a wang or other system that does that the boom doesnt lift when running and reaching.

[BBSebens]

I have actually sailed a circle about Ben Sebens' Walter Simmons Matinicus Double Ender, but I think once he ups his sail area considerably then I'll probably be looking at his stern now and again.

Well thanks for rubbing it in Tim... just you wait...


This looks just like Matty, my mattinicus.


Matty



Matty is a good boat, and as soon as I sort out her sail rig she will be a great one. Her rig is not one spec'd in her plan, but rather based on a used sail. It works ok. Rowing performance is wonderful. I do enjoy just rowing about. Frequently, SWMBO, the dog, and I will take Matty out for a lovely row in our lovely local waters. with ~350lbs of people and dog on board, she settles out quite nicely, and usually I do all the rowing while the Wife enjoys a book settled against the stern breast hook. The dog like to wander, which doesn't worry me, as Matty has a ton of reserve buoyancy. I can STAND on the sheer strake.



On the subject of Rigs: On a small, trailered boat, I can see no better option than a Balanced Lug. Dead simple to use, set-up, reef, and excellent performance. There are better performing rigs, but they each require much more set-up and are often not as easy to use. I like them enough that Im not going to go for Mattys original rig, but rather figure out an appropriate Balanced Lug Yawl set-up for her.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

I can STAND on the sheer strake.

Not much point in telling us that if you don't tell us how much you weigh . . ?
I weigh about 168. I can stand with one foot on my rail and one foot right next to it on the outboard edge of the thwart against the plank. I have not actually tried to balance stock still both feet on the rail, although I occasionally leap off the rails into the drink. It seems apparent from looking at your boat that she would have a lot of reserve stability. And by the way, I have seen Matty in person and what a pretty boat.

I think the gauntlet has been thrown down between two Puget Sound peapods.

[aldebaran]

So is Matty 15 1/2´or is it 16´?

I agree. Very pretty

[BBSebens]

So is Matty 15 1/2´or is it 16´?

I agree. Very pretty

Well thank you Gentlemen.

I weigh about 170 lbs. I did this at the Home Built boat show. Rig up, CB down, and 80 lbs of Ballast in the form of two 5 gallon water jugs, like the ones for filtered water, tied next to the CB case. I stood on the sheer strake.

for clarification: Tim and I both have boats that are called a Mattinicus, but they are different. His is a Gardner, while Matty is a Walter Simmons. Matty is 16' 4" LOA.

[Bob Triggs]

Gannon And Benjamin had some info on a modified Peapod they built a few years ago, I believe the info is still on their website. It was very beautiful and seaworthy and reportedly it rows like a dream.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Heck, with ballast.

[Yeadon]

Big Food is what I like to call "pre-ballasted."

[BBSebens]

Big Food is what I like to call "pre-ballasted."

translate: "Heavy"

Matty could use a little "pre-ballasting"


hey now.. lets get this thread drift back in line...

[NickW]

Does anyone have any experience or views of the 15' peapod shown in plate 56 of Chapelle's Boatbuilding. According to Gardner, this was Chapelle's own tender to his pinky Glad Tidings and both Gardner and Chapelle rated it highly or though both commented it was a bit heavy.

Kind Regards

Nick

[slidercat]

I'm sorry to divert the discussion, but are any of you peapod aficionados aware of a large cruising peapod named Merlin? Or anyway, that's how the boat was described to me by a bystander. I saw the boat at the Florida 120 this year, and found it very impressive. Someone told me the owner/designer had built the boat in 8 months. It had a low but powerful Bermudian rig, and a hard bimini. It went to windward in heavy air like a train.

I wish I'd gotten a chance to talk to the owner, whose name I never heard. I'd like to know more about the boat.