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Thread: The no committments cruiser

  1. #211
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Why do away with the stern? It looks good and serves a porpoise.
    If he ever drinks the brew of 10 tanna leaves, he will become a monster the likes of which the world has never seen



  2. #212
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    My take on a no-commitments cruiser is something simple, seaworthy, comfortable and easy to make

    I would copy this

    http://www.pacificproa.nl/gaia2.html

    Perhaps the masts could be made of wood to save money, possibly the hullform could be refined some more with a more vertical stem and a less cutaway forefoot. Perhaps second hand sails woud be cheap and effective, and save time.

    Plusses of what the builder did here. Simple, plywood construction, standing headroom which means comfort, htere is shoal draught which allows the boat to come straight up to your favourite beach (assuming there is no surf) , being a multihull you can save money and not buy a liferaft if you follow what is written in Chris White's book (his opinion for multis.. argue it with him if u disagree). I assume sawn frames, overall simple, simple, simple. Shoal draught, take it out and store it on a tidal sandbank. Weight unladen is 1.5 tonnes, so that may give an idea as to cost. Each mast is relatively small thus easily handled by one person. More stable and comfortable than a keel boat. An open plan interior that allows occupants to stretch out and relax.

    No complicated centerboards to make, or keels to cast, save time in not having to make them.

    My guess is that a boat like this needs less skill to make than a keel boat (no keel bolts, no heavy keel loads to reinforce and build strongly to compensate against. Majority of weight kept in the single hull, reducing torsional and twisting loads. Loads are above buounacy, thus increasing simplicity, as opposed to a bridgedeck catamaran where the loads have to be transferred through beams.

    It can carry a load of 1.5 tonnes, that is a lot of food and drinking water, no expensive water maker.
    2 hulls means less potential stress in the crossbeams that 3 hulls, or alternatively 2 hulls of same size.
    This boat sailed from Europe to Australia, based on that I assume it is seaworthy (plus is looks seaworthy)

    It would be faster than a monohull and should roll less, assising comfort

    You may not like this, but using logic, this boat I think has to be close to being a winner. Once you are finished with it, sell it for maybe $15K, perhaps is costs $10 to $20K to build. I assume a lot of the cost coming from epoxy and navigation aids.

    Now Injio has a new boat, I wonder what happened to this one? anyone know? I could send him an email but I think he is currently sailing his 70ft proa somewhere.

    Other options, buy a second hand Jim Brown searunner Trimaran. that fits the criteria yes?

  3. #213
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    i met this Proa mad guy, Inigo Wijnen, in Santa Cruz in the North of Tenerife, Canary Islands back in 1993.(?) I remember him because he came alongside a mates boat way too fast and couldnt stop....no harm done though. He said he started to build a small Wharrem cat,and realised it was too small. so he got plans for a larger one,and built just one hull...then joined the two together. He has come along way since then, seems very clever in his hope to get marketing and sponsership to pay for his South Pacific cruise. Im not saying the guy doesnt care about the enviroment,depends if you believe all the stories.....

  4. #214
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    wizbang, did you fiberglass your boat or just give a coat of epoxy? what about the inside?

  5. #215
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Jim Brown tris seem to hold value...go for Piver for cheap, although with no centerboard and a small spade rudder the steering is crap.....I think Jim's Tri still may be for sale.....it's a well built boat.
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
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    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
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  6. #216

  7. #217
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Woodwind has never been sheathed. Just sys 3 resin painted on, then undercoat (epoxy) ,then brushed LP. I was not "up to speed " on sheathing in '83. I would give it 2 layers of dynel if I did it again. Rero-fitting would be counter productive, and not really nessesary, only small, nuisance leaks.Sys 3 resin brushed on all isnside surfaces. 3 coats in bilge.
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 09-19-2010 at 10:42 AM.

  8. #218
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Peter....good link. Yachting Monthly publish (or used to) plans for a 27ft Dory just like Eric the Red, with a gaff ketch rig.....i even had a copy of the prints somewhere. This will also make a good GTFO boat!

  9. #219
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser


  10. #220

    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    yeah, thats about as cheap as it can be, & functional

  11. #221

    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Did John Welsford ever reveal his boat design for this customer and situation? It would be interesting to know what he ended up creating.

  12. #222
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Edit: Didn't realize how old this thread was when I replied to it. Text removed.

  13. #223
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Boy , memories flooding back of Sundowner with this thread.

  14. #224
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Good read and just drifted through wondering when it was bought up to date. A few departed posters or banned.

  15. #225
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Consider Bolger's Red Zinger mini-yawl (page 333 in Boats with an Open Mind).
    It is plywood, light, spacious for one (but better with 2 bunks), 26 feet long and 8 wide.
    It has a large centered centerboard, but no apparent ballast.
    It is pushed by a small outboard.

  16. #226
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    I'm leaving Washington today, back to Antigua where Woodwind been hibernating for two n a half years...we'll see what kinna commitment I need to commit to.
    crikey she jus turn 39.

  17. #227
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by blueridgebuilder View Post
    Did John Welsford ever reveal his boat design for this customer and situation? It would be interesting to know what he ended up creating.
    The customer was a hypothetical one, the original post was to stimulate some discussion on designs and direction. Its a not uncommon thing for a person in early middle age to find themselves without much in the way of commitments and very dissatisfied with life, wanting to "escape".
    I've since drawn several proposals for people, three of which have gone on to full plans and two to builds. Both of those would be well outside the bounds of the original post though, on both time and cost but they were interesting nonetheless.
    Today, to fill that brief, I'd be thinking along the lines of a boat built of CCA treated exterior grade construction plywood pram bowed single masted junk rigged shoal draft boat of around 24 to 26 ft, glued with polyurethane construction glue, framed in lumberyard pine, painted with polyurethane paving paint, and the sail stitched up from awning cloth.
    Raised deck with a doghouse to give standing room in the after end of the cabin, and at that length of boat with that rig there would be enough room on her lowered foredeck forward of the mast to carry a small dinghy.
    She'd have a second hand 10 hp outboard motor, several solar panels and the big battery bank would serve as part of her ballast.
    A boat like that should last 20 years given some attention to maintenance, and our heroine or hero being in their 50s would be about ready to move back ashore when the boat had hit the end of its life.

    Annie Hill of Voyaging on a small income fame has a boat not dissimilar to this brief, and I've been aboard "Fanshi" a few times so have a good feeling for what is possible. She though has built to a much higher standard than I predicate, with a lot more labour, but well done Annie, she has a very comfortable little home that suits her very well.

    My brief is for someone who has less funding, less time and more urgency so every shortcut possible would be taken.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  18. #228
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    Boy , memories flooding back of Sundowner with this thread.
    That was a really great thing to be involved with, even with the sad ending.

    Charlie died about three years ago, I still miss him.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  19. #229
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Honestly, it's amazing what's possible; I suspect most of us would shudder in terror at the idea of going to sea in the average sea-going boat from 200 years ago.

    John Voss's "Tilikum" is one of my favorite examples of this.

    Seeing what's going on in the world today, were I younger and unmarried, methinks I'd be inclined to build your lumber-yard pine and awning cloth cruiser, John. Seems a better life than a dead-end 9-to-5 and skyrocketing interest rates.

  20. #230
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by MakoShark View Post
    Honestly, it's amazing what's possible; I suspect most of us would shudder in terror at the idea of going to sea in the average sea-going boat from 200 years ago.

    John Voss's "Tilikum" is one of my favorite examples of this.

    Seeing what's going on in the world today, were I younger and unmarried, methinks I'd be inclined to build your lumber-yard pine and awning cloth cruiser, John. Seems a better life than a dead-end 9-to-5 and skyrocketing interest rates.
    Much of the magazine content that drives peoples perception is driven by advertisers who want all of us to think that we need more this, that and the other thing, they pay for the ads so they control the content and that content tells everyone that to go cruising we need 40 ft plus, we need a high tech rig with roll away fully battened main, a suite of electronics that cost more than the total budget needed to build the boat in the OP, an airconditioned factory in which to build and a crew of experts to do that, the list goes on, I'm sure you can add to it.
    They dont tell you what you can actually do without, there are many examples from the past which show that building from salvage, on the beach or in a vacant lot, with a simple boat with a simple rig can be successful.
    South Seas Vagabonds is still good reading.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  21. #231
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Loke Slocum rebuilding SPRAY in an apple orchard. Although I have to admit that at 74, were I to go to sea, I'd like some of the amenities

  22. #232
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Much of the magazine content that drives peoples perception is driven by advertisers who want all of us to think that we need more this, that and the other thing, they pay for the ads so they control the content and that content tells everyone that to go cruising we need 40 ft plus, we need a high tech rig with roll away fully battened main, a suite of electronics that cost more than the total budget needed to build the boat in the OP, an airconditioned factory in which to build and a crew of experts to do that, the list goes on, I'm sure you can add to it.
    They dont tell you what you can actually do without, there are many examples from the past which show that building from salvage, on the beach or in a vacant lot, with a simple boat with a simple rig can be successful.
    South Seas Vagabonds is still good reading.

    John Welsford
    All very true. Keep at it, John.
    Back in the 60's , anything over 25ft was a 'Good Boat' and 30ft was classy. Now, 'starter boats' are mid 30s, if one believes the mags... also, marinas are the 'only' place one should keep a boat. With a bit of effort, a mooring is practical, even lay it yourself. The dinghy trip to and from is part of the fun.
    My father designed ply boats back in the 50s & 60s, many built built by first timers, though lots where built in the factory. All single chine sloops. One of the 20ft 4 berth 'Cruiser Racers' won the Cinq Ports cross channel race outright. Conditions were just right and he planed most of the way, beating the class 1 Ocean racers.
    The reception commitee didn't think he was in the race, as they expected the big guys, so no gun. Got sorted out.
    Mind you, his wife never sailed again...
    A2
    Last edited by Andrew2; 11-29-2022 at 12:02 PM.

  23. #233
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    Loke Slocum rebuilding SPRAY in an apple orchard. Although I have to admit that at 74, were I to go to sea, I'd like some of the amenities
    At 75, I am about to launch a little cat yawl. Derived from a bolger design. Mainly, because I am getting less agile for a small unballasted faering. Small cabin with space for a potty and cooking. Decent berths and sitting headroom. That's enough.

    Joshua Slocom was an astute guy. After his 'Voyage of the Liberdade' he realised that a RTW trip would be a real earner. And it was.

  24. #234
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    What a great thread! Has anyone changed their minds since they originally posted their answers?

    What about building a Muscadet?

    Muscadet1.jpg

    - Iconic if somewhat ugly design
    - Plywood on frame, so a fairly easy build for our inexperienced builder
    muscadet2.jpg

    - Very seaworthy - they were used extensively in the early mini transat editions.
    Jean-Luc Van Den Heede sailed one in the 1977 edition.
    - The class is actively raced in France so it is easy to find good condition second hand sails. For example this ad:

    GV all purpose 2019 400€
    Génois all purpose 2019 300€
    Spi bleue all purpose 2021 ( 3 sorties comme neuf ) 900€

    Ou le tout pour 1300€
    Source:
    https://www.apmuscadet.com/garde-rob...se-f82577.html

    - If the boat is built to class rules it will have some resale value.
    - Can be used with legs

    - It is a French boat - so romance is possible
    Attached Images Attached Images

  25. #235
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    For me the most important thing is a good behavior in front of the waves.

    And I am convinced that there are two ways to achieve it: (A) a way that we could rightly call "classic": T. Harrison Butler ... and (B) a way that we could call "modern".

    On this second path, my point of view is to summarize what was learned in the Forge of the Mini Transat (1979-1989: Muscadet, American Express, Coco ...) before this race lost its original course.

    The essential issue is (1) good Hull Attitude 'bow/nose up' And (2) good directional control:

    a) Center of Gravity aft of the Center of Flotation, which is where the Pitch axis passes.
    b) Center of Gravity 2-3% LWL aft of CB to account for the Pull of Sails that have a large lever arm.

    c) A well-filled bow that resists sinking from a hydrostatic point of view, in other words: a gigantic Longitudinal Metacentric Height, for example equal to 3 (!!!) x LWL, in other words that with 1 degree bow down the Center of Bouyancy (CB) moves 5% (!) LWL

    d) A Bow and Carene/Hull producing HydroDynamic Lift

    e) Neutralized centerboard: Hydrodynamic center of the centerboard under the center of gravity of the sailboat
    f) Two Rudders

  26. #236
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser



    36:55-40:00

    This is for me depressing, it affects me, a complete HydroDynamic disaster.
    Last edited by Juan; 12-20-2022 at 07:27 AM.

  27. #237
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    So we have the following paradox: old sailing boats of 6 meters in length and supposedly heavy (300 D/L) Gliding-Surfing wonderfully in a controlled manner reaching top speeds of 20 knots (which is four (!!!) times "Froude 0.35") ... and supposedly modern sailing boats tripping over the Hull.

  28. #238
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Principles Of Yacht Design

    https://books.google.es/books/about/...on&redir_esc=y

    "Principles of Yacht Design has established itself as the standard book on the subject for practising designers, naval architecture students, discerning boat owners as well as the boatbuilding industry as a whole."

    And the clear demonstration that sailboat designers make good necromancers ...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy

    ... And those who discussed the "phlogiston"

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory

  29. #239
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser



    "Baluchon" around the World

    A rectangular sailboat, a "Scow", is surely the most honest and reasonable sailboat for all those who neither want to study nor calculate the force of water and wind nor follow the classical way.

  30. #240
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Juan, I've designed two Mini Transats, both were built by their owners, have a string of high placings to those boats credit, and I have to say I dont understand what your original post is saying at all, it seems full of contradictions.

    Please explain more.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  31. #241
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    What contradiction (?)

    https://www.classglobe580.com/

    This small sailboat is a typical HydroDynamic Disaster:

    (1) the Force of the wind
    (2) the Force of the Earth (Center of Gravity perhaps half a meter in front of the Center of Flotation) and
    (3) the Force of the sea (the wave that arrives at the stern) sink the bow, sink a thin bow ...

    a bow that produces Lateral Force and drives the Munk's Moments crazy, and is uncontrollable

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Munk

    And to top it all off, the Center of Gravity of the yacht is behind the HydroDynamic center of the Keel/daggerboard.

    Evidently the boy (an Englishman of contained emotional expression) says "freaking frustrating" underlining the first "f" for not saying "fxxxxx frustrating" (and the image and the sound are cut off): neither the windvane steering, nor the electric-electronic pilot, nor the helmsman can control the sailboat.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Harrison_Butler

    We don't know if Thomas Harrison Butler is laughing or crying.
    Last edited by Juan; 12-21-2022 at 04:26 AM.

  32. #242
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Juan,

    Get this months Jan/ Feb 2023 Watercraft magazine for Gartside's Christmas fireside reading...and yes its even plywood and chined. There's your boat for buggin out. Find your karma. Perhaps build a model of it to occupy yourself over the winter.

    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 12-21-2022 at 05:48 AM.

  33. #243
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    It's not that complicated

    It's not that complicated:

    (1) calculate (or find with cardboard and a ruler or a razor) where the Center of Flotation is with the stern-waved-by-a-big-wave

    (2) There ... There (near the center of Flotation) you have to place the Center of Buoyancy

    (3) the Center of Gravity a little (2% LWL) behind the Center of Buoyancy ... and ...

    (4) the HydroDynamic Center of the Keel/centerboard below the center of gravity of the sailboat, because it is a sailboat to cross an ocean not to turn with quick agility in a summer regatta.

    ...

  34. #244
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Juan I dunno what yer talkin about

  35. #245
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    Default Re: The no committments cruiser

    Quote Originally Posted by Juan View Post
    It's not that complicated

    It's not that complicated:

    (1) calculate (or find with cardboard and a ruler or a razor) where the Center of Flotation is with the stern-waved-by-a-big-wave

    (2) There ... There (near the center of Flotation) you have to place the Center of Buoyancy

    (3) the Center of Gravity a little (2% LWL) behind the Center of Buoyancy ... and ...

    (4) the HydroDynamic Center of the Keel/centerboard below the center of gravity of the sailboat, because it is a sailboat to cross an ocean not to turn with quick agility in a summer regatta.

    ...
    I still dont get what you are trying to convey, I do this design work for a living and used to teach marine design at university so do have some understanding of the subject.
    In my language, much of what you are saying is contradictory.

    I think that I"ll just leave you to it, its like we're speaking different languages.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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