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Thread: Design Challenge III

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    So would the requirement of 'sailing to windward in a gale' be met if the boat can make ground into 34 knots of wind? Or only if it can do it in 47 knots?

    I used to sail in the North Sea every weekend for 4 years, a pretty windy spot generally and I only saw 47 knots of breeze a couple of times. The 45' decent cruiser-racer I crewed on could make progress upwind with its 8' draft, full hoist No.3 blade and deeply reefed main but none of the other (smaller) boats could - if it had been any lumpier we would have been struggling too. 34 Knots on the other hand was a fairly frequent occurence and provided exhilarating sailing, especially with the masthead kite up! That would be a stiff challenge that a wholesome small boat could take up but something to beat into the higher windspeed is going to be pretty freakish IMHO.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    I totally agree with the words of Clarkey, and I like the guys of WB respond the cuestion by Clarkey (34 or 44 Kntos?)

    I am convinced from my own experience that many boats under 30 feet can can make ground into a storm of 35 Kntos, but the navigation in these conditions will never be normal and placid.

    Only in one occasion I sailed upwind against winds above 40 Knots, I did in a solid cruiser-racer over 50fets sailing at 7 knots with just a small sail on the bow about of 22 sq ft. This happened in very distant waters to waters that run tests weekend raid.

    I want design an extremely seaworthy boat with which to reach port if at some point I must be face to a storm.. But do not get a design storm eater, this would lead to extremely radical designs in shapes and sizes that barely fit into the other requirements of the competition.


    I think that the guys of WB should clarify that is for them to navigate in a storm of windward, and what is the exact scale 37 or 47 Knots?

    Sorry for my english.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Here you have a good and classic example of a small safe boat to sail with winds of more than 35 nkots. Cruising with a very similar philosophy to what I think.


  4. #74
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    The nature of design means that each designer will give a different weight to each requirement.......The inclusion of a sailing/seakeeping requirement is (IMO) meant to force entries to at least address the issue......it will then be up to the judges to decide if you have addressed the issue adequately, inadequately, or at all.........

    In the old days we would design a boat with what we thought was enough sail area and enough ballast to stand up to it, and a reefing system and maybe some storm sails. Beyond that designers trusted the prudent mariner to have the skill and wisdom to deal with storm conditions. In today's more sophisticated design environment we have access to reams of data on resistance increases in waves, righting arm data coupled with heeling arms and sail area vs windspeed will prove adequate stability with various loads in various weather conditions. It will remain up to the designer to stipulate a sea condition and show how his or her design performs in those conditions.

    I would view it as another layer in the design process, not only do you design the boat, then you must theoretically prove how she performs. Racing boat (and many cruising boat) designers have been doing this for years with VPP (velocity prediction program) software, though I don't know of any that work in 47 knots of wind.
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  5. #75
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    I think the polar diagram for almost all trailable boats at 47kts of wind would show best VMG with the 'deploy large parachute sea anchor' option ticked :-)

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    This should be interesting. I like that the windward in a gale performance has been included in the design brief. It insures that this boat will push the envelope of what is possible in a trailerable boat. The real trick will be getting the comfort level of the crew at an acceptable level while making that progress to windward. Of course the comfort thing is not a requirement of the contest rules but it has got to be a consideration in the back of the designer's mind if he or she ever hopes to make a profit off the design. I imagine that the market for trailerable boats able to go well to windward in a gale is quite small. If you're looking at gale force winds in the forecast, why would you launch the darn thing? Still, it will be interesting to see what the designers and designer-want-to-be's come up with.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    to me it is simply a question of
    A. robust rig design
    B. limitting the windage of the hull/cabin

    Like I said it will not be a problem for the design I have in mind, wide, low, powerfull mono hull with a 7' lifting bulb keel

  8. #78

    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    [QUOTE=antoniv;2738604]Here you have a good and classic example of a small safe boat to sail with winds of more than 35 nkots. Cruising with a very similar philosophy to what I think.

    That's a beautiful little boat, but I don't think it would make ground to windward in 40 knots.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Dear Friends

    Today was the day to sharpen my pencils.

    I established the basic dimensions of my design. This, surely, be one of the smallest among the contestants.

    The first limiting factor in size that I have proposed is the maximum weight on the trailer: 500 kg

    The length between 5 and 6 meters with a maximum width not more than 2 meters, so this is really effective boat in sailing and rowing.

    The accommodation will be the minimum necessary, utilizing overhead elevating roof and tends.

    Two masts and apropiate for Gaff and lateen rig.

    Canting keel for easy access to the beach.

    As soon as the pictures are ready I will show you. I do not design to win, just to enjoy and build my boat.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    What about a Chesapeake style working sailboat, moderate deadrise, say 24-32' rigged bermuda ketch? 3/8-1/2" ply.....heavy centerboard.....

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    What about a Chesapeake style working sailboat, moderate deadrise, say 24-32' rigged bermuda ketch? 3/8-1/2" ply.....heavy centerboard.....
    With the traditional pushboat, yep, it would go to windward in a storm.


  12. #82
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    With the traditional pushboat, yep, it would go to windward in a storm.

    A bit above the weight limit....

    Dan

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind View Post
    [FONT=Tahoma][SIZE=3]...It's interesting that the Detroit auto makers of a few years ago, whined their butts off when California instituted strict emission controls. Not wanting to miss-out on the huge market, they got their act together and produced vehicles that could meet the rules. Same thing happened when strong mileage requirements were put into place. ...
    --- Excellent analogy! And I would like to add, when the Psychohistorians were exiled on their resource-poor planet (Asimov's Foundation novels) they invented great stuff because they had to. OK, that's extreme fantasy, but half of what we think about is fantasy. Fantasy is the first step toward something somebody will soon be taxing. I for one am looking forward to what you folk can do toward this design fantasy. Keep at it! -- Wade

  14. #84

    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Yeah, maybe the next challenge should be a flying car, and then we'd finally get them.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Ray +1, should run on water as fuel.

    "It's interesting that the Detroit auto makers of a few years ago, whined their butts off when California instituted strict emission controls."

    To me that catches it perfectly. You can understand why WB wanted efficient power boats, and in this case wants a do everything trailer sailer. There is a public spirited element to these challenges, and also a challenge element. But it falls flat if the aim is impossible or stupid. If it does err in those directions, then it is all part of the plan to generate discussion, and the discussion may then center on a poorly designed contest. My experience of the people at Wooden Boat is that they may not be designers themselves, though some have been, but they are big people who admit fault and deal very plainly. If they have made a mistake they will acknowledge it.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    The LADY B boat by JR Watson on page 21 of the latest WoodenBoat (Nov/Dec 2010) magazine is close to perfect for this challenge.
    See: www.westsystem.com/ss/lady-b-launched.

    It has the following particulars:
    LOA 28
    Beam 7'6"
    Draft <1'
    SA 290
    Disp 2500
    A ballasted dagger board
    Self-bailing cockpit
    9.9 HP 4-stroke outboard motor in well with fairings.
    Two free-standing demountable carbon fiber masts
    Self-tending sails
    A nice cabin and cockpit

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit View Post
    The LADY B boat by JR Watson on page 21 of the latest WoodenBoat (Nov/Dec 2010) magazine is close to perfect for this challenge....
    --- Yes! Handsome and effective looking. That is the mystery boat I think I saw in some advertisement, maybe in WB, and I wondered who done it. -- Wade

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomcat View Post

    But it falls flat if the aim is impossible or stupid. If it does err in those directions, then it is all part of the plan to generate discussion, and the discussion may then center on a poorly designed contest. My experience of the people at Wooden Boat is that they may not be designers themselves, though some have been, but they are big people who admit fault and deal very plainly. If they have made a mistake they will acknowledge it.

    I could be totally wrong about this, but I have this foggy idea that the folks who run this magazine and their sister mag., Professional Boatbuilder, have somewhat decent access to a fairly significant slice of very creative designers who have been known to push boundaries. Really, what would it take to sit down over a BLT with one, or more, of these folks and do a little scheming session with regards to this iteration of the Challenge process? While a collection of folks are arguing over particulars, the PBB/WB staffs may already have some very interesting, roughed-in examples sitting on the hard drive to use as reference.

    Since we're not dealing with dumb people here, I tend to see this the way a lawyer sees his opportunity to cross-exam a key witness in court. First off, don't ask a question to which you don't already know the answer. That would have a reasonable assumption attached that Carl and his gang have already danced with the concept and feel that it's a doable proposition. That the Challenge pushes the boundaries is a very good problem, as the typical commercial enterprise tends to shy away from dramatic sea change types of expressions. What do you say we go from that position, instead of assuming that these guys have all blundered badly in a very public way? We might just get our peepers opened.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit View Post
    The LADY B boat by JR Watson on page 21 of the latest WoodenBoat (Nov/Dec 2010) magazine is close to perfect for this challenge.
    Does that mean Iain Oughtred's Haiku could be a contender too? What do you think?


  20. #90
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Does that mean Iain Oughtred's Haiku could be a contender too? What do you think?

    Not if it needs to be a new design.

    Dan

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Opps! Right! I was just thinking of the windward in a gale requirement. That Haiku certainly seems to have enough reef points to get the job done.

  22. #92

    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Somewhere in my enormous crapload of uncatalogued books, I remember seeing a Beaufort Scale explanation that included information dealing with the handling of small sailboats in increasing wind and sea conditions. You know, something like "Force 8, small craft reduced to storm canvas..." That sort of thing. I can't find it-- I've checked my ancient copy of Adlard Coles, and I'm looking for the new one, which I recently reviewed.

    Anyone know what I'm talking about?

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    I generally object to a cabin design if it looks blocky... it almost looks like Haiku has excessive swoop to her cabin sides... too much of a good thing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    So would the requirement of 'sailing to windward in a gale' be met if the boat can make ground into 34 knots of wind?
    34 Knots on the other hand was a fairly frequent occurence and provided exhilarating sailing, especially with the masthead kite up! .
    Now thats using your head! sure it says to windward in a gale and if gale starts at 34 then sailing to windward under those conditions should satisfy the requirements just fine.

    still doing thumbnails and looking at sail plans, I'm trying to decide between all water ballast or water and a small bulb (tending toward just water) and between a sloop or schooner rig (thinking sloop)

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    With my pedantic systems engineering hat on I would certainly try and argue that the requirement has been met at 34 knots!

    I am quite intrigued by a 'raid boat' approach to this which would give up entirely on light wind sailing ability and row in those conditions. Then I would go for a supremely low drag sailing set up with a very small rigid wing, efficient foils and the crew tucked behind the windward gunwale out of the breeze. The wing would either be small enough to stow or just left up, feathering, when not needed where it should cause less drag than a bare mast. My doubt is whether this approach could generate enough raw power to punch upwind in anything other than flat water.

    Out of water ballast (pumped to windward) or a canting bulb, I too would try the water - increasing the mass of the boat might be quite beneficial going into the seas. Surely a sloop has to be the choice? A schooner would suffer from the drag of the second mast and you might be down to one sail by then anyway?

    I don't think that the cabin of the Oughtred sharpie is as designed, along with some other aspects. I remember being really taken with the first drawings published and then extremely disappointed with how that first one turned out in practice.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Check out what these guys have been up to if you didn't catch the thread I started yesterday.

    Their boat is a bit too heavy to pass inspection for the current challenge, but not by a whole lot. But it is much shorter than allowed. If you browse around their website and videos, I think you'll find that they had little trouble making progress in gale conditions for days at a time. And as you'll also see, they did launch the boat from a trailer.

    As far as I'm concerned the case is closed that this challenge is completely valid.

  26. #96

    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    In the "good old days" if one felt strongly about something in a magazine one would write a letter to the editor. It wasn't considered necessary to write some sycophantic letters first.

    Furthermore, I am not whinging, I am simply trying to clarify the competition rules. I know that WB can write whatever rules they like, that is exactly what I wrote in my first post. 25 years ago I entered a Yachting World design competition for a 35ft performance multihull. One of the calculations requested was for the ballast ratio.

    Just because a boat has three sets of reef points it doesn't prove it can go to windward in a gale. It might mean it is so tender it needs them in 20 knots of wind, although I agree, the last requirement might have been intended to rule out high freeboard, low stability boats. But to me it also rules out all open boats and all lightweight boats that have enough sail to be fun to sail in light winds.

    One of Dick Newick's most famous designs is the 31ft Val trimaran. Designed as a trailable day sailer with basic accommodation for two, it gained fame when Mike Birch raced his to third place in the 1976 OSTAR. So a Val might be considered a multihull that complied with ALL the competition requirements. Except that after the race I asked Mike how he did so well. He said he kept full sail up during the day but deep reefed at night. I then asked "how does it go to windward in a gale?" "It doesn't" he replied

    One multihull that does fit the rules is QAB, the ex F40 catamaran that won a Round Britain race and competed in the 2STAR. 40ft long, 3000lbs, trailable, limited accommodation for two people, 1000sq ft of sail. And it does go to windward in a gale. But surely it is not a Raid boat?? I must say I find it interesting that 40ft is now considered a "small" boat.

    So, sorry, but, despite carefully reading all this thread, I am no nearer to understanding the actual rules, although I do understand their intent.

    Best wishes

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com

  27. #97

    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Check out what these guys have been up to if you didn't catch the thread I started yesterday.

    Their boat is a bit too heavy to pass inspection for the current challenge, but not by a whole lot. But it is much shorter than allowed. If you browse around their website and videos, I think you'll find that they had little trouble making progress in gale conditions for days at a time. And as you'll also see, they did launch the boat from a trailer.

    As far as I'm concerned the case is closed that this challenge is completely valid.
    Wox, was that progress to windward? Unless I'm misremembering, the rule was that the boat must make progress to windward at the top end of gale force winds. To me, this is not only an impractical design brief, it contravenes what most good small boat sailors would (and should) do in those conditions. Unless the sailor is embayed or otherwise restricted, sailing in a gale, prudence would dictate some other point of sail, heaving to, or lying ahull.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Ray,
    Of course a cruiser wouldn't normally beat himself to death fighting wind and waves in a gale unless he had no other choice, but that's beside the point. The contest rules don't consider that. The guys sailing that F31 around the Arctic Ocean had to keep going to get home before the icebergs moved in. In one video, it looks like they are making way to windward in a gale, and the helmsman suggests this. But the specifics on wind speed and direction aren't there. There is a long blog from the trip, but I haven't had time to go through it to look for performance numbers.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Well Carl,

    You have certainly stirred up the crowd with the new Challenge. In my opinion, the last two Challenge requirements were rather easily met, while the latest one should tax a designers brain cells a bit harder. I see nothing wrong with that. I do think the range of 34 to 47 kts is rather broad with the wind force at the upper end almost twice that at the lower end. So, you might specify which is the controlling one to avoid confrontations about what was intended.

    Most of the available monohull boats that I think of that meet the performance rules are heavier than 3500lbs although I see no reason that it cannot be done. That may drive designers more to folding multi's. Haven't had anything like that in the other five design contests WB has run so it should prove interesting.

    One boat that I owned, an S2 Grand Slam 7.9 could do it all but weighed over 4500lbs. The smaller sister at 6.9M should do the job if part of the inside ballast was moved to a bulb on the lifting daggerboard.

    My point is that you are not asking for the impossible.
    Tom L

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    We love "stirring up." Thanks for all your great comments and questions.

    My approach -- if I were an applicant -- would be to view this as "ability to get off a lee shore under sail or other power."

    Don't agonize: create.

    And I'm not being authoritative here; just my interpretation.

    Thanks. I can't WAIT to see your imaginative submissions. I think this is a great challenge. And: It has the scope to bring out the best you can throw at it.

    Carl

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    The rules said "the boat must have... the ability to sail to windward in a gale (34–47 knots)."

    Somehow, "ability to get off a lee shore under sail or other power" is not the same thing.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    I'm all for challenges that inspire creative solutions but surely this is just a case of mistaken wording? If 'sail to windward in a gale' can actually be interpreted as 'bung on a 50hp outboard and blast out of trouble' I would feel pretty aggrieved when I turn up with an exquisitely designed low freeboard, clean rigged, beating machine and lose to a Macgregor 26.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Cramer View Post
    We love "stirring up." Thanks for all your great comments and questions.

    My approach -- if I were an applicant -- would be to view this as "ability to get off a lee shore under sail or other power."

    Don't agonize: create.

    And I'm not being authoritative here; just my interpretation.

    Thanks. I can't WAIT to see your imaginative submissions. I think this is a great challenge. And: It has the scope to bring out the best you can throw at it.

    Carl

  33. #103

    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Out of curiosity, have any of the other commenters here actually attempted to sail to windward in winds over 40 knots?

    The closest I came was when sailing to shelter through the fringes of a hurricane in 1979, in a Wharram Tane. I sailed downwind and then, for a few minutes, sailed on a beam reach to the hurricane hole entrance. I was lucky, there was land fairly close to windward, but I still tore the clew on a double-reefed main.

    I really can't imagine how bad it might have been in big seas.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Yep, see posts 71 and 72.

    Quote Originally Posted by slidercat View Post
    Out of curiosity, have any of the other commenters here actually attempted to sail to windward in winds over 40 knots?

    The closest I came was when sailing to shelter through the fringes of a hurricane in 1979, in a Wharram Tane. I sailed downwind and then, for a few minutes, sailed on a beam reach to the hurricane hole entrance. I was lucky, there was land fairly close to windward, but I still tore the clew on a double-reefed main.

    I really can't imagine how bad it might have been in big seas.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Design Challenge III

    Yes I have Raced to weather in 60 knot gusts 50knts steady on the La Paz race on a Contesa 35 called "Black Magic" out of San Francisco. That was in the 80's and all but 3 boats retired from the race. Survival and good speed was all the quality of the drivers as when punching through wave tops one has to steer to lay the boat back down without a bang lest the mast be out of colum and break. We had the main tear away from its luff tape, storm jib shred and finished the race under a #3. I slept 18 hours at finish.
    I am most interested in the design contest, I think its possible to design a boat that is large enough to tow around instead of an airstream yet can definately perform.
    I think a larger hull form has more inherit stability, and was thinking a hard chined "Snipe type" bottom with a high bow and graceful sheer- yet enough sail power to over come "stickyness" in light air, but will also surf off the wind in good hands. Ketch-with perhaps a small jib on a small bow sprit-with an extendable pole for an asometric spinnaker/genniker.
    A low center of effort-with many sail combos.
    I would like to build this type design-I cant design it myself-so look forward to the results.
    I have more ideas of what I would like-I hope designers will read my wish list.

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