Outriggers for kayak

[wtarzia]

Seriously -- lash everything! Making a few wraps with some line then cleating it off (the line permanently attached to either the aka or the ama) will be strong enough for anything and less bother than nuts and bolts for a boat that will always be disassembled. As an alternative, the ratchet straps available from NRS in different lengths work well too. I used two on each atatchment point on my big inflatables, and they kept tight for the 27 hours they were in the water and the other 30 they baked on the beach. The man who recommended them has been using his for a lot of outrigger canoe sailing for a few years. -- Wade

[Songololo]

A bit more progress on the outriggers ... http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...63#post3720563

[Songololo]

Progress ... http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...65#post3720565

[JimD]

Coming along nicely, Songololo. Why don't you start posting in The Outrigger and Proa thread where most of the action is. Your project definitely qualifies and I'm sure you'd be well received.

[Bram V]

I plan to upgrade the PVC tubes I use for outriggers in my kayak to s&g as well, but it will probably also mean I will want to make a new main hull, and new struts, and better masts, leaving me with another tri and the same ugly plasic tri I have now as a spare...

[Songololo]

We have outriggers! http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...68#post3720568

[Bram V]

Very nice!

[Petewp]

Thats really superb - great spectra on the amas and small enough as to not drag if you paddle - really great stuff. Its something like that which could cost a fortune to purchase ready made - if you could - but is readily available to someone talented and resourceful enough to pull it off. Dynamite.

Pete

[wtarzia]

Great work! Very nice that the amas nest inside the boat. -- Wade

[JimD]

Although there's a chance you'll need to lash the beams with something stronger than boot laces.

[JimD]

Songololo, how about an update? Been in the water yet?

[Songololo]

Getting there

I am currently finishing up the leeboard and rudder bits and pieces, details here. The only outstanding items on the ToDo list are then the running rigging lines, their associated grommets/eyes and bending the sails to the spars ...

[JimD]

Getting there

I am currently finishing up the leeboard and rudder bits and pieces, details here. The only outstanding items on the ToDo list are then the running rigging lines, their associated grommets/eyes and bending the sails to the spars ...

I'm going to use the rudder and daggerboard off our dinghy to speed things along. Started work on 8 foot dory outriggers, about 6" wide at the bottom, a foot wide at the sheer. It will be interesting to see how those little four footers of yours hold up. Also, I've ordered sails from Duckworks, hopefully they will be shipping them soon. At our end there is a postal strike in Canada so that won't be helping matters.

[sailcanoefan]

This is my contribution to this thread. I built my outriggers 3 years ago. From a 4 inches sketch in a book, few measures, It took me almost a week (few hours a day) to enlarge drawing to 8 ft. Once ratio was calculated, it was easier to report to full size measurements. Video link below pic.


See my video

http://youtu.be/LdKoXdL_PKk

[JimD]

Very nice, sailcanoefan! Out boats will have about the same dimensions and similar sized hulls.

[sailcanoefan]

Thanks Jim. It was a pleasure to design and build these outriggers. They add safety and stability to a canoe. I can go without problems in F5 (maximum wind force to a sailing canoe) under one reef to mainsail ( mizzen sail has one reef also). See my boat in full view.

[JimD]

Sailcanoefan, what's the distance between the outriggers?

[sailcanoefan]

Distance is 3 meters or 10 feet, as described in the reference book (seen in the video above). I think it's a good distance. Wider is realy too much, while less, 8 feet in my opinion too narrow. Remember, this is the principle of the lever; when fulcrum is moved force will vary. That means if outriggers are far from canoe, ''here 3 feet'' more stability to canoe. But 12 feet is too much and useless.
I can stand up without fear to wet my cap, make adjustment to rigging, and more. Going camping is smooooooth!!! Bring all neccessary equipment, like tent, propane stove, beer, camcorder etc etc. See pic below.
I highly recommend outriggers to sail kayaks and canoes. Regards.

[JimD]

Ten feet is about what I'm aiming for, too. I think I can probably expect similar performance from my boat, although the main hull is actually a converted beamy kayak, just under 30 inches wide, 15 feet long, decked at the ends and open in the middle.

I've been thinking about a mizzen, and think I will build a step for a second mast on the aft deck, as well.

[sailcanoefan]

2 masts is useful. Can reduce mainsail area. My canoe is a 17 footer. Building a mast step is easy.
Here's a pic of what I consider ''my little masterpiece'': Rope strop blocks made from ashwood. 4 inches long in total. Thimbles are made from 3/4 in. copper pipe. Sheaves made from polyethylene kitchen cutting plates 1/2 in. thick, cut with round bell saw.

[Petewp]

My ama is actually going to be completed soon - who knew???? Its only taken untold needless month after month.

I ran the skinny on my project before, Ill mention it again for clarity. Ive got a CLC West River 180 I built from blue prints. Has only one hatch [in rear] per my choice [keeping the bow light].
Its a fast, if heavy hull and on its own has very very caffeinated initial stability. Somewhere between a "normal" kayak and a surfski. The outrigger is a modified CLC MKII sailrig ama from their successful sailrig kit. I used the stoick ama for the kayak as a tacking proa but it proved both too light and not bouyant enough.

Now after the mods...

I got the ama and built it up 5" high OVEr the gunwales so it is significantly more bouyant and the weight naturally goes with the extra wood and glass. Its assymetric in an odd way in that I have the deck swooped a little low to starboard which will follow with the arc of the akas. In and of itself it looks lopsided - even warped perhaps, but it makes sense.

I decked out the top and have just one 2' long section amidships to fill and then after that I make the armatures to accept the akas.

Because its so lat in the season, it'll be on the water before its painted, with plenty of drips of epoxy as well - Im focusing on the end of august as my latest late date. Id like to sail it before then.

Oh, beam is wider now - 7 feet instead of 5 1/2'. Between the beam and the sheer mass and bouyancy, it may slow me a little but itll be a lot safer in saltwater slop.

Anyway, Im just psyched the deck is nearly completed.

Pete
PS: I do want to say, this isnt the refined works like songololo - but a rather rough finish. The inside of that ama is butt-ugly. Id like to make it pretty and sweet, but its amazing this thing is getting done at all with two jobs going on in the middle of it all.

[Songololo]

Some outrigger feedback ... http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...70#post3720570

[JimD]

Thanks for the sailing report, Songololo. It looks first rate and I bet you've gotten a few compliments.

[skuthorp]

Thanks for the update, I'll have the Mac out for the day in a couple of days time. I am still undecided re outriggers.

[Petewp]

So whats new guys?

Pete

[skuthorp]

Several things have interfered, like a trip to see Duncan's Dragon amongst other things and the ski season. I have however organised a PVC pipe amah with bamboo poles to try when next there is an opportunity. Based on that I may do something more photogenic.

[sailcanoefan]

Start building 19 ft sailboat from DN Goodchild. I like the design and it is easy to build. All 11 frames are done, this week, I will install them on the workbench. Here's a pic of the boat. From B/W poor quality pic, colorized with Photoshop.

[Petewp]

Start building 19 ft sailboat from DN Goodchild. I like the design and it is easy to build. All 11 frames are done, this week, I will install them on the workbench. Here's a pic of the boat. From B/W poor quality pic, colorized with Photoshop.

Im turning my kayak sailrig back into a trimaran configuration. Too many water safety restrictions. You dont want waves over a 1.5 feet off the wrong beam or youll flip. Since its a kayak you cant hike out and if you did your cockpit would fill with water. Anyway the reconversion is nearly done. Oughta be nice. New rudder and some subtle mods. Im looking forward to 9 knots.

Pete

[sailcanoefan]

When I was reading your reply, I've realized there was no pic available, now it's corrected.

I've colorized (poorly) image, to make it nicer.

[JimD]

I have two kayak to sailing proa conversions underway, both going very slowly. But one kayak is almost ready to be fitted with its outrigger which is partially built. I opened up the cockpit and like the way its shaping up. The cockpit is four feet long and the six feet at either end are sealed floatation making it as unsinkable as possible. The ama is about 11.5', deep vee.





The other conversion will be a much bigger boat but its been sitting in this state for quite a while:

[skuthorp]

PVC pipe setup works well enough but it complicates the set up process so unless I plan to make an extended trip probably no amahs. I already have made several week long sailing trips but in relatively protected waters, and even on a benign day Bass Strait or the Southern Ocean are not safe places for a Macgregor. I have however had the sea kayak out into the open sea, being an easier craft to right and re-board if necessary.

[JimD]

Mast tabernacle



And a home made rudder knocked together years ago but never put to use. I expect it will be inadequate for the job but I already have it so may as well try it before building a new one. Just needs a little sanding and varnishing, or maybe black paint. And cables to the cockpit, of course:

[RKDJONES]

I am protyping an outrigger for my old beater fiberglass sea kayak, which I want to paddle from a kneeling position (Later I plan to build a Outrigger canoe from scratch). At first I intended to use a 3" ABS pipe as the ama, but it warped in the not-so-hot sun while sitting my my back yard. So now I am on to another quick and dirty ama idea to try out the craft as an outrigger canoe. I'm thinking about making a sandwich of two 1x5x8' cedar fenceboards with some rigid foam insulation in between (R-tec is what is in the local Lowes). I don't want to glass it for the prototype, but if it all works well I will make a more permanent ama. I'm sure it will have sufficient flotation. I would just like to get some feedback about whether any of you experienced builders think I am bound for failure.
Robert

[Gary Dierking]

I am protyping an outrigger for my old beater fiberglass sea kayak, which I want to paddle from a kneeling position (Later I plan to build a Outrigger canoe from scratch). At first I intended to use a 3" ABS pipe as the ama, but it warped in the not-so-hot sun while sitting my my back yard. So now I am on to another quick and dirty ama idea to try out the craft as an outrigger canoe. I'm thinking about making a sandwich of two 1x5x8' cedar fenceboards with some rigid foam insulation in between (R-tec is what is in the local Lowes). I don't want to glass it for the prototype, but if it all works well I will make a more permanent ama. I'm sure it will have sufficient flotation. I would just like to get some feedback about whether any of you experienced builders think I am bound for failure.
Robert

Warping is a good thing with plastic pipe amas. A straight pipe does not allow the canoe to tack as quickly as an ama with some rocker. You'll also have less drag when paddling.

Gary

[JimD]

Looks like power will be by a jib with an aft mounted mast, initially. There is also a mast step at the forward end of the cockpit but I haven't a suitable sail to rig there at the moment. I also have a bigger, higher aspect jib to try out but it would require a mast about four feet taller. Getting close to being a usable boat:





This mast uses a forstay and shrouds but is very quick to set up as all that is required is to slide the pivot pin in the aluminum mast step out (to take down) and lay the mast in the boat with stay and shrouds untouched.



The aluminum mast step I already had from another boat.



Have considered using this sail as a makeshift lateen but somehow I just didn't like the look of the sparring when I mocked it up.

[PeteCress]

Are you using a single paddle or a kayak double? I find that I can have the aft aka just behind my seat and the forward one a minimum of 4' forward of it to have enough room for a good stroke.
Gary

Bump....

Are those distances for single, double, or both types of paddle?

[PeteCress]

I hope so
The cleats would look like a cross between a normal large wooden cleat and something like what is shown below (pics borrowed from here ):



Does anyone have any comments on this system? Easy and quick to setup? Disadvantages? Other ideas?

Understood that this reply is to a post that is over a year old.

Having said that...

Maybe somebody will be reading this thread for information at some later date, so I would comment.

The setup shown has a fatal flaw: the vertical post running into the iako has become structural. To wit, if the ama is twisted enough, the post will snap off as shown in http://tinyurl.com/43k24b3

The good-right-and-holy path is to have the posts located on the iakos and protruding maybe a half-inch to an inch per Gary's spec. viz: http://tinyurl.com/6r9qhct.

In my case, I bought some 1/2" pultruded fiberglass rod for the purpose. In this implementation, the posts are acting more as locators than structural members and the lashings are taking the hits.

Advantages:

• Location/angle/depth of holes is not critical. With the post-in-ama implementation, the angle of the post becomes very important: too important. With Gary's spec, there is plenty of wiggle room for the hole. It doesn't even have tb exact size. The ama angle/locatin is determined by the interface between iako and the plate on the ama, which is easily amenable to trimming/shimming.
  .
• It's fault-tolerant while rigging/derigging. You undo the lashings on the other end, maybe wiggle the ama a foot or two, and it just wants to pop out of the hole instead of shear off.

[JimD]

Cheap lumber yard spruce with a quick coat of cetol makes a hiking seat/swim platform. Will probably make something far more elegant in the future but this was quick and cheap and I'm really not at all sure what I will need until I try it out. I envision something with a laminated curve to mirror the curve of the combing, with a much smaller sitting chair.:





A canoe paddle for steering:

[JimD]

First time on the water looked like this, but almost windless.



And I've already decided to try a taller, bigger rig, so it now looks like this:



Today I've taken it apart and am going to go for a kayak paddle only. I'm not sure if I have any further interest in kayaking but I want to give it one last chance before I make further changes that would render the boat unusable as a paddle only kayak.

[JimD]

Back from paddling and am happy to report I did not enjoy it in the least. No more kayaking for me. I think now I may have to deepen the hull and get a proper lug rig for it. Probably not till next year, though.

[Woxbox]

A prediction: You won't be done until you've got that thing parasailing on foils.

[JimD]

A prediction: You won't be done until you've got that thing parasailing on foils.

I think you may be right. Foils sound interesting. Actually, what I should really do with this boat is leave it alone, sail it all summer, and get to work on the other kayak conversion which already has the hull deepened, has room to sleep in, and which makes a much better candidate for for serious sailing.

[jazzalbart]

I just love to have outriggers for my kayak because it is a kind of plateform by which you can fish, swim, snorkel, sunbathe. A platform which provides immeasurable security when long crossings take you miles from shore, squalls surprise you out in open water, or rip tides froth at your boat.