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Thread: The coming government shutdown

  1. #1
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    Default The coming government shutdown

    OK, this is going to be a C&P from www.washingtonmonthly.com... but as I've suggested time and time again, consider the topic and the facts... and feel free to ingore the conclusions.

    The reason this particular C&P is so interesting is because it demostrates how the Tea Party, which has accumulated a quite surprising amount of power on the right, could actually force a government shutdown, like 1995.

    The problem, as I see it, is that it can't possibly succeed, without a veto-proof Republican majority... and the folks expecting S.S. checks, Medicare reimbursements, and other federal benefits, are damned unlikely to tolerate a shutdown for long... this could blow up on the GOP face even more severely than 1995.

    But, feel free to make your own judgment on this. Whatever happens, it's bound to be entertaining!

    STEVE KING EYES SHUTDOWN, DEMANDS 'BLOOD OATH' FROM BOEHNER.... Last week, we expanded our list of Republicans eyeing a government shutdown in the event of a House GOP majority. The list, however, keeps growing.

    Roll Call reports today that Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) wants his party's leadership to sign a "blood oath" that they will include a repeal of the Affordable Care Act in every appropriations bill next year, even if it leads to a government shutdown.
    King said the problem in 1995 wasn't the government shutdown under President Bill Clinton -- which occurred after Republicans attached Medicare cuts and other items to spending bills -- it was that Republicans blinked when they feared the polls were turning against them.

    "We must not blink," he said, noting that money cannot be spent without the House voting to pass it. "If the House says no, it's no."

    Their new tea party backers won't tolerate anything less than a full repeal of the health care law, he said.

    "They will leave us if we go wobbly," he said. "I am worried about that, but that's why I think it's got to be a blood oath."
    Faiz Shakir has more on this.

    The Roll Call report gets back to something we've been covering for a while now. There's every reason to believe John Boehner knows that another government shutdown would be a disaster, would do his party no favors, and he'd be wise to avoid one.

    But the party is already backing itself into a corner. The House Minority Leader has already said scrapping the entire health care reform law is his top priority, and Boehner's caucus -- and the party base -- will expect follow-through. Boehner could pass a repeal bill in the House, but after it failed in the Senate or got vetoed, he wouldn't be able to say, "Well, we gave it a shot; let's move on to other issues now." It's too late for that -- defunding the law is already far too popular within the GOP. There's an expectation that the fight has to happen.

    King is demanding a "blood oath" to ensure it does happen.

    Josh Marshall noted a couple of weeks ago, "When I first heard this talk of another 'government shutdown' in 2011, I figured it was just Democrats whipping it up as a cudgel for the election. Then I heard Republicans talking about it too. But I still figured it was just a way of ratcheting up their own core voters -- who of course loved the first one too."

    But those perceptions are changing quickly, and for good reason. This really isn't manufactured drama -- much of the Republican Party is intent on making this happen. It's why talk of a shutdown is already being pushed by a House Republican leader (Rep. Lynn Westmoreland of Georgia); a Republican Senate candidate (Joe Miller of Alaska); a Republican House candidate (Teresa Collett of Minnesota); and a variety of prominent Republican voices (Newt Gingrich, Dick Morris, and Erick Erickson).
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Yow. I can't stop blinking.

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaseLockedLoop View Post

    Yow. I can't stop blinking.
    Tears of joy at a Govt. shutdown? I have the same issue! Govt. shut down = no new laws , regulations , taxes , etc etc. Yup brings a tear to my eye as well!

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post
    Tears of joy at a Govt. shutdown? I have the same issue! Govt. shut down = no new laws , regulations , taxes , etc etc. Yup brings a tear to my eye as well!
    The millions depending on the gov't for their SS checks and Medicare reimbursement might not be quite so sanguine. Those folks are voters, too.
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    A blood oath seems so 'Steven King'.

    Can't we just spit on our hands and shake?

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    To a CongressCritter, a blood oath is about as binding as "cross my heart and hope to die."

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    A blood oath seems so 'Steven King'.
    Yeah, but it works so well for the press.... you know, a catchy phrase and all.

    Sorta like 'don't retreat.... reload'
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    could actually force a government shutdown, like 1995.
    What happened in 1995 ?

    Was that when clinton balanced the budget....wait hold it ..wasn't that in the contract with america and the newt shut clinton downed..........

    Can't wait...starve the beast....to hell with the welfare state...let them eat rice and I will keep my money that I worked for and eat prime rib..

    What about you norm, hot dogs for all............

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Girouard View Post
    Tears of joy at a Govt. shutdown? I have the same issue! Govt. shut down = no new laws , regulations , taxes , etc etc. Yup brings a tear to my eye as well!
    Yeah, shutdown can only been good, shows how foolishly we have become dependent on the bloated Fed. that was never designed to be functioning as it does today, if you can call it functioning. More like falling apart.

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Did I hear that the dems were (trying?) to add some favorite programs to the funding vote? if so, sort of unethical, don't you think? Have to approve the funding to keep the country running but attaching dem backed programs into it is exactly why there is voter revolt happening. (I could be wrong on these added measures - I bring it up because it adds another dimension to the thread if in place).

    Would be lose lose for everyone. Average voters will blame the dems in power if there is a shutdown. Those with a bit of knowledge and a dem bias will blame the republicans. No one wins!

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Dane Allen View Post
    Yeah, shutdown can only been good, shows how foolishly we have become dependent on the bloated Fed. that was never designed to be functioning as it does today, if you can call it functioning. More like falling apart.
    You do understand that if the gov't shuts down then soldiers and their familys don't get paid? All of a sudden the brave talk isn't so brave, is it?
    Tom
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by RonW View Post
    What happened in 1995 ?

    Was that when clinton balanced the budget....wait hold it ..wasn't that in the contract with america and the newt shut clinton downed..........
    Some pundits believe the shutdown in 1995 was the thing that locked in a second term for Clinton.

    Quote Originally Posted by RonW View Post
    Can't wait...starve the beast....to hell with the welfare state...let them eat rice and I will keep my money that I worked for and eat prime rib..
    I'm going to guess that you have no loved ones living on Social Security or dependent on Medicare.

    But by all means, let's shut down government.... just don't expect those folks 'eating rice' to be voting Republican in the following election.
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by ccmanuals View Post
    You do understand that if the gov't shuts down then soldiers and their familys don't get paid? All of a sudden the brave talk isn't so brave, is it?
    Bravado like shown by Dane and RonW is very cheap... it costs nothing to tell others that they should suffer for someone else's ideology.
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Well here is what is wrong with your government..

    http://www.drudgereport.com/

    Joe Biden (the vice president) thinks he is 2nd. in line to be president, right after the speaker of the house...pelosi..

    I knew he was dumb, but I didn't know he was this dumb...

    Yea shut the dumb bastards down....

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Ahhh.. the Drudge Report.... terrific for those who think that a site which only claims '80% accuracy' is a reliable source of news
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Norm-Bravado like shown by Dane and RonW is very cheap... it costs nothing to tell others that they should suffer for someone else's ideology.
    That is exactly what you do everyday...tell me that my family should suffer with excessive taxation so the liberals can support their idealogy...

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Ahhh.. the Drudge Report.... terrific for those who think that a site which only claims '80% accuracy' is a reliable source of news
    Don't anyone tell Norman the truth about the Drudge Report.

    It's fun to watch him wobble along in ignorance.


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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    There is no point in being hyperbolic regarding the "shutdown" of federal government.....It has happened to some degree 17 times since 1977. Continuing resolutions, budget impasses, etc are a way of life in federal gov't. Essential services, such as VA hospitals remained open, Social Security checks were delivered on time, etc.

    It is, however, disruptive and expensive. Some friends at "non-essential" agencies were given 5 days off in November 1995 and another 21 over the Christmas-New years period. No impact on the health insurance, seniority, etc. And they were eventually paid for their unscheduled winter vacations.

    http://rules.house.gov/archives/98-844.pdf

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    if they(congress) stop working their pay and benefits should be docked. hell - might as well cut them off completely
    if they aren't doing what they are paid to do. and do the checks stop going to the munitions and aero space companies?
    a gov shut down is equivalent to holding the gov hostage and the gov shouldn't negotiate with these folks. if nothing else
    it is equivalent to the kids in the sandbox - if you don't play by my rules, i'm taking my toys home. - talks about whiners!

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by paul oman View Post
    Average voters will blame the dems in power if there is a shutdown. Those with a bit of knowledge and a dem bias will blame the republicans. No one wins!
    Since the proposed government shutdown would only work if the Republicans control at least the House, and would be essentially initiated by the House, I'd guess that most people would blame Republicans (the "dems" would no longer be "in power" in the clear-cut way that they are now). As Norm noted, the 1995 shut-down is often credited with giving Bill Clinton a second term in office.

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by JBreeze View Post
    There is no point in being hyperbolic regarding the "shutdown" of federal government.....It has happened to some degree 17 times since 1977. Continuing resolutions, budget impasses, etc are a way of life in federal gov't. Essential services, such as VA hospitals remained open, Social Security checks were delivered on time, etc.

    It is, however, disruptive and expensive. Some friends at "non-essential" agencies were given 5 days off in November 1995 and another 21 over the Christmas-New years period. No impact on the health insurance, seniority, etc. And they were eventually paid for their unscheduled winter vacations.

    http://rules.house.gov/archives/98-844.pdf
    So, you're basically confirming what's been said: a useless but photogenic and newsworthy stunt.... 'full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'. What good does it do the nation? What good will it do the Republicans?

    Nothing, that I can see.
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Hooke View Post
    As Norm noted, the 1995 shut-down is often credited with giving Bill Clinton a second term in office.
    Might not be a bad idea, Obama having a second term, if the Republicans don't come up with some one quick.

    You didn't hear that from me though.

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Might not be a bad idea, Obama having a second term, if the Republicans don't come up with some one quick.

    You didn't hear that from me though.
    Too late, it's now posted for all of eternity.

    Out of idle curiosity, who would be YOUR favorite, at this particular point in time? You get extra points for being willing to say, and we most certainly won't hold you to the pick.
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    So, you're basically confirming what's been said: a useless but photogenic and newsworthy stunt.... 'full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'. What good does it do the nation? What good will it do the Republicans?

    Nothing, that I can see.
    No, I'm saying that your hyperbole and spin about about Social Security and Medicare are not based on fact.

    Why bother to try and get everyone riled up about something that happens frequently?

    I think we ought to take a lesson from this youtube taken immediately after a large passenger plane had an electrical emergency, little battery power to run the fuel pumps and no alternative in sight. The pilot managed to spot an abandoned (too short) runway, and managed to land the plane without navigation equipment, flaps, etc.

    No panic in the cabin, a few step out onto the wing for pictures and a smoke, and the kids seem to enjoy sliding down the chute.

    Can you imagine the reaction if this happened to US passengers?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2h7x...layer_embedded

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by JBreeze View Post
    No, I'm saying that your hyperbole and spin about about Social Security and Medicare are not based on fact.
    Not quite true. Those checks could be delayed, and I wouldn't blame some SS retiree who was barely making it, check to check, in terms of their ability to pay rent or buy food. Even a few days could be a big deal for some people.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBreeze View Post
    Why bother to try and get everyone riled up about something that happens frequently?
    That's the question I'M asking: what is the value, or the objective, in technically shutting down the gov't for a few days? Think it'll win any converts to the extreme right wing cause? Or will it be more likely to view the extremists as irresponsible?
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Norm--
    Out of idle curiosity, who would be YOUR favorite, at this particular point in time? You get extra points for being willing to say, and we most certainly won't hold you to the pick.
    Maybe the repubs can get lucky and get joe biden to switch sides..

    The more I think or try and think about my post #14...I just don't know what to think...

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Norm, [B]you[B]are the person who posted the thread with the title "The coming government shutdown", not I. What was your motivation for posting this in the 1st place?

    Yup, the checks "could be delayed", an asteroid could hit the earth, etc. etc. More spin.

    I don't have an opinion about winning converts or extremists. I'm pointing out that it happens frequently with little long term effect.

    AFAIK, none of the FY 11 appropriation bills have been passed for the fiscal year which begins in a couple of weeks on Oct 1, 2010. Let's take a deep breath and watch to see if something terrible happens.

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Out of idle curiosity, who would be YOUR favorite, at this particular point in time? You get extra points for being willing to say, and we most certainly won't hold you to the pick.
    It might drive you crazy... but I don't know. I honestly don't seek out this sort of info, at least not now, at this stage. I get 90% of my political news here. That keeps me abreast of the worst of the conservative party.

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by JBreeze View Post
    Norm, youare the person who posted the thread with the title "The coming government shutdown", not I. What was your motivation for posting this in the 1st place?
    Because it's topical, and because the Repuiblicans are already threatening it. In other words, it's news.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBreeze View Post
    Yup, the checks "could be delayed", an asteroid could hit the earth, etc. etc. More spin.
    Looks like you need a history lesson:

    But there really is good reason to believe that a 2011 shutdown would backfire against Republicans just like the '95 one did. For one thing, the setup is -- or would be -- awfully similar: a Republican majority in the House with a large, ideologically pure freshman class at its heart that is convinced its midterm election triumph marked a decisive, permanent rejection of a Democratic president and his philosophy.

    Gingrich and his House freshmen couldn't fathom a scenario under which the public would turn on them if they demanded that Clinton sign their balanced budget plan. After all, voters didn’t like Clinton and hated deficits: Hadn't that been the combined message of the '94 and '92 elections? Others on the right saw an added opportunity in a shutdown: How many people would realize that their lives were no worse without the government and become converts to the conservative cause? (That same spirit is in evidence today. Just consider blogger Erick Erickson’s recent declaration, via Twitter, that "I’m almost giddy thinking about a government shutdown next year. I cannot wait!")

    But the logic of the electorate tends to be more contradictory than coherent. Sure, voters hate the idea of deficits and love the notion of a balanced budget. But they also like Medicare, which Gingrich’s GOP targeted for cuts in its plan, and are made uncomfortable by anything that seems radical -- like a government shutdown, even if it doesn't personally affect their lives.

    This explains why the '95 shutdown was such an instant and enduring loser for the GOP. After a months-long game of chicken and with emergency funding for government operations set to expire, Clinton vetoed a stopgap budget passed by Republicans on Nov. 13, triggering a shutdown the next day. The entire government wasn't closed -- hundreds of thousands of workers were deemed essential and kept on without pay – but National Parks were shuttered, some visa and passport services were halted, and some pension and public assistance programs were also stopped.

    It was all necessary, Clinton told Americans, because Republicans had tried "to force us to accept extreme budget measures that would violate our basic values as a nation and undermine the long-term welfare of the American people."

    Public opinion immediately favored the White House. A Gallup poll released after the first day of the shutdown found that 49 percent of voters blamed Republicans, while only 26 percent faulted Clinton. By a 48 to 38 percent margin, voters said that protecting Medicare and the social safety net was more important than balancing the budget. And by a 49 to 36 percent margin, they said they trusted Democrats over Republicans to decide which programs to cut in order to balance the budget.

    Overall, 48 percent approved of Clinton’s handling of the impasse. For Dole, that number was 32 percent -- and for Gingrich, it was just 22 percent. Notably, Gingrich’s infamous "crybaby" moment -- in which he groused about being ignored by Clinton on a flight back from Yitzhak Rabin’s funeral earlier that month -- came after this poll was released. In other words, present-day claims that public opinion only turned on the GOP after Gingrich put his foot in his mouth are inaccurate: The public was already against them. By Nov. 20, another Gallup poll pegged Clinton’s approval rating at 53 percent, the highest it had been in nearly two years. Suddenly, the '94 midterm debacle seemed like ancient history.

    [B][B]Quickly, Gingrich and the GOP agreed to a stopgap measure to reopen the government, one without the cuts they sought. When that expired in mid-December, another shutdown ensued, this one lasting until Jan. 6. In that time, nearly 300,000 federal workers were furloughed while 480,000 "essential" employees worked for free. Politically, the outcome was no different: The GOP took the brunt of the blame, while Clinton established presidential stature.

    "It’s beginning to look like we can't run the government," Marge Roukema, one of the few GOP moderates left in the House, said at the time.

    Eventually, a compromise was struck, but Republicans never got their cuts. The episode was a clear triumph for Clinton, who led Dole wire to wire in '96, ultimately winning 379 electoral votes. You’d think this would serve as a cautionary tale to today’s Republicans. But, instead, many of them seem intent on affirming the cliché about what happens to those who don’t bother to learn history.
    Quote Originally Posted by JBreeze View Post
    I don't have an opinion about winning converts or extremists. I'm pointing out that it happens frequently with little long term effect.
    When did I make claims about any 'long term effect'?

    Quote Originally Posted by JBreeze View Post
    AFAIK, none of the FY 11 appropriation bills have been passed for the fiscal year which begins in a couple of weeks on Oct 1, 2010. Let's take a deep breath and watch to see if something terrible happens.
    Quite the contrary: something GOOD may happen.... if history repeats itself... or even if it rhymes.
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    It might drive you crazy... but I don't know. I honestly don't seek out this sort of info, at least not now, at this stage. I get 90% of my political news here. That keeps me abreast of the worst of the conservative party.
    *ROFL* So we serve a worthwhile function, then?

    Well, you've been honest, and I appreciate that. Us 'progressives' will stand by, at the ready, to keep you apprised of the worst of the conservative party
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    I need a history lesson for 2011 ??

    I don't have much of a particular interest in which party is in charge, who is causing gridlock, etc.

    You're losing it Norman, and I'm out of here.

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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by JBreeze View Post
    I don't have much of a particular interest in which party is in charge, who is causing gridlock, etc.
    Yeah, we all know... you're 'non-partisan'
    "The rights and interests of the laboring man will be protected and cared for -- not by the labor agitators, but by the Christian men of property to whom God has given control of the property rights of the country, and upon the successful management of which so much depends."
    George Baer




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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by TANSTAF1 View Post
    For now simply de-funding ObamaCare works for me. We won't get a veto proof congress. The GOP/TEA party may barely take control of the House and probably won't get a control change in the Senate.

    The other good things are that unless they can push them through between Nov 2 and Jan 2, crap and tax and amnesty will be dead.
    Anything in particular you don't like about the health care bill? Is it one of these things or is it something else? Just curious.

    1. SMALL BUSINESS TAX CREDITS-- Offers tax credits to small businesses to make employee coverage more affordable. Tax credits of up to 35 percent of premiums will be immediately available to firms that choose to offer coverage. Effective beginning for calendar year 2010. (Beginning in 2014, the small business tax credits will cover 50 percent of premiums.)
    2. BEGINS TO CLOSE THE MEDICARE PART D DONUT HOLE-- Provides a $250 rebate to Medicare beneficiaries who hit the donut hole in 2010. Effective for calendar year 2010. (Beginning in 2011, institutes a 50% discount on brand-name drugs in the donut hole; also completely closes the donut hole by 2020.)
    3. FREE PREVENTIVE CARE UNDER MEDICARE-- Eliminates co-payments for preventive services and exempts preventive services from deductibles under the Medicare program. Effective beginning January 1, 2011.
    4. HELP FOR EARLY RETIREES-- Creates a temporary re-insurance program (until the Exchanges are available) to help offset the costs of expensive health claims for employers that provide health benefits for retirees age 55-64. Effective 90 days after enactment
    5. ENDS RESCISSIONS-- Bans health plans from dropping people from coverage when they get sick. Effective 6 months after enactment.
    6. NO DISCRIMINATON AGAINST CHILDREN WITH PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS-- Prohibits health plans from denying coverage to children with pre-existing conditions. Effective 6 months after enactment. (Beginning in 2014, this prohibition would apply to all persons.)
    7. BANS LIFETIME LIMITS ON COVERAGE-- Prohibits health plans from placing lifetime caps on coverage. Effective 6 months after enactment.
    8. BANS RESTRICTIVE ANNUAL LIMITS ON COVERAGE-- Tightly restricts new plans' use of annual limits to ensure access to needed care. These tight restrictions will be defined by HHS. Effective 6 months after enactment. (Beginning in 2014, the use of any annual limits would be prohibited for all plans.)
    Tom
    http://www.ccmanuals.com


    'Don't fart, and then point at the dog'

  34. #34
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Smells like fear in here, I thought fear was the tactic of the neo-con tea-party anti progressive (insert label du jur here).

    Now we the peeps are going to get fear from both sides? Might as well open up a feed lot in Narrogin Australia.
    In fact, if you can saw a penciled line, apply glue, drive nails, and bring a modest measure of patience to the task, you can build and launch a smart and able craft in as few as 40 work hours. You need not be driven by lack of tools, materials, skills, or time to abandon in frustration a project you conceived in a spirit of pleasurable anticipation.

    -Dynamite Payson

  35. #35
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    Unhappy Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    I'm going to guess that you have no loved ones living on Social Security or dependent on Medicare.
    A government "shutdown" would not affect Social Security or Medicare.

    The idea is to not pass appropriations bills. SS and M operate from Trust Funds, and Congress does not appropriate funds for either. Please find some citation if you think I'm wrong (but I'm not <grin>).

  36. #36
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Might not be a bad idea, Obama having a second term, if the Republicans don't come up with some one quick.

    You didn't hear that from me though.
    I heard it and I agree 1000%
    PH

  37. #37
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    It is truely astounding how childish bullies are.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

    Photographer of sailing and sailboats
    And other things, too.
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  38. #38
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Elf-It is truely astounding how childish bullies are.
    Who are the bullies ? Those that wish to keep, or those that want to take ?

  39. #39
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    So if we've eliminated SS and Medicare as non-issues... what are the other down sides to a shutdown?
    Last edited by BrianW; 09-21-2010 at 03:13 AM.

  40. #40
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Heffernan View Post
    I heard it and I agree 1000%
    PH
    It's not that I don't endorse basic conservative values. I do however appreciate that the rest of the world seems to respect Obama. Right now, we need some respect.

    Whoever runs for President on the Republican side needs to be respectable.

    I do think that Obama promised more than he could deliver.

    Also, Obama is following Bush's plan for Iraq and Afghanistan. He's no liberal hero when it comes to ending war. That works for me right now.

  41. #41
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by RonW View Post
    Who are the bullies ? Those that wish to keep, or those that want to take ?
    Those that stamp their feet and say "no" to everything, no matter whether it was their idea or someone else's.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

    Photographer of sailing and sailboats
    And other things, too.
    http://www.landsedgephoto.com

  42. #42
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    I have an idea - get Obama out of the White House. That's a good one isn't it? No?

  43. #43
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    So if we've eliminated SS and Medicare as non-issues... what are the other down sides to a shutdown?
    I dunno what would get "shut down" in your system.

    In our system, though budget bills are passed by Parliament, there are ways when Parliament is not in session and extraordinary expences occur that Cabinet can pass "special warrants" to draw down funds to keep things going. Usually that's for unexpected deficits ... e.g. a public health emergency.

    I remember a time in the 80s when the government in British Columbia used special warrants in an extraordinary and very controversial way, as an anti-democratic end-run around the opposition to avoid calling a sitting of the House. They were facing massive public protests about planned (quite severe) cuts to services and to the civil service, and Government did not want to give the Opposition a soapbox. So much for democracy.

    But the long and the short of it is that I expect there are at least some analagous methods in your system which would keep funding flowing for essential services for some months, even in the event of a politically-induced "government shutdown."

    Likely the biggest effects would be halting the approval processes to initiate or extend contracts, e.g. for infrastructure, purchasing, etc. Frankly, the effects on your economy will be substantial, especially in places where the recession is still in full swing and the lever to get out would be outsourced (but publicly funded) construction or renewal contracts. Highway paving etc. But the losses would also be felt in all the suppliers of goods and services to government - for copiers, office equipment, supplies and furniture, etc. And in the private contractor sector providing any services or educational programs to government or government workers. It could conceivably affect your contract for instance, Brian, if it would be due for renewal while this farce is enacted. That would suck.

    A prudent administrator would be fast-tracking the approvals now for what they can anticipate might be needed, were such a shutdown to occur, to try and keep productivity as high as possible even during the shutdown.
    "The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible." - Oscar Wilde

  44. #44
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Veterans benefits stop. The effects on VA hospitals are serious. Social Security funds may be there, but those who process claims are ordinary government employees. It's a juvenile stunt, which seriously backfired on the Republicans the last time they tried it. If one wants to get people thinking about all the useful things their taxes pay for which they don't want to do without, that's an excellent way to do it. Tea party Anarchism.



    BTW, Jacob Weisberg has a good article in Slate making the point I've been making for a long time, that the recent extremism on the right bears considerable resemblance to the New Left of the late '60s-early '70s.

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  45. #45
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    But the long and the short of it is that I expect there are at least some analagous methods in your system which would keep funding flowing for essential services for some months, even in the event of a politically-induced "government shutdown."
    Exactly. Whenever this has happened before, there have been funds for "essential services".

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Likely the biggest effects would be halting the approval processes to initiate or extend contracts, e.g. for infrastructure, purchasing, etc. Frankly, the effects on your economy will be substantial, especially in places where the recession is still in full swing and the lever to get out would be outsourced (but publicly funded) construction or renewal contracts. Highway paving etc. But the losses would also be felt in all the suppliers of goods and services to government - for copiers, office equipment, supplies and furniture, etc. And in the private contractor sector providing any services or educational programs to government or government workers. It could conceivably affect your contract for instance, Brian, if it would be due for renewal while this farce is enacted. That would suck.

    A prudent administrator would be fast-tracking the approvals now for what they can anticipate might be needed, were such a shutdown to occur, to try and keep productivity as high as possible even during the shutdown.
    If the funds have already been appropriated but not spent, they can continue (that's part of where the money for "essential services" would come from). So a roads or building contract could continue for a while.

    Most likely, third party services would be stopped (dunno about Brian's contract, but sometimes the Parks have been closed because the concessionaires can't be paid to provide food, cleaning, maintenance, etc.) Federal offices would probably be closed, there might be temporary furloughs of federal employees.

    The Congress is notorious for not passing its spending bills on time (they have to pass 13 appropriations bills, I think the record is something like 9 or 10 by the Sept 30 end of fiscal year). Congress also can stop the wheels by failing to increase the debt ceiling. They took care of that when the Stimulus bill passed, IIRC, and there is plenty of headroom, unfortunately. This brinksmanship is an annual affair. It is more ... pronounced ... this year.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Veterans benefits stop. The effects on VA hospitals are serious. Social Security funds may be there, but those who process claims are ordinary government employees. It's a juvenile stunt, which seriously backfired on the Republicans the last time they tried it. If one wants to get people thinking about all the useful things their taxes pay for which they don't want to do without, that's an excellent way to do it. Tea party Anarchism.



    BTW, Jacob Weisberg has a good article in Slate making the point I've been making for a long time, that the recent extremism on the right bears considerable resemblance to the New Left of the late '60s-early '70s.
    Our soldiers, sailors and airmen would not get paid their normal check or flight pay or combat pay. All military travel would stop.
    Tom
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    'Don't fart, and then point at the dog'

  47. #47
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    It's even more stupid an idea than it was in 1995; at least back then one didn't have history to guide decisions/actions.

    Bleating about 'starving the beast', of course, is so much hoo-hah considering how the government grew under Reagan and the Bushs. Puh-lease.

    I think the Republicans need to stop pussyfooting, complete the subsumation into the Tea Party, and change the name of the merged party to Simpleton and replace their elephant I.D. with Alfred E. Neuman. At last, honesty in politics!
    Gerard>
    Everett, WA

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  48. #48
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    ...a good article in Slate [/URL]making the point I've been making for a long time, that the recent extremism on the right bears considerable resemblance to the New Left of the late '60s-early '70s.
    The writer did note some differences, though, like this one:

    "But where the New Left was young and looked forward to a new Aquarian age, the Tea Party is old and looks backward to a capitalist-constitutionalist paradise that, needless to say, never existed."

    Actually the New Left was pretty contemptuous of the Aquarian-obsessed hippies, but they did look to change things to something different--not like the tea party's silly crypto-nostalgic mythomania. The SDS, 1965, was sending out newletters warning its members (it did have members) to concentrate on awakening the workers to their class position, and to pay no attention to the "hysterical Vietniks." Several of the leadership joined the workforce in Detroit auto plants, where their reception was far less warm than they'd hoped. These guys (the SDS guys, that is: women were pretty much expected to serve coffee and shut up) had a very good understanding of the past, and an interesting view of the future. What they were unacquainted with was the present.

    Michigan Democrats went for Wallace in the '68 primary.

  49. #49
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    I have dealt more with state government than federal government but I think the basic concepts would be the same:

    1. From a business perspective, if money has already been sent to you to pay in advance for some project or service then of course as a private contractor you can keep working and keep spending money, however, if you need to get money or approval to start work on a project, then everything grinds to a halt and potentially you lay off employees until the federal employees are back in their offices and can process your invoice. If you have already done work and are waiting to get paid, lets hope you have some cash cushion so you can wait until the Federal government can pay (if you are used to dealing with the government (or large corprations) you probably already know not to expect fast payment!). If the shut-down lasts for more than a few days then of course even when the shut-down ends it will take a while for everything to get caught up.

    2. From a personal (and small business) perspective, if you need the services of any number of government offices such as the local social security office, the local USDA office, or any other similar "non-essential" government office, tough luck. You'll wait until the shut-down is over.

    By the way, the example of budgets not being passed on time strikes me as fairly irrelevant because there are well-established mechanisms for handling this without creating a lot of problems, but these mechanisms require the approval of the Congress. It can still be a hassle if you are waiting for a budget to be finalized, but it is very different from the impact of a government shut-down.

  50. #50
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    Default Re: The coming government shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    ....I think the Republicans need to stop pussyfooting, complete the subsumation into the Tea Party, and change the name of the merged party to Simpleton and replace their elephant I.D. with Alfred E. Neuman. At last, honesty in politics!
    Boy, you are one cynical feller. But you ain't wrong.

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